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Forget Better Ai - We Need Better Dumb Enemies


notionphil
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UPDATE - Daniel B just addressed the concept of improved enemy mechanics and survivability in Devstream 30, in relation to this thread. Everyone seemed to understand the core issue of complex AI's not being visible due to short enemy lifespans, caused by massive player power.

 

However, he proposed no solutions, and his example of a enemy mechanic was the Prosecutors RNG defense which has nothing at all to do with player skill.

 

This is not a good sign. However, the exciting new enemies and offensive mechanics being added did look like they would improve the attack capabilities of enemies, and challenge.

 

Will that challenge be skill-based avoidable? I didn't see a lot of telegraphs but I saw a ton of shield bypassing poison clouds.

 

What was missed was that pressing 4 will still kill everything they are working so hard on.

 

 

 

 

I think I've seen one too many "We need better AI" posts on the Forums. Creating "better AI" will do nothing besides waste DE's time, and make our crewmen hesitate 0.1 seconds less before getting riddled with bullets from a Soma.

 

At its core, AI posts are generally about making combat more engaging and challenging...but tend to miss the entire point. Our enemies are fodder because they have no tools - not because they are dumb.

 

OK Smart Guy, You Try Being a Crewman

 

Imagine for a second that you were physically controlling a Corpus Crewman, on a routine patrol. A door opens at the end of the hallway and you see 4 Tenno.

 

.25 seconds later, a gleaming bolt from a Boltor Prime pierces your nearby ally's head. A Penta grenade lands unexploded at your feet. ticking away. You've been Primed to explode on a molecular level by Nova, slowing you by 75% - and making your meager flesh even more likely to give way.

 

And, unbeknownst to you...an invisible Ash is rapidly sliding your way gripping an Orthos Prime.

 

Question: If you were controlling that Corpus Crewman, what would you do?

 

Answer: Die.

 

AI has nothing to do with 99% of our enemies' deaths. Having no viable options is why they die helplessly.

 

Don't Bring a Prova to a Soma Fight

 

All that Crewman can do is run away, take cover, melee, roll, shoot, grenade and hit the alarm. That's ALL he can do. In fact that's all nearly every enemy in Warframe can do. Note how none of those things will help him.

 

He and nearly 90% of all enemies have no ability that will prevent their sudden imminent death the mere millisecond a Tenno wills them out of existence.

 

WTFOMGBBQ (to quote Steve) Why Would DE make the enemies so pointless!?!?

 

Because we're the player, we are 'supposed' to win. Tenno are Warrior Deities! Invoking our wrath on mobs of helpless fodder is a large portion of why WF is fun.

 

Unfortunately, it's also a large portion of why WF is monotonous. You cannot be a victor without a challenge. To truly feel like a warrior deity, one must occasionally have their might tested - and overcome by pure skill or strength of will.

 

And that situation simply doesn't exist in Warframe. The closest we can get is artificial unlimited scaling. *Yawn* for so many reasons, I won't even list them. We don't need all enemies to be powerful. We just need occasional challenges or situations which make us feel "tested" so we can be victorious.

 

Forget Intelligence. Dumb is more reliable.

 

All of the "AI" in the world won't protect a Lancer from a Soma. You know what will? A soma-proof helmet, with a tiiiiny weak spot to keep you on your toes.

 

The Grineer Shield Lancer was one of the best designed enemies in the game (at least before half of our weapons became AoE and punchthrough). Why? Because he was the one enemy in the game that unloading a clip from your [insert weapon name] didn't kill.

 

You actually had to do...something...anything different, to kill him. A power. A jumpkick. Even..gasp...aim at his head! This is what we need. Sure, the new enemy contest winners are incredible and exciting. But if they can be defeated by a burst from your [insert weapon here] - they won't do a SINGLE THING to make you feel more like a warrior deity than you do now.

 

Dumb but Fair. Unfair is never fun.

 

Enemies don't need player-agency removing stunlocks and teleports. They don't need invulnerability phases or randomized elemental weaknesses. All they need are simple and FAIR tools to evade our powers and attacks - and to give us a slight challenge to overcome when we encounter some of them.

 

Some ideas for Dumb (aka easy to execute) abilities. Note, not all enemies would have 'tools'. Some would still be 100% fodder.

 

  • Grineer Scorpions could parry our bullets...unless they have thrown their spear

     

  • Grineer Bombards could have higher damage reduction from the front, .but shooting their ogris could cause an explosion disarming and likely killing them.

     

  • Corpus tech drones could provide an uber-quick-regenerating shield that effects everyone BUT themselves

     

  • Infested Ancients Healers could revive themselves from death...unless you hit their dead body with a finisher

     

  • Corpus Elites could have fast regenerating shields making them nearly invincible, but shooting their helmet off could disable it.

     

  • Corpus techs could repair destroyed Moas within range of his 'aura'.

     

  • Infested Leapers (and other light mobs) should dive out of range of explosive/slow moving weaponry (often, towards the player)

     

  • Grineer Ballistas should be granted partial cloaking when not shooting.

     

  • Railgun Moas could deploy a Volt like shield

     

    etc etc...can think of more as needed, or fix these.

 

Press 4 to..."WTF? Crap I died"

 

I said it before, and I'll say it again :P

 

Every faction needs at least one variant of an Elite mob which can either absorb or protect its allies from our ubers and CC. You should see these variants starting in lv 20 or so with a 1% chance of spawning. At level 40 you'd be seeing one every minute or so

 

No need for new complex enemies. Just a simple reskin, with a red tint/name etc. Like an eximus but...uhm...not fodder.

 

A simple example of this:

 

Infested Ancient Guardian (elite ancient healer variant): Whenever any AoE ability hits the Guardian, he pulses a red aura which revives all his allies within it as shadows (they give no XP and don't count towards exterm). He is personally invulnerable to AoE powers (but not direct damage powers).

 

Conclusion (finally:D)

 

The game doesn't have to BE balanced. It just has to FEEL balanced. Enemies don't have to BE intelligent, they just have to FEEL clever. We just need a hint of challenge to feel skillful. Giving some enemies from each faction a few simple tools to survive against the Tenno is enough to truly improve how visceral and dynamic Warframe's combat feels.

 

Selected Thread Feedback and Feelings on Warfame's Combat 

 

emphasis added and +1s redacted (keep em coming pls! but this area is just for ideas)

 

PS - Yes, I'm all for the fixing of AI bugs like the "headless chicken circle dance" the "in-and-out of cover shuffle" and the "ha! you can't see me I'm behind this pebble" issue. Those are bugs, and should be addressed, but honestly don't happen in a majority of enemy interactions...so those alone won't improve combat much - considering the average mobs lifespan is probably less than 1 second after being noticed by a Tenno.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

WOW

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The Eximi are a good place to start, and have a lot of potential to make combat more dynamic. Please feel free to link your thread here.

I am happy to say that so far, I have extensively modified two Eximus types and created a new one for now. 

 

If you people like to see the current progress of the Eximus Overhaul Project and give any comments for improvements, feel free to do so in the link below: 

 

Link: 

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/236973-some-suggestions-to-make-gameplay-more-engagingrewarding-gas-eximus-radial-disarm-modification/ (see EDIT 9)

Edited by Renegade343
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I main a disarm Loki.

Not invisibility.

 

My Invisibility last only either 5 seconds (if I go 555 shields / 213 heatlh) or 10 seconds (225 shields / 213 health). 

I kill myself more often with the angstrum/penta/ogris/stug than my enemies actually killing me.

 

And before alerts were "rework" (bah it was nerfed) I solo level 60+ Grineer defense alerts. Where it can go as high as level 68 during the initial release of Damage 2.0. And you cannot have long invisibility because Napalms will nearly 2 shot the cryo back then.

 

And I consider my skill level isn't anywhere good as some to of the other MR14 to MR16.

 

 

Grineer have by far the most knock downs, but barring the scorpion and Heavy (don't go near them duh), most are highly telegraphed.

Shield lancers have their obvious charges,. And of course rollers with their leaps.

 

In fact, I have more issues with pre-nerf Eviserators (they were nerfed twice btw once in damage 1.0 and another in 2.0) than any form of knock down.

 

Jackal, old Hyena and Phorid for example. All of them do have 1 shot kill type attacks. But against anyone with a clue, the players can avoid them harmlessly. In fact for Jackal, it did not stop players from farming the crap out of it for Rhino.

 

Now the only real Hyena that is a threat is the energy drain one. The rest are just joke.

Rhino does it even easier since 1 stomp disables them for epic lulz.

 

 

But I have to make it clear. While I do support 1 shot attacks, they should be telegraphed.

So if you choose to stand under other Jackal's air burst or tank 2 of old Hyena's rockets to the face, it is your own fault

 

So do give us 1 shot attacks, but make it telegraphed. So we  have ample time to dodge or move.

It won't be anything different from what you all have done before.

 

Just gotta move a little way out.

Okay, so exactly how do you dodge out of the way when surrounded by, say, 8 MOA all in your face, while the 9th MOA rains down knockdown/massive damage rockets on you?  Telegraphing is fine so long as you (a) have the ability to see it being telegraphed on the one guy half hidden behind cover who wandered in from the next tile, and (b) actually have the space to perform some kind of evasive maneuver.

 

I've played games that have auto-stunlock features in the past.

I don't play them anymore.

 

And Radial Disarm is pretty useless when the enemy is attacking you from outside of your disarm distance. I'm assuming that the Rocket MOA will be able to do this.  I'm actually figuring it will be like a combination of the rocket Grenier (can't remember what it's called) and the shield lancer.  Invul + Knockdown + massive damage.  In short, not something I think I will find a fun adversary. I'm further assuming it will be just about unkillable (possibly baring #4 use) when it fires, preventing you from stopping it by killing it before it unloads on you.  Maybe I'm wrong, but right now I more get the feeling they are trying to create "auto-kill" enemies or ones that will make you pretty much powerless to prevent all of the other mobs from killing you.

 

If I die because I charged into a room like a moron, I'm okay with that.  If I die because I didn't jump or dodge at a telegraphed move on something I could see I'm fine with that.  If I get "bleed damaged to death" or "Toxic Aured to Death" while trapped by a twenty man mob or stunlocked to death.. this I'm not so okay with.

 

Edit:

 

Of course, I'm also a fan of accuracy and skill over Run-&-Gun, and the design team in teh Devstream pretty much said they aren't going to implement anything that rewards stealth and skill during the last broadcast.

Edited by Viverim
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Improvements to the AI and HUD would be a good start for delivering information about special enemy types and "telegraphed" attacks.

 

I mentioned it a few days ago, but the thread died. Augmented Reality HUD elements would make the game look better and shift the challenge emphasis to player awareness instead of enemy "gotchas."

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Improvements to the AI and HUD would be a good start for delivering information about special enemy types and "telegraphed" attacks.

 

I mentioned it a few days ago, but the thread died. Augmented Reality HUD elements would make the game look better and shift the challenge emphasis to player awareness instead of enemy "gotchas."

 

I meant to comment on that augmented reality HUD warning system for about-to-happen things like boss special attacks and incoming AOE..

 

I love the idea.  That would revolutionize the gameplay.  Adding a window of damage ignore into the roll on top, and expanding evasive moves and parkour along side that augmented reality idea could give players actual mitigation with the rest of the game AS IS.

 

Otherwise, I'm digesting all of the amazing ideas and feedback in this thread and the big disappointment thread, I wish I had more to offer!

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Not to be rude, but wouldn't they need AI to use such tools?

 

But seriously, really nice post. I kind of want a bullet sponge enemy that defends his allies. Like, an enemy that gives allies huge damage resist until he is killed, so you have to focus him down first. But then his allies get close to him, and you have to find a blind spot to attack or something similar.

 

Hopefully, some of the ideas noted on this topic will get shipped into the game.

 

Please let these get into the game...

Edited by Gildemesh
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Just recycle our ability to wallrun to the Runners and Chargers, then set a stamina bar and drain rate while wall-running for them. 

 

Should be a somewhat simple mechanism to code, as most, if not all, of the code is there (wall-running, draining and recharging stamina bar [can make this from modifying the code for energy usage and regeneration from the Sceptres]). 

 

The new thing they need to code is probably making the Runners and Chargers detect walls and execute a wall-run (of course, it would be best if the Runners and Chargers use them to a smart degree by detecting whether the direct, grounded path towards a target is clogged with other entities, and thus decide whether to wall-run). 

 

My thinking is that the wallrunning could be similar to that of kubrows, which is being worked on already

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Okay, so exactly how do you dodge out of the way when surrounded by, say, 8 MOA all in your face, while the 9th MOA rains down knockdown/massive damage rockets on you?  Telegraphing is fine so long as you (a) have the ability to see it being telegraphed on the one guy half hidden behind cover who wandered in from the next tile, and (b) actually have the space to perform some kind of evasive maneuver.

 

I've played games that have auto-stunlock features in the past.

I don't play them anymore.

 

And Radial Disarm is pretty useless when the enemy is attacking you from outside of your disarm distance. I'm assuming that the Rocket MOA will be able to do this.  I'm actually figuring it will be like a combination of the rocket Grenier (can't remember what it's called) and the shield lancer.  Invul + Knockdown + massive damage.  In short, not something I think I will find a fun adversary. I'm further assuming it will be just about unkillable (possibly baring #4 use) when it fires, preventing you from stopping it by killing it before it unloads on you.  Maybe I'm wrong, but right now I more get the feeling they are trying to create "auto-kill" enemies or ones that will make you pretty much powerless to prevent all of the other mobs from killing you.

 

If I die because I charged into a room like a moron, I'm okay with that.  If I die because I didn't jump or dodge at a telegraphed move on something I could see I'm fine with that.  If I get "bleed damaged to death" or "Toxic Aured to Death" while trapped by a twenty man mob or stunlocked to death.. this I'm not so okay with.

 

Edit:

 

Of course, I'm also a fan of accuracy and skill over Run-&-Gun, and the design team in teh Devstream pretty much said they aren't going to implement anything that rewards stealth and skill during the last broadcast.

 

Radial Disarm works if you can disarm at 50 meters.

 

Too bad there are no more arcane swindles :)

And of course if you got Grineer galleon defense, this more than covers the entire room.

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Nicely done, OP. Good points on identifying problems as well as providing some great solutions instead of just complaining. You're so right about pretty much everything being fodder because of how much damage tenno can do. We need those types of enemies you spoke of. We need those "oh S#&$, this isn't working" moments. Yes the new enemies look cool, but you made a good point about them as well being just another "press 4" and move on. Sure we've got endless defense. Yes we have nightmare mode.....but this is really just artificial difficulty through a self-inflicted handicap. I hope they've read this post and continue to follow it. If they can accomplish half of what you've suggested, this game, that I've already put about 1500 hours into will get 1500 more, and with much joy and renewed hope for an epic game with endless replayability.

One last point I want to make, and maybe a very large number of people will strongly disagree, but they need to stop being so worried about scaling and balancing everything for solo players. Stop catering to the lowest common denominator. At the very least give me the option to turn off solo scaling. If I die because I actually needed three other people to finish the mission then it means either I chose the wrong loadout OR it means I need to raise the bar and get better. Bring it on.

Edited by Malakai111
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There is no enemy aura that is impossible to avoid including the fire... run...jump off of a wall or two. Aim...fire. Rinse and repeat

I disagree, that exists that spawned underneath you, or around the corner out of sight seems unavoidable mostly.

Edited by KvotheTheArcane1
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You know what's funny? They removed the one thing that made Corpus more difficult a while back. I remember when headshots did virtually nothing, and you had to take body shots instead. While it wasn't a huge difference, it meant that the players' normal instincts, to shoot at the head, were not the best plan. 

 

Here's a couple more ideas: 

Give the Corpus' helmets way more hit points, so that it's not trivial to pop them off.

Make Napalms heavily armoured everywhere (90+% damage reduction) except a heat sink/vent on their back.

Ancient Disruptors create 'ghost' enemies when close to a player, which act just like regular enemies, but they don't deal damage, and players not close to the ancient don't see them, making it impossible for the affected player to know which enemies to target (aside from the ancient).

Replace Oxium Ospreys' suicide divebomb with a smaller version of Raptor's missiles, and maybe give them or another osprey Raptor's guarding mechanic.

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One last point I want to make, and maybe a very large number of people will strongly disagree, but they need to stop being so worried about scaling and balancing everything for solo players. Stop catering to the lowest common denominator. At the very least give me the option to turn off solo scaling. If I die because I actually needed three other people to finish the mission then it means either I chose the wrong loadout OR it means I need to raise the bar and get better. Bring it on.

I'm one of the "disagree" people.  Just gettting that out there.

 

In my opinion, your play selector for Private, Group, Solo should change how the mechanics work.  You can have it balanced for Solo and balanced for Group, making what mode you are in tell the program how to operate.  Another point to think about is this; not everyone has the super-ubre mods and weapons.  Making a game which REQUIRES you to have X loadout on frames A, B, or C, with weapon D and E, with your weapons loaded out with G, H, or I isn't friendly for new gamers or casual gamers who don't have the time/option to grind.  Remember, the game is also out for PS4.  In my opinion you are going to get fewer hard-core gamers on console, and if you want a healthy game there, you have to think about that.

 

If you make your enemies / Warframes / Mods based on the ideal of "balanced on the best, most ubre gear" then only those who already have those frames /  mods will stay with the game.

 

in other words, making enemies with too many gimics and invulnerable tricks discourages people from joining the game.  Better enemies = good.  Enemies that have massive levels of stunlock, damage bypass (direct damage to shields), or are completely invulnerable to 90% of your weapon options = not so good.

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You know what's funny? They removed the one thing that made Corpus more difficult a while back. I remember when headshots did virtually nothing, and you had to take body shots instead. While it wasn't a huge difference, it meant that the players' normal instincts, to shoot at the head, were not the best plan.

I may be wrong on this, but the reason for getting rid of the invulnerable helmet mechanic was because it made the "Headshot" side mission next to impossible to attain.  Personally I had at first thought that you could still crit if you hit them in the eye-slot, but after testing thise theory it turned out to be false.

 

I'd be all for making Corpus helmets toughter than normal again, but only if you put another crit zone on their bodies somewhere.  If you eliminate targetable crits on Corpus you are seriously reducing the utility of any sniper type weapon for half of the currently available zones (4 bows, 3 sinper rifles and, if you include them, Grinlock and Marelock).

 

But, again, I think aim and patience should be rewarded, not ignored.

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Nicely done, OP. Good points on identifying problems as well as providing some great solutions instead of just complaining. You're so right about pretty much everything being fodder because of how much damage tenno can do. We need those types of enemies you spoke of. We need those "oh S#&$, this isn't working" moments. Yes the new enemies look cool, but you made a good point about them as well being just another "press 4" and move on. Sure we've got endless defense. Yes we have nightmare mode.....but this is really just artificial difficulty through a self-inflicted handicap. I hope they've read this post and continue to follow it. If they can accomplish half of what you've suggested, this game, that I've already put about 1500 hours into will get 1500 more, and with much joy and renewed hope for an epic game with endless replayability.

One last point I want to make, and maybe a very large number of people will strongly disagree, but they need to stop being so worried about scaling and balancing everything for solo players. Stop catering to the lowest common denominator. At the very least give me the option to turn off solo scaling. If I die because I actually needed three other people to finish the mission then it means either I chose the wrong loadout OR it means I need to raise the bar and get better. Bring it on.

Here here! 3 cheers for Malakai111!!! 

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Another guy followed up on this - https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/243355-suggestion-revolutionary-ai-not-that-hard/

 

Summary: Instead of each individual soldier thinking, just have them all be put at preset locations in RNG-based preset formations that can easily be worked around via tactics, meanwhile making the enemy feel smarter than blades of grass waiting to be cut by the Tenno Lawnmower.

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I'm one of the "disagree" people.  Just gettting that out there.

 

In my opinion, your play selector for Private, Group, Solo should change how the mechanics work.  You can have it balanced for Solo and balanced for Group, making what mode you are in tell the program how to operate.  Another point to think about is this; not everyone has the super-ubre mods and weapons.  Making a game which REQUIRES you to have X loadout on frames A, B, or C, with weapon D and E, with your weapons loaded out with G, H, or I isn't friendly for new gamers or casual gamers who don't have the time/option to grind.  Remember, the game is also out for PS4.  In my opinion you are going to get fewer hard-core gamers on console, and if you want a healthy game there, you have to think about that.

 

If you make your enemies / Warframes / Mods based on the ideal of "balanced on the best, most ubre gear" then only those who already have those frames /  mods will stay with the game.

 

in other words, making enemies with too many gimics and invulnerable tricks discourages people from joining the game.  Better enemies = good.  Enemies that have massive levels of stunlock, damage bypass (direct damage to shields), or are completely invulnerable to 90% of your weapon options = not so good.

I respect your opinion but must disagree with it outside of the group/solo balancing but even that I don't fully agree with. Part of the appeal IS getting stronger..hunting/grinding until you have become powerful enough to fight harder enemies. If someone want to start out uber then maybe they should reconsider. There is every oppurtunity available to players now to improve and with trade chat the excuses get even less potent. The awesomest F2P game ever is now completely F2P so all mods/parts are obtainable through trade. Purchase not necessary just appreciated. 

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You know what's funny? They removed the one thing that made Corpus more difficult a while back. I remember when headshots did virtually nothing, and you had to take body shots instead. While it wasn't a huge difference, it meant that the players' normal instincts, to shoot at the head, were not the best plan. 

People tend to get over their headshot=weakness state of mind quickly. No one even bothers to aim at the Corpus Crewman's heads anyway

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this is definitely part of the answer - but our Enemies do still need AI touchups all over the place. less freezing and doing stupid stuff. less Electric Slide all over cover because the Enemy can't decide if he wants to take cover here, there, or just keep walking.

less running in circles.

 

Et Cetera. those things help them get killed faster too.

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I respect your opinion but must disagree with it outside of the group/solo balancing but even that I don't fully agree with. Part of the appeal IS getting stronger..hunting/grinding until you have become powerful enough to fight harder enemies. If someone want to start out uber then maybe they should reconsider. There is every oppurtunity available to players now to improve and with trade chat the excuses get even less potent. The awesomest F2P game ever is now completely F2P so all mods/parts are obtainable through trade. Purchase not necessary just appreciated. 

 

I'm not saying people shouldn't get stronger.  I am, however, saying that if the enemies are BASED on requiring someone to have fully leveled nightmare mods, then new people, who have not yet had a chance to get any mods, will never be able to progress.  It drives new people away. 

 

On the converse side, you also should expect some level of Mod progress as you get further out into the solar system, so basing the enemies on no mods or undeveloped mods doesn't work either.  It's very tricky to do in the current system, because Mod drops are totally random, so it's hard for developers to know who will have what.  (Example: I still have yet to get a mod that will buff my power duration, which according to many of the YouTube videos I have seen appears to be one of those "professional must have" mods.)

 

Of course if it were easy everything would already be balanced and we wouldn't be having our current conversation.

 

Again, I think more and better mechanics would be interesting, but I am no fan of the "zerg swarm" tactics we currently have, so making more tricky bad guys is a move in a good direction, but only if you also limit how many enemies will swarm over you at a time.  (Rocket MOA stun knockdown + 8 rapid firing MOA ---who NEVER RUN OUT OF AMMO---  =/= fun)

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The problem with the AI isn't the individual AI, it's the 'game Master AI'.  If enemies would spawn in behind you intelligently and flank, or come down from areas above you down onto your head, they'd be pretty effective, at least until people got used to that behavior.

 

Artificial means of making them invulnerable to certain tactics will only work so long.  To continue to make things interesting, DE either has to continue providing new content, or there has to be some sort of emergent gameplay where the enemies continue to adjust their tactics, i.e. learn from the way players are playing against them.  Otherwise I'll just look at the enemy, do a jump-flip over their head and shoot them in the back (or through their shield).

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The problem with the AI isn't the individual AI, it's the 'game Master AI'.  If enemies would spawn in behind you intelligently and flank, or come down from areas above you down onto your head, they'd be pretty effective, at least until people got used to that behavior.

You're wrong. Game Master AI coordinating enemies would make for better tactics overall. It would be harder than each unit acting separately, albeit, less realistic if this were real life.

Edited by PeripheralVisionary
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