Dark Sector Conflict Gameplay

[Rakshal]

    Be constructive or get out!

 

If you don't like PvP, you are not obliged to walk around PvP section and be toxic. I wouldn't say anything but this is just one of your negative posts on multiple PvP topics.

You sir, are amazing. :D

[xethier]

    Be constructive or get out!

 

If you don't like PvP, you are not obliged to walk around PvP section and be toxic. I wouldn't say anything but this is just one of your negative posts on multiple PvP topics.

 

If PvP didn't negatively impact PvE gameplay then I doubt you'd have people posting negative things about PvP.

One of the major concerns that the community had about introducing PvP into the game was that it would impact the PvE content.

It's not exactly as the community expected. ("balance" screwing up PvE combat) instead it's a more meta-aspect of overall accessibility with the PvE content of dark sectors.

 

Either way, maybe you should understand the frustrations that have lead to postings like the one to which you're responding.

[FoxFX]

Honestly, I feel Dark Sector Conflicts should have other different game modes where some game modes can offer better rail damage but some game modes offer better rewards.

 

Like for instance one game mode Domination would do some heavy damage to rails but offer some minimal credits/mods/resources.

 

Another Game could be which of the two teams can get to eliminate the most enemy forces while the level of the enemy forces increases based on progress.

 

Another game could include the attacking team attempting to reach a certain console and deploy a virus into the system which will require time to download and complete while the defending team must prevent that fro happening.

 

Also, I don't know if there should be some special weapons you can get from finishing a Dark Sector fight and collecting points from Dark Sector fights to gain some blueprints for these "Dark Sector weapons?"

[Severuslanskerr]

how about different instaces rated with help of conclave ratings?? similar players vs similar players

 

this will at least lead to some rough decisions if you really "must" bring your beloved boltor prime in a match if you could run a lower match just by selecting a weaker weapon?

[Rakshal]

how about different instaces rated with help of conclave ratings?? similar players vs similar players

 

this will at least lead to some rough decisions if you really "must" bring your beloved boltor prime in a match if you could run a lower match just by selecting a weaker weapon?

Conclave rating system would have to be re-balanced (for PvP, not "tactical" alerts) before that should take place. I mean I fight MR 2s that have barely any mods, weapons, n' stuff in Europa's conclave map but I'm fully decked out in that same map.

[ENTITY5]

i actually like then last DS conflicts stuff it looks promising but i have an issue with what some of this clans / alliances are setting up as credit tribute unbelievable what some of this people think is fair.....i have seen anything from 75%- to anything (up & down that scale) of greedy credit tributes which defeats the purpose of even trying to play on those missions/ rails ....as far as i am concerned i am not gonna play/pay attention to those so i can get robbed of all my efforts in huge %'s & resources....taken from my work &my battle brothers. Please cap the limits on credit tributes, etc...

Set a decent example by removing all or some of this "Toxic" greedy behaviour.....we need to remove this kind of evil from the world of warframe 

Please sort this out as its not a great thing to not be able to play this missions since is set to feed greedy people who clamp on sucking people dry!!

All we need is more variety in types of missions (would be welcome)...not good repeating on and on the same stuff all the time..

Sort the battle pay issues please.

Love the work so far...

Thanks DE

[_Fracture8]

Why do you all think this is so black and white? Can't we have BOTH gamemodes instead of endless PVP vs PVE warfare?! It's not that hard!

[KIREEK]

i actually like then last DS conflicts stuff it looks promising but i have an issue with what some of this clans / alliances are setting up as credit tribute unbelievable what some of this people think is fair.....i have seen anything from 75%- to anything (up & down that scale) of greedy credit tributes which defeats the purpose of even trying to play on those missions/ rails ....as far as i am concerned i am not gonna play/pay attention to those so i can get robbed of all my efforts in huge %'s & resources....taken from my work &my battle brothers. Please cap the limits on credit tributes, etc...

Set a decent example by removing all or some of this "Toxic" greedy behaviour.....we need to remove this kind of evil from the world of warframe 

Please sort this out as its not a great thing to not be able to play this missions since is set to feed greedy people who clamp on sucking people dry!!

All we need is more variety in types of missions (would be welcome)...not good repeating on and on the same stuff all the time..

Sort the battle pay issues please.

Love the work so far...

Thanks DE

 

That's why there is the option to join the alliance or to fight against it.

If you do not fight then that alliance has all rights to set the taxes as high as they want.

If i had a rail i would also place high taxes because that's me, i am never obligated to do it because "someone else said so"

Please stop trying to tell other players how they should play. Dark sectors are not mandatory or anything, go farm regular missions or farm dark sectors for exp.

 

If someone thinks 1% is high, do you think the rail holders (who made the effort to take the rail) are obligated to do 0%? It's all a matter of opinion if things are high or low and thank god it's the one in control that decides that.

 

Note: effort to take the rail refers to clans/alliances that actually make an effort to take a rail, many of the current alliances do not fit into this category, they have a rail but have made no efforts whatsoever, atleast not the same effort as many alliances did weeks ago

Edited September 16, 2014 by KIREEKPSO

[BrazilianJoe]

There needs to be 'red shells' and 'blue shells' so that a team cannot get an unstoppable lead. There could be a XP sharing between frames for example. 

 

Every frame will share XP with  all frames below its XP level. It gets a share for itself, and the rest is distributed to all other frames below it. 

IT DOES NOT MATTER TO WHICH TEAM THE FRAME BELONGS. All XP is shared with everyone. 

 

Frames sorted by XP gained:

 

1st frame: Keeps 30% XP. shares 70%: 5/5/10/10/10/15/15

2nd frame: Keeps 40%, shares 60%: 5/5/10/10/15/15

3rd frame: Keeps 50%, shares 50%: 5/5/10/15/15

4th frame: Keeps 60%, shares 40%: 10/10/10/15

5th frame: 70%, 30% : 10/10/10

6th frame: 80%, 20%: 10/10

7th frame: 90%/10%

8th frame: keeps 100% XP, picks Bullet Bill to get back into the fray. 

 

I imagine some players would hate it, why should I give XP to my enemy?

 

I say: Blah, to make it more competitive. So that the players rely less on frame stat advantages, and more on player strategy advantage.

 

And there should be PvE on Dark Sectors too. 

 

And we should have double the numbers of Dark Sectors. 

 

And no alliance or clan should be allowed to own more than one node per planet. 

 

And upkeep costs for multiple nodes should scale up the more nodes the same clan/alliance owns. 

 

And there should be a tournament model for invasion, like an e-sport.

 

One possible idea is laid out in:

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/308757-pvp-politics-is-perverted-consider-reworking-mechanics-dark-sectors/#entry3498634

[REDHOOOD]

There needs to be 'red shells' and 'blue shells' so that a team cannot get an unstoppable lead. There could be a XP sharing between frames for example. 

 

Every frame will share XP with  all frames below its XP level. It gets a share for itself, and the rest is distributed to all other frames below it. 

IT DOES NOT MATTER TO WHICH TEAM THE FRAME BELONGS. All XP is shared with everyone. 

 

Frames sorted by XP gained:

 

1st frame: Keeps 30% XP. shares 70%: 5/5/10/10/10/15/15

2nd frame: Keeps 40%, shares 60%: 5/5/10/10/15/15

3rd frame: Keeps 50%, shares 50%: 5/5/10/15/15

4th frame: Keeps 60%, shares 40%: 10/10/10/15

5th frame: 70%, 30% : 10/10/10

6th frame: 80%, 20%: 10/10

7th frame: 90%/10%

8th frame: keeps 100% XP, picks Bullet Bill to get back into the fray. 

 

I imagine some players would hate it, why should I give XP to my enemy?

 

I say: Blah, to make it more competitive. So that the players rely less on frame stat advantages, and more on player strategy advantage.

 

And there should be PvE on Dark Sectors too. 

 

And we should have double the numbers of Dark Sectors. 

 

And no alliance or clan should be allowed to own more than one node per planet. 

 

And upkeep costs for multiple nodes should scale up the more nodes the same clan/alliance owns. 

 

And there should be a tournament model for invasion, like an e-sport.

 

One possible idea is laid out in:

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/308757-pvp-politics-is-perverted-consider-reworking-mechanics-dark-sectors/#entry3498634

 

That is an interesting opinion. Here is mine: 

 

- Maintaining a level advantage is a strategy. It adds an extra layer of complexity in the game. Having all your mods in the beginning can be really unfair if you think of the implications. I can already think of a few builds that would make people rage. 

 

- Every frame has advantages and weakness that can be hard countered or overcome with team work. In most cases, the solution is to stop feeding the enemy team. 

 

- Alliances if they are that ambitious, should have the freedom to conquer as many planets as they want. Every game should have proportional rewards for effort. Although I agree the costs to occupy multiple nodes should be increased, it would have the unfortunate side effect of scaled up taxes to farm those nodes. This would screw over those who are not already geared to do Towers.

 

- Lets talk about e-sports when warframe pvp is finalized. 

 

I believe PvP needs some work, but I can't completely agree with these ideas. 

 

TL:DR: I think you need to think of how your suggestions would affect a wider player base.  

 

Red

 

Edit: the flow

Edited September 16, 2014 by REDHOOOD

[BrazilianJoe]

That is an interesting opinion. Here is mine: 

 

- Maintaining a level advantage is a strategy. It adds an extra layer of complexity in the game. Having all your mods in the beginning can be really unfair if you think of the implications. I can already think of a few builds that would make people rage. 

 

- Every frame has advantages and weakness that can be hard countered or overcome with team work. In most cases, the solution is to stop feeding the enemy team. 

 

- Alliances if they are that ambitious, should have the freedom to conquer as many planets as they want. Every game should have proportional rewards for effort. Although I agree the costs to occupy multiple nodes should be increased, it would have the unfortunate side effect of scaled up taxes to farm those nodes. This would screw over those who are not already geared to do Towers.

 

- Lets talk about e-sports when warframe pvp is finalized. 

 

I believe PvP needs some work, but I can't completely agree with these ideas. 

 

TL:DR: I think you need to think of how your suggestions would affect a wider player base.  

 

Red

 

Edit: the flow

 

I didn't intend my numbers to be final, they are just an idea of reducing the gap to make the PvP match more competitive. It could happen in much smaller numbers. 

 

Other team equalizer mechanics:

 

A killed player gains one level when it is killed, if all these conditions are met: 

 

It is one of the bottom 3 players on XP.

If it gains a level, it will still be at least one level (or two) below the 3rd worst player of the opposing team.

 

The defending team would be able to grow until it is close to the attacker, if the attacker takes the lead, but never surpass it. The attacker team has only 16 revives, so it will never be able to benefit too much from this mechanic. 

 

I am thinking very well about the effect those changes would have on the larger player base. 

 

Many people are complaining and being put off from playing Dark Sectors now because of the outrageous taxes, cartel, rail blocking. I'm one which just stopped playing DS. I only play if the taxes a low or zero. Once you have mechanics which are being exploited to the point of keeping people from playing a large part of the game, that's an imbalance. 

 

PvP is a twin brother  to e-sports, you can't dissociate both. Thinking of Warframe's PvP as an e-sport will change the propositions of balance to make it become a GOOD e-sporty experience. I don't say e-sport in the sense of having actual championships with professional team and real money. I say e-sports in the sense of a balanced, competitive gameplay experience, accessible to every player. 

 

There are two very different games in PvP. The grand strategy, where the cartel/taxes shenanigans are taking place and is putting off a large portion of the player base from actually going into the Dark Sectors. It is a real problem, and rules must be changed to make it fairer, more competitive. 

 

That's why I am suggesting the one rail per alliance/clan per planet. This makes it impossible for one team to own everything. Monopolies/oligopolies/cartels are never something good for the larger community. That's why in real life there are laws against them. And in this much smaller virtual community, these things could break down the retainment of players, which is bad for DE's long terms financials and our enjoyment overall. 

 

There is also the combat experience, where frame skills must have a PvP version, and other rules must be placed to make it more competitive. 

 

PvP is where the endgame is. After a player has gathered every frame and weapon, what is he to do? The hardest enemy he can face is another human intelligence and another frame. If DE does it right, PvP will become larger than the whole PvE experience. 

[MrsUnreal]

No you don't. You find Ash players spamming 4. Which ruins your gameplay. V spammed all Ash-es in Sechura. I did around 30 runs, and in about 20-26 I met Ash-es spamming BS. 

I really enjoy dark sector because its fun challenging and you can only activate your mods when you make fair kills, so in terms of balance there is some.

Ash's blade storm however is an example of a lack of balance.

 

I personally love ash and really like using him in DS, however I find it more fun when you actually have to use skill, rather than spamming ults. If you get good enough, rhino skin doesn't matter, dragon nikana's don't matter, boltors don't matter etc. If I had my way, I would nerf most waframe abilities altogether when it comes to PvP but its not my game lol. 

 

The beauty of PvP though, is learning to use your abilities properly to avoid being killed and silencing trolls and to actually complete the objectives!

 

I do think that spammy players should be penalised, i.e. limit on the amount of times you can actually use the '4' ability or something. I also think they should do something about the fact that you can camp around spawn points - when is that ever fair? Especially when you only have 20 revives for the whole squad.

 

I feel like people will complain about dark sectors because despite not playing it enough because to be fair, there are a lot less trolls in DS than there is in conclave. If you get upset for being T-bagged, lighten up / get better at it altogether (sorry).

 

I don't really care about battle pay so I have no opinion on that. 

[xethier]

eh, i'd love dark sectors if you were given a random loadout every time.

totally freakin' random.

basically give every player a random warframe, random weapons with random mods. (although keep it reasonable)

 

that ash spamming bladestorm probably wouldn't have the proper efficiency to spam the crap out of it.

players that are high mastery would have some advantage because they've probably used the weapons they're given before. 

but with random mods, they wouldn't be able to totally take advantage as they do now.

 

keep all the mods capped so even low ranked-players aren't overwhelmed by vets capped serration, level playing field.

 

it would also give players a way to see equipment they don't otherwise own and definitely put skill back into the equation.

[REDHOOOD]

I really enjoy dark sector because its fun challenging and you can only activate your mods when you make fair kills, so in terms of balance there is some.

Ash's blade storm however is an example of a lack of balance.

 

I personally love ash and really like using him in DS, however I find it more fun when you actually have to use skill, rather than spamming ults. If you get good enough, rhino skin doesn't matter, dragon nikana's don't matter, boltors don't matter etc. If I had my way, I would nerf most waframe abilities altogether when it comes to PvP but its not my game lol. 

 

The beauty of PvP though, is learning to use your abilities properly to avoid being killed and silencing trolls and to actually complete the objectives!

 

I do think that spammy players should be penalised, i.e. limit on the amount of times you can actually use the '4' ability or something. I also think they should do something about the fact that you can camp around spawn points - when is that ever fair? Especially when you only have 20 revives for the whole squad.

 

I feel like people will complain about dark sectors because despite not playing it enough because to be fair, there are a lot less trolls in DS than there is in conclave. If you get upset for being T-bagged, lighten up / get better at it altogether (sorry).

 

I don't really care about battle pay so I have no opinion on that. 

 

Nice post. When I get spawn camped and ticked off. I channel those emotions with the appropriate frame to punish them next round. I may be alittle harsh sometimes though, and I apologize to the players that basically joined the wrong game. Some of you may have witnessed this when I do my "demoralize them" speech. 

 

 

eh, i'd love dark sectors if you were given a random loadout every time.

totally freakin' random.

basically give every player a random warframe, random weapons with random mods. (although keep it reasonable)

 

that ash spamming bladestorm probably wouldn't have the proper efficiency to spam the crap out of it.

players that are high mastery would have some advantage because they've probably used the weapons they're given before. 

but with random mods, they wouldn't be able to totally take advantage as they do now.

 

keep all the mods capped so even low ranked-players aren't overwhelmed by vets capped serration, level playing field.

 

it would also give players a way to see equipment they don't otherwise own and definitely put skill back into the equation.

 

If mods were randomized, there would literally be no reason for builds in this game.

 

I also want to offer you a little advice as it sounds like you are struggling (No offense). You don't want to use Maxed Serration in pvp. The reason is because it takes up a lot of mod points and it will takes too long to get. I am aware there are polarities but if your serration is 14 for example, or 7 with polarity, you cannot get it until rifle level 4 and that is assuming it is your first mod sitting on a rifle polarity. If you would like a bench mark, my serration is at 140%, my 4th rifle mod, and has a mod capacity of 10.   

 

That is all I am sharing for now. 

 

Good luck, 

 

Red

[xethier]

-snip-

 

i'm not struggling. i do just fine when i pvp. which is a whopping 3 times.

i don't play this game for pvp. i have little to no interest in it.

not because i dislike pvp, but because i dislike playing against the same cheap, cookie-cutter tactics that always result when playing pvp in this game.

 

you said "If Mods were randomized, there would literally be no reason for builds in this game."

 

I find this funny, because 90% of the players i see in pvp use the same half-dozen builds that are completely overpowered, not very fun to play or play against and offers a very bland experience. (as pvp goes)

 

if loadouts and mods were randomized in pvp, you wouldn't have the same dull, mirage + penta + hall of mirrors and ash bladestorm spamming players in such abundance. you'd have something totally different both for you and against you. you wouldn't have people going for their perceived "best" every time. 

 

doesn't much matter to me. like i said, this game doesn't lend itself well to pvp due to it's original conception not having pvp even on the map. so those that enjoy this travesty, by all means, keep playing.

[REDHOOOD]

i'm not struggling. i do just fine when i pvp. which is a whopping 3 times.

i don't play this game for pvp. i have little to no interest in it.

not because i dislike pvp, but because i dislike playing against the same cheap, cookie-cutter tactics that always result when playing pvp in this game.

 

you said "If Mods were randomized, there would literally be no reason for builds in this game."

 

I find this funny, because 90% of the players i see in pvp use the same half-dozen builds that are completely overpowered, not very fun to play or play against and offers a very bland experience. (as pvp goes)

 

if loadouts and mods were randomized in pvp, you wouldn't have the same dull, mirage + penta + hall of mirrors and ash bladestorm spamming players in such abundance. you'd have something totally different both for you and against you. you wouldn't have people going for their perceived "best" every time. 

 

doesn't much matter to me. like i said, this game doesn't lend itself well to pvp due to it's original conception not having pvp even on the map. so those that enjoy this travesty, by all means, keep playing.

 

They can't get their full "cookie-cutter" build constantly dying. Perhaps if you play certain conclaves and have all your mods-then yes. But in dark sectors- where you need to rank up- requires you too think of the sequence of how you place your mods and forces some thought into weapon priority- you simply cannot arrange your mods randomly.

 

Correctly me if I am wrong-but if you have only pvped 3 times, you have barely scratched the surface of pvp in this game.

 

I will keep playing, thank you and good luck to you too.

 

Red 

[xethier]

They can't get their full "cookie-cutter" build constantly dying. Perhaps if you play certain conclaves and have all your mods-then yes. But in dark sectors- where you need to rank up- requires you too think of the sequence of how you place your mods and forces some thought into weapon priority- you simply cannot arrange your mods randomly.

 

Correctly me if I am wrong-but if you have only pvped 3 times, you have barely scratched the surface of pvp in this game.

 

I will keep playing, thank you and good luck to you too.

 

Red 

 

so my experience with this game, general experience with pvp and ability to extrapolate counts for nothing, nor does my feedback on a system i find to be completely broken. because i haven't wanted to endure more than a handful of matches? (to say nothing of dueling or conclaves?)

 

above is my feedback on pvp. like it or don't like it, but do NOT attempt to tell me that i don't understand it.

 

mod arrangement is not my point. having a pre-set or randomized loadout is. to reduce the nauseating frequency i see those previously mentioned "cookie cutter builds" that i (and many others apparently) find abhorrent. not to mention the innumerable other problems with the design of the game mode itself.

 

defend it if you like, but the community as a whole doesn't seem to be taking much interest in PVP as it stands currently.

Edited September 19, 2014 by xethier

[REDHOOOD]

so my experience with this game, general experience with pvp and ability to extrapolate counts for nothing, nor does my feedback on a system i find to be completely broken. because i haven't wanted to endure more than a handful of matches? (to say nothing of dueling or conclaves?)

 

above is my feedback on pvp. like it or don't like it, but do NOT attempt to tell me that i don't understand it.

 

mod arrangement is not my point. having a pre-set or randomized loadout is. to reduce the nauseating frequency i see those previously mentioned "cookie cutter builds" that i (and many others apparently) find abhorrent. not to mention the innumerable other problems with the design of the game mode itself.

 

defend it if you like, but the community as a whole doesn't seem to be taking much interest in PVP as it stands currently.

 

Pardon my directness, but I doubt our views even reflect a small fraction of the actual community. I viewed this as a friendly debate between the 2 of us - not to discredit you.

 

Allow me to use another context to explain what I am saying: You join a judo dojo and do 3 rounds of sparring - Then you tell the dojo how their system of scoring is flawed, arm bars are OP, triangles chokes are cookie cutters, rear naked chokes are broken, Figure 4 lock is unfair, your opponent should start the match one his knees (Because hes taller than you). 

 

Do you understand my point? You have not yet understood the intricacies of martial art: Leveraging your weight and/or your opponents weight, transitioning between locks and holds, sensing your opponents next move based on his movement, or how to turn his strength into his weakness.

 

There is no need to be defensive.

 

Red   

[xethier]

Pardon my directness, but I doubt our views even reflect a small fraction of the actual community. I viewed this as a friendly debate between the 2 of us - not to discredit you.

 

Allow me to use another context to explain what I am saying: You join a judo dojo and do 3 rounds of sparring - Then you tell the dojo how their system of scoring is flawed, arm bars are OP, triangles chokes are cookie cutters, rear naked chokes are broken, Figure 4 lock is unfair, your opponent should start the match one his knees (Because hes taller than you). 

 

Do you understand my point? You have not yet understood the intricacies of martial art: Leveraging your weight and/or your opponents weight, transitioning between locks and holds, sensing your opponents next move based on his movement, or how to turn his strength into his weakness.

 

There is no need to be defensive.

 

Red   

 

that's a false dichotomy.

 

i'm MR17 in this game. i've got plenty of experience within the structures of warframe. i've played pvp games since the early 90's. i've got tens of thousands of hours of experience in pvp over the years. 

 

warframe's pvp, regardless of how you want to defend the system, isn't fun for those of us that actually want diversity.

it boils down to people using the strongest combinations they can devise and doing the same cheap-guarantee-to-win tactics they can conceive.

this is usually what happens when a game that was devised for pve tries to push into pvp territory. 

 

my solution is a patch to force people to stop doing the above. is it perfect? hell no.

but it would give some relief to the system until DE goes back and starts altering the crap out of everything for pvp to thwart the unacceptable power imbalances as they exist currently.

 

i don't care about "balance" in pve, in pvp, however, it's necessary or you wind up with the system as it stands now. no matter what happens in the future with DE's alterations, the current system is FUBAR.

[REDHOOOD]

that's a false dichotomy.

 

i'm MR17 in this game. i've got plenty of experience within the structures of warframe. i've played pvp games since the early 90's. i've got tens of thousands of hours of experience in pvp over the years. 

 

warframe's pvp, regardless of how you want to defend the system, isn't fun for those of us that actually want diversity.

it boils down to people using the strongest combinations they can devise and doing the same cheap-guarantee-to-win tactics they can conceive.

this is usually what happens when a game that was devised for pve tries to push into pvp territory. 

 

my solution is a patch to force people to stop doing the above. is it perfect? hell no.

but it would give some relief to the system until DE goes back and starts altering the crap out of everything for pvp to thwart the unacceptable power imbalances as they exist currently.

 

i don't care about "balance" in pve, in pvp, however, it's necessary or you wind up with the system as it stands now. no matter what happens in the future with DE's alterations, the current system is FUBAR.

 

Thanks for the feed back.I feel our little debate is getting kinda circular and its clear we stand on opposite sides of the spectrum.

 

Lets move on.

 

Red 

[(XBOX)ShapelessHorr0r]

PvE would only work if the clan had direct control of the defenses.

PvP sucks, but it is there for a reason.

So:

B - must be built

P - movable/placeable around the base

Defense

1. add turrets B/P

2. Allow specters to guard certain areas/objectives and/or stay close to said area B/P

3. Create corrupters that will capture and designate the number if corrupt defensive units B

4.

Attackers

1. Corpus/Grineer automatically support you in order to save their friends. The more drop ships you have, the faster/more often they will spawn B

That's all I have for now.