Bronze/gold Not Exactly Colorblind Friendly

[Ketec]

i mistook common for uncommon and vice verse - being used to that common was the dullest/grayest.

[Loswaith]

Look at the little stars at the bottom if you can see those. Rare cores have 5 ranks but common cores only have 3. ...

Dont forget uncommons also have 5 dots.

 

We tested them in

 

http://www.rehue.net/

http://www.color-blindness.com/coblis-color-blindness-simulator/

 

The only one that seemed problematic was blue blindness, which according to the stats we found is only found on 0.001% of males and 0.03% of females. And even that one the rare is still considerably brighter than the common.

 

Not sure how to tell if these simulators are correct, but if they are I think there's still enough of a gap between the two.

No offence but you as a colour sighted person saying the gap is enough for you (or any other colour sighted person saying the same) is rather presumptious given it could be completly unnoticable by margins of the player base.  The simulators can really only give a rough guide as to what the colour blindness is.  Afaik there is a large scale to the amount of colour some people can and cant see.

 

That said even full colour vision people often have issues with bronze and gold in isolation (no direct comparison), this is a big part of the reasons games have not used the bronze/silver/gold for this kind of thing for a long time but use a grey/green/blue/gold(yellow) style breakdown.

 

You had a heap of borders done up, as you showed in the live stream, surely using 3 of them wouldnt have been too much of an issue and made the colour blind factor not that huge an issue.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Loswaith

[Vanhline]

We tested them in

 

http://www.rehue.net/

http://www.color-blindness.com/coblis-color-blindness-simulator/

 

The only one that seemed problematic was blue blindness, which according to the stats we found is only found on 0.001% of males and 0.03% of females. And even that one the rare is still considerably brighter than the common.

 

Not sure how to tell if these simulators are correct, but if they are I think there's still enough of a gap between the two.

 

the extra layer of color over each mod is completely unnecessary. we can tell the rareness of the mod with its boarder. the whole thing does not have to be gold....just remove that extra layer and fix the issue end of story.

 

in addition to that. people, up til now have been accustom to associating with the pictures of the mods rather then the written text and you have almost completely removed the picture when its in is squashed state. right now the mods are about 1/3 they're normal size from what i can tell when squished. ramp them up to 1/2 size or more, remove the layer of color over the picture then scale it all down a bit to compensate for space to allow us to more of the pic and tell what we are looking at when quickly scrolling through our list of mods.

[YourFriendlyNoggin]

The rarity of mods is not such an important piece of information that it needs such heavy tinting anyway. The new thicker borders were enough for that, right now the tinting masks the pictures which without tinting probably weren't an issue for colour blind people.

Edited August 29, 2014 by YourFriendlyNoggin

[Ganglius]

What happenend to the numbers on the fusion cores. I can't tell them apart now T-T

[LexyInvincible]

The bronze looks like poop, the silver looks like poop, and the gold looks like poop. I can't tell what's what and what's where.

 

The fact that there's no way of seeing whether the mod is rare, common, or uncommon anymore, aside from the poop coloring, is annoying.

It seems like these are more of... "rollbacks"

 

As in, they are not making things easier, they're making every thing more confusing and more difficult to read.

 

 

DE, pls. 

Pls, DE.

[PeanutMonster]

We tested them in

 

http://www.rehue.net/

http://www.color-blindness.com/coblis-color-blindness-simulator/

 

The only one that seemed problematic was blue blindness, which according to the stats we found is only found on 0.001% of males and 0.03% of females. And even that one the rare is still considerably brighter than the common.

 

Not sure how to tell if these simulators are correct, but if they are I think there's still enough of a gap between the two.

 

Or you could just bring the old mods back.

[Fubukin]

For the fusion cores:

-You could just render two new images to make the Silver and Gold versions seem more valuable.

-You could name them different. Not just Fusion Core, Fusion Core, Fusion Core and Legendary Core, but instead Common Core, Uncommon Core, Rare Core and Legendary Core.

-You could give each Rarity type its own border. Damaged, Common, Uncommon, Rare and Legendary.

For the mods themselves: The rarity tint looks like you skipped on modelling different border styles. Please have different border styles, again, simple for common to detailed for rare.

I heard this one from a game-dev a while ago:

If you want to emulate how colourblind people see the world, set your screen to greyscale. If your game still works that way, you're golden. If it doesn't, it's time for a re-design.

Designing an UI isnt about inching as closely as it gets to what some website says the majority of colourblind people can barely distinguish, this is about easy usability for everyone. It is a strange idea to not care about every single gamer and just see it in margins of error.

Screw that one guy that can't for the sake of it tell things apart that are different, just because he happens to be disabled on that particular aspect?

That's locking out that particular guy from your game, and isn't it the idea of every game dev that as many people play it as possible? Just to say it in money terms, what if that guy is that 'Whale' that F2P games are thriving of? Can you say he isn't when you lock him out from enjoying your game?

What about the dyslexic people? Most of those are too shy about it or, well, simply can't type lengthily complaints on a forum. With the new design shifting recognizeability of the mods from their images to a mere name that has to be remembered, I can see that being an big issue. Seriously, it slows me down already, when I am trying to quickly find the mod I want.

The rarity tints should be a toggle, in my opinion, toggled off by default.

Also, limiting the tint to the border and the text might be a good idea.

The tint should definitely not affect the polarity bit ni the top right though, just like it already doesn't affect the copy counter to the top left of the mod.

Looking through tons of mods to find the one you want now takes at least twice as long.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but Warframe actually expects the players to have several copies of the same mod but with different ranks. That means the mod list is, after a good amount of playtime, oh, lets say, 1200 hours, pretty long, oh, lets say nearly 2000 mods that aren't dublicates (and my collection isn't complete yet either).

I have a 24" 1080p screen about half a metre in front of me. Please let me scale the roster to my liking. Let me view it with more columns, more rows, zoom the mods out. Slim / collapse the whole 'Actions' half of the screen, that'd easily give room for 2-3 more rows.

Having a fancy UI that one can work with a controller is nice, and I am happy that console people can play this game too, but I'm sure a scaling function or collapsing gigantic icons shouldn't be to hard to implement.

Again, speaking from my own Warframe version past, the one I started with, U11 I think, felt to have the most overview, especially once you guys fixed the sorting. I love the grouping of exact copies, but more overview would be much appreciated.

Please don't design with just like two dozen mods in mind. Every single player that put more than an hour in this game has more than that by that point.

Edit:

I want to add that I do very much like the states part of the Arsenal Upgrade screen. Finally, the damage is visible on the first glance when you know where to look, without having to actually read what line still belongs to all the different damage types a weapon makes and what doesnt.

Again, though, I see from for at least another row of mods there.

Also, maybe a search field would be nice. There is room for that on the left side of the tabs and filter bar.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Fubukin

[Angelus_de_Mortiel]

Or you could just bring the old mods back.

 

Please no. I am colour-deficient and the old system was a hundred times worse for me. My deficiency is actually with close spectrum diffusion, so lime green > bright yellow | violet > royal blue | deep red > brown all are tough for me. While I do agree that bronze/silver/gold may be hard for some, I can tell bronze and gold apart much better than the old system that was outright confusing anyway... Rare mods have a red border? That was bad.

Just add some kind of non-colourised indicator on mods... doesn't have to be fancy. Llyssa made mention of having border styles vary on levels, which is a good suggestion. Even just a symbol of some kind on the card would be fine.

Reagardless of what happens, DE, do NOT go back to that old system.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Angelus_de_Mortiel

[PeanutMonster]

Please no. I am colour-deficient and the old system was a hundred times worse for me. My deficiency is actually with close spectrum diffusion, so lime green - bright yellow / violet - royal blue / deep red - brown all are tough for me. While I do agree that bronze/silver/gold may be hard for some, I can tell bronze and gold apart much better than the old system that was outright confusing anyway... Rare mods have a red border? That was bad.

Just add some kind of non-colourised indicator on mods... doesn't have to be fancy. Llyssa made mention of having border styles vary on levels, which is a good suggestion. Even just a symbol of some kind on the card would be fine.

Reagardless of what happens, DE, do NOT go back to that old system.

 

Well, another solution would be this:

 

 

There's usually a lot of empty space in that bar at the bottom of the mod card, so the rarity of the mod could be written there.

[Angelus_de_Mortiel]

Well, another solution would be this:

 

 

There's usually a lot of empty space in that bar at the bottom of the mod card, so the rarity of the mod could be written there.

 

 

Exactly. Or even just adding a C/U/R for Common/Uncommon/Rare (or B/S/G for Bronze/Silver/Gold). To be honest, though, I'd rather people not get hung up on "needing" to see the exact words "Common/Uncommon/Rare" spelled out on the card. I never liked seeing it displayed out on the mod care... It broke the immersion for me. A simple icon of some kind to signify rarity without using colour would suffice.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Angelus_de_Mortiel

[DeathLancer]

We tested them in

 

http://www.rehue.net/

http://www.color-blindness.com/coblis-color-blindness-simulator/

 

The only one that seemed problematic was blue blindness, which according to the stats we found is only found on 0.001% of males and 0.03% of females. And even that one the rare is still considerably brighter than the common.

 

Not sure how to tell if these simulators are correct, but if they are I think there's still enough of a gap between the two.

 

First of all I just have to say, the end bit there sounded kinda rude. It sounds like you're disregarding peoples disabilities because you personally think there is still enough of a gap between colors. You wouldn't truly be able to know unless you yourself are color blind or you listen to your players. 

 

But aside from there. 

Would it be too hard to put an option to switch between pre U14.5 UI and post U14.5 UI?

Colorblind people and people who don't like the new UI can use the old one while others use the new one. 

Just a thought.

[Angelus_de_Mortiel]

First of all I just have to say, the end bit there sounded kinda rude. It sounds like you're disregarding peoples disabilities because you personally think there is still enough of a gap between colors. You wouldn't truly be able to know unless you yourself are color blind or you listen to your players. 

 

But aside from there. 

Would it be too hard to put an option to switch between pre U14.5 UI and post U14.5 UI?

Colorblind people and people who don't like the new UI can use the old one while others use the new one. 

Just a thought.

 

 

Or maybe just an option in the settings for a colour-blind colour filter that extremes colours on a grey or simplified colour scale? (i.e. Red/Black = Common, Green/Grey = Uncommon, Blue/White = Rare)

The old mod colouring was even worse, so switching back is the worst answer. Other video games have a "colour-blind" mode that colours certain assets in easier tones (like COD changing the colour of names from Red = Enemiy, Green = Friendly to White = Friendly, Green = Enemy). Sounds confusing to people without colour deficiency, but playing COD: MW3 for a while, I can tell you that I could not play without that mode turned on.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Angelus_de_Mortiel

[H3dsh0t]

The problem with those sites is that it catagorises people with a disability. Most people that are coloublind are not only colourblind in 1 area, I.E. I am 80-100% deficient in green according to my Optician. However I still have problems with Blues/Purples, Oranges/Reds etc etc. At the end of the day I understand the Bronze Silver Gold thing, but its just not feasable for those that do have problems. Unless I have the 2 side by side, I can't tell the difference. Why not use some semblance of the old system in mod colouring, Common = White , Uncommon = Blue, Gold = Rare. Job done, simple and easy to tell apart.

 

As I said in my last post however, there are more problems ingame to do with colouring (red map + red target markers, locked/unlocked doors etc) and I feel that a colourblind mode is something that really should be looked at.

[Angelus_de_Mortiel]

Why not use some semblance of the old system in mod colouring, Common = White , Uncommon = Blue, Gold = Rare. Job done, simple and easy to tell apart.

 

Unfortunately, colour deficiency is greatly variable. I, personally, would have problems distinguishing the grey/white from the blue because the mod cards are never purely whire/blue/grey. It is why I hated the old colour scheme.

While I suspect my deficiency is akin to yours (green spectrum), I am not sure... the optician giving me the test in the 80's gave me the colour dot test, and said, "Yup, you're colour blind." Of course, I am not colour blind, but deficient, as I can see colours fine... I just get fuzzy when the colours get close to each other in the spectrum. It's never been a priority to have it investigated further, as it has not progressed (worsened), and it has never affected my duties in life.

Aside of my life story, H3dsh0t, how would you see a scheme of:

(Red or Black) = Common

(Green or Grey) = Uncommon

(Blue or White) = Rare.

 

To everyone else, my suggested colours would be for a colour-blind mode in the game settings only.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Angelus_de_Mortiel

[Star]

We tested them in

 

http://www.rehue.net/

http://www.color-blindness.com/coblis-color-blindness-simulator/

 

The only one that seemed problematic was blue blindness, which according to the stats we found is only found on 0.001% of males and 0.03% of females. And even that one the rare is still considerably brighter than the common.

 

Not sure how to tell if these simulators are correct, but if they are I think there's still enough of a gap between the two.

 

The way you tell they are not correct is when you start to have players of your game come forward and say "Hey. I'm color blind and I can't tell the difference between the colors you have used here."

 

So, until that somehow happens I guess you will never know!

[crafturtoemc]

They should put up a settings where you can change to colorblind mode..like green color change to blue :) and such

[YoungJeffer]

We tested them in

 

http://www.rehue.net/

http://www.color-blindness.com/coblis-color-blindness-simulator/

 

The only one that seemed problematic was blue blindness, which according to the stats we found is only found on 0.001% of males and 0.03% of females. And even that one the rare is still considerably brighter than the common.

 

Not sure how to tell if these simulators are correct, but if they are I think there's still enough of a gap between the two.

This post really rubs me the wrong way.  I don't know how everyone else read this but it sounds dismissive to me.  No mention of looking into the issue, no acknowledgment that there might be a problem, just a "well this website says we're good so whatever."

This isn't a I don't like how you nerfed my weapon or warframe post, it's a I have a disability and this change has hindered my ability to play and enjoy this game to the fullest.  There are plenty of solutions already proposed here, adding the words common, uncommon, rare back on the mods, border colors, whatever you want.  But just telling us "I think there's still enough of a gap between the two" is frankly a bit insulting.

In a game where the rarity of mods isn't really the most important thing it's a silly design decision overall imo.

[Star]

This post really rubs me the wrong way.  I don't know how everyone else read this but it sounds dismissive to me.  No mention of looking into the issue, no acknowledgment that there might be a problem, just a "well this website says we're good so whatever."

This isn't a I don't like how you nerfed my weapon or warframe post, it's a I have a disability and this change has hindered my ability to play and enjoy this game to the fullest.  There are plenty of solutions already proposed here, adding the words common, uncommon, rare back on the mods, border colors, whatever you want.  But just telling us "I think there's still enough of a gap between the two" is frankly a bit insulting.

In a game where the rarity of mods isn't really the most important thing it's a silly design decision overall imo.

I agree, it came off as very dismissive. "I checked it, so you who ( person who actually IS colorblind ) must be wrong because I ( person who is not colorblind ) used a website simulator to check how it definitely looks for you, and am therefore able and qualified to determine what you can and cannot see."

[marelooke]

I'm sorry Pablo but sites like that can only go so far as to testing whether something is colourblind friendly or not. There has been multiple problems in Warframe for quite some time (Locked/Unlocked containers/doors , Red map on exterminate with a red target marker and now the mods). Is it hugely difficult to apply the colour picker that is already in the game to UI elements and give people a choice as to their UI colour. Surely the basework is already there, it would have to be applied to the UI elements specifically. I posted nearly a year ago about colourblind problems within Warframe, and it wasn't something that was ever fully explored, but I feel that in a day and age when colourblindness is so common, not having some sort of safeguard in there is falling behind.

 

Indeed, I remember a discussion about the containers somewhere late last year. Apparently "something" was going to be done about it, I haven't noticed much of that to be honest.Tthere very recently (yesterday or two days ago or so) also was a thread about the colourpicked being unusable for colourblind people and especially *why* it is unusable.

 

Some random website cannot properly simulate colourblindness, there are too many variables. Even "normal" people see colours differently from eachother (just walk into a few clothing stores or a paint store and sooner or later you'll hear people that supposedly aren't vision impaired argue about colours) so if you have to add another slew of variables on top of that then things really become unmanageable.

 

Oh, and colourblindness itself varies wildly among different people, even within the same type of colourblindness (pretty much every male family member of mine is red/green colourblind, so trust me on this one). So it's not because you know this one colourblind guy and he thought it looked ok for him that it will be ok for the next million colourblind people that get to look at it.

 

So basically, trust us on this one, we know what we see. These colours are *not* fine. Like, at all.

 

EDIT: Let me just add that I do find it commendable that you at least tried to take our handicap into account by using those sites.

Edited August 29, 2014 by marelooke

[ElHefe]

To all ...

 

First, I will make a public admission that I am a physician

Specifically, I am a heart rhythm specialist (cardiac electrophysiologist) but my background is in molecular bioelectricity (biophysics), so I know a bit about the biophysics of vision and the genetics of color perception

I am not a ophthalmologist (eye specialist)

 

Second, I feel that accessibility for all peoples regardless of their physical/mental challenge is not only necessary but yields benefits to all that cannot be anticipated or calculated

 

Therefore I have chosen to make this issue a bit of a personal project which must start with contacting experts in the field and in particular those who have specifically worked on the problem with color monitors

 

As a VERY rudimentary start, below are some resources that may be of help as interim steps aimed at how to adjust the settings of your monitor as well as online testing for color perception deficiency:

http://www.archimedes-lab.org/colorblindnesstest.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/explora/computers/tips-solutions/color-management-color-blind

http://blog.templatemonster.com/2012/03/21/designing-colorblind-friendly-website

http://www.color-blindness.com/farnsworth-munsell-100-hue-color-vision-test

http://www/eizo.se/default.aspx?page=2&press=32

 

I can be reached by PM in these forums should anyone desire additional help but I must make a disclaimer right now that I am not offering PROFESSIONAL or BILLABLE services - only informed friendly advice

Edited August 29, 2014 by ElHefe

[Variatas]

Look at the little stars at the bottom if you can see those. Rare cores have 5 ranks but common cores only have 3.

I'm not saying that's an actual solution but until DE implements something it's better than guessing which is what you're apparently doing at the moment.

And if you can't see them (they are kind of blue/grey on grey) then that needs fixing as well as the background colour because knowing the fusion level of mods is important.

Rank isn't a reliable indicator anymore, there seem to be Rank 3 Rare and Uncommon cores dropping from Excavation.  I don't know if they've infiltrated the rest of the drop table yet.

I'm not color blind, but the shades picked are not easy on the eyes.  One thing that definitely would help is to take the filter of the picture in "collapsed" state, restricting it to the frame.  Having some kind of text or pictographic indicator on the expanded version would be great, so if you're ever confused you can confirm what color is what.

[Angelus_de_Mortiel]

<snip>

 

I am failing to see that this has to do with Warframe having a "colour-blind" setting that changes similar colouring?

[Azure.M]

Rank isn't a reliable indicator anymore, there seem to be Rank 3 Rare and Uncommon cores dropping from Excavation.  I don't know if they've infiltrated the rest of the drop table yet.

 

There have always been cores at lower than maximum rank, do you mean that there is now a new type of rare core with a maximum rank of 3? That seems weird and pointless.

 

By the way, I only just noticed those tiny little hexagons that mean the mod is equipped. With the old mods you could hover over the blue equipped icon and see what they were equipped on but with the new mods if I move my mouse down close to the hexagon they go back into collapsed form so is there any way to get that information any more?

[ElHefe]

I am failing to see that this has to do with Warframe having a "colour-blind" setting that changes similar colouring?

 

The links were intended for general information

Obviously any secondary "correction" based upon monitor settings does not get at the root of the problem but it may help some persons who have milder forms of color perception deficiency

 

Since DE has been on public record of supporting rare medical conditions (i.e. ALS, ~ 0.004%; www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25054277), it would be reasonable to assume that they may be receptive to a more common problem (i.e. color "blindness", ~ 9%; http://ghr.nlm.nih.gov.condition/color-vision-deficiency) which directly affects their customer base ...

 

I would encourage you to check the links and would greatly appreciate your feedback either in a PM or in the thread as you deem appropriate

 

Edited August 29, 2014 by ElHefe