Warframes Are Slow (According To Science)

[CY13ERPUNK]

Real life metrics and data seldomly transfer well into a game. In the end we need to try and make it feel right not make it scientifically correct.

 

completely correct

 

BUT

 

movement speed in Warframe does NOT "feel right", it feels sluggish and/or incredibly buggy/broken (ie coptering across the largest tiles in the game in a single jumping-sliding-melee-spin)

 

honestly I think a "stamina/speed test" weekend is really what Warframe needs, change up the ratios, give all frames +10-20% base movement speed, give them all +50% faster sprint speed, reduce stamina drain while sprinting by 50%, remove the INSANE acceleration from coptering (note i did NOT say to remove the melee slide spin atk, just reduce the stupidly high speed gain)

[IronWolfKnight]

I agree that Warframes need an increase in sprint speed. When Steve from Minecraft is faster than all Warframes in game, thats when you know the Warframes need a big speed boost. Even Batman from the Arkham games is more faster and he's wearing heavy armour and if you say "Because it's Batman" I'll kill you.

Edited August 20, 2014 by IronWolfKnight

[Killerkarpfen]

movement speed in Warframe does NOT "feel right", it feels sluggish and/or incredibly buggy/broken (ie coptering across the largest tiles in the game in a single jumping-sliding-melee-spin)

That is your opinion and you're entitled to it. I for one disagree.

[Casardis]

Real life metrics and data seldomly transfer well into a game. In the end we need to try and make it feel right not make it scientifically correct.

 

While this is a statement I agree with and live by when it comes to talking about video game physics in gameplay, the below response pretty much express part of what I feel.

 

completely correct

 

BUT

 

movement speed in Warframe does NOT "feel right", it feels sluggish and/or incredibly buggy/broken (ie coptering across the largest tiles in the game in a single jumping-sliding-melee-spin)

 

honestly I think a "stamina/speed test" weekend is really what Warframe needs, change up the ratios, give all frames +10-20% base movement speed, give them all +50% faster sprint speed, reduce stamina drain while sprinting by 50%, remove the INSANE acceleration from coptering (note i did NOT say to remove the melee slide spin atk, just reduce the stupidly high speed gain)

 

It's also strange that for some reason, regular movement speed isn't increased but "features" like coptering and butt-sliding (all of which have pretty much been said by DE to have become features in the game) are kept, without any official entries on how to perform them. At the very least, why aren't these "features" in the Codex's advanced training if you guys believe it's part of the game's movement mechanics now?

 

There's no need to be wishy-washy about these "features" if the official heads have confirmed that they are part of the game now, but the lack of information on it makes me think DE are still unsure whether to accept that as an actual feature or not. Adding to that, certain enemies in the game are best dealt with by using these maneuvers (butt-sliding sprint is much more effective than sprinting and sliding to dodge any projectiles, including hitscan weaponery and Ancient hooks), as if DE had them in mind when making the enemies. Following that thought, why, again, aren't these "features" explained anywhere at all?

 

If you're going to make a statement about it, please do go along with it until the end. Being dodgy about it in-game is just going to raise concerns for me and a few others in its current state, as well as how you and I, as a long-time player, should introduce it to new players. "You've got to use this buggy physics system to go faster" isn't the best way to let people know about a "core feature."

 

EDIT:

That is your opinion and you're entitled to it. I for one disagree.

 

I won't say the movements are completely sluggish, but they do need work in some areas (there's a megathread about it with lots of detailing). I've explained some of my concerns just above, but the inconsistency of things such as coptering speed (sometimes you won't copter far while other times you'll get flung across the map, and I don't see how that looks "smooth" for a quality game).

 

Lastly, we are all entitled to our opinion, but that doesn't make an opinion automatically right, nor does it make it stand on the same ground as every others, especially without an argument to back it up. Saying that phrase is almost akin to dodging critical thinking/discussion at times, which is what's needed when one wants their argument to have weight, so please, at least explain WHY you disagree because CY3ER brought some fair points/criticism, not a simple opinion to be brushed off so lightly.

Edited August 20, 2014 by Casardis

[Alphafox]

The below response pretty much express part of what I feel.

 

 

It's also strange that for some reason, regular movement speed isn't increased but "features" like coptering and butt-sliding (all of which have pretty much been said by DE to have become features in the game) are kept, without any official entries on how to perform them. At the very least, why aren't these "features" in the Codex's advanced training if you guys believe it's part of the game's movement mechanics now?

 

There's no need to be wishy-washy about these "features" if the official heads have confirmed that they are part of the game now, but the lack of information on it makes me think DE are still unsure whether to accept that as an actual feature or not. Adding to that, certain enemies in the game are best dealt with by using these maneuvers (butt-sliding sprint is much more effective than sprinting and sliding to dodge any projectiles, including hitscan weaponery and Ancient hooks), as if DE had them in mind when making the enemies. Following that thought, why, again, aren't these "features" explained anywhere at all?

 

If you're going to make a statement about it, please do go along with it until the end. Being dodgy about it in-game is just going to raise concerns for me and a few others in its current state, as well as how you and I, as a long-time player, should introduce it to new players. "You've got to use this buggy physics system to go faster" isn't the best way to let people know about a "core feature."

You could see it like rocket jumping in other games?

Never explained, but everyone learn to do it someday. Some people saw it like a ''exploit'' some as a feature, it's all up to your opinion honestly.

[Casardis]

You could see it like rocket jumping in other games?

Never explained, but everyone learn to do it someday. Some people saw it like a ''exploit'' some as a feature, it's all up to your opinion honestly.

 

That's a fair argument, but wouldn't it be better to make a turn at them into actual feature instead of leaving exactly as it is? They have the assets to work it out, along with the skills. It only takes dedication and time (both of which can be scarce depending on context, and I can't always blame them for that of course).

 

Not everything needs to hold you by the hand to explain, but there are a few things that I encourage doing so since the game almost becomes dependent on them in some encounters (as I said, how certain enemies are designed, their attack radius and hitbox, hitscan attacks, etc), unlike the rocket jump.

Edited August 20, 2014 by Casardis

[Caernarvon]

That is your opinion and you're entitled to it. I for one disagree.

 

Warframe's movement is very unresponsive and floaty compared to that of many acclaimed action games, that's a fact.

[immolator1001]

Warframe's movement is very unresponsive and floaty compared to that of many acclaimed action games, that's a fact.

Have you timed the movements? Compared fall times? Because thats how you get facts, not because you "feel" it.

[locojuan]

well, i don't use to complain about this mechanics. but coptering has been rounding my mind since the beggining. one thing i do not agree with when it comes to coptering, is that not all melee weapons have it. if it is accepted as a melee feature, then it should be inherent to every single melee weapon on the game. otherwise, i suggest that you add stats for it on the weapons that have this feature, in order to make very clear for all the player base that it is an intended feature that not all weapons share.
 

i personaly think that coptering feels more like a glitch rather than a feature. And yes, i'd rather have it removed from the game and replaced with a more polished and adjusted mechanic. the removal of the slingshot manouver, along with the endless wall-climb, in a way, is forcing players to relay on coptering even more, also forcing players to use only the melee weapons that provide this feature.

i present all this as a personal concern for the health of the game. glitchs, even if usefull, are bad publicity. therefore, i challenge you DE, as a player and a friend, to develop another mechanic, one that is intended from the start and that would replace coptering. That, or make coptering official.

 

 i love the game and i love you guys. im sure we, together, can make it even better. thanks for reading.

[Llyssa]

Wait, we're comparing the speed of a:

nearly naked human

with a tailwind

running across long, open, perfectly flat terrain

 

to a:

heavily armored zombie ninja magic thingy

with heavily pressurized air

running across short, enclosed, obstacle-filled terrain

 

and complaining they're not equal?

 

Now, if there was a place that was long and flat and obstacle-free, without any weird airpressure, with favorable prevailing winds, and we had people who were, y'know, actually people, and who weren't wearing weird magic suits.... maybe you'd have a point. You can really build up your acceleration when you've got long stretches of terrain to do it on, and you can run pretty fast when you're not wearing some weird quasi-metal thing that covers your entire body, blocking out your vision and restricting the movements of all of your joints.

 

Further, exactly where do you get the measurements of warframe speeds from? Even with those measurements, are you 100% certain that warframe "meters" are equal to earth "meters". There's nothing I've seen that says the metric system survived the fall(or rise!) of the orokin empire, and the word "meter" means "to measure", so practically any system of measurement can use the term.

[CY13ERPUNK]

That is your opinion and you're entitled to it. I for one disagree.

 

=/

 

 

-snip-

 

Lastly, we are all entitled to our opinion, but that doesn't make an opinion automatically right, nor does it make it stand on the same ground as every others, especially without an argument to back it up. Saying that phrase is almost akin to dodging critical thinking/discussion at times, which is what's needed when one wants their argument to have weight, so please, at least explain WHY you disagree because CY3ER brought some fair points/criticism, not a simple opinion to be brushed off so lightly.

 

thanks for the rational backup, but basically the response on the forums to most critical thinking is similar to what Rhinofish said

 

of course for all we know, there's some kind of corporate/in-house ruling that the DEv's "CANT/DONT talk about coptering/movement/parkour" or whatevs, obviously since im not in the building, i dont know, but it is sad to see an opportunity for discourse so quickly brushed aside =[

 

basically it's their game, we play it cuz they let us, if we dont like something, oh well, tough, get over it

 

you think something ingame looks unpolished? unprofessional? you'd like to see the game aspire to being better? (ie notionphil, diabolusursus, aure7) dont hold yer breath =/

 

its just so inconsistent, with some things there is a lot of back-and-forth community input, but with other things, not so much

 

FWIW i just dont understand, if i was whining about how my 18 forma'd angstrum was a piece of garbage now and Killerkarpfen gave me that same answer, i think it would be totally justified, but its like there is no distinction between idiotic ranting and constructive critical feedback

[PeanutMonster]

That is your opinion and you're entitled to it. I for one disagree.

 

Frost feels like he is stuck in slow motion ;_;

[Wurdyburd]

Everyone keeps bringing realism into this, but it's actually pretty hard to gauge what's realistic in this game. Sure tenno have armor, which can be imagined to be heavy, but we don't know how strong they are, or if the armor even is heavy in the first place. Outside of Earth, all the ships have some manner of artificial gravity not created by centripetal force, since the ships don't spin, so who's to say gravity's rules aren't different in there?

 

A lot of people have pointed out that Warframe's movement/physics feel off. On top of frames feeling like they're running through water,  any falling feels delayed. Someone made a video [i can't find it] showing that compared to some of the earlier beta, players fall many m/s slower now than they used to. Even though things were slower back then, everything felt solid. It felt good. Like you had physical mass. Now you just feel like a game character capable of flinging yourself off a building without taking damage, without even testing if fall damage is a mechanic.

This is due in part to the changes to melee though. Melee 1.0 demanded that you know where your enemy is, be next to him, and hit him, and that was that. Now, you have all these combos that have players flying through the air, doing weird antigravity stuff [looking at you scythes] and generally ignoring the laws of physics. It only lends to Warframe's abundance of "feels wrong man" mechanics.

 

I think that we should wait until DE comes out with changes to the parkour system before making any assumptions or speculations about what's reasonable. After all, since parkour is dependent largely on frame speed, that means that there are entire areas that frames like Rhino, Saryn, and Frost can't get to, simply because their speed roof can't get them there. For a game where parkour is partially advertised to be integral to navigating a map, that's absurd. As a slow frame, you HAVE to equip a fast melee weapon, and you HAVE to copter, or else you get left behind.

 

The real question is, not whether or not Warframe's current mechanics are wrong or unrealistic. They most definitely are. The question is, whether DE's changes to parkour and stamina will have a good impact on game flow, or if it'll maintain a broken system where the copter bug is REQUIRED to proceed at a decent pace.

[(PSN)IIIDevoidIII]

That is your opinion and you're entitled to it. I for one disagree.

I agree. It feels quite comfortable in my opinion.

[Llyssa]

o.0

Er, you don't have to copter. You can do many, many other things.(Slide, wall run, flip). I've used slower frames and still outpaced my squad by using parkour(saryn leading the pack because she did a cool series of flips and wall runs over terrain, despite being the 0.95 speed frame in a pack of 1.2s).

 

Try out the other stuff before you say it doesn't work. Not like "tried it once", but like, seriously, make an effort of it. I've mastered the art of going end to end in my dojo only using wall sprints. We've got 70-something rooms(or 80-something? We built some since I last counted), it's a bit of a chore, but it's entirely doable. When you're used to that, using that in field is a breeze.

 

In fact, the dojo is FANTASTIC for that(especially arcane dojos), because you *can't* copter there--no weapon attacks allowed. Get used to moving at insane speed around inside the dojo, and you'll be doing amazing when you leave it. That's probably the biggest complaint I have against the new dojo style--they lack the built-in obstacle course that the arcane have(trees, gates, random pillars and walls).

 

Still, try it--see what you can do, see if you can just circumnavigate a room by jumping on to or across things. If you don't have a room for that, ask for it to be built/decorated in that style, or ask if there's someone who has a dojo you could borrow for such things.

[locojuan]

=/

 

 

thanks for the rational backup, but basically the response on the forums to most critical thinking is similar to what Rhinofish said

 

of course for all we know, there's some kind of corporate/in-house ruling that the DEv's "CANT/DONT talk about coptering/movement/parkour" or whatevs, obviously since im not in the building, i dont know, but it is sad to see an opportunity for discourse so quickly brushed aside =[

 

basically it's their game, we play it cuz they let us, if we dont like something, oh well, tough, get over it

 

you think something ingame looks unpolished? unprofessional? you'd like to see the game aspire to being better? (ie notionphil, diabolusursus, aure7) dont hold yer breath =/

 

its just so inconsistent, with some things there is a lot of back-and-forth community input, but with other things, not so much

 

FWIW i just dont understand, if i was whining about how my 18 forma'd angstrum was a piece of garbage now and Killerkarpfen gave me that same answer, i think it would be totally justified, but its like there is no distinction between idiotic ranting and constructive critical feedback

with all due respect, i need to desagree with that line. They have the game because we play it. if we stop playing, there is no game. Yet, it is their game, but this particular game was meant to be build with community feedback. to silence our selves becuase it is their game, is to forget it's roots. i am not saying that we should have the final word on everything related to game mechanics and etc's, but we most definitely need to provide feedback (always in a respectul and proactive manner) to help build a better game. We work, in a way, along with DE to make our "perfect" game. DE has shared with ous this dream of theirs, lets honor this by being constuctive. the game is by and for us, players and devs all together.

now back to topic, or to coptering to be more especific. it just occurred to me that coptering could be moved to the upcoming focus system. this way, all melee could have the feature, and it would be something you have to learn and earn. making it not only an official feature, but also a "skill-progress-based" one. this was just a quick idea, didnt even think through it.

and in relation with killerkarpfen response, im quite sure he didn't mean to be elusive. lets keep in mind this a person that is working, and sometimes you just rush this kind of answers. a very honest misstake. Stop and review all your posts and make sure you have never done something like that (or worse) before you judge his response.

 im also pretty sure he will come up with a more elaborated answer as soon as he has the time.

[kubbi]

That is your opinion and you're entitled to it. I for one disagree.

 

Karpfen kun could you please provide us with more info about this?

 

Like for example I'm curious if its a thing that can be easely changed or would be time consuming? Would it require to balance the speed of everything else? Etc.

[Thalahssalyst]

That is your opinion and you're entitled to it. I for one disagree.

 

why continue to ignore the fact that the coptering is an exploit? 

if they took the wall climb why not take coptering if something had not planned as the infinite wall climb? 

I do not see an answer that makes sense, all you got to understand is that part of the game, but do not realize that this literally down or use parkour movements, to do wall jumps to get away when I can do coptering to travel half the map with a single slide?

[tomareomo]

Well, warframes use a sniper railgun like the Lanka to kill an enemy 70 metres away so I think that the metres on warframe are slightly different from the realistic metre

[Alphafox]

 

 

why continue to ignore the fact that the coptering is an exploit? 

if they took the wall climb why not take coptering if something had not planned as the infinite wall climb? 

I do not see an answer that makes sense, all you got to understand is that part of the game, but do not realize that this literally down or use parkour movements, to do wall jumps to get away when I can do coptering to travel half the map with a single slide?

 

Wait .. wait..wait.

Are you telling the devs what is a exploit, in their game? I'm sorry but it's the Dev job to decide what is a exploit and what is not.

[Llyssa]

with all due respect, i need to desagree with that line. They have the game because we play it. if we stop playing, there is no game. Yet, it is their game, but this particular game was meant to be build with community feedback. to silence our selves becuase it is their game, is to forget it's roots. i am not saying that we should have the final word on everything related to game mechanics and etc's, but we most definitely need to provide feedback (always in a respectul and proactive manner) to help build a better game. We work, in a way, along with DE to make our "perfect" game. DE has shared with ous this dream of theirs, lets honor this by being constuctive. the game is by and for us, players and devs all together.

now back to topic, or to coptering to be more especific. it just occurred to me that coptering could be moved to the upcoming focus system. this way, all melee could have the feature, and it would be something you have to learn and earn. making it not only an official feature, but also a "skill-progress-based" one. this was just a quick idea, didnt even think through it.

and in relation with killerkarpfen response, im quite sure he didn't mean to be elusive. lets keep in mind this a person that is working, and sometimes you just rush this kind of answers. a very honest misstake. Stop and review all your posts and make sure you have never done something like that (or worse) before you judge his response.

 im also pretty sure he will come up with a more elaborated answer as soon as he has the time.

I don't think he really needs to.

 

I'm not sure what perspective everyone else is working from, besides the "USAIN BOLT" theorem, but personally, it feels fine. Eveyrthing moves good, I very rarely have any moments of "this feels clunky" or "OMG WHY SO SLOW", despite the fact I use hardly any movement mods at all. (tbf, my frosts feature a rank 1 rush mod, but that's the only place out of all 20-whatever I own). The hobbled key is moderately painful, but still something you can work around.

 

There's not really anything more he can say on the subject than "it seems fine". I mean, what else is there to say? There's really nothing that his subjective perspective will offer to your subjective perspective.

 

I've already said before, I imagine much of it is the flatfooting down corridors--I don't do that, so I don't experience it, but watching other people do it makes me want to scream at them, because it does look slow. However, I'm not thinking "the game is slow", so much as "LEARN2MOVE!" while watching them.

 

Try moving a different way. See how it feels.

[drft240]

well, i don't use to complain about this mechanics. but coptering has been rounding my mind since the beggining. one thing i do not agree with when it comes to coptering, is that not all melee weapons have it. if it is accepted as a melee feature, then it should be inherent to every single melee weapon on the game. otherwise, i suggest that you add stats for it on the weapons that have this feature, in order to make very clear for all the player base that it is an intended feature that not all weapons share.

 

i personaly think that coptering feels more like a glitch rather than a feature. And yes, i'd rather have it removed from the game and replaced with a more polished and adjusted mechanic. the removal of the slingshot manouver, along with the endless wall-climb, in a way, is forcing players to relay on coptering even more, also forcing players to use only the melee weapons that provide this feature.

i present all this as a personal concern for the health of the game. glitchs, even if usefull, are bad publicity. therefore, i challenge you DE, as a player and a friend, to develop another mechanic, one that is intended from the start and that would replace coptering. That, or make coptering official.

 

 i love the game and i love you guys. im sure we, together, can make it even better. thanks for reading.

All weapons have it to some extent, it has to do with the attack speed. Try it with a weapon that you think does not have it, then try with max fury, and then with max quickening. Bonus points if you do it with max berserker with 3x speed. As the attack speed goes up the spin on the attack will go up in speed and the distance coptered will increase. A different way to look at is to take an unmodded dual zoren and test then add a maxed spoiled strike an see how much the coptering goes down. 

 

Basically it seems like it would have to do with angular momentum for the closest physics to real life, similar to a sling weapon. If you are spinning in a circle then the speed you are spinning will determine the speed and distance you travel when you leave the circle. 

 

It may also have to do with the length of the weapon if the physics are modeled something like real life physics since the radius also would matter.

[kubbi]

Wait .. wait..wait.

Are you telling the devs what is a exploit, in their game? I'm sorry but it's the Dev job to decide what is a exploit and what is not.

 

Devs make mistakes which can result in exploits. Coptering used to be an exploit but it no longer is. I remember DE stating they want to keep it as a feature in the game. So its pretty much official now.

 

Take Nova's molecular prime for example. When the balance was announced overextend gave a speed effect to enemies. They stated it wasn't intentional but people liked it and they decided to keep it.

[RSITH]

Dude these are PEOPLE IN HEAVY SUITS .... what do you expect?

[Implodingbanana]

Then what is the point of having that SI unit for waypoints or Codex Scanners?

in-game meters? its just for looks and serves no real purpose expect for measuring in-game mechanics and stuff so it does not work the same way it does in reality because you know....its a video game