Why Are Kubrows More Important Than Fixing The Core Gameplay Elements Of Warframe?

[GlamourChariot]

-SO ADULT-

 

I can respect that you actually put time into a reply and put your thoughts into words without resorting to being a galactic scale A******, a shill or a blatant hater. What you said actually makes a fair amount of sense, though it assumes a lot to work as described.

 

I'll stop $&*^ing you around now, I guess. 

 

 

You are still completely missing the point I was trying to make, tho.

 

 

(we also differ in that I am well aware this community is a S#&$hole of weeaboos, white knights and people who insult without backing or legitimate criticisms, however, all of which are cancerous in their own ways, but kudos for being able to ignore it somehow) 

[Ionus]

What the hell is this joke of an argument? ._.

[K_Shiro]

You can change values relatively fast, yes. But that's not balancing. 

 

Let's be honest: to really balance the existing weapons and frames would require a long term, comprehensive overhaul, and that would be immensely time consuming, and would take multiple patches to tweak just for the weapons that exist currently. 

 

The easiest way to achieve a relative balance is set a gold standard against which all other weapons are balanced, but that's a whole different argument. 

 

That said, of course, I personally still feel that that kind of overhaul is far more important than spess dogs, but whatever. I hardly play anymore anyway, and it's entirely possible the rest of the playerbase disagrees. 

 

It's actually pretty easy - I have done it before and it goes smoothly. DPS, criticals are easy to deal with (damn easy) so 70% of the weapons can be balanced at the snap of your finger. Only status effects can cause some complexity but even that isn't so bad. Already detailed it in another post so I'm not going to write a complete version here (most likely people aren't exactly interested in it either) but for clarity:

If you take the damage on one shot, add the crit dmg and it's probabilty, mutliply it with fire rate, you get a basic dps (yes, status effects come in here too). Now see how much damage you can deal with 1 magazine > 1 ammo and how fast you burn your reserves (nice to be able to shoot for a year but if you don't deal damage...or other side, Ogris, ton of damage, neverending ammo reserves). Comes the aoe and there you have it, the number that weapons can be compared with.

 

Small calibrations can of course happen later - but my main problem is that we are not even at the step where we need small details like that.

 

Yeah...no.

 

Balancing can't just be done relatively quickly. Many games have spent years trying to get balance right. It's a near impossible feat. Not saying I wouldn't mind them at least making an attempt at it, but saying it's something that they could just quickly do is flat out incorrect.

 

That said, DE has made it pretty clear that they don't want to balance the game. They want to keep adding newer and stronger weapons so people are compelled to keep buying platinum instead of grind for months. Power creep be damned. Their marketing department is amazing, though, the way they manage to always build hype around everything is quite impressive.

 

Nobody said anything about perfect balance but coming relatively close is fine enough in most cases. I bet you can tell about a ton of weapons that greatly differ in efficiency.

Hell, Twin gremlins have 10+10+10 dmg with 5 fire rate. Just multiply it - 150. Vipers wraith has this on 450 (!) while Akvasto (non event weapon) has 500 (!!!). The latter 2 even has higher crit chance ( vipets have 3% more crit chance and 0.5 more crit multiplier so those 2 can be considered very close despite the 50 point difference). Gremlins shoot small particles which allow for multikill if you send the enemy flying into others, yes - good luck. The difference is astonishing. Yes, this is not the most precise meter - who cares? It gives a good approximation - and that's superbly enough.

The game has tons of these. Spectra is nowhere useful, acrid was nerfed to hell, Flux is... mediocre without it's range issue - taking that into consideration though means that we have to see that the weapon is nowhere near the "useful standard".

 

Sadly you are right as DE doesn't seem to care (though I don't recall them explicitly digging their grave and saying they don't care about balance and older stuff), the issue still stands and the fact that many problems could be eased even if not completely eliminated in a game-development/programming wise nonexistent timeframe. No, not 5 minutes - but that was just a figure of speech ( I guess?), since obviously readying up your rig takes longer... (not starting up, who knows, you might have SSD).

Edited July 17, 2014 by K_Shiro

[Eruend]

Just read back a few pages and saw a few people refering to the "it's beta" excuse.

 

I'm just going to state, that though this game is still in beta, it should be treated as a full release by the player base. That excuse doesn't hold on a game this polished and stable. Only reason it still has the beta tag at all is because they aren't done putting in the features they originally planned for the game. If they manage to keep to their timeline, they will be taking the beta tag off the game by the end of this year, though I assume there will be several setbacks that'll likely push that off by about a month or so.

 

All this to say, "it's beta" does not work for Warframes. Stop trying to use that as an argument.

Edited July 17, 2014 by Eruend

[Mokkania]

Only reason it still has the beta tag at all is because they aren't done putting in the features they originally planned for the game. If they manage to keep to their timeline, they will be taking the beta tag off the game by the end of this year, though I assume there will be several setbacks that'll likely push that off by about a month or so.

I don't know to me it's exactly because of what you said that it's still possible to say it's beta, because the game is unfinished imo.

[Yaerion]

Recasting far from GD.

[xXHunterzzzXx]

Players make Warframe and not the devs?

All we people whine? None of us make a single valid point?

Please explain.

Yes ,because Devs listen to players not like half of games where they create what they want lol..And yes no one its better to talk on voice ,and not here because evruone here is just saying on everyone and cant say anything serious this pisses off. EDIT: i hate people who talk about DEVS BAD WORK like the person who raised the topic... Edited July 17, 2014 by xXHunterzzzXx

[cesmode]

I have been in and out of warframe, but my biggest issue is balance. 

 

-Stop pumping out new frames

-Stop pumping out new primes

-Stop pumping out more weapons

-Stop pumping out prime weapons.

 

-START taking OP/overused frames down a notch

-START bumping underpowered/underplayed frames up a notch

-Give us reasons to use more than just one or two abilities on certain frames

-Give me a reason to bring Volt or Mag to anything but Corpus runs

-Give me a reason to bring Sarynn to Corpus runs.

-Give me a reason to use Charge on my Rhino

-Give me a reason to use Soul Punch on Nekros.

-Give me a reason to use anything but Nova/Ogris or Penta on a ODD (mPrime + ogris = pure win...on high levels.  Put yourself up on a pirch, tell your team to go get coffee)

 

There are so many things that need to be changed.  Stop adding MORE to the game only adding to the imbalance.  Fix what is already here.

Edited July 17, 2014 by cesmode

[meIody-]

Shouldn't there be more priority on making what's already here fun and engaging, as opposed to the press-button-to-win style we have now, where all the difficulty comes from planning?

Of course, DE is one guy sitting in front of a computer with 12 arms trying to write code, 3D model, design said 3D models in a cool way, fix bugs and such. It is not, in fact, a large studio of developers who have multiple segments.

[VinylCreed]

That's the problem with releasing a game at such an early point in development:

 

They need to constantly add content to keep new players coming in and veterans interested at all times.

 

They are fixing gameplay elements slowly, but only as long as new frames, weapons or Kubrows are being released.

[cesmode]

That's the problem with releasing a game at such an early point in development:

 

They need to constantly add content to keep new players coming in and veterans interested at all times.

 

They are fixing gameplay elements slowly, but only as long as new frames, weapons or Kubrows are being released.

 

Im not sure if the game is still labeled "beta" or not...but any game that considers itself still in beta, and has a cash shop is no longer beta IMO.

[Ionus]

Im not sure if the game is still labeled "beta" or not...but any game that considers itself still in beta, and has a cash shop is no longer beta IMO.

The cash shop is there to pay their employees. DE has no big name publisher to give them an allowance to make the game.

No money=no work=no game made.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

The doggies are more important because they can be sold to people.  You cannot sell bug fixes. The only bugs/problems that I think will actually be prioritized are game breakers because they hurt everyone, even potential paying customers.

 

The cash shop is there to pay their employees.

which is irrelevant.

[Davoodoo]

Kubrow Team does not represent the full development effort, it's just one of the first 'new' things in a bit so it does have a lot of us excited, but we understand it's not for everyone.

 

Simultaneous development is occurring on (but not limited to by any means, just examples):

 

- Complete navigation/UI overhaul (https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/253837-lets-meet-pablo-and-dorian/).

- New 'New Player Experience' to address longstanding issues with our NPE.

- Quest System fundamentals - the understanding here is that this will allow for systemic quests with more meaningful gameplay (https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/249863-thank-you-for-watching-devstream-31/).

- New Mission Types polishing and testing (https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/249909-hive-sabotage-design-and-overview/).

- Dark Sector conflict Revamp/Improvements.

- Reworking Valkyr's Hysteria

 

And plenty more! There is definitely a lot to be worked on, and a lot of compelling feedback on things like Mods 2.0, Ammo 2.0 and more! We definitely still have our work cut out for us.

We are all aware that this team works on kubrows, great, we would just want 10 ppl to work on balance instead of 10 ppl working on kubrows, same thing with xbox one port, eventually it would be great if that would happen but i would still prefer if you hired 10 guys to work on current game than hire 10 guys to port it.

 

Also im well aware that community manager doesnt have much to say in this.

Edited July 17, 2014 by Davoodoo

[Ionus]

The doggies are more important because they can be sold to people. You cannot sell bug fixes. The only bugs/problems that I think will actually be prioritized are game breakers because they hurt everyone, even potential paying customers.

which is irrelevant.

How exactly is the use of a cash shop for a self publishing developer to keep their lights on irrelevant?

If you think anybody can make a game on this scale complete without money from SOMEWHERE then you're in for a rude awakening.

I also find it amusing how you're blindly accusing of the devs of not doing anything to fix the game, when in every update there is a wall of bug fixes in the patch notes. You also are assuming that a kubrow can be bought with platinum, which you have no backing for.

Edited July 17, 2014 by Ionus

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

How exactly is the use of a cash shop for a self publishing developer to keep their lights on irrelevant?

If you think anybody can make a game on this scale complete without money from SOMEWHERE then you're in for a rude awakening.

I also find it amusing how you're blindly accusing of the devs of not doing anything to fix the game, when in every update there is a wall of bug fixes in the patch notes.

Say I sell you an item.  If I sold you the item because "I needed the money" does that mean I didn't actually "sell" it to you? Because that is basically what you are claiming.  The reasoning doesn't change the action. They are already selling "goods and/or services"; it is a retail game.

 

I never said they weren't doing anything so don't try to put words into my mouth.  I just said that they are prioritizing things that they can monetized over non-game breaking changes.

[meIody-]

We are all aware that this team works on kubrows, great, we would just want 10 ppl to work on balance instead of 10 ppl working on kubrows, same thing with xbox one port, eventually it would be great if that would happen but i would still prefer if you hired 10 guys to work on current game than hire 10 guys to port it.

 

Also im well aware that community manager doesnt have much to say in this.

You clearly don't know how this works.

There are likely at least 50 (Pulled that number out of my cartridge slot) people working to solve your problems. 

[Ionus]

Say I sell you an item.  If I sold you the item because "I needed the money" does that mean I didn't actually "sell" it to you? Because that is basically what you are claiming.  The reasoning doesn't change the action. They are already selling "goods and/or services"; it is a retail game.

 

I never said they weren't doing anything so don't try to put words into my mouth.  I just said that they are prioritizing things that they can monetized over non-game breaking changes.

I'm saying this because DE has a special case in their beta status. In fact, my statement wasn't even directed at you. People need to realize that this isn't a finished game in any sense.

[Davoodoo]

You clearly don't know how this works.

There are likely at least 50 (Pulled that number out of my cartridge slot) people working to solve your problems. 

Looking at how slow it goes compared to extra content releases then i say its not enough.

[vaugahn]

Looking at how slow it goes compared to extra content releases then i say its not enough.

 

It's easy to make a new gun. Design guys build the model, they plug some numbers into a stat sheet, play it until it feels right, and then release it. Finding bugs in massive blocks of game code is not so easy.

[Davoodoo]

It's easy to make a new gun. Design guys build the model, they plug some numbers into a stat sheet, play it until it feels right, and then release it. Finding bugs in massive blocks of game code is not so easy.

Theyre studio with extensive experience in making games, i expect their product to be good, so while it might be easier to make new gun than to fix bugs, i expect them to fix bugs at timely manner.

 

Also its not only bugfixing, there is many things which you could do with improving game mechanics and balancing game. Game mechanics aside, but balancing at basic lvl could also be done by looking at spreadsheet and adjusting weapons stats yet they dont do it.

 

If you as customer dont expect quality from product then you wont get it.

Edited July 17, 2014 by Davoodoo

[Eruend]

I don't know to me it's exactly because of what you said that it's still possible to say it's beta, because the game is unfinished imo.

I never said the game wasn't in beta. I said it's not a valid excuse to be used in arguments for this game.

[meIody-]

Theyre studio with extensive experience in making games, i expect their product to be good, so while it might be easier to make new gun than to fix bugs, i expect them to fix bugs at timely manner.

 

Also its not only bugfixing, there is many things which you could do with improving game mechanics and balancing game. Game mechanics aside, but balancing at basic lvl could also be done by looking at spreadsheet and adjusting weapons stats yet they dont do it.

 

If you as customer dont expect quality from product then you wont get it.

Open beta. OPEN BETA. IT MAKES EVERYTHING OKAY.

[vaugahn]

Theyre studio with extensive experience in making games, i expect their product to be good, so while it might be easier to make new gun than to fix bugs, i expect them to fix bugs at timely manner.

 

Also its not only bugfixing, there is many things which you could do with improving game mechanics and balancing game. Game mechanics aside, but balancing at basic lvl could also be done by looking at spreadsheet and adjusting weapons stats yet they dont do it.

 

If you as customer dont expect quality from product then you wont get it.

 

I got this game for free, didn't I? Also, they pop out continuous bugfixes and balances, and unlike the vast majority of studios actually listen to and interact with their playerbase. I'm not saying the game is perfect, I'm saying we could have it a lot worse so whining about how they should drop everything and balance is ridiculous. 

[Davoodoo]

Open beta. OPEN BETA. IT MAKES EVERYTHING OKAY.

No it doesnt. Beta is supposed to be done in timely manner so you can release full product and justify charging money for it not keep it as long as possible to get money flowing for unfinished product.

 

As soon as you start charging money for any part of the game be ready for criticism.