Forget Better Ai - We Need Better Dumb Enemies

[grillv20]

bumping this thread

[nekrojiji]

I'm saying this for a long time ... maybe, because you put it in so many words, someone will notice... 

[SirAuron]

I think I've seen one too many "We need better AI" posts on the Forums. Creating "better AI" will do nothing besides waste DE's time, and make our crewmen hesitate 0.1 seconds less before getting riddled with bullets from a Soma.

 

At its core, AI posts are generally about making combat more engaging and challenging...but tend to miss the entire point. Our enemies are fodder because they have no tools - not because they are dumb.

 

OK Smart Guy, You Try Being a Crewman

 

Imagine for a second that you were physically controlling a Corpus Crewman, on a routine patrol. A door opens at the end of the hallway and you see 4 Tenno.

 

.25 seconds later, a gleaming bolt from a Boltor Prime pierces your nearby ally's head. A Penta grenade lands unexploded at your feet. ticking away. You've been Primed to explode on a molecular level by Nova, slowing you by 75% - and making your meager flesh even more likely to give way.

 

And, unbeknownst to you...an invisible Ash is rapidly sliding your way gripping an Orthos Prime.

 

Question: If you were controlling that Corpus Crewman, what would you do?

 

Answer: Die.

 

AI has nothing to do with 99% of our enemies' deaths. Having no viable options is why they die helplessly.

Well, 99% deaths are not from surprise attacks so if you knew the enemy approaches, you would get into position, toss grenades, roll often, etc. or sidestep often. Enough Corpus taking strategic steps can hinder one of the Tenno, making another heal him of course you are powerless to whichever "4" he/she uses before healing, but at least you made one of the Tenno squirm and if that person does not use a 4 skill then he's all yours if he remains vulnerable taking em down one by one and that is what a smart Ai would do in a situation other than the one you mentioned.

 

So there, that's what a smart guy would do.

 

Or course the smarter guy would simply run n hide. Best way to not die.

[LuMeow]

Oh my god, this is awesome! Make it happenm, DE please!

[unknow99]

Ok notionphil, as I said before, your feedback is correct but the only point a bit wrong is the non-improvement of A.I. .

 

I got some proof to show you that adding both anti-tenno gear/defense tools & more brain cells should be done.

 

1st : 

 

2nd :

[notionphil]

Ok notionphil, as I said before, your feedback is correct but the only point a bit wrong is the non-improvement of A.I. .

 

I got some proof to show you that adding both anti-tenno gear/defense tools & more brain cells should be done.

 

1st : 

 

2nd :

I know the AI has issues (and bugs) and agree with that numerous times in the thread :)

However the point of this thread is that making "complex AI" routines won't add combat depth bc our enemies have a life expectancy of about 1 second. Not 30 seconds as you see in that video.

No one plays like the person in the video, observing enemy patterns for minutes before taking them out. We simply slaughter them the second we see them.

We need simple, "dumb AI" routines to make the 1 second we interact with enemies more interesting. And maybe turn it into 2 seconds.

[notionphil]

Well, 99% deaths are not from surprise attacks so if you knew the enemy approaches, you would get into position, toss grenades, roll often, etc. or sidestep often. Enough Corpus taking strategic steps can hinder one of the Tenno, making another heal him of course you are powerless to whichever "4" he/she uses before healing, but at least you made one of the Tenno squirm and if that person does not use a 4 skill then he's all yours if he remains vulnerable taking em down one by one and that is what a smart Ai would do in a situation other than the one you mentioned.

 

So there, that's what a smart guy would do.

 

Or course the smarter guy would simply run n hide. Best way to not die.

Roll and sidestep, great "dumb enemy tool" ideas which are suggested in the OP!

Not sure why our enemies see a slow moving ogris heading their way and catch it with their face :)

[Cabadath5]

I know the AI has issues (and bugs) and agree with that numerous times in the thread :)

However the point of this thread is that making "complex AI" routines won't add combat depth bc our enemies have a life expectancy of about 1 second. Not 30 seconds as you see in that video.

No one plays like the person in the video, observing enemy patterns for minutes before taking them out. We simply slaughter them the second we see them.

We need simple, "dumb AI" routines to make the 1 second we interact with enemies more interesting. And maybe turn it into 2 seconds.

Enemies survive about 1 second on low level missions but if they finally decide to add content fit for those that managed to upgrade their serration past 100% damage along with a maxed multishot mod, enemies will actually be capable of withstanding more than one hit.

 

Also have you read my earlier post?

[Sabreracer]

I am officially in love with this thread.

 

This is what made ME3 Multiplayer fun and replayable; enemies like Phantoms and Banshees keeping us on our toes while we murder fodder on a grand scale.

 

10/10 - Would read again.

Plus the Enemy scaled with the difficulty.  Not smarter but more aggressive as well as tougher.

 

Bronze : they would hide behind cover and retreat with little provocation.

Silver : more aggressive, advancing quicker, firing more often.  The player standing out in the open out of cover starts to become a bad idea 

Gold : even more aggressive, Marauder Shields will kill you in very little time unless you keep moving or get into cover.

Platinum : Bullet sponge Boss DPS fest 

[notionphil]

Enemies survive about 1 second on low level missions but if they finally decide to add content fit for those that managed to upgrade their serration past 100% damage along with a maxed multishot mod, enemies will actually be capable of withstanding more than one hit.

 

Also have you read my earlier post?

 

Agreed...If DE adds content that has enemies which are engaging you in prolonged firefights, their AI will be more important. However, none of that content exists in WF, and even if it is added....the vast majority of Warframe will still be 1 second enemies.

 

Enemies survive for less than 1 second on all of WF's content unless you don't have a Serration. If you're doing high level content, obviously you're modded for it and you're still one hitting everything with a penta/boltor P. Probably even more so than at low level.

 

For that vast majority of "1 second enemy" content, dumb "tools" like a helmet, or "a dodge when Ogris is fired" routine matter more than advanced AI behaviors, which we won't even see.

 

Nope i missed earlier post.

 

 

Okay then.

 

Lemme find a few videos of enemies walking into walls or spinning in circles or unable to reach the player because they are too incompetent to use an elevator or throwing grenades right into the ceiling then.

 

This game DOES need better AI.

 

 

I know AI has some bugs. I've seen the circle walk. Or the "in and out of cover" dance. I agree those bugs need to be fixed.

 

But that's not the "better AI" I'm saying we should forget about...I specifically refer to requests for "tactics and formations" etc. Things that won't improve combat, bc enemies will just spend their 1 second trying to get into position.

 

Also, lets be honest here. It's not like 99% of enemies bug out.

 

Most enemies pretty much behave logically for the 1 second they are alive. So, yes lets fix it, but lets not pretend making that X% of enemies not glitch out is going to all of a sudden make WF's combat feel different.

 

 

 

Also if they were actually capable of dealing damage like they did in the recent alert event a better AI would indeed help.The moas from those alerts were indeed difficult(if you didn't ulti spam that is) but units that would use cover would probably just stick behind a guard rail waiting to get shot.

 

As for abilities and a way to counter them, people will hate me for what I'm about to say but 9000000% energy efficiency/duration/etc HAS GOT to go.

 

Combined all this with a bit of a tweak to the insane power creep that is starting to slowly return, and high level missions where enemies are though enough not to get insta gibbed with one bullet from a fully automatic rifle and we may actually have a bit of a challenge in this game.

 

Ok, so IF...

 

-"No ult spam. "

 

-"Enemies that we can't one hit. "

 

-"Enemies that can quickly take us out."

 

-"No massive duration/power/range on abilities."

 

-"No power creep"

 

...Then better AI matters. I'll give you that.

 

However...that game you described....isn't Warframe.

 

You just described a standard shooter where things like cover, patience and strategy are critical because every enemy can kill you.

 

Turning this game into that game isn't going to be accomplished with AI changes. That's an entirely different game, with new enemies, new stats, new powers, new mods, new progression etc.

 

I'm making suggestions to add some engagement to combat in the context of this game, not trying to turn it into an entirely different game.

Edited June 4, 2014 by notionphil

[Metalarcher]

Dis.  I needs it.

 

"War Diety" is a term I'm seeing more and more used to describe Warframe, and I like it.  That's what we are.  That's what the Orokin called us.  I want to feel like that.  I don't want to feel like I'm playing a "press 4 2 win" game, but I don't want to feel like I'm just some guy in a suit, only as strong as the next crewman...

 

There's only so much popularity a thread can have before DE is drawn towards it, or it becomes impossible to talk to a player without him saying "oh my god did you see this idea it fixes all of our problems."  Here's hoping yours gets to that point, because if it does I don't think there's any way DE can say "well, there are some flaws..."

 

There aren't any flaws in this basic idea.  Enemy AI only matters if they can survive, but surviving off of pure HP and AR is bogus and only breeds top-tier boltor prime builds, which we don't need more of.

 

In short I agree completely with you.  This is a big change, a lot of enemies would have to have redesigns (even just slight ones would still be a task because they would be across all enemies in the game already, apart from perhaps the shield lancer as you said).  But we need a big change in Warframe right now.  I don't know about everyone else but I would like to see engaging and (at times) challenging gameplay sooner rather than later.

[azmyth1]

I like your point about the restaurant with no cooks.  Warframe has tons of awesome weapons and frames, beautiful artwork, sound, animation, on and on.  But there are only a couple interesting mission types (which they're working on, Interception is an improvement, Rescue 2.0 is ... a step in the right direction at least, Survival was great when that came along).  But all the enemies are boring.  The weapons are unbalanced.  The mod system is a complete mess.  Even enemies which used to be interesting, like shield lancers and railgun moas have been nerfed into oblivion.

 

DE surely has enough money to some hire game balance people.  Just a few statisticians or someone who's worked on a PvP game where balance really matters could help them.  Scott is in over his head.  I remember the live stream where he said the Tigris should "hit like a Mac truck" and then promptly moved it from being the worst shotgun to the second worst shotgun (slightly better than the Strun) where it has sat ever since.  

[Cabadath5]

Enemies survive for less than 1 second on all of WF's content unless you don't have a Serration. If you're doing high level content, obviously you're modded for it and you're still one hitting everything with a penta/boltor P. Probably even more so than at low level.

 

Agreed...If DE adds content that has enemies which are engaging you in prolonged firefights, their AI will be more important. However, none of that content exists in WF, and even if it is added....the vast majority of Warframe will still be 1 second enemies.

 

For that vast majority of "1 second enemy" content, dumb "tools" matter more than advanced AI behaviors, which we won't even see.

 

Nope i missed earlier post.

 

 

 

I know AI has some bugs. I've seen the circle walk. Or the "in and out of cover" dance. I agree those bugs need to be fixed.

 

But that's not the "better AI" I'm referring to...I specifically refer to requests for "tactics and formations" etc.

 

Also, lets be honest here. It's not like 99% of enemies bug out.

 

Most enemies pretty much behave logically for the 1 second they are alive. So, yes lets fix it, but lets not pretend making that X% of enemies not glitch out is going to all of a sudden make WF's combat feel different.

 

 

 

 

Ok, so IF...

 

-"No ult spam. "

 

-"Enemies that we can't one hit. "

 

-"Enemies that can quickly take us out."

 

-"No massive duration/power/range on abilities."

 

-"No power creep"

 

...Then better AI matters. I'll give you that.

 

However...that game you described....isn't Warframe.

 

You just described a standard shooter where things like cover, patience and strategy are critical because every enemy can kill you.

 

Turning this game into that game isn't going to be accomplished with AI changes. That's an entirely different game, with new enemies, new stats, new powers, new mods, new progression etc.

 

I'm making suggestion changes to try and add some engagement to combat in the context of this game, not trying to turn it into an entirely different game.

-No ult spam-aka warframe before wondermods update that allowed us to go to 75% power efficiency(ult spam was still possible but nowhere near as bad as it is now).

 

-Enemies that we can't one hit-aka the warframe new player experience.Just as we evolve and upgrade our weapons so should our enemies evolve to provide a better challenge to players that have upgraded their weapon mods.

 

Now, I do not expect to see enemies that are getting shot at by all four players and yet they refuse to do down(ala damage 1.0 high level defense).Even now if we go on high level defense or survival missions for a longer time we shall eventually encounter enemies whose health/armor/shields are capable of withstanding more than a single shot from our weapons and heavy units that reward careful headshots over mindless spray.

 

-Enemies that can quickly take us out.I do not expect them to murder us in less than one second like it happens in no shield nightmare mods but I do wish our basic, non heavy enemies would be more of a threat than they are now.Currently even at high levels right now the only real dangers are heavy units or the ever annoying and cheesy bleed procs(and even those are quickly nullified with a good ol 75% efficiency ult than may deny our enemies a chance to hit us at all, combined with the assistance from a healer-frame or team health restores).

 

-No massive duration/power/range on abilities.Again warframe pre-corrupted mods.

 

-No power creep-Because having a weapon you love nullified the second another Wednesday shows up is good right?Right now the angstrum can render all other secondary weapons obsolete(except for certain situations).

 

   Also I wholeheartedly agree with you regarding posts about enemy formations etc.As I have mentioned before my definition of a better AI is not an AI capable of doing complex mathematical calculations while juggling grenades and riding a monocycle.Proper pathing, targeting, ability to interact with the environment and upgrades that would make stealth missions more interesting than just "press 4 before they see you and sound the alarm" are enough for now(perhaps later on certain things such as their ability to see players thru walls will be addressed).

 

And regarding your original post I fully agree that enemies to indeed need more quirks and abilities(perhaps leave things that make them immune to damage except when certain parts of them are exposed at certain times, out.We already have bosses that do that and it's annoying enough..).But I do not agree that they will make up for a poor AI.On the other hand such enemies combined with a capable AI would indeed make the game much more interesting.

[DietEbolaCola]

I hope this is referred to in Friday's devstream, as the topic for it is Enemies and Enemy AI.

[notionphil]

I like your point about the restaurant with no cooks.  Warframe has tons of awesome weapons and frames, beautiful artwork, sound, animation, on and on.  But there are only a couple interesting mission types (which they're working on, Interception is an improvement, Rescue 2.0 is ... a step in the right direction at least, Survival was great when that came along).  But all the enemies are boring.  The weapons are unbalanced.  The mod system is a complete mess.  Even enemies which used to be interesting, like shield lancers and railgun moas have been nerfed into oblivion.

 

DE surely has enough money to some hire game balance people.  Just a few statisticians or someone who's worked on a PvP game where balance really matters could help them.  Scott is in over his head.  I remember the live stream where he said the Tigris should "hit like a Mac truck" and then promptly moved it from being the worst shotgun to the second worst shotgun (slightly better than the Strun) where it has sat ever since.  

 

You really hit the nail on the head.

 

Warframe increasingly feels like a sandbox with no sand.

 

We have SOOO many wonderful toys and tools (guns/frames) to play with, but nothing interesting to use them on.

 

Remember that time that you said "Man, it's so good I had that sniper rifle because...". Yeah that never happened. Or that other time where Vauban's Bounce really saved the day when Bastille/Vortex couldn't? Yah no.

 

I feel the giving enemies "tools" to survive certain situations is a first step in the direction toward creating dynamic gameplay situations where the same old solutions won't cut it.

 

I'd love to see an in game situation when Penta + Iron Skin + MPrime won't solve your problem. A situation where the Lanka is the right choice compared with the Boltor Prime.

 

With Rescue 2.0 we have the game's first situation where stealth is a good choice, maybe even better than an ult. It's forced, but its a step in the right direction. Imagine another where a rare mob went into ultra-tenno-killer-rage-mode if he detected you? Giving you the choice to quiet down, shut off the alarm and go back into hiding...or team up and get ready to take him down guns blazing?

[WhisperByte]

I hope this is referred to in Friday's devstream, as the topic for it is Enemies and Enemy AI.

It won't be but keep up with the optimism

[Renegade343]

You really hit the nail on the head.

 

Warframe increasingly feels like a sandbox with no sand.

 

We have SOOO many wonderful toys and tools (guns/frames) to play with, but nothing interesting to use them on.

 

Remember that time that you said "Man, it's so good I had that sniper rifle because...". Yeah that never happened. Or that other time where Vauban's Bounce really saved the day when Bastille/Vortex couldn't? Yah no.

 

I feel the giving enemies "tools" to survive certain situations is a first step in the direction toward creating dynamic gameplay situations where the same old solutions won't cut it.

 

I'd love to see an in game situation when Penta + Iron Skin + MPrime won't solve your problem. A situation where the Lanka is the right choice compared with the Boltor Prime.

We can always overhaul the Eximi to make them be an actual threat, for starters (some resistance to powers with vulnerability to others, just to shake up gameplay a bit). I am currently working on it, and will share the completed project to everyone here into this thread if you like. 

Edited June 4, 2014 by Renegade343

[notionphil]

It won't be but keep up with the optimism

 

I am certain the Devs are aware of this thread.

 

I don't know if it's just good timing, but I'd be surprised to see the livestream go without a mention of simple enemy mechanics, and potential effect on gameplay.

[notionphil]

We can always overhaul the Eximi to make them be an actual threat, for starters (some resistance to powers with vulnerability to others, just to shake up gameplay a bit). I am currently working on it, and will share the completed project to everyone here into this thread if you like. 

 

The Eximi are a good place to start, and have a lot of potential to make combat more dynamic. Please feel free to link your thread here.

[WhisperByte]

I am certain the Devs are aware of this thread.

 

I don't know if it's just good timing, but I'd be surprised to see the livestream go without a mention of simple enemy mechanics, and potential effect on gameplay.

Last time you linked your balance thread on the first page of livestream thread with a valid question, not a single mention of them caring about weapon balance so I will be surprised if they mention enemy balance at all.

 

Come on, DEvs! Prove me wrong!

[Undead_Zeratul]

I agree, AI won't mean squat if they don't live long enough to utilize their newfound brain powers.  Weak spots on common enemies, reasons to actually take aim instead of just spraying death in their general direction, worrying about blowing up every enemy in the room with your ultimate, are all great examples to make combat feel different, not just on a mission-to-mission basis, but a conflict-to-conflict basis within any given mission.  Just giving some melee units the ability to parry our bullets to close the gap in the same way that we do to them, would cause us to take decisive action and switch our melee weapons as well (if we brought them, that is).

 

We don't need only adjusting the numbers around how quickly our adversaries fall before us, but rather HOW we make our adversaries fall.  Enemy AI will only prolong the inevitable, while giving more variation to our enemies in terms of where or how we take them down in the end will provide a much more satisfying experience IMO.

 

As usual, you have my upvote, my good sir.

[notionphil]

Last time you linked your balance thread on the first page of livestream thread with a valid question, not a single mention of them caring about weapon balance so I will be surprised if they mention enemy balance at all.

 

Come on, DEvs! Prove me wrong!

 

In this case, the actual livestream is 100% relevant to the topic at hand...so

 

...yes this would be a pretty good binary "ping" to see how seriously DE is taking player feedback.

 

 

I agree, AI won't mean squat if they don't live long enough to utilize their newfound brain powers.  Weak spots on common enemies, reasons to actually take aim instead of just spraying death in their general direction, worrying about blowing up every enemy in the room with your ultimate, are all great examples to make combat feel different, not just on a mission-to-mission basis, but a conflict-to-conflict basis within any given mission.  Just giving some melee units the ability to parry our bullets to close the gap in the same way that we do to them, would cause us to take decisive action and switch our melee weapons as well (if we brought them, that is).

 

We don't need only adjusting the numbers around how quickly our adversaries fall before us, but rather HOW we make our adversaries fall.  Enemy AI will only prolong the inevitable, while giving more variation to our enemies in terms of where or how we take them down in the end will provide a much more satisfying experience IMO.

 

+1 to you too! Many awesome key points here so I'll break them out to re-iterate:

 

-reasons to actually take aim instead of spraying in general direction

-drawbacks sometimes caused by blowing up every enemy in the room with ult

-allow more enemies to close gap to melee by parrying/dodging (spectres do this and its pretty cool, but thats one single mission/enemy)

-concentrate not just on "when enemies fall"(aka how much HP) but "how they fall"

Edited June 4, 2014 by notionphil

[Undead_Zeratul]

+1 to you too! Many awesome key points here so I'll break them out to re-iterate:

 

-reasons to actually take aim instead of spraying in general direction

-drawbacks sometimes caused by blowing up every enemy in the room with ult

-allow more enemies to close gap to melee by parrying/dodging (spectres do this and its pretty cool, but thats one single mission/enemy)

-concentrate not just on "when enemies fall"(aka how much HP) but "how they fall"

 

I wouldn't say it's just HP, but yes, their defenses vs our offenses.  Changing that around isn't enough.  If all we did was alter stats on everything, that wouldn't make the game more engaging, it'd just determine how fast we clear our opposition.  It doesn't make that opposition any more fun to clear, though.

[RevenantBacon]

I feel like this thread is very relevant to the way I play. Especially with the old Nova. I would run into a room, ult for 25 energy (Stream-Line plus Fleeting Expertise) shoot one guy in the face, and watch the whole room explode. Total cost of killing everything: .5 seconds, 1 bullet from my primary/secondary, and 25 energy that will regenerate soon from Energy Siphon (assuming of course, that not a single enemy in that entire room drops an energy orb). Next room, rinse, repeat.

 

Honestly, If they just made some enemies with resistance to being exploded to death in .5 of a second, that alone would be a marked improvement. But I digress. I am completely in agreement that enemies should get some type of special abilities that allow them to protect allies/themselves, weakness to specific ways of being damaged (not immunities to other damage types, just vulnerable to melee, resists bullets, or vice versa). Maybe a dodge roll away from a grenade or rocket occasionally (obviously not all the time, otherwise, Ogris/Penta/Angstrum would be useless).

 

Also, thoughts on how to get DE to read the thread. Everyone who has read this thread send PM to Rebecca, Megan, or Steve saying "Hey, this thread has some great ideas! Read it!"

 

 - Edit: PM'd Rebecca, and she PM'd back that she's opened it in another tab and has it on her radar. So you guys don't need to PM anyone. We don't want to spam their inbox after all.

 

Just some thoughts I had.

Edited June 4, 2014 by RevenantBacon

[notionphil]

I feel like this thread is very relevant to the way I play. Especially with the *old* Nova. I would run into a room, ult for 25 energy (Stream-Line plus Fleeting Expertise) shoot ONE GUY in the face, and watch the WHOLE ROOM explode. Total cost of killing everything: .5 seconds, 1 bullet from my primary/secondary, and 25 energy that will regenerate soon from Energy Siphon (assuming of course, that not a SINGLE enemy in that ENTIRE ROOM drops an energy orb). Next room, rinse, repeat.

 

Honestly, If they just made some enemies with resistance to being exploded to death in .5 of a second, that alone would be a marked improvement. But I digress. I am completely in agreement that enemies should get some type of special abilities that allow them to protect allies/themselves, weakness to specific ways of being damaged (NOT immunities to other damage types, just vulnerable to melee, resists bullets, or vice versa). Maybe a dodge roll away from a grenade or rocket occasionally (obviously not ALL the time, otherwise, Ogris/Penta/Angstrum would be useless).

 

Also, thoughts on how to get DE to read the thread. Everyone who has read this thread send PM to Rebecca, Megan, or Steve saying "Hey, this thread has some great ideas! Read it!"

 

Just some thoughts I had.

 

Yes, the fact that every "problem" has the same "solution" [shoot in face, or press 4] certainly leaves room for improvement!

 

If you support the thread, a quick email to rebecca would be a good idea, given that she'll be running a livestream on the topic of enemies, with the enemy design team, this friday.

 

Super relevant and aptly timed. Thanks for the support!