Shotguns Need Love Too!

[Sixty5]

To begin this is a topic I have been thinking about for awhile, I even had my question about it answered on the last devstream (yay) and it was confirmed that shotguns are getting a look at at some point soon. this topic is not about that. this topic is about why they need some love and what form that love can take. Skip to the last section/paragraph if this is TL:DR material, my suggestions sum my points up decently, but I'd like you to read the whole thing =3

 

Four score and seven years ago, way back in the days of U7 the shotguns ruled Warframe, with the Hek presiding over all. However those days are now gone, and shotguns are now the weakest type of weapon (going off of mod categories) and it is time for a few buffs.

(I will say here that the Phage is exempt from all arguments here, it isn't a shotgun even if it uses shotgun mods and ammo)

 

So what is wrong with them?

 

To start with Shotguns lack a proper niche. They neither work well at dealing massive damage per hit or at dealing DPS, and even with that taken into consideration they require users to take far more risks for this lower reward. 

I think the best way to make my point here is to give you guys an example.

 

This is the Tigris. 

It is a double barreled shotgun that is rather fun to use. In Scott's words, this thing should hit like a truck. Well now, let us see just how hard it hits.

 

 

This is my Tigris, it has 6 forma in it. The mods pictured will give it the highest damage possible. Literally this is the strongest the Tigris can get. So let's see how much damage this thing does eh?

 

Well 200 base damage with a 240% boost from damage mods gives us 680 base physical damage

I get an additional +420% from my elemental mods taking the total per shot to 3536, not bad

Finally if I factor in an additional 120% from Hells Chamber this takes us to 7779.2 damage per shot.

 

Of course this isn't factoring in crits or procs, but right here I want to find the damage I can deal reliably here. So 7779.2 it is. This can be doubled to 15558.2 if you rapid fire it. Sounds strong.

 

 

Now have a look at my Paris Prime

 

No forma, and my serration isn't even maxed, but let's see how much it hits for per shot, it can hardly be better than a 6 forma shotgun that hits like a truck

 

again 200 base damage, but with a +150% damage boost gives me 500 physical damage

and then +180% from elementals gives us 1400 base damage, wow the Tigris is crapping on it.

But now we need to factor in the paris Primes guaranteed crits. That is a 4.4x damage multiplier taking it to 6160

Finally with Split chamber giving an average +90% damage buff takes it to 11704 damage per shot. 1.5x that of a completely maxed out Tigris.

 

And here is the real kicker, the Paris Prime will work at any range, whereas with damage falloff and the Tigris's spread (not helped by VS) unless you are point blank you will most likely NOT be doing your full amount of damage. 

 

Take into consideration that this is the most powerful shotgun in the game by a fairly large margin. In terms of per shot damage ANY shotgun is sub par compared to a bow, even if you have the shotgun completely maxed out.

 

 

But why is this?

 

To start with look at shotgun damage mods. +90%, +90% with +Spread, and +60% with +60% fire. That is three slots for a total of 240% extra base damage, as opposed to rifles that get 330% for two slots and pistols that get 286% for two slots. Three mod slots for less damage (slow clap)

But what about the damage from blaze?

Well here is some math to show you what happens to a weapons damage with each mod added

Green boxes are base damage mods, yellow are elemental damage. I combined the damage from mod 2 and 3 for shotguns to make the math a bit easier. The numbers in the damage row show how much damage a weapon with 100 base damage would deal with that number of mods

 

But as you can see there is a pretty big difference in how much damage your mods give you on shotguns. 

Put simply, shotgun mods are bad.

 

 

The next problem is the falloff. 

This was a legitimate fix back in the day to stop Hek sniping, but nowadays it feels kinda redundant. Vicious spread actually accomplishes the same goal. Either you run it and lose the ability to shotgun snipe, or you run it with Tainted shell and lose out on damage and DPS OR you drop Vicious Spread altogether and gimp yourself out of even more damage.

Basically the mod system has given us a means to reduce shotgun sniping without the need for damage falloff

 

 

The final two issues with shotguns I'll go over together

Status

Shotgun status chance is stupid. Either all pellets proc the same thing or none do. A per pellet chance, in the same manner shotgun crit is calculated would be a lot nicer and would make status mods actually worth it on shotguns. You wouldn't even have to buff the chance. just split it up per pellet.

Risk vs Reward

Shotguns are typically a close range type of weapon. Things like the Boar prime require you to almost be in the enemies face to hit them with everything. And even then a guy with a Soma can do the same thing faster from a safe distance, some sort of system to reward getting in close with a shotgun needs to be in the game in order to make them feel special.

 

 

 

What I would like to see done:

 

1) Falloff needs to go on true shotguns (the Brakk kinda needs it as a balance factor). Damage falloff adds little to the game when the presence of Vicious Spread acts as a regulator for sniping with these weapons.

 

2) Shotguns need to hit harder. Whether this is through buffs to either the weapons or the mods, or as I would prefer, a system that grants increased damage for the more pellets you hit an enemy with (say +5% for each additional pellet). Having the hardest hitting weapon in a category at its best outclassed by another weapon with a fairly average loadout should not happen.

 

3) Status per pellet. Even if they retained the same overall status chance this would be an improvement. It would actually give shotguns a pretty interesting niche, as well as making status a tad more real on them.

 

 

Anyways, lemme know what you think in the comments. Arnie demands it of you, FOR THE GOOD OF ALL SHOTGUNS

Edit: Fixed picture derp

Edited July 14, 2014 by Sixty5

[spacedkadet]

Excellent feedback and i agree on all points, you have all my +1's!

[DeathKoala]

Do it for Arnie.

[Brahmastra]

b-but there's already a dojo room with a shotgun in it as design.. Can't get more love!

[DeathKoala]

b-but there's already a dojo room with a shotgun in it as design.. Can't get more love!

If you're refereeing to the observatory having the Tigris barrel as part of it, they changed that a few weeks ago. They got rid of the vectis stocks being part of it as well.

Edited July 14, 2014 by DeathKoala

[yarash2110]

well i do agree, because shotguns are weak, but thats definitely not the strongest that the tigris can get to, you've got 2 utility mods that are honestly not really needed, but definitely needs a buff...

[Brahmastra]

If you're refereeing to the observatory having the Tigris barrel as part of it, they changed that a few weeks ago. They got rid of the vectis stocks being part of it as well.

oh pity.

[Anarook]

You compared a shotgun to a bow... it's apples and oranges... this is in no way a proper comparison...

Bows are literally meant for precision single target damage.

Shotguns are meant to spray and hit multiple enemies.

Apples.

Oranges.

[Sixty5]

well i do agree, because shotguns are weak, but thats definitely not the strongest that the tigris can get to, you've got 2 utility mods that are honestly not really needed, but definitely needs a buff...

Apologies, I used the wrong loadout for the SS

 

Meant to post this one

[.hack.G.U..Haseo]

+1 .. shotguns need more dmg

[Terumitsu]

I'm all for this. I really want to like shotguns in this game but leveling them is such a chore compared to a bow or rifle or what have you because they hit like a tired kitten... Comparatively.

 

What I really wish is that video games in general would also stop forgetting that shotguns are actually pretty useful beyond ten feet and tend to be astonishingly accurate at 50 meters rather than this willy-nilly spray of pellets.

 

I also kinda wish we had a slug-firing shotgun or that there would be an option for one/ the ability to change ammo over to use one.

 

 

Actually, brainstorm here, what if shotguns were able to switch ammo modes as their gimmick? That is to say, you have a rather accurate slug to shoot at things for damage but you have a low chance to trigger status while firing pellets has all those chances to cause a status effect but you might not get reliable damage due to spread? I would love that, personally.

[yarash2110]

Apologies, I used the wrong loadout for the SS

 

Meant to post this one

thats a lot better

[Tarille]

For easy fixes, I think there are 2 ways to keep Shotguns from being god tier (Which is what Hek used to be - It outclassed everything because it's higher damage output than most things and high accuracy with no falloff and low spread) but make them viable in some way or another:

 

1) Buff damage output considerably. Make them deal more damage than Rifles, but at the cost of needing to be close giving risk vs reward, this can be done either as base damage buffs to all shotguns or via mod percentage increases. - Example of this is the Brakk, highest damage output of any weapon in the game (Sustained and burst DPS) but short range to balance it out.

 

2) Buff damage so that it's on par with Rifles, but remove falloff so that they're not completely useless when shooting past a few feet (Excluding spread, especially with the Vicious Spread mod equipped) to increase their usability while making them on par with rifles at least when using correctly. - Examples of this are the Detron and Drakgoon, both of which don't have falloff and have spread that makes them not too strong when shooting at range.

 

3) Both of the above. Diversify shotguns by buffing some so they have falloff but incredible damage outputs (For example, Tigris, Boar Prime, Strun) working in a similar fashion to the Brakk. Risk vs reward. Meanwhile make other shotguns have more utility with little to no falloff but with not quite so much damage, but enough to make them viable for their fire rate, spread and magazine size to be comparable to Rifle damage outputs (For example the Hek and Sobek)

[elijahpw]

+1 for loving shotgun

[Marthrym]

Do it for Arnie.

^Yeah!

 

I'm going to wait for U14, since it's supposed to make shotguns and sniper rifles more competitive/viable/useable, even at high levels. So wait and see for me.

 

You compared a shotgun to a bow... it's apples and oranges... this is in no way a proper comparison...

Bows are literally meant for precision single target damage.

Shotguns are meant to spray and hit multiple enemies.

Shotguns are not really meant to spread the damage over a crowd, they're made to make it easier to hit stuff at close to medium range without requiring precise aim. And also to take out massive/moving targets. AND for stopping power too.^^

 

The "crowd control" shotguns are the semi-auto/automatic shotguns IMHO, because you need firerate over "spread" with crowds. Or a ground-to-ground flak gun maybe... But that would be overkill...^^'

Edited July 14, 2014 by Marthrym

[Siekier]

Great post. You've got some good points and I can't disagree with any of them.

 

Damage falloff seems like a cheap way of limiting usefulness of shotguns and it needs to be at least reduced, because right now it's kind of ridiculous.

Shoot at point blank - few thousands of damage.

Shoot at say, 20 meters - it's like throwing a rock at enemy.

 

Buffing the damage on shotguns - I totally agree. We need to actually feel the power of shotgun.

I dream that one day something similar to Claymore from ME will be added to the game. Single shot, Extremely powerful. High risk, high reward.

 

Your ideas would also allow for greater diversity in building shotguns, using them on medium range would actually make sense then.

 

I really hope that someone from the dev team will see those suggestions.

[TheErebus.]

Nah screw 'em. I'd rather use a spectra than use a shotgun (u made sixty?)


(butt seriously, I'd prefer to have some newer shotguns and generally agree with all your points.)

[Sixty5]

Nah screw 'em. I'd rather use a spectra than use a shotgun (u made sixty?)

(butt seriously, I'd prefer to have some newer shotguns and generally agree with all your points.)

New shotguns, meh

 

Making the current ones viable weapons WOOHOO

 

also 

[Nachino]

You compared a shotgun to a bow... it's apples and oranges... this is in no way a proper comparison...

Bows are literally meant for precision single target damage.

Shotguns are meant to spray and hit multiple enemies.

Apples.

Oranges.

Shotguns are not meant to hit multiple targets, they are meant to deal with enemies easily at close quarters, which a bow can do better and is not meant for.

[Sixty5]

You compared a shotgun to a bow... it's apples and oranges... this is in no way a proper comparison...

Bows are literally meant for precision single target damage.

Shotguns are meant to spray and hit multiple enemies.

Apples.

Oranges.

The comparison I was making is the difference between two weapons aimed at doing massive damage in a single shot.

 

Besides, spraying pellets over multiple enemies is meh, much more efficient to send them into a single enemies skull.

 

an apples/oranges comparison would be shotguns and the ogris.

 

Besides i do what I want.

[RealPandemonium]

Shotguns are fine; it's the other weapons that do too much damage and trivialize the game. 

[taiiat]

i think the usual suspects know my stance on Shotguns by now.

 

but i'll reiterate my understanding of why falloff is there, and i partially approve of it, as long as the trend was fairly shallow. it would incentivize Players to get closer to maximize Damage, but they could make do with the somewhat reduced if they wanted to be at quite a distance as well. 

 

in other words, making one Class of Weapons a little more engaging, without cutting off their legs.

 

 

Edit:

as a preliminary and by no means complete suggestion example - if Falloff started at say, 10m, and ended at 50m, and the Damage never fell under 50% of the original.

Edited July 14, 2014 by taiiat

[Marthrym]

Shotguns are fine; it's the other weapons that do too much damage and trivialize the game. 

^Might be a big part of the problem, indeed.

[Freelancer27]

I support this specific buff to make Shotguns attractive back in the Risk-Reward system again.

 

It's been long Shotguns were left out of the love of not dealing damage the way they should be for close-quarters. The Status effects are also nerfed in a slightly wrong term, reducing the supposed crowd control that Shotguns normally described as. Sure, I'd go for a removal of Damage drop-off, but it'll lack its "physique" for being a potential battery ram that people normally enjoy in most shotguns of many games. To me, I prefer damage and ammunition buff (a slight) to induce that need of mercilessly pulverizing your enemies with nothing but metal pellets into their faces.

 

Like Scott would meaningfully say "Shotguns need to hit like a truck." ... Or something like that.

[Filas312]

Couldn't we remove falloff and instead lower the shotgun output and give players boost for short range fire? With enough DPS one would stay back and fire, but when they'd need to do instagib they'd move closer.