I Think It's Time Boltor Prime Stops Rendering ~130 Weapons Obsolete

[Doothers]

 

Is this seriously what this turned into? Over something that doesn't even affect you in real life? Cmon guys, I know we're all human here but the least you can do is express your opinions with out bashing each other.

 

As for an on topic statement: Buff everything... EVERYTHING minus the Boltor Prime. Just increase the health of low level enemies (maybe mid level enemies too). And poof! It's like nerfing the Boltor Prime.. With out even touching it!. Basically just increase the values of everything but the Boltor Prime by a small percent and see how everything goes from then on

[Quizel]

There are alot of things youre not factoring here

 

Headshots means less potential for crowd clearing or overall DPS because of he angle of the shots

 

But youre going for headshots. Youll be spending most of your time going from target to target rather than spraying and praying

 

If you were to hold the somas fire youd just be wasting ammo between targets and losing DPS

Fair points. Given some of the points in addition to the fact that lvl 40 is the highest enemy expected to face, BP is the superior all around weapon.

 

Other additional thoughts: -take it how you want, statement above I can agree with.

 

Specifically more Soma vs BP thoughts

If one puts on HC instead of hammer shot (using same builds I described in post #271), you can get that crowd clearing spray at shoulder height. Doing so still has Boltor P ahead by 12% for body shots. Soma does suffer much more of a accuracy loss though with HC vs BP.

 

When choosing new targets, the full complete wind-down of Soma takes a few moments to happen.  It can stay nearly fully wound up between burst allowing it to maintain closer to max RoF.

 

I agree Soma is significantly more ammo hungry than BP. With such a high RoF and wind up mechanic, it's hard to pick enemies off using the optimal amount of ammo. But is it capable of lasting 20 min in a t4 sur? I don't think I've actually tried this since t4's came out-shame on me. Is the player allowed to use the secondary for a while if you do run out?  If so, it's hard to pin that as an issue.  In an endless situation though, it's a big deal to me. I highly value ammo efficiency. Putting down team ammo restores is such a crutch. 

 

If the heavies get close enough, the Soma will be accurate enough to aim for head shots, giving you the option to do massively more dmg than BP (potentially up to~61% higher dps). I want to stress that this is an optional tool the Soma is capable of that sets it apart. Versus higher level enemies this could prove very useful. Granted by than, when it truly could make a difference, you probably already ran out of ammo in the endless mission. Regardless, I want to argue this optional tool has some merit somewhere.

 

Broad Closing thoughts

If pushing the limits well beyond lvl 75 endless missions, even BP starts to run low on ammo forcing it to hand off the title of being the best all around weapon. OP seems to stress this shouldn't be considered though when balancing. A concept I have trouble excepting :D.

 

Somewhere in all that and my other post in this thread hopefully suggest that Soma is by no means rendered useless and completely inferior BP.  No mater how you look at it, one weapon will rule them all under a set of conditions (current major condition-limited to lvl 40 endgame).  The extent that one weapon dominates the rest is purely opinion.  The flight time of BP could justify why it has such dominance for body shots. This flight time has less of an impact though due to enemies clumping up or spewing out of common doorways. Was this flight time drawback really overly compensated?  Opinions. Performance-wise, I hate it. Fun-wise, I love it.

 

The fact I feel like I can take a number of various weapons into a lvl 30-40 game and expect to do just fine and be a competitive player vs my other teammates using BP is a pretty strong counter argument.  BP may be better given the condition, but how can you claim it renders everything else obsolete-worthless when other weapons can get the job done? If 3 enemies spawn out a doorway for defense, it's only marginally more beneficial to kill them in 2 sec than 3 sec. I struggle to see the difference. The difference shows up further into endgame when 1 weapon no longer takes out the 3 enemies in a reasonable time or the player runs out of ammo trying.

 

Guess that's all I have to say. Cheers.

[Adaptor-Face]

but but.... boltor prime is not even the "Best weapon" in the game, because there is no "Best". "Best" is relative. there are tiers yes, but no "Best weapon". boltor might be a good single target gun, but nothing more. It's ammo consumption out weighs its usability later. you say boltor wipes the floor, what about the phage, which wipes the floor, the walls, the roof and the next room without even trying

[noveltyhero]

I think prime weapons should be mastery locked. That way if a MR 15 has Boltor P it is different than if an MR2 has it, which by the way I have seen. A lot. Rhino P-Boltor P loadout happens a lot, too much in lower missions and it just annoys me because you can buy power. Go to MR2 and then you can buy a lot of power, too much. MR locking seems like a good way to start balancing weapons as well as putting skill behind it.

 

i.e The DPS of Boltor P will differ if it had:https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/292292-how-to-spray-and-not-pray-spray-patterns-suggestion/

 

With a lot of recoil and/or a complicated pattern only more experienced users will be able to use it effectively, so if it is used uneffectively you can expect its DPS to heavily decrease. There are more ways to balance weapons other than flat statistical changes

[Azawarau]

but but.... boltor prime is not even the "Best weapon" in the game, because there is no "Best". "Best" is relative. there are tiers yes, but no "Best weapon". boltor might be a good single target gun, but nothing more. It's ammo consumption out weighs its usability later. you say boltor wipes the floor, what about the phage, which wipes the floor, the walls, the roof and the next room without even trying

Best of the automatic rifles

 

You cant really compare it to other weapon types that way

[AandOE]

Why don't we simply introduce a weapon that scales its damage/everything relative to the enemy levels around it? Then that weapon can be better than everything else, while also not--at the same time. Low level missions would mean that it's a terrible choice, while at high missions, it's valuable in many regards.

 

Edit: We can call it 'Strange Oro-kitty Technology'.

Edited October 4, 2014 by AandOE

[Deviantis]

Just wanted to add something I'm pretty sure everyone missed on the weapon foundry description:

 

So clearly they forgot to add the reduced range part? Personally I think bolt drop, like every other physics impact weapon in the game has, would be a fair change.

 

On that note, foundry descriptions on many weapons are quite misleading. IE Plasma Sword

[Doothers]

Just wanted to add something I'm pretty sure everyone missed on the weapon foundry description:

 

So clearly they forgot to add the reduced range part? Personally I think bolt drop, like every other physics impact weapon in the game has, would be a fair change.

 

On that note, foundry descriptions on many weapons are quite misleading. IE Plasma Sword

 

I agree. For a fair nerf for the Boltor Prime, reduce it's bolt drop. That or make all of the weapons descriptions "not" misleading

[Racter]

Trolling wont get you anywhere

 

Star chart and void T 4s

 

Anything infinite content beyond lvl 45-50 shouldnt be balanced around

 

Youre wrong

 

Not at all trolling. Any weapon in the game with equivalent mods will royally stomp the mobs you're saying the Boltor P is OP against. Furthermore, if you're not talking about endless content, there is no point in discussing balance period, because everything is overpowered. Smite and Psychic Bolts are OP. Fireball is god tier. Tesla Coils are too strong. Null Star is game breaking.

 

I mean ffs you're talking about content that slash and dash 1-2 shots mobs in and complaining something is OP there? Give me a break.

[MechaTails]

Dual Cleavers > Butt-tor Prime

[Azawarau]

Just wanted to add something I'm pretty sure everyone missed on the weapon foundry description:

 

So clearly they forgot to add the reduced range part? Personally I think bolt drop, like every other physics impact weapon in the game has, would be a fair change.

 

On that note, foundry descriptions on many weapons are quite misleading. IE Plasma Sword

Also a great change

 

Not at all trolling. Any weapon in the game with equivalent mods will royally stomp the mobs you're saying the Boltor P is OP against. Furthermore, if you're not talking about endless content, there is no point in discussing balance period, because everything is overpowered. Smite and Psychic Bolts are OP. Fireball is god tier. Tesla Coils are too strong. Null Star is game breaking.

 

I mean ffs you're talking about content that slash and dash 1-2 shots mobs in and complaining something is OP there? Give me a break.

Not every weapon can handle lvl 50 enemies effectively and you know that as well as i do

 

And thats entirely beside the point

 

Im not here to argue about DEs balancing issues

 

Boltor prime needs a nerf and any balance based on infinite content has no place here

 

Youre also greatly overestimating random powers

[Volume]

Weapon balance has always been an odd question in this game, and co-op PvE-based games in general, but I think it's pretty obvious that something is wrong with Boltor Prime.

 

If it must retain its ridiculous current power level, lock it behind mastery rank 9 or something.

[Monolake]

 

Not at all trolling. Any weapon in the game with equivalent mods will royally stomp the mobs you're saying the Boltor P is OP against. Furthermore, if you're not talking about endless content, there is no point in discussing balance period, because everything is overpowered. Smite and Psychic Bolts are OP. Fireball is god tier. Tesla Coils are too strong. Null Star is game breaking.

 

I mean ffs you're talking about content that slash and dash 1-2 shots mobs in and complaining something is OP there? Give me a break.

 

While you can faceroll any normal 'DE-approved content' with any weapon with maxed mods, even with Braton and Lato, crappy abilities wont do anything past low levels, dont exaggerate.

[Vanadium]

Just wanted to add something I'm pretty sure everyone missed on the weapon foundry description:

 

So clearly they forgot to add the reduced range part? Personally I think bolt drop, like every other physics impact weapon in the game has, would be a fair change.

 

On that note, foundry descriptions on many weapons are quite misleading. IE Plasma Sword

 

I interpreted that as "falloff for a rifle", which would have been interesting. Then I took it out and found it was just like my vanilla Boltor, only it rekt the whole game.

 

Nerf Boltor Prime, pl0x. I'm tired of going in to a game with the 3 other guys using Boltor Prime (while I have my Dread, which is still better). If only because it's boring to see half the playerbase using it. It almost makes me miss the days of people running around with Pentas, Ogrises, and Somas, blowing themselves up or doing minimal damage past 40 min. At least explosive weapons have a "use with caution" attached to them (and Soma ain't OP anymore, thanks again to more powercreep).

 

This is coming from a guy who wants to use his Boltor Prime. It's sitting in my arsenal with 2 formas on it. I had my fun with it, but now I'm done. It's kinda like Rhino: easy mode for Warframe. I loved the Boltor, it was the first weapon I ever potatoed. The Boltor Prime, appearance-wise, is a worthy successor (unlike Burston Prime or Paris Prime). But it really feels like I'm cheating when I pull that weapon out of the arsenal.

 

 

Not at all trolling. Any weapon in the game with equivalent mods will royally stomp the mobs you're saying the Boltor P is OP against. Furthermore, if you're not talking about endless content, there is no point in discussing balance period, because everything is overpowered. Smite and Psychic Bolts are OP. Fireball is god tier. Tesla Coils are too strong. Null Star is game breaking.

 

 

I mean ffs you're talking about content that slash and dash 1-2 shots mobs in and complaining something is OP there? Give me a break.

 

ROFLMAO NULLSTAR GAMEBREAKING?!?! PSYCHIC BOLTS OP?!?!

 

Geez, either you're really new (welcome :D) or you are trolling. You seriously made me lol. I laughed at what you said like it was a Will Ferrel SNL skit. So, good trolling.

 

Edited October 7, 2014 by Go4tfi5h

[DSpite]

Just as a side note, I have my U14 test account that I now actually play more then my primary, and on the primary, when Alerts come up - sorry OP - I do run a Rhino Prime/Boltor Prime (4 Forma), I mean, I just want to get the damn Alert over and done with after all, but on my U14 one, I almost exclusively run an Excalibur/Glaive setup (Latron Wraith for sniping at range).

 

I'm just saying that personally, making major changes to guns seems not the right direction to go at this stage of the game, and would rather that the game itself stepped up it's "game" to not simply throw enemies at us in nice straight lines all the frigging time, and make certain weapons "too efficient" simply because we can face one doorway or hallway and hold down the trigger.

 

One long range moving sniper and a Boltor Prime is next to useless, but if the game keeps marching things directly into gun barrels ... well.

[Monolake]

Just as a side note, I have my U14 test account that I now actually play more then my primary, and on the primary, when Alerts come up - sorry OP - I do run a Rhino Prime/Boltor Prime (4 Forma), I mean, I just want to get the damn Alert over and done with after all, but on my U14 one, I almost exclusively run an Excalibur/Glaive setup (Latron Wraith for sniping at range).

 

I'm just saying that personally, making major changes to guns seems not the right direction to go at this stage of the game, and would rather that the game itself stepped up it's "game" to not simply throw enemies at us in nice straight lines all the frigging time, and make certain weapons "too efficient" simply because we can face one doorway or hallway and hold down the trigger.

 

One long range moving sniper and a Boltor Prime is next to useless, but if the game keeps marching things directly into gun barrels ... well.

Any advanced AI is meaningless when players can kill everything in few seconds.  Or you start to resort to cheap shots like this proposal with a sniper  - nothing good or fun about getting shot from out of nowhere. 

[Zarlockk]

Piece of Advice...Try to solo with it in Void and lets see when you start crying for buff instead. It is fine as it is. And DPS is not always most important. You may argue that Boltor Prime is better than Paris Prime in terms of DPS. But in HIgh Levels like 50+ Boltor Prime will fall off extremely hard while Paris Prime will keep 1 shooting until level 100. So what now? Nerf Paris Prime? Hate people whining for nerfs when they dont use brain or go far into the game. 

As an example I did solo T1 survival. After 35 minute mark Those gunners and MOAs started to consume too much ammo for it to kill them making It pretty much useless. While with PP in a party I was able to 1 shot in T4 1 hour in when their levels were around 100.

[The_Diabetes]

Paris Prime/ Dread are better than boltor prime in challenging content (they beat out every other weapon in the game by an enormous margin as long as you can find a way to corral enemies through a hallway). Not to mention that brakk/marelok and a couple of other weapons are every bit as good as the boltor prime.

 

Why do people with no clue about balance yell the loudest?

[Azawarau]

Piece of Advice...Try to solo with it in Void and lets see when you start crying for buff instead. It is fine as it is. And DPS is not always most important. You may argue that Boltor Prime is better than Paris Prime in terms of DPS. But in HIgh Levels like 50+ Boltor Prime will fall off extremely hard while Paris Prime will keep 1 shooting until level 100. So what now? Nerf Paris Prime? Hate people whining for nerfs when they dont use brain or go far into the game. 

As an example I did solo T1 survival. After 35 minute mark Those gunners and MOAs started to consume too much ammo for it to kill them making It pretty much useless. While with PP in a party I was able to 1 shot in T4 1 hour in when their levels were around 100.

Of course not

 

Paris prime and Dread have extreme limitations with aiming,crowd killing ability,travel time and arc, and having a charge time

 

Thats the balance for them

 

Youre comparing apples and oranges as well

 

How about you compare the boltor to another full auto weapon before thinking youve made a decent point

[Naftal]

Paris prime and Dread have extreme limitations... ...crowd killing ability...

Not really, the innate punch through makes it easy to deal with groups. Especially if you are good at moving and positioning yourself.

[Azawarau]

Not really, the innate punch through makes it easy to deal with groups. Especially if you are good at moving and positioning yourself.

Compared to automatic weapons?

 

The only weapon like a bow that does that efficiently is the Lanka

[Naftal]

Compared to automatic weapons?

 

The only weapon like a bow that does that efficiently is the Lanka

Have you never used Dread/Paris Prime or wtf?

[Seanjuju]

Paris Prime/ Dread are better than boltor prime in challenging content (they beat out every other weapon in the game by an enormous margin as long as you can find a way to corral enemies through a hallway). Not to mention that brakk/marelok and a couple of other weapons are every bit as good as the boltor prime.

This is sort of how I feel.

 

Boltor Prime is a good endgame weapon with a fair number of drawbacks. I don't understand the argument being presented here.

[SgtFlex]

The Boltor Prime is the most annoying weapon in my aresenal at the moment.

 

I don't believe in "gimping" oneself to produce a challenge. It is boring, and not that many other people do it, making it so playing with PUGS will take advantage and use whatever opportunity they get to go as high as possible.

 

The Boltor Prime is particularly annoying to me because it has the highest DPS out of all my weapons. I keep on building at least 2 weapons or so a day, and no matter what, I can build them the same way, but if I got end-game like T4S, a Boltor Prime is practically mandatory. Not because every other weapon doesn't deal enough damage, but rather, the Boltor P deals too much damage. I've taken it so far, and over any other weapon, it just decimates the enemy. You can take this thing and eventually it'll take a clip to take down an enemy, but take any other weapon in your primary arsenal and see what happens. The Boltor just insta-pins enemies to the walls, while it takes a bit more time with anything that has armor. I'd say a nerf would be in place to put more weapons on even-ground, but I know that I'll get so much disagreement, and I have said the same thing before as above.

 

Sometimes it's not good that things are up to the community, because a lot of communities consist of powercreeps. Sure, there are a lot of people that seek as much challenge as possible as me, but it's always the same thing in my mind no matter what game. I will never gimp myself, I will use what ever advantage that I can use if other players use it (besides exploits and S#&$, I refuse to use those) and hope it's not too bad. If it's too much, then it's in need of a nerf. With too much powercreep, more objectiveless players exist, because the Boltor Prime just seems like THAT end-game weapon, there's no reason to get a different weapon for sheer power, the Boltor P is that.

[Metal1520]

-the only thing that i can see "nerfing" would be the Mastery requirement. 

 

Tiberon is MR4, Boltor P?...MR 2

 

new player hears from guys running 4 hour survivals, boltor p is the only way to go, hits first trading, buys whole botor p from market, continues without using any other weapons.

 

-in defense of the boltor p. it is terribly ammo inefficient, and without serious modding, will use up ammo very quickly.

 

-i don't mind having a weapon that is this strong, as if you want to take your endless missions to the limit, the list of weapons that are viable reduce greatly to a small handful.

 

- it should be that way, every weapon should not be viable in "endgame".  this makes players work towards something, and gives a sense of achievement once the item is gained. (still looking for despair btw... lol)

 

- i feel that the availability of the boltor p through trading is the reason this "mlgboltorprimebro" "phenomenon" is a thing in the first place.

 

- that being said. i like the trading system and don't think it should go anywhere.... quite a conundrum.