An Iron Skin Update? About Damn Time

[Taranis49]

 

 

2) "Making a frame slower is making it useless because everything is already dead by the time they catch up with everyone else" 

- That makes EVERY OTHER FRAME IN THE GAME REDUNDANT. If Rhino can excel in each and every area (health, shields, CC, damage, etc)    then give him the potential of the highest sprint speed, all the other frames who can't catch up to him will be severely under-matched. What you are    proposing is that Rhino should have no drawbacks. At all. And this is the mindset that 80% of Rhino users contain. Which is stupid. Why use a Saryn for example if you can just "Get a Rhino and your problems will go away" #Cruisemodeforlife #Spambuild2&4 

- "Most things are already dead before any other frame can get to them, because Rhino Vanguard Prime has already killed them all with superior    stats and abilities. The only reason Loki has a fast sprint speed is because when he rushes into a crowd and presses 4 repeatedly, noone dies    instantly. There's balance in there, in which Rhino has a complete lack of. And the OP's iron condom changes tilts the balance back into everyones    favor.

 

Except Rhino doesn't actually excel every area; that's one of his primary weaknesses, he's a generalist. Being a jack of all trades means being a master of none. Everything that his abilities provide is done better by another frame; IS might be decent for defense (if only at low levels), it's outmatched by Ash and Loki's invisibility and even Frost's globe, Stomp may be good for CC, but Excal, Nyx and Vauban do it better. Roar might be decent for a damage boost, but it's outmatched by M Prime and Sonar.

 

And I'm going to have to echo the idea that "slow" shouldn't be a weakness of any frame. I remember the days before Vanguard/RhiPri, when the Rhino had nothing to do because everything was already dead as-is, while his team had to wait a minute for him to huff'n'puff his way to extraction. While I'm sure some joker will argue that you can mod charge for mobility (which is outmatched in that regard by Nova, Zeph, Excal...), that only murders build diversity.

Edited July 2, 2014 by Taranis49

[Azawarau]

Except Rhino doesn't actually excel every area; that's one of his primary weaknesses, he's a generalist. Being a jack of all trades means being a master of none. Everything that his abilities provide is done better by another frame; IS might be decent for defense (if only at low levels), it's outmatched by Ash and Loki's invisibility and even Frost's globe, Stomp may be good for CC, but Excal, Nyx and Vauban do it better. Roar might be decent for a damage boost, but it's outmatched by M Prime and Sonar.

 

And I'm going to have to echo the idea that "slow" shouldn't be a weakness of any frame. I remember the days before Vanguard/RhiPri, when the Rhino had nothing to do because everything was already dead as-is, while his team had to wait a minute for him to huff'n'puff his way to extraction. While I'm sure some joker will argue that you can mod charge for mobility (which is outmatched in that regard by Nova, Zeph, Excal...), that only murders build diversity.

Ever play DFO?

 

Witch class jack of all trades and easily one of the best in game because of it

 

Probably one of the greatest strengths you can have is lacking a real weakness

 

Balance is a more powerful tool than you credit

[_Fracture8]

Except Rhino doesn't actually excel every area; that's one of his primary weaknesses, he's a generalist. Being a jack of all trades means being a master of none. Everything that his abilities provide is done better by another frame; IS might be decent for defense (if only at low levels), it's outmatched by Ash and Loki's invisibility and even Frost's globe, Stomp may be good for CC, but Excal, Nyx and Vauban do it better. Roar might be decent for a damage boost, but it's outmatched by M Prime and Sonar.

 

And I'm going to have to echo the idea that "slow" shouldn't be a weakness of any frame. I remember the days before Vanguard/RhiPri, when the Rhino had nothing to do because everything was already dead as-is, while his team had to wait a minute for him to huff'n'puff his way to extraction. While I'm sure some joker will argue that you can mod charge for mobility (which is outmatched in that regard by Nova, Zeph, Excal...), that only murders build diversity.

 

Don't you come sass me, boy. I do undestand the concept of a tank, so shut your mouth, and I am not suggesting that Rhino should be the fastest frame in the game, so do go ahead and stop shoving your words into my mouth.

 

I don't think either of you see the problem at hand.

Go on any lobby, any mission and look at what the players are using. 30% - 50% of them are Rhino's with the majority of those Rhino's having Vanguard or Prime optionals. It's ridiculous. And it's generalizing the population to the point where diversity struggles to emerge.

 

@Taranis49 - That is a good point, but like I said above people are generalizing their loadout because Rhino is the option that covers each field. If anything that should be Excalibur's role, not a tank like Rhino. 

 

@Mcl_BlueMadness - Well liking the idea of bringing Rhino up to the norm speed of every other frame doesn't sound like you know the definition of a tank. I didn't come here to sass you but merely point out that there is a flaw in Rhino that needs to be changed. And leaving the majority of Frames with an equal speed doesn't help diversity or balance Rhino in any way. If there's anything that should be suggested by using that logic its that Rhino's title should be renamed to something other than a tank because what you're agreeing with is fundamentally wrong on a design POV. Regardless your opinion is your opinion and I should say nothing more.

Edited July 5, 2014 by KilelrDrone492

[Mcl_Blue]

@Mcl_BlueMadness - Well liking the idea of bringing Rhino up to the norm speed of every other frame doesn't sound like you know the definition of a tank. I didn't come here to sass you but merely point out that there is a flaw in Rhino that needs to be changed. And leaving the majority of Frames with an equal speed doesn't help diversity or balance Rhino in any way. If there's anything that should be suggested by using that logic its that Rhino's title should be renamed to something other than a tank because what you're agreeing with is fundamentally wrong on a design POV. Regardless your opinion is your opinion and I should say nothing more.

Yes, I DO understand the definition of "tank". I play mostly tanks in most games. And no, my point is not that. My point is that 0.9 is too slow to handle, especially considering the speed of the overall gameplay of Warframe. I'm not even talking about just Rhino. And yes, I do understand that to "fix" this would take more than just simply buffing their speed to 1, but it doesn't change my point that I think below 1 is exceedingly slow.

Edited July 5, 2014 by Mcl_BlueMadness

[Vyet]

Man I think the movement slow while Ironskin is active is a really great idea. That leaves you with some interesting decisions to make as a player that you didn't have before. I think it should probably be either the same as now with a minor speed boost reduction and a dmg % reduction on top of that OR a humongous shield with tons of mitigation and a massive speed decrease, but it only lasts a short time.  Either way, rhino needs a change. He's to good at everything and has no drawbacks. Either a nerf needs to happen or (much more preferably) some downsides need to come with an updated iron skin mechanic. 

[xXHunterzzzXx]

Totally agree with this topic i raised the same topic about nerfing rhino... And all rihno noobs where crying no no dont kill my love lol

[xXHunterzzzXx]

Man I think the movement slow while Ironskin is active is a really great idea. That leaves you with some interesting decisions to make as a player that you didn't have before. I think it should probably be either the same as now with a minor speed boost reduction and a dmg % reduction on top of that OR a humongous shield with tons of mitigation and a massive speed decrease, but it only lasts a short time.  Either way, rhino needs a change. He's to good at everything and has no drawbacks. Either a nerf needs to happen or (much more preferably) some downsides need to come with an updated iron skin mechanic.

He needs somekind of another nerf cause coptering will fix that speed so not only speed reduction but something else .. For example damage reduction or something i dont know

[Beas7ie]

I just ant to be able to parry

[_Fracture8]

Yes, I DO understand the definition of "tank". I play mostly tanks in most games. And no, my point is not that. My point is that 0.9 is too slow to handle, especially considering the speed of the overall gameplay of Warframe. I'm not even talking about just Rhino. And yes, I do understand that to "fix" this would take more than just simply buffing their speed to 1, but it doesn't change my point that I think below 1 is exceedingly slow.

 

But you see, DE has already buffed Rhino to a speed of 1.0 with his prime variant. If we were to change the current Rhino to suit that; what do you think all those people who spent so much of their own time/money trying to get a Prime going to think about if the original Rhino is taken up to the same standard. Noone wants this. Not the people who invested who in the Prime, not the people who complain about the speed already, only the people who use the original Rhino will feel the buff. DE would have to buff Rhino Prime EVEN MORE to compensate, which is really pushing the limits of this already broken balance issue. Even then I don't see whats so wrong about a sprint speed under 1, use a frost with 0.9 sprint speed and I don't find that 0.1 difference that much of a deal when I do the occasional speed run. And to top it all off, Rhino gets the BEST Arcane helmet in the game with a 25% sprint increase with a very VERY minor drawback of -5% power strength. There are so many ways to fix Rhino' slow speed and all of these "fixes" results in virtually no drawbacks and perhaps even a massive overcompensation as a bonus, so you should have no reason to complain about slow speed. (It's almost seems as if you're saying Rhino needs a BUFF to speed, he needs one to power strength by all means, but his Prime and Vanguard need a NERF to speed as a balance)

Anyway... Back on topic, regardless of what I said earlier, the OP's sprint de-buff suggestion with Iron Skin is a little hefty. I get that there is meant to be drawbacks but there is a limit to how far you can nerf speed even with the toggle ability. -40% is quite punishing.  

 

EDIT:

And yes, I do understand that to "fix" this would take more than just simply buffing their speed to 1,

- This almost sounds like you want a Buff, please tell me I'm mistaken.

Edited July 5, 2014 by KilelrDrone492

[(PSN)brandon207_]

Iron Skin is a great ability, (was) a great ability, but overtime it's visuals have become outdated, stat indicators lacking, and another extremely useful tool for an already very strong Rhino.

Iron Skin allows Rhino's tanky stats to be further bolstered, and if built right Rhino is one of the fastest frames available as well. Rhino's original setback, at conception, was supposedly his painstakingly slow movement speed. It made sense thematically, and was potentially a very fair setback to Rhino's otherwise well-rounded capabilities. Overtime opportunities to build Rhino for speed slowly negated his slow base movement speed resulting in a frame that specializes in essentially everything, team buffs, damage, crowd control, speed and defense

Regardless of whether or not my proposed changes are the best way to both balance Rhino and bring Iron Skin into the more modern world of Warframe, an Iron Skin update needs to eventually happen regardless. The following proposed changes are to update the ability, not outright buff it.

Stat Wise: Add a damage reduction to Iron Skin that negates a certain % of all incoming damage (10/15/20/25%) to Rhino BEFORE it damages Iron Skin, this effect only lasts while Iron Skin is in effect. NOT scaling with power strength. A nerf to overall health of Iron Skin may be necessary for balance on lower levels.

Add a movement speed debuff to Rhino, slowing him when Iron Skin is active, (25/30/35/40%), this will help reinstate his weakness of being slow.

Allow Iron Skin to be turned on and off, perhaps even returning energy based on the % of Iron Skin that was left before it was deactivated.

Add proper UI that shows the amount of health remaining and the maximum amount of health Iron Skin has as well as a bar that visualizes the health of iron skin.

Visually: Replace the current Iron/Golden Crust, that looks for the most part like a visual glitch, with actual "armor", essentially solid metallic textures that replace the normal textures in significant areas, the shoulders, forearms, waist and calves. The color of this texture could be completely changed based on a specific cosmetic color option that could be added to the customization UI specifically for Rhino. If this new color option is left un-specified the armor would remain Iron/Gold/Rubedo.

UPDATE: Added a significant buff that becomes more and more useful in higher levels.

Agreed Rhino is the most overpowered Warframe

[KvotheTheArcane1]

Agreed Rhino is the most overpowered Warframe

I disagree, rhino is simply the most useful after vaub (imo) he's got roar, CC immunity, and and a massive CC in the form of stomp. And he's fast with a vanguard/prime

[Mcl_Blue]

-blablabla-

Again, not talking just about Rhino.

 

And yes, I do understand that to "fix" this would take more than just simply buffing their speed to 1,

- This almost sounds like you want a Buff, please tell me I'm mistaken.

No, it sounds like I recognize that just increasing everyone's speed from 0.9 to 1 in and of itself isn't a good solution, as doing that would require further balances to other aspects. My opinion still stands.

[VentiGlondi]

Personally, I disagree with the speed debuff idea. I see your point, don't get me wrong, but from my experience all that you get from making a frame slower is making it useless because everything is already dead by the time they can catch up with everyone else. I don't think any frame should have a speed lower than 1.

The point isn't "Rhino is supposed to be the slowest".

It's "Rhino isn't supposed to be the second fastest".

[xXHunterzzzXx]

Lets face it rhino is OP AND HALF OF WARFRAME IS CRYING THAT HE IS NOT CAUSE THEY DONT WANT TO SEE THEIR RHINO GET NERFED

[Azawarau]

Lets face it rhino is OP AND HALF OF WARFRAME IS CRYING THAT HE IS NOT CAUSE THEY DONT WANT TO SEE THEIR RHINO GET NERFED

Hardly

 

Outside of early missions hes right on key

[Archwizard]

Iron Skin giving you some form of slow would make using Iron Skin an actual decision you have to think about if you'll do it or not. For one side, you like the speed it brings with NOT using Iron Skin. From the other side, you like the extra health and immunity to non-damage knockdowns it gives And possible over-all damage reduction it brings (PS, making damage reduce a percentage of dmg wouldn't give it effective health, it would give proportionate health, there's some difference.). So you weight down both options and decide what is best for you, instead of it being a non-option. Because right now you just switch it on without thinking about it.

 

But you can't turn Iron Skin off, nor does it wear off on its own. That alone makes it less of a "I can use this now but I have to account for X" emergency button, and more a "Do I want to gimp myself by X for potentially this whole mission?" decision (even if only used in combat, if it doesn't fully deplete by the end of every hallway skirmish). All this would serve to accomplish is reduce Rhino's effectiveness in lower level missions, rather than encourage advanced play.

[_Fracture8]

 

Again, not talking just about Rhino.

 

No, it sounds like I recognize that just increasing everyone's speed from 0.9 to 1 in and of itself isn't a good solution, as doing that would require further balances to other aspects. My opinion still stands.

 

Ok wait a minute, you were just complaining about slow speeds and now it isn't a good enough solution? This is quite contradictory. 

 

I don't think any frame should have a speed lower than 1.

 

I'm curious to see what you would actually like to be changed because I don't think either of us are seeing the points of each others argument fully here. Tbh, if what your going on from the first quote states is correct, you want a power strength buff (or something equivalent) which I'm completely fine with (correct me if I'm wrong). HOWEVER like I mentioned earlier Rhino should not have the capabilities of a tank with none of the offsets, the offset being poor speed. All of which can be fixed easily with Prime or Vanguard.

 

The point isn't "Rhino is supposed to be the slowest".

It's "Rhino isn't supposed to be the second fastest".

 

 

^ This. +1

Edited July 6, 2014 by KilelrDrone492

[Mcl_Blue]

 

For F***'s sake stop misreading everything I say and leave me alone!

[WARLOCKE]

Rhino is not getting nerfed. Deal with it.

[Beas7ie]

Why is everyone hating on rhino?

 

Because he's a powerful yet easy to learn frame and a lot of people love to play him.  Also there is a stereotype that a lot of rhino players are jerks and A******s. 

[LukeAura]

So punish new players who can't reliably have access to his speed boosting helmet just to make him slightly less convenient for senior players?
No. 



 

[Beas7ie]

So punish new players who can't reliably have access to his speed boosting helmet just to make him slightly less convenient for senior players?

No. 

 

 

Basically OP is a Rhino hater and wants to ruin Rhino

[Aramanth]

I think one of the problems with how Rhinos' skills work is this dichotomy between wanting to take the game slow and steady and players speed running everything.  No one's going to want a rhino with iron skin on their squad if it slows them down even more- people are already forgoing power for speed just to keep pace with everyone spam sliding and spin attacking all over the place. 

 

Edited July 7, 2014 by Aramanth

[VentiGlondi]

 

I think one of the problems with how Rhinos' skills work is this dichotomy between wanting to take the game slow and steady and players speed running everything.  No one's going to want a rhino with iron skin on their squad if it slows them down even more- people are already forgoing power for speed just to keep pace with everyone spam sliding and spin attacking all over the place. 

Warframe is a racing game.

You race towards the enemy, try to kill things faster than the rest and then race to the extraction.

 

 

So punish new players who can't reliably have access to his speed boosting helmet just to make him slightly less convenient for senior players?

No.

Looking at Vanguard's stats, it was probably supposed to reduce your tankiness (or rather just Iron skin) for mobility, but they messed up the numbers. They messed up numbers really bad.

In result you just get free boost to Loki speed.

 

It would be okay to boost Rhino's speed, if Vanguard didn't exist.

 

 

And your opinion is yours. Rhino being slow makes 0 sense, and is illogical in a game where we rush off at light speed. Rhinos speed is not a flaw, no idea why this is such a difficult concept for people to get.

You're using RPG logic saying that Rhino is a tank and should soak up bullets. And then you're going against RPG logic saying tank's drawback is low speed.

But the truth, is both of these arguments are irrelevant in this game.

 

Rhino isn't going to protect anyone with his tankiness. He's going to protect them by being first to reach the enemy and being first to kill them. Just as Loki would.

Edited July 8, 2014 by VentiGlondi

[Argenex]

Sigh.

 

Another post hating on Rhino which once you go from newb-land to end game content, becomes eye-opening-ly different.

Only a person who is a good gamer and communicator can effectively utilize Rhino past 40min and not be just a waste of space.

 

I'm kinda tired of all the hate Rhino gets just because its available to new players.

 

Go hate on Nyx and her ability to scale indefinitely and be invulnerable the whole time... like level 9999 mobs and stalkers in Breeding Grounds.

 

Any dedicated player knows that Iron Skin is useless after a certain point, it might as well be made of paper.

Any dedicated player knows that Stomp is only a slightly effective 8 second 'slow the mobs down a little bit', other than that it only slows the ones caught in it, and after 40min there are so many its negligible. Its not game changing or breaking.

 

Truth is his roar is pretty spiffy late game, that's about it.

The best part about this is, if you're doing late game you don't bring that. Know why? Because you only bring stomp along with Corrosive Projection Aura, And a buttload of other mods to keep you going, so you can keep your team going. But I am betting you didn't know any of this.

 

Very few people will even let someone bring a rhino anyway to serious missions planned for serious farming & time spent, unless they know that person and know that person operates great as a rhino.

 

Rhino is fine the way he is and it takes an experienced player to even utilize him properly once mobs hit lvl 60 and beyond.

 

Stop hating on a frame you hate seeing newbs play please and take that frustration and turn that focus where it needs to be turned towards:

The fact that the regular missions everyone plays don't scale well at all once you get a couple of frames and can be breezed through with any frame with a max Rush on. (Except maybe a lvl 20 Rescue, a bit harder that.)

Thanks.

 

 

Edit:
I wanted to add that there isn't a frame I don't own (except Excalibur Prime) and I do not hate nor dislike any frame. They all have their place and use. I only mentioned Nyx here specifically, because if you're going to hate on a frame that realistically just has a nice little balance to it and is great for new players, please turn your eyes on a frame that just LOL floats across a map like there is nothing there at all. I see Nyx players float around invulnerable all the time in many missions in super absorb LOL I cant be hurt but I can move-mode. I would call that game breaking.

 

Iron Skin OP? No.

A Rhino in an experienced players hands; Pretty Damned Good. Game Breaking? Pfft No.

Edited July 8, 2014 by Argenex