De's (Small) Step Toward Pw-Like Business Strategy

[Taranis49]

K9 police units

Guard Dogs

Dogs used in War

Fire Dogs

etc.

 

Actually, even in the case of dogs in modern militaries, they're primarily used as support, i.e. to alert people of danger like explosives, search, track and rescue and the like - not be Rambo dog in the line of fire and mixing it up in actual combat against an enemy, because sending a dog to attack a dude with an AK is a great way to lose a dog that takes a lot of money and man-hours to train.

[Nitresco]

This is a statement that could come ONLY from true psychopath, so either this one IS a psychopath or brain-damaged individual that was brainwashed by a psychopath.

To be a human means to have conscience and to be able to feel emotions, if someone is unable to feel those, then he is most probably a psychopath.

Psychopath. Nihilist. Realist. Etc.

 

However, I feel this is getting derailed too far into ethics are this point. We're supposed to be discussing why this isn't a smart business strategy instead of whether or not a point of view defines mental illness. Could we get back on track?

Edited July 21, 2014 by Nitresco

[Shuuro]

Psychopath. Nihilist. Realist. Etc.

 

However, I feel this is getting derailed too far into ethics are this point. We're supposed to be discussing why this isn't a smart business strategy instead of whether or not a point of view defines mental illness. Could we get back on track?

 

I'll re-propose this idea from my page long post on page 22

 

 

 

 

This is the path I would take if I wanted to have my player-base more inclined to a breeding perspective of raising Kubrow.

 

 

The alternate method, could be a questline of some sort, so that we the players, could get the option of "fully restoring" the Orokin incubator, so we get the option of choosing our own Kubrows skins and colors, at a higher price of course. It would fit a little bit more with the lore, considering the letter we recieve, and it would make players work for that option. Who knows, make it a T4 reward quest or something. That way you can have players want to gear up and, dare I say, spend platinum trying to get the appropriate key, appropriate gear, and appropriate mods to survive said mission?

 

In the end. Many, many, many of us, do not like this randomization of Kubrow customization. We would like to have some sort of solid way to get what we want. If you want us to breed, then I suggest you take a good look into Sonic Adventure 2's Chao Garden, because it had an amazing system for breeding, and I spent months just breeding the pets and not even playing the game for the game. If you want to go lore, try for the quest system so we can obtain this perfectly restored Orokin relic, capable of breeding our Kubrows to our liking.

 

Heck, add them both in even. Best of both worlds.

 

 

Edit:

 

A better breeding system, the ability to buy eggs with predetermined color pallets (and possible patterns), and the quest to get the ability to use Platinum for a garenteed success on a Kubrow.

 

I don't know. Maybe have it so if you raise your Kubrow a very specific way, it could gain patterns that you would be unable to get by buying an egg or using the Orokin machine. This way you can buy/breed a certain type/color specific Kubrow, but still have to raise it in a specific manner to get what you want, then you could also use that Kubrow to breed with someone elses Kubrow (imprints?) so they can get that chance at your specialized pattern.

 

If you can't tell. I really liked the Chao Garden. Hah.

Edited July 21, 2014 by Shuuro

[OniDax]

Can you people stop with this slippery slope bullS#&$? PWE's problem wasn't that they had lootboxes with random stuff, it was that those lootboxes often contained gamebreaking/changing items (read: OP) and in many cases those items could only be attained via their lootboxes. What DE has done with the Kubrow color system is no different than what CS:GO does with weapon skins and cases.

 

 

Don't claim to be supported by the majority unless you can cite a source that backs you up. This thread does not contain the enough warframe players to support your claim.

 

 

lol that's not the same.

 

I think over a hundred pages of an anti-PW thread is enough of a source for you. And yes, as people keep telling you, part of the problem with PW IS the fact that they have random lockboxes.

Edited July 21, 2014 by AntoineFlemming

[Airwolfen]

Sounds like you should be looking for imprints in trade chat.

 

maybe... if imprints actually worked properly and did not turn 2 golden retriever prints into a pitbull egg.

[Liminal]

Tell that to the officer who lives behind us and owns 5 K-9 unit dogs.

They are still not regular pets (if "pets" at all).

 

Could we get back on track?

But I want to see babies being sent to war >:(

Edited July 21, 2014 by The_Doc

[noneuklid]

Appeals to emotion are another type of logical fallacy (yes, noneuklid corrected me :P).

Making legitimate claims about emotion isn't fallacious -- so, "I feel strongly about X" is fine.  Even "I feel the same way about my Kubrow as I do my real-life cat."  (Well, it might be crazy.  But it's not a fallacy, just a claim.)  But arguments of the sort, "Would you do put your real-life cat in a battlefield?" are irrelevant to the subject (real-life behavior isn't contingent on or necessarily related to behavior in video games), and attempt to appeal to the emotions someone might have about real cats.

 

I misread your post, so I just said the same thing you did.  haaa.

Edited July 21, 2014 by noneuklid

[SquirmyBurrito]

Terrible idea... We dont need a subscription fee on top of Access Prime, unless of course they do something like DCUO where every month they give you everything until you stop paying. For warframe, that would mean all the Access Primes and a certain platinum amount every month. Otherwise, no.

If you haven't noticed, this game is F2P, not a WoW subscription fee based game. I think DE loves their free-players just as much as their donating-players. Why else would they introduce new player experience and outrageous RNG? Why do we have trading and ways to do things for free?? The idea of spending money in the first place is to get ahead of the game faster. Not closing off the free players from gear and cosmetics?( only certain acceptations like exclusive purchases like Access Prime and excal's proto skin)

Spending platinum on a lottery mechanic(scrambler) for kubrow is a terrible start. Whatever cosmetics have been purchased on should be a permanent option to swap skins and pick or choose what scheme and colors I want.. PERIOD. Like warframes and sentinels. Not gamble away platinum for a pet you'll want to use all the time.

 

That was a sarcastic example of what you guys are doing. You're taking one thing DE is doing to mean that they're going to do a bunch of other stuff.

 

The game being F2P is even more of a reason for them to do whatever they want with the cosmetics. Cosmetics items are not required for you to play the game, nor do they give you any sort of advantage. This scrambler does not in any way hint or prove that they will go full retard and start sticking weapons and items behind a paid rng gate. As I said before, this is no different than CS:GO's weapon cases.

 

I think over a hundred pages of an anti-PW thread is enough of a source for you. And yes, as people keep telling you, part of the problem with PW IS the fact that they have random lockboxes.

 

No, it isn't. As an anti-PWE thread has nothing to do with being against a random cosmetic changer. PWE's problem is random lockboxes that often contain otherwise unobtainable(or extremely difficult to obtain) OP items. If you can't see the HUGE difference between gambling for cosmetics and gambling for OP items, then don't bother replying as nothing I say seems to be getting through that thick skull of yours. As I said before, this is no different than CS:GO's weapon cases.

 

maybe... if imprints actually worked properly and did not turn 2 golden retriever prints into a pitbull egg.

 

Yeah I just read about how they're kinda... shoddy

[Nitresco]

But I want to see babies being sent to war >:(

Already being done.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Making legitimate claims about emotion isn't fallacious -- so, "I feel strongly about X" is fine.  Even "I feel the same way about my Kubrow as I do my real-life cat."  (Well, it might be crazy.  But it's not a fallacy, just a claim.)  But arguments of the sort, "Would you do put your real-life cat in a battlefield?" are irrelevant to the subject (real-life behavior isn't contingent on or necessarily related to behavior in video games), and attempt to appeal to the emotions someone might have about real cats.

 

I misread your post, so I just said the same thing you did.  haaa.

FALLACIES OF PATHOS

 

"Sentimental:  arguments that appeal to emotions specifically to distract the audience from hard facts which go against the writer’s claim. 

 

In this case, as you know, I have encouraged you to use stories of incidents involving specific individuals in order to engage the emotions of your readers.  Such specific examples can be said to appeal to the sentiments of readers.  This is a valid, legitimate use of the emotional appeal, unless the story is told to distract the reader from data which go against the claim being made. 

To avoid:  Never appeal to sentiment to hide a lack of logical argument.  Use this appeal to augment logic, not distract from it."

 - http://www.odessa.edu/dept/english/mjordan/fallaciesofargument.htm

 

Our argument does not qualify as a fallacy.  Although, repeatedly, and falsely accusing us of logical fallacies could quality as Ad Hominem and Red Herring fallacies.

[noneuklid]

Our argument does not qualify as a fallacy.  Although, repeatedly, and falsely accusing us of logical fallacies could quality as Ad Hominem and Red Herring fallacies.

 

No, it'd be the fallacy fallacy.  I didn't object to the legitimate use of emotion, by the way.

[Magnagar]

That was a sarcastic example of what you guys are doing. You're taking one thing DE is doing to mean that they're going to do a bunch of other stuff.

The game being F2P is even more of a reason for them to do whatever they want with the cosmetics. Cosmetics items are not required for you to play the game, nor do they give you any sort of advantage. This scrambler does not in any way hint or prove that they will go full retard and start sticking weapons and items behind a paid rng gate. As I said before, this is no different than CS:GO's weapon cases.

But this isn't CS:GO, this is warframe? CS:GO isn't a F2P game. As customizing is a HUGE factor, why are you pro-gambling for fur patterns?? If I buy color palettes for customizing my Frame and sentinel, I think Kubrows should fall in the same line since its your personal companion. If I've already paid 4 times for fur patterns, I should be able to keep all the skins and pick or choose which one out of the 4 I bought. It's only fair considering the fur pattern itself can disappear (putting it in stasis and sometimes it dying. Possible glitch??)and to get it back, I'd have to gamble away platinum till I find what was mine before. Total non-sense, it should be a broader form of options for kubrow cosmetics. Edited July 21, 2014 by Magnagar

[Caernarvon]

RNG with people's money, reminds me of all those gachapon games.

 

Disgusting.

[SquirmyBurrito]

But this isn't CS:GO, this is warframe? CS:GO isn't a F2P game. As customizing is a HUGE factor, why are you pro-gambling for fur patterns?? If I buy color palettes for customizing my Frame and sentinel, I think Kubrows should fall in the same line since its your personal companion. If I've already paid 4 times for fur patterns, I should be able to keep all the skins and pick or choose which one out of the 4 I bought. It's only fair considering the fur pattern itself can disappear (putting it in stasis and sometimes it dying. Possible glitch??)and to get it back, I'd have to gamble away platinum till I find what was mine before. Total non-sense, it should be a broader form for kubrow cosmetics.

 

What does being F2P have to do with cosmetics? Especially in the example I brought up. 'Customizing' is a HUGE factor in CS:GO, or are you not aware of just how much money people will shell out for certain skins? CS:GO features pretty much exactly what Warframe is now trying to do with Kubrow cosmetics, and it is massively successful. I'm not saying it is going to be exactly the same, but that at least proves that the idea isn't an instant failure like some people seem to think. I'm not pro-gambling (well, not much), I just haven't deluded myself into thinking that DE has to do everything the way I want it when it comes to cosmetics. That is how frame and sentinel customization works, DE does not have to make Kubrow work that way. You think that, DE seems to disagree. A glitch does not warrant them changing their system so that it falls in line with what you want. Especially if what you want would cause a decrease in their profits (the very thing that keep this game afloat. 

 

If a glitch causes your patterns to disappear, contact support. Make sure you have a screenshot of your kubrow with the fur pattern you're claiming to have had. Maybe they can help. Now, that is how it COULD be. Your opinion does not decide how the game SHOULD be. I have already suggested a modification to the system that would allow you to retain what you have already purchased, but without potentially negatively impacting DE's profits.

Edited July 21, 2014 by SquirmyBurrito

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

No, it'd be the fallacy fallacy.  I didn't object to the legitimate use of emotion, by the way.

Not really.  Fallacy fallacy would be if I actually used a fallacy then they claimed my result was proven wrong because of it.

 

For example:"Only stupid-pooty heads deny that 2 + 2 = 4 so it must be true" That is a logical fallacy. The fallacy fallacy would claim that because I used a logical fallacy in support of the statement "2 + 2 = 4" that "2 + 2 = 4" must be false. 

 

Since I have not used a fallacy, they are engaging in ad hominem and red herring fallacies. Since they can not counter my argument successfully, they are trying to attack me, personally, to discredit me.  Red herring comes in from derailing and avoiding the conversation.

Edited July 21, 2014 by (PS4)DesecratedFlame

[Shuuro]

Not really.  Fallacy fallacy would be if I actually used a fallacy then they claimed my result was proven wrong because of it.

 

For example:"Only stupid-pooty heads deny that 2 + 2 = 4 so it must be true" That is a logical fallacy. The fallacy fallacy would claim that because I used a logical fallacy in support of the statement "2 + 2 = 4" that "2 + 2 = 4" must be false. 

 

Since I have not used a fallacy, they are engaging in ad hominem and red herring fallacies. Since they can not counter my argument successfully, they are trying to attack me, personally, to discredit me.  Red herring comes in from derailing and avoiding the conversation.

 

I'm sorry, I'm going to politely ask that everyone stop straying off topic. Please.

 

This topic is meant for discussing the introduction of randomized (RNG) payed (platinum) options into cosmetics.

 

Please stay on topic, so this thread could be taken more seriously, and stay as a discussion about RNG Platinum payed purchases..

 

Thank you.

 

 

Edit: This goes for everyone.

Edited July 21, 2014 by Shuuro

[Snougar]

130ish platinum later and I got:



Almost every scramble was a dull tone of beige, grey or brown. I know I didn't have to spend plat at all, but it is a shame.

I really hope that DE make fur patterns and colors buy-able. Or at least the colors and patterns you scramble, you get to keep and swap around whenever you want. 

I saw a reply DERebecca made about gumballs and... no offense to her, it was a great analogy, but it was not really comparable. You spend $10 on gumballs, you still have $10 worth of gumballs. They don't disappear when you buy another. 

[elele]

 

Still, however, I would like to know why you are so opposed to letting other people have options which you don't have to use and would cost you nothing.

 

Besides me being innately opposed to the idea of "customizing" a dog's color --

 

Because DE has more important things (like bug fixes) to do? You're asking them to abandon the imprint system (which took a lot of work to implement in the first place) and replace it, all the while they could have used their time and effort to do something better. 

 

Also I like the idea of imprint trading. If you can customize kubros however you want, imprint trading would be of no use. And I don't want that. 

[Hisophonic]

I myself only used the scrambler once but once is enough but there is an option not to use it.

[fractal_magnets]

Similarly, you can't have kubrow until you obtain Argon, which is barred from new players until they can do T1 missions. 

 

Argons are on Mercury now. They gave low levels a chance to get them... even solo on the first day!

[OniDax]

That's right Squirmy, resort to insults when you no longer have an argument. I've told you the problem with PWE, a problem that was highlighted in that thread and one which has been highlighted here by someone other than myself. You don't think it's a problem with PWE because you don't have a problem with random lockboxes. But others, including myself, and several people on that huge thread do have a problem with it.. That was made abundantly clear. So continue with your insults and namecalling because you're one of the few people who is ok with this random scrambler feature.

[Qloshae]

Guys, they want this thread derailed so it can be locked so DE will feel to never do anything about it.

Don't let the Kubrows = Real dogs people bait you off topic.

 

Arguments I've seen from both sides

For:

It is unethical to RNG with peoples' money.

It would earn them more money to sell 75 plat colors and those expensive patterns like for sentinels and warframes than the current system as most would probably give up after about 5 attempts which is 50 plat. (50% loss in income)

It would allow for creativity and diversity within the community.

It would bring in more people to the game (just like people get interested when you show off how much they can customize their warframes and sentinels, they will be interested about 'being able to' do the same to their kubrows).

 

Against:

It is unnecessary (time should be spent at other things).

Everyone will make their kubrow pink (DE representatives said that - if you don't beleve me, start to read from the first page until you see the DE stamp).

It is derogatory.

 

Add arguments to this if you can come up with any.

So far it seems the against side only has a single argument, the second is irrelevant and the third doesn't really matter in the end because people play dress up with their real life pets and that's legal and considered 'cute'.

 

[Davoodoo]

Argons are on Mercury now. They gave low levels a chance to get them... even solo on the first day!

From what we know its a bug.

[grillv20]

ROFL!!! Kubrows need our love and care! So why not just land on Earth, murder the whole colonies, destroy their homes, kidnap their children, only to genetically modify them so they can suit OUR needs? and if we are tired of our little slaves we can simply froze them in our freezer or dispose of them in various ways like starving them to death for example.

Paint the dog - not cool, the above (the most psychopatic and cruel mechanic I've ever seen in games) - very cool!

Complete lack of logic from DE - not the first time and nor the last.

 

The fact that its a system that they've taken and worked on so that you can actually genetically modify your animal to suit your personal taste is reason enough to not want you to get what you want without some effort involved. Do you actually think that it would be OK from their standpoint to just let players get what they want with platinum bypassing everything? The whole process of getting the kubrow you want is involving as it is. Getting the color through the market should be a gamble too tbh. Otherwise they're just making content for players that can easily be destroyed by purchasing platinum. This system was put in place to obviously give players some sort of something menial to work on in their spare time and have something cool eventually.

 

Also, if you didn't watch the stream puppy blenders were brought up several times. lol

[atpbx1]

I don't know about anyone else, but I personally don't want to put any work into playing games.

I play games for fun, it seems DE is loosing sight of that with each update.

Cut out the cash grabs, RNG nonsense, and sheer bloody minded ness and make the game fun.

Edited July 21, 2014 by atpbx1