Forget Better Ai - We Need Better Dumb Enemies

[RevenantBacon]

Yes, the fact that every "problem" has the same "solution" [shoot in face, or press 4] certainly leaves room for improvement!

 

If you support the thread, a quick email to rebecca would be a good idea, given that she'll be running a livestream on the topic of enemies, with the enemy design team, this friday.

 

Super relevant and aptly timed. Thanks for the support!

Of course. Always happy to bump a good Idea. Speaking of which...

[DeadlyNerd]

While OP is right, enemies aren't the problem, it's the principle of leveling through content. 

 

If DE would create content where killing a brofist on mercury required the same amount of bullets from a braton as killing him on pluto, THEN AI, and even bigger enemies,  would matter.

As long as that isn't sorted, the only challenge will be min40 T3S.

Edited June 4, 2014 by DeadlyNerd

[Innocent_Flower]

I think past a certain point enemies just need to stop getting more health, armour and shields. They can keep getting better weapons and damage, but I think It'd be more interesting if they became more numerous or better yet: Got more powers to the point where half of them are eximus units with full control over their abilities.  

[Davoodoo]

I think past a certain point enemies just need to stop getting more health, armour and shields. They can keep getting better weapons and damage, but I think It'd be more interesting if they became more numerous or better yet: Got more powers to the point where half of them are eximus units with full control over their abilities.  

When we demanded that enemies would be less bullet spongy we were introduced with what we have now, press 4 and shoot a guy anywhere really to clear entire room.

Capping hp would do nothing good. 

 

Amount of our offensive capabilities is just inadequate to tools that enemy have.

Like OP already said, enemies have at best 1 second to do anything before they either get killed or disabled. Thats at best, usually it ends under 0.5s, how much can enemy do within 0.5s?? fire once??

I believe that time for their reaction should be prolonged, my prefered option would be to actually reduce our dmg and reduce effectiveness of cc but as long as its fixed its fine with me.

[locojuan]

well posted!! i like your ideas! while some ppl still insists in that weapons/frames are too OP even if this ideas are applied, i have to remark that it gives a good feel of balance. as i always say, theres ppl who likes to be pushed to the max, and theres ppl who likes to sit down and press 4. their are both in their right, and this ideas give room for both. ofcourse we will have ppl crying about "it is too hard, buff me!" or "it fixes nothing, keep nerfin!" but im pretty sure there is no way around them.

your ideas have been rounding my mind for the last month or so. i am so glad you posted this in such a clean and well presented way.

 

DE, guys, dudes, buds, girls... this is one step in the right direction. i eager you to take it into concideration.

[YashiroSora]

From what i read, the idea is very good, i applaud it in fact. However while you say we don't need better AI, yes better units help a lot, but the actions like dodging your Ogris is linked to AI, in which i find that you need to tune it so its reactive to our actions.

[SanctumDraconis]

Great post.. I agree a 100%

 

Make this game more challenging PLEASEE!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Pizzarugi]

I've brought this up a couple times in the past, but DE should take a look at Mass Effect 3's multiplayer. As much as I hate Mass Effect 3 (obvious reasons known to some people), there's no denying that they did a good job with multiplayer. The AI in that game is very simple similarly to Warframe's AI, but the enemy diversity is extensive. 1shot special mobs aside, the enemy factions have lots of different units each with unique functionality. They have long range, heavy hitting enemies, massive numbers of cannon fodder primarily used to distract players, while far heavier opponents slowly walked themselves closer to their targets to unleash hell. They also have utility mobs capable of deploying devices capable of dealing suppressed fire to keep players under control.

I could go on, but then I'd be rambling. The point is, DE needs to add more variety to enemy behavior. Don't just make them all cannon fodder with different guns and health pools, give them different functions and strategies to make it feel like they're smart.

[MattHarrigan]

Interesting suggestions by OP.

 

I'd like to throw in another one

 

• Enemies throw their grenades on-sight, if applicable. Would make the game a lot harder ;D

 

[Deidaku]

 @notionphil

 

The corpus should be the first ones to ge the "counter power" unit.  since they've experimented on warframe before . Then the infested.

 

But for the grineer since they have no energy tech it should just be a Juggernaut type enemy ( resistant to mind control , unstoppable force et etc )

[ast00]

Would be a pain in the &#! to code, but that's what the game needs.

[Paul_Pianoff]

Would be a pain in the @$$ to code, but that's what the game needs.

I can surely tell you that this won't be as much of a pain in the ace to code as "improved AI".

 

Bump. DE needs to see this.

Edited June 5, 2014 by PhantomRUS9

[notionphil]

 

Also, thoughts on how to get DE to read the thread. Everyone who has read this thread send PM to Rebecca, Megan, or Steve saying "Hey, this thread has some great ideas! Read it!"

 

 - Edit: PM'd Rebecca, and she PM'd back that she's opened it in another tab and has it on her radar. So you guys don't need to PM anyone. We don't want to spam their inbox after all.

 

 

 

 

Brief update for those who are interested in this topic:

 

Thanks for supporting and sharing your thoughts!

 

It's been brought to my attention that a few people @ DE are aware of this thread and discussion. Let's make sure that Friday's livestream with the Enemy design team thoroughly addresses the topic of lack of challenging/engaging enemy mechanics.

 

Combat is the core of WFs gameplay, and enemies are integral to that core. Monotonous enemies lead to monotonous combat and repetitive gameplay.

 

Engaging enemies that can create dynamic situations will lead to excitement, challenge, teamwork and strategy.

 

I've also updated the OP to include a spoiler at bottom with comments from those who captured key concepts/takeways from WF's combat.

[locojuan]

we are in the same page. coding better ai would extensively be time and money demanding, while it would not protect the enemies from our powers and DPS at all.

we all agree that enemies sometimes bug out, yes. they need to be fixed, but not necessary reworked. Yet, by simply adding or reworking the eximus powers we could still have both klind of experiences in game. one where you shoot your way trough mobs with whatever weapon you have, and another where all of the sudden a special enemy will force you to concentrate your fire in a specific weak point, coupled with it's ability to, not only deny our powers for himself, but for the whole squad in a AoE. this things are the simpliest and more opend minded solutions i can think of.
Warframe is a game where all kind of players should have the chance to enjoy... not only hardcore, not only p4tw.

even more, all this is completely lore friendly. i'll throw some quick raw examples:
Alad V is playing with the infested and the Tcyte virus right? he knows warframes very well since zanuka prototype, right??
Well, before he bocomes infested or die, he discovered a way to counter our abilities. He is all about profit so, that intel is something every single enemy of the tenno woud pay a large amount of money for. thus, all factions get the blue prints to build special anti-warframe units.
there is an excuse to introduce this units.

Dark Sectors. courrently ocupied by the infested (i hate it). they are about to get their own planet and boss, so i see no reason why they should remain in the dark sectors. instead, put this mobs on the dark sectors, and complete it with more mission types. leave the start chart for more casual gameplay (the new mobs will still be present but no so offten), and let the "hardcore" builds be put to good use. Protect your rails from these factions trying to cross from the dark sectors to the origin system. we created the rails, we are presponsable for them. this even couples very well with proxy wars and even focus!

i see no waste here. DE, open your eyes my dearest devs, the OP has a good thing going on here.

im in a hurry, plz forgive my bad english.

[RustyNaps]

I had some ideas for enemy abilities/AI. primarily Grineer and Corpus. Heres 6.

 

GRINEER:

Elite Lancers: Elite lancers have more mobility, they are able to duck, dive roll and strafe from bullets and into cover. They rarely stay in 1 area and tend to throw grenades more often than regular lancers.

Shield Lancers: Shield lancers will often run in front of allies (while blocking fire from themselves) to provide them cover. Also a group of shield lancers can place their shields down and form destructible barricades to block player movement.

Heavy Gunners: Heavy gunners can provide their allies with more ammo (longer firing sessions) and give them a slight buff to ally guns within their aura. They also can man Gorgons on Lancer barricades and act like Turrets which also grants them another slight buff in damage.

 

CORPUS:

Tech: Corpus Techs can deploy any of the three following ospreys up to 3 times (shield, mine or leech) before a cool down of 30 secs. Benefiting their allies or change battle tides. They are also able to repair downed Moas by deploying repair nanites.

Sniper Crewman: Sniper Crewmen have the ability to stay cloaked when not firing. They also only aim for the head and change position every shot.

Crewmen/MOAS: Regular Crewman sit in a nearby computer room providing Moas with an intelligence buff. These moas will keep distance and strafe from time to time dodging player bullets. These MOA's also have close quarter combat and kick at the player when they get too close. To dumb down the moas the player must find the room the crewman is located in, take him out and hack the control terminal.

 

These are just some of my ideas for the current units. I might make a thread about it but they always die.

Edited June 5, 2014 by RustyNaps

[Azamagon]

@notionphil:

I gotta say, this has got to be one of the most IMPORTANT threads you have ever made! :) There are not just great ideas in here, they are NECESSARY for the game's future! I am a man that wants balance, logic and consistency before anything else. But the things you mention here... that is arguably MORE important before even starting with all those other things! For example; why bother with balancing stuff if you haven't added some real challenge in the first place? Some buffs and nerfs might not even be necessary to change if these challenging enemies were part of the game, since things would have more variables than just damage vs health.

 

It also seems to be sparking some seriously good ideas from other people in here. This one in particular sticks out to me:

 

we are in the same page. coding better ai would extensively be time and money demanding, while it would not protect the enemies from our powers and DPS at all.

we all agree that enemies sometimes bug out, yes. they need to be fixed, but not necessary reworked. Yet, by simply adding or reworking the eximus powers we could still have both klind of experiences in game. one where you shoot your way trough mobs with whatever weapon you have, and another where all of the sudden a special enemy will force you to concentrate your fire in a specific weak point, coupled with it's ability to, not only deny our powers for himself, but for the whole squad in a AoE. this things are the simpliest and more opend minded solutions i can think of.
Warframe is a game where all kind of players should have the chance to enjoy... not only hardcore, not only p4tw.

even more, all this is completely lore friendly. i'll throw some quick raw examples:
Alad V is playing with the infested and the Tcyte virus right? he knows warframes very well since zanuka prototype, right??
Well, before he bocomes infested or die, he discovered a way to counter our abilities. He is all about profit so, that intel is something every single enemy of the tenno woud pay a large amount of money for. thus, all factions get the blue prints to build special anti-warframe units.
there is an excuse to introduce this units.

Dark Sectors. courrently ocupied by the infested (i hate it). they are about to get their own planet and boss, so i see no reason why they should remain in the dark sectors. instead, put this mobs on the dark sectors, and complete it with more mission types. leave the start chart for more casual gameplay (the new mobs will still be present but no so offten), and let the "hardcore" builds be put to good use. Protect your rails from these factions trying to cross from the dark sectors to the origin system. we created the rails, we are presponsable for them. this even couples very well with proxy wars and even focus!

i see no waste here. DE, open your eyes my dearest devs, the OP has a good thing going on here.

im in a hurry, plz forgive my bad english.

The bolded and underlined part there is extremely important and relevant. Dark Sectors were supposed to a part of the challenge / endgame levels. What better way than to have these challenging "dumb" enemies overflowing in there! They wouldn't necessarily need to be bulletspongey, just "challenging-mechanic-spongey", pretty much.

 

I really, REALLY hope DE pays attention to this thread.

[[DE]DanielB]

We may not respond to every thread, but we do read as many as we can.

There are definitely some good suggestions in here!

 

See you on the DevStream tomorrow.

[shieldxm]

This thread can make Warframe go places. Please make these come true! Features like these can really bring many of us players back in the game!

[RevenantBacon]

Sweet.

 

We may not respond to every thread, but we do read as many as we can.

There are definitely some good suggestions in here!

 

See you on the DevStream tomorrow.

 

Now we just need to make sure someone mentions it in the devstream tomorrow. Also, they will probably be talking about the winners of the enemy submission contests, so there's that too. New Corpus, new Grineer, and an especially interesting new Infested!

[gell]

I agree with the idea. I've also said quite a few times that the Shield Lancer is the best designed enemy in the game, and that's saying something since he can also be killed without using more than neuron in your brain.

[notionphil]

We may not respond to every thread, but we do read as many as we can.

There are definitely some good suggestions in here!

 

See you on the DevStream tomorrow.

 

Thanks for your input Daniel!

 

We really hope DE uses the livestream to engage with us about more interesting enemy mechanics, and rewarding tactics and skill. Not just art and design.

 

(and hopefully less that enemies punish with RNG or cheapshots, like Prosecutors RNG weakness, Grineer Commanders or Shock "energy-wipe" Eximus)

[Kaokasalis]

I love this idea and hope this is used. Would make most mission better than the standard mindless killfest.

Edited June 5, 2014 by Septin

[Metalarcher]

We may not respond to every thread, but we do read as many as we can.

There are definitely some good suggestions in here!

 

See you on the DevStream tomorrow.

Oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh yes.  DE attention.  All right.  Pretty slick, yo.

[NoggDog117]

-snip-

 

 

I think this is one of the best suggestions I have seen in a very long time for Warframe. These ideas need to be implemented. All of them. I totally agree that asking for "smarter AI" gets us nowhere, and have also thought about the possibilities of different gear and powers for enemies, but definitely not on this scale. Also, the idea of adding versions of mobs (like the Infested Ancient Guardian) that protect enemies from us is great! All the things you stated in this, notionphil, are absolutely viable, and should be added to the game. 

 

Like calabi states (Page 1 bottom post), however, new players would have a bit of trouble with this. Maybe we can include a small tutorial video where the Lotus usually talks where it goes through what enemies do what, and how to stop it.

[Ronyn]

 

I think .....

OP..this is the best feedback/suggestion post I have ever seen on these boards.