Devstream 30: An Unexpectedly Large Blow To My Hopes For The Game

[LukeAura]

I really disliked the response too. The main opposition to the mechanic is "people don't like quick-time events." In general, people prefer when successful QTEs grant benefits (melee 2.0), rather than failure brings punishment (think of those games where the QTE kills you if you fail).

And I don't think it's really a failure brings punishment scenario either. The punishment feels at least somewhat fair because you didn't avoid getting hit with the knockdown in the first place, and that's where most of the players feelings of 'this is a punishment' will point at. The reactionary saving roll would be a way to counter that punishment, not get it. 

 

[Hearthwin]

Not really old. But not really new. PSO defined my taste in games. This is an example of some of the boss fights. I am putting 3 links showing three ways to do it differently.

 

 

Skip to 21:07

 

 

 

I found a spark of this game in Warframe. The RNG drop rates are find to me. Going over and over again to get the weapon with the right stats was the best part of PSO. Lephantis. Lephantis was so similar to what I saw in PSO. More bosses like this. More enemies like Lephantis. That take some skill. That take some timing to actually dodge attacks. Not just running around as an Iron Skin giant Donut. THAT'S what i hope for Warframe. That's what I see in Warframe. And I think we are slowly making our way there. 

[MechaKnight]

And I don't think it's really a failure brings punishment scenario either. The punishment feels at least somewhat fair because you didn't avoid getting hit with the knockdown in the first place, and that's where most of the players feelings of 'this is a punishment' will point at. The reactionary saving roll would be a way to counter that punishment, not get it. 

 

I already established earlier that what we're speaking of isn't a quick-time event, and the only opposition to this change ever happening would be if it was. The "ukemi" mechanic seen in various fighting games is when the character is knocked down, but with a kick of their legs, they're back standing on their feet. At which point, since we already were hit and knocked down, the mechanic is fair because we already were knocked down, not preventing it. Knockdown resistance mods would still be valid.

[t3hsquirr3l]

Honestly I disagree, the core combat issues aren't tough to fix. They're just being ignored.

 

1) add a few survivability mechanics to regular enemies like shields, ranged weapon resistance, AoE resistance. ~3 or so per faction.

 

2) make Eximus 5 times as badass, once they hit level 30, and power resistant (and able to protect allies from powers). Make them spawn as announced minibosses on survival/def (like prosecutors are announced)

 

3) remove all bandaid mods (speed holster, handspring, parry etc) and make all those mechanics skill based

 

4) remove any shield bypassing attacks that are not telegraphed. This includes bleed.

 

5) make every single poison nuclear explosion cloud AoE you just showed in the LS telegraphed

 

6) make melee 2.0 have a more effective way of gap closing and hitting flying enemies.

 

7) understand that glowy weakspots on bosses don't work vs melee, and invul phases are typically not fun

 

8) implement some minor balance mechanics where AoE and powers are more harm than good

 

9) give bonus affinity/loot/whatever for killing an enemy in its 'skill based' way as opposed to nuking it

 

10) have an ice cold margarita, you've just made a frigging awesome game.

 

Is that everything? Maybe not, but it's enough to make core combat leagues better IMO.

Before I read too much farther, I want to point out that what seems like an easy concept almost never translates into an easy solution (especially in game design).  Whether the issues are in truth being ignored I cannot say, but your list looks to me (just based on my own research and interactions with other developers) like a lot of hard work.  Maybe like a year's worth.  Assuming that overall balancing works out well the first time, which I don't believe would happen.

 

I do agree almost completely with the OP, and what you've said as well, but honestly I believe that things have gone way too far to truly fix it now.  To solve half this list might require rebuilding sections from the ground up, writing all new code and designing new systems.  Unless the game is in imminent danger of failing, I can't imagine a developer resorting to a massive overhaul at this stage.  Heck, even if it was failing at this point, they might not even be able to pull off an overhaul.

 

The concept of the game's universe, the pretty graphics, and the large number of weapons keep drawing me in, but the issues outlined in the OP (stated more clearly and passionately than I could ever) drive me away again.  I show up for events and patches, and leave when I find out it's the exact same story with more shiny painted on.

 

I'll probably stick around at random when I need to blow sh*t up on a grand scale in low or mid level content, but I'm more or less done being serious about this game.  If any real progress is made on the real issues with the game's design, I'll gladly come back hardcore.

[Palamudin]

I gave OP some time, went trough wall of text that summed up all of my concerns and i have some more to add.

I tried talking to them using various means, forum post, forum pm, ticket and private msg ingame. 
They dont want to talk about what they are doing even when that someone is actual programmer>
 

I did stuff in html 15 years ago, flowed over java, php mysql and sql and in the end landed on C# and Java/javascript stuff.
Looking at the game im saddened by the amount of content that has poor coding backing, the lack of ideas and will to try, test and change Warframe.|

Summation, ill make my own game with ninjas, space, booze and hookers cause they surely wont do what players ask and that's "make a good game from start to finish."

They had their beta time to test valuable code, mechanics and since i know how things are going... this is the game, they published it and they are getting money from it. Saying beta is cover up for poor management, slow work pipeline and a lot of things involving greed.
 

The last 5 updates have taken the flare, toxicity and fun factor from this game, atleast to me. I tried once to sum it all up... realized there are far more things to object than to stand for in this game developed by these people.


Bye.,

Edited June 22, 2014 by Palamudin

[(PSN)TheRedZephyr]

Before I read too much farther, I want to point out that what seems like an easy concept almost never translates into an easy solution (especially in game design).  Whether the issues are in truth being ignored I cannot say, but your list looks to me (just based on my own research and interactions with other developers) like a lot of hard work.  Maybe like a year's worth.  Assuming that overall balancing works out well the first time, which I don't believe would happen.

 

I do agree almost completely with the OP, and what you've said as well, but honestly I believe that things have gone way too far to truly fix it now.  To solve half this list might require rebuilding sections from the ground up, writing all new code and designing new systems.  Unless the game is in imminent danger of failing, I can't imagine a developer resorting to a massive overhaul at this stage.  Heck, even if it was failing at this point, they might not even be able to pull off an overhaul.

 

The concept of the game's universe, the pretty graphics, and the large number of weapons keep drawing me in, but the issues outlined in the OP (stated more clearly and passionately than I could ever) drive me away again.  I show up for events and patches, and leave when I find out it's the exact same story with more shiny painted on.

 

I'll probably stick around at random when I need to blow sh*t up on a grand scale in low or mid level content, but I'm more or less done being serious about this game.  If any real progress is made on the real issues with the game's design, I'll gladly come back hardcore.

 

If that is a year's worth of work, it looks like we wont be getting player ships or kubrows for a decade or so. >.>

 

It's all about prioritization. If DE decided to implement notionphil's "Ten Commandments for a Great Warframe" (said it first), it would be roughly a .7 of an update. Even if they did ONE of those per major update, it would probably take a month shy of a year.

Edited June 22, 2014 by (PS4)TheRedZephyr

[t3hsquirr3l]

If that is a year's worth of work, it looks like we wont be getting player ships or kubrows for a decade or so. >.>

 

It's all about prioritization. If DE decided to implement notionphil's "Ten Commandments for a Great Warframe" (said it first), it would be roughly a .7 of an update. Even if they did ONE of those per major update, it would probably take a month shy of a year.

Hardly, since player ships and kubrows are built on and around existing systems.  Rebuilding a core system and all of the parts that are affected by it, and rebalancing the whole thing, is not even close to the same thing.  If they made many of the changes proposed, they'd probably have to rewrite all the code for kubrows as well, along with everything else.  'Fixing' one thing at a basic level affects every system that interacts with it, and those interactions need to be considered and addressed before anything can be released.  The only work you save is not having to redo all the art assets, which is a different team anyway, and has no bearing on the code being completed.

 

For a basic example, I sometimes fiddle around with programming small, simple games.  I had gotten a long way through my design, and it was playable, but with a few frustrating aspects to it.  I kept expanding it, more systems and features and whatnot, and then learned what I needed to fix to eliminate some of the frustrations.  Unfortunately, this meant changing the way certain things were handled at the base level, and then I had to rewrite every system that was built on it.  Took nearly as long as making it in the first place.

 

My experience may not be perfectly representative of big developer stuff, but it taught me that solutions are never so simple as they seem on the surface.

 

edit: basically, I'm trying to say that it makes more sense for the developers to spend time improving and adding to things like new user experiences, companions to vary gameplay, new weapons, enemies, etc than to start over with a better game, since it takes far less time and resources and hopefully pleases the majority of players (which it does seem to do, as far as I can tell.)

Edited June 22, 2014 by t3hsquirr3l

[Palamudin]

Hardly, since player ships and kubrows are built on and around existing systems.  Rebuilding a core system and all of the parts that are affected by it, and rebalancing the whole thing, is not even close to the same thing.  If they made many of the changes proposed, they'd probably have to rewrite all the code for kubrows as well, along with everything else.  'Fixing' one thing at a basic level affects every system that interacts with it, and those interactions need to be considered and addressed before anything can be released.  The only work you save is not having to redo all the art assets, which is a different team anyway, and has no bearing on the code being completed.

 

 

 

 

Your experience is lacking, you are not a professional programmer within a team, you are free solo indy developer trying to batch a game out of free/almost free content and some scripts. 

People working in DE are in this business for over a decade, their programmers are/should be top notch and very very aware of pits that you described, thats why workflow, deployment and testing is heavily relied upon beta testers feedback.

In game development there are cells, teams that preform a certain task, and for most of the issues described in warframe beta testers feedback is job for coders moslty, they donw draw, they dont design, they write a piece of code that manipulates object in the redered / unrendered space of game engine.

Warframe is heavily dependent on RNG and trigger scripts, in order to change those they need to make scripts or event triggers that replace current ones. Its not a hard job, nor is it tedious its something programmer does with ease especially when he is explained what is needed in detail.

Problem is we have a lead developer who is a programmer,they do everything  on their own, beta testers are here for cash flow not feedback and pipeline layout is unclear (soon TM)  while whole team is lacking ideas and direction of game development.

They wont listen to us, they will be bent by the market or they will brake like they did with Dark Sector the last time. This dev studio needs to be bought out by someone that know what the hell is to be done.

Or give it open source for modding of addons and charge for cosmetics.

Edited June 22, 2014 by Palamudin

[t3hsquirr3l]

Your experience is lacking, you are not a professional programmer within a team, you are free solo indy developer trying to batch a game out of free/almost free content and some scripts. 

People working in DE are in this business for over a decade, their programmers are/should be top notch and very very aware of pits that you described, thats why workflow, deployment and testing is heavily relied upon beta testers feedback.

 

Experience does not by default make any team or individual immune to poor design decisions, or to building a faulty platform.  You can't foresee every eventuality/consequence, sometimes until it's too late.  In fact, this thread's whole point is to call into question the design decisions they've made.

In game development there are cells, teams that preform a certain task, and for most of the issues described in warframe beta testers feedback is job for coders moslty, they donw draw, they dont design, they write a piece of code that manipulates object in the redered / unrendered space of game engine.

 

As I mentioned, yes, there are different teams with different responsibilities.  I was speaking only of coders and designers, in fact, if you read my post.

 

Warframe is heavily dependent on RNG and trigger scripts, in order to change those they need to make scripts or event triggers that replace current ones. Its not a hard job, nor is it tedious its something programmer does with ease especially when he is explained what is needed in detail.

 

Everything I have learned from my own studies, experiences, my father (a professional programmer and system designer), and interactions with other developers makes this statement sound ignorant.  Unless you have better qualifications that enable you to confidently claim (and support that claim) that programmers and designers can redesign and rewrite systems (and all affected systems) "with ease".  

Problem is we have a lead developer who is a programmer,they do everything  on their own, beta testers are here for cash flow not feedback and pipeline layout is unclear (soon TM)  while whole team is lacking ideas and direction of game development.

 

They wont listen to us, they will be bent by the market or they will brake like they did with Dark Sector the last time. This dev studio needs to be bought out by someone that know what the hell is to be done.

 

"Not listening to us" and "the designer is inept" are  common complaints on any game forum when the developers decide, based on information simply not available to the player base, to not implement suggested features.  We can't see how their systems are constructed, we don't actually know the politics of the company, we don't have their design documents to pour over, and we don't have access to important statistics taken from the game itself.

 

The forums are not exactly high priority for determining important game issues, since the percentage of players that use them are generally small, and those that do generally have a problem.

 

Or give it open source for modding of addons and charge for cosmetics.

 

Open source or addon support  for any primarily online multiplayer game is a dangerous road, depending on the extent of changes that can be made.  Security is paramount.

 

I also don't understand what this has to do with designing a better core gameplay system.

[BETAOPTICS]

I gave OP some time, went trough wall of text that summed up all of my concerns and i have some more to add.

I tried talking to them using various means, forum post, forum pm, ticket and private msg ingame. 

They dont want to talk about what they are doing even when that someone is actual programmer>

 

I did stuff in html 15 years ago, flowed over java, php mysql and sql and in the end landed on C# and Java/javascript stuff.

Looking at the game im saddened by the amount of content that has poor coding backing, the lack of ideas and will to try, test and change Warframe.|

Summation, ill make my own game with ninjas, space, booze and hookers cause they surely wont do what players ask and that's "make a good game from start to finish."

They had their beta time to test valuable code, mechanics and since i know how things are going... this is the game, they published it and they are getting money from it. Saying beta is cover up for poor management, slow work pipeline and a lot of things involving greed.

 

The last 5 updates have taken the flare, toxicity and fun factor from this game, atleast to me. I tried once to sum it all up... realized there are far more things to object than to stand for in this game developed by these people.

Bye.,

Honestly, the only reasons why this game actually still has that tag is because of the legal aspects. Due to the rules and conditions we all agree on to, they are not obliged to give any refunds for unsatisfied customers. Because the game is in beta, it is thus incomplete so every fund used is used as a own risk and if that risk isn't worth it in the end. Then it is your own loss.

Some think Total Biscuit is controversial youtuber and game critique but he sometimes at least is right on the point. He said that the game isn't a beta anymore when you are asking for money to test their stuff. It is actually early access model in disguise.

Edited June 25, 2014 by BETAOPTICS

[CosyPigeon]

Hey look everyone, this thread didn't make it to this months hot topics, even though it's the single largest thread for this month. 

I wonder why? /sarcasm. 

[Renegade343]

Hey look everyone, this thread didn't make it to this months hot topics, even though it's the single largest thread for this month. 

I wonder why? /sarcasm. 

Because people are too preoccupied with other, lesser things?

[Zirion_Bk]

Hey look everyone, this thread didn't make it to this months hot topics, even though it's the single largest thread for this month. 

I wonder why? /sarcasm. 

I have not seen which ones got into this month's hot topics. Care to put up a link to which ones that got in?

[Yaerion]

Hey look everyone, this thread didn't make it to this months hot topics, even though it's the single largest thread for this month. 

I wonder why? /sarcasm. 

 

I'm on it, guys.

Hot Topics 2.0 are coming, and i follow this thread.

I'm currently insisting to receive from the Devs a satisfying model of answers (which is still unclear).

 

Having the Com Mods (who are members of the community) involved in the process of detecting/sorting the Hot Topics should allow to avoid (or greatly decrease) these inconveniences (aka this topic unseen). Our participation should focus again the hot topics on the needs of the community. Our results may be hazardous first (we must get used to our new role), but we'll try to catch up the delays, Hot Topics after Hot Topics. The hugely upvoted threads like this one will obviously be a priority.

[DiabolusUrsus]

Awesome, Yaer, thanks a bunch!

[DirkDeadeye]

 

I'm on it, guys.

Hot Topics 2.0 are coming, and i follow this thread.

I'm currently insisting to receive from the Devs a satisfying model of answers (which is still unclear).

 

Having the Com Mods (who are members of the community) involved in the process of detecting/sorting the Hot Topics should allow to avoid (or greatly decrease) these inconveniences (aka this topic unseen). Our participation should focus again the hot topics on the needs of the community. Our results may be hazardous first (we must get used to our new role), but we'll try to catch up the delays, Hot Topics after Hot Topics. The hugely upvoted threads like this one will obviously be a priority.

 

This months hot topics.

 

This thread

Really? Kubros?

Dumb AI thread by the phil dude

RNG

More Clantech crap.

 

 

But we usually just get forward looking propaganda speech, written in a style second only to Ubisoft. (Prounounced EEEWBIEE Soft, walk near one of their PR reps and say EUUBIE soft. They will punch you in the nose)

 

That thread is nice and all, but results so far in the terms of community outreach amongst all the games I've played (Especially you battlefield..I was in the trenches of that S#&$..what a gong show) have made me quite jaded. So take this as someone keeping you (collective you) honest.

 

I wish more Devs were like Jared Gerritzen. Ya'know the ones who aren't acting like they're designing something written in machine code, where it might as well be frigging witchcraft to do so. When they can break the walls down, and pop the thought bubble of us as babies wearing diapers with our thumbs in our mouths the industry will be a better place.

 

Sorry Bishop, but sometimes I gotta hike my jeans up and ride my steel high horse. :P

Edited June 28, 2014 by DirkDeadeye

[Cabadath5]

I really really hope they not only read this thread but also pay mind to what players have to say here.

 

Things have been getting worse with every livestream and I don't know if it's just me but it feels like they started paying less attention to the player base lately.

[TheDoctah]

Your post brings me such joy OP, such joy. Seriously, this is a great thread. Would +1 a million times if it allowed!

[grillv20]

There was an important topic about to be discussed on livestream today but Steve got mad because the introduction felt insulting to him.

 

What we need is an OP that can get the message across that Zamboni was trying to get across. And this thread right here. https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/242366-devstream-30-an-unexpectedly-large-blow-to-my-hopes-for-the-game/

 

 

The core gameplay of warframe needs to be put into words in such a way that wont cause the dev reading it to throw a fit and ignore it. 

 

I'm just beyond disappointed that they were about to really touch on the most important topic thats been floating around on the forums today and it got flat out ignored. Still waiting on that community hot topic response from weeks ago about all this that never came to light....unless that was what was supposed to happen today but backfired.

Edited July 4, 2014 by grillv20

[Nalo1993]

How would you want it delivered?

 

I have read through the forum and I love the ideas that are in it. However, I do think that the question in today's livestream was put in wrong wording. 

Edited July 4, 2014 by Nalo1993

[grillv20]

How would you want it delivered?

 

one of those little bi-planes that write in the sky

[Nalo1993]

one of those little bi-planes that write in the sky

XD No seriously, I could try to send a message to DESteve (If he won't chew my head off), but how are you wanting it to be sent to them. In a summary, or just in a way of trying to get them to understand we would appreciate them looking at it.

 

 

Doubt it would do any good, but hey you never know until you try.

Edited July 4, 2014 by Nalo1993

[grillv20]

You cant PM messages to steve on the forums unless he blocked me specifically. It could be posted here or anywhere for that matter. Preferably here so that it could get views and posts in hopes that it would get attention. Whoever you do decide to send it to, make sure its either Scott or Rebecca preferably. She reads most of that stuff.

[Nalo1993]

You cant PM messages to steve on the forums unless he blocked me specifically. It could be posted here or anywhere for that matter. Preferably here so that it could get views and posts in hopes that it would get attention. Whoever you do decide to send it to, make sure its either Scott or Rebecca preferably. She reads most of that stuff.

Well I just sent a decent length message to Rebecca asking her to see if she could help in this matter. Now all we can do is wait and see if anything happens or if I get a reply.

[SquirmyBurrito]

He didn't ignore the question, he actually gave quite the lengthy response... its like you guys stopped listening when he said it contained a lot of bs...