Major Change Should = Forma Refund/re-Forma

[Seanjuju]

Lets leave legality out of this. This topic only makes a request.

 

I actually agree with this since DE very rarely gives prior warning about nerfs or changing the nature of powers. Simply out of respect for the time players have already invested in a frame. 

[(PSN)IIIDevoidIII]

Lets leave legality out of this. This topic only makes a request.

Agreed. Arguments like that do not further explain an idea, or expand a discussion.

 

Like many other games, call it a 'respec'.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

They don't have to do anything. You signed the EULA.

Being required to do something or not has nothing to do with whether it is ethical or not.

[Rekkou]

I never understand the logic of "Forma is only useful to something OP and useless to something UP". If a warframe/weapon got nerfed, then shouldn't you be glad that you have extra polarity now to balance it? Forma can't be wasted unless you accidentally forma the aura slot with abilities polarity.

[Eric1738]

just want to say a polarized slot should be able to change to another polarity as long as players want

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

I never understand the logic of "Forma is only useful to something OP and useless to something UP". If a warframe/weapon got nerfed, then shouldn't you be glad that you have extra polarity now to balance it? Forma can't be wasted unless you accidentally forma the aura slot with abilities polarity.

Forma can be wasted if the frame is fundamentally changed to the point where you need a different build to function as well as before.  Other game publishers do the ethical thing, and they give you a stat reset on a character class they rebalanced, even if they typically sell restats for real money.

 

 

just want to say a polarized slot should be able to change to another polarity as long as players want

It should be allowed to switch back and forth between any polarity it have ever been.  So if it started neutral, then you made it D, then made it a V, then you should be able to freely switch it between neutral, V or D.

[Davoodoo]

Beta got really nothing to do with presented problem.

 

1)Even after full release developer doesnt need to explain a reason for nerf and especially doesnt need to give you any refund.

 

2)Another thing is that you already used gun you put forma on.

Stores in most countries wont accept used product, why would online service do that.

 

3)And theres also fact that you still keep what you paid for, you put 5 forma on x gun, you still got x gun with 5 forma, you havent lost anything in the process.

[StinkyPygmy]

Very few weapons/frames have ever been "ruined" by changes and thus made unvaible or "useless".

Try experimenting with new builds etc before just writing something you used to like and had forma'd off.

NOt saying this shouldn't be considered. Just in most cases its unnecessary.

Edited September 11, 2014 by StinkyPygmy

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

Beta got really nothing to do with presented problem.

 

1)Even after full release developer doesnt need to explain a reason for nerf and especially doesnt need to give you any refund.

 

2)Another thing is that you already used gun you put forma on.

Stores in most countries wont accept used product, why would online service do that.

 

3)And theres also fact that you still keep what you paid for, you put 5 forma on x gun, you still got x gun with 5 forma, you havent lost anything in the process.

 

1. Need =/= should

 

2. That analogy doesn't hold. Stores don't break into your home and smash your purchases with a hammer.  Whatever physical item you bought can't be changed by them after you already purchased it.

 

3. You lose what you paid for.  It no longer functions as it did before the nerf and the polarity setup that worked so well before can be total garbage after the change.

[Davoodoo]

1. Need =/= should

 

2. That analogy doesn't hold. Stores don't break into your home and smash your purchases with a hammer.  Whatever physical item you bought can't be changed by them after you already purchased it.

 

3. You lose what you paid for.  It no longer functions as it did before the nerf and the polarity setup that worked so well before can be total garbage after the change.

2.Ofc they dont, neither does game developer. But whatever physical item you bought wont remain in top notch shape, both real and ingame items remain same but their relative value drops. Physical product ages and online game changes constantly, its foolish to expect same quality after infinite amount of time.

 

3.Relative value changed but its still same item, you havent lost anything.

Also i wonder how do you polarise your frame since, ember rework, frost changes, trinity nerf, nova changes, saryn changes, nyx changes and even banshee changes havent required any polarity change from me to keep full 10 mod build, unless you really want to minmax for 1 or 2 abilities which is pretty strange since most builds can do that with 4 abilities still equipped.

 

1.Actually in that case need=should, if any of devs feel obliged to give refund due to changes, then adding every new expansion would mean full refund on previous one due to same relative value getting lower by power creep and/or rebalancing, it simply cant happen. You as customer should be aware what youre buying and carefuly measure a value of purchase.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

2.Ofc they dont, neither does game developer. But whatever physical item you bought wont remain in top notch shape, both real and ingame items remain same but their relative value drops. Physical product ages and online game changes constantly, its foolish to expect same quality after infinite amount of time.

 

3.Relative value changed but its still same item, you havent lost anything.

Also i wonder how do you polarise your frame since, ember rework, frost changes, trinity nerf, nova changes, saryn changes, nyx changes and even banshee changes havent required any polarity change from me to keep full 10 mod build, unless you really want to minmax for 1 or 2 abilities which is pretty strange since most builds can do that with 4 abilities still equipped.

 

1.Actually in that case need=should, if any of devs feel obliged to give refund due to changes, then adding every new expansion would mean full refund on previous one due to same relative value getting lower by power creep and/or rebalancing, it simply cant happen. You as customer should be aware what youre buying and carefuly measure a value of purchase.

2. They broke into out games and took a hammer to our stuff.  Our stuff is in worse shaped, works worse, than it did before they nerf hammered it. Aging irl is not the equivalent of a nerf.  It is the equivalent of being left behind due to power creep.  And yes, there is a significant difference.

 

3. If you bought a Ferrari then I came to your house, took the engine out, and replaced it with the engine from a beat-up station wagon it would "still be the same item". It would just perform much, much worse.  Again, that is what their nerf did. 

 

I can't help  that you are terrible at making builds.

 

1. No one is asking for a monetary refund there, genius.  People are asking for the ability to change their polarity. Other ethical Developers do this all the time.  Every time they re-balance a character, they give away a free stat reset -the equivalent of allowing people in warframe to change their modified polarities in WF.

 

What people bought is not what they have now.  Their item was changed after the purchase. In real life, this would be the equivalent to a bait and switch scam, which is illegal, btw. And unless you know some clairvoyants, it is impossible to be aware of arbitrary future changes.

[birdei]

a good example of this is with the developers of path of exile. when vaal was released and the whole passive skill tree was changed, every character was offered a one time respec.

if not the least DE can do is offer a 24-48hr fully built forma alert.

Edited September 11, 2014 by birdei

[Gigaus]

They don't have to do anything. You signed the EULA.

 

You're right, they don't; Just like we don't have to play their game and pay them money to keep it running when they made bad design choices, or screw us over. 'Mean, they know it as much as we do; it's why they're trying to nickle and dime us with yet more crap. 

[Davoodoo]

What people bought is not what they have now.  Their item was changed after the purchase. In real life, this would be the equivalent to a bait and switch scam, which is illegal, btw. And unless you know some clairvoyants, it is impossible to be aware of arbitrary future changes.

Ppl got what they paid for, nothing more nothing less, its not bait and switch by any means, you havent got product of lower quality or higher price, you got exactly what was advertised.

Closests where de got to bait and switch was with kubrows and i posted my complaints about it.

Liset also got its share of false advertisement but its free so you cant even demand a refund for it.

 

It is possible to be aware of future changes, you simply refuse to take a wider look at state of things, you may see mirage with dmg buff and awesome ult, what i see is potentially unbalanced frame which might get its share of nerfs in future.

 

a good example of this is with the developers of path of exile. when vaal was released and the whole passive skill tree was changed, every character was offered a one time respec.

if not the least DE can do is offer a 24-48hr fully built forma alert.

When de introduced damage 2.0 or melee 2.0 they havent just taken all mods that were changed they given you their updated versions, they did exactly same thing as poe did.

Introduction of mods 2.0 and removal of old system, they given you rare fusion cores for every mod you had, so you could quickly get to similiar power lvl as before change.

They acted fair in all of these cases, difference is that they changed major parts of the game and progression, which meant that anything previously earned couldnt be used in new system, simple nerf to few select items isnt making unusable, its actually making it on par with everything of similiar value.

[CapricaSix]

I think this would be excessive if anything, both for DE and for the players who have spent all that time and effort for their builds.

 

My solution would be giving everyone the ability to change their polarity at any time as they wish as long as they've used a forma, no consumables, no cost, just customise to your heart's content. Here's how it would work, you forma your weapon and from that point on you own the polarity slot and just like swapping locations, you should be able to change the polarity however you like without wasting any more formas on the same slot as well as lots of time and effort. That way we'd have less grind, no refunds on DE's end, happy players, win-win.

[Davoodoo]

I think this would be excessive if anything, both for DE and for the players who have spent all that time and effort for their builds.

 

My solution would be giving everyone the ability to change their polarity at any time as they wish as long as they've used a forma, no consumables, no cost, just customise to your heart's content. Here's how it would work, you forma your weapon and from that point on you own the polarity slot and just like swapping locations, you should be able to change the polarity however you like without wasting any more formas on the same slot as well as lots of time and effort. That way we'd have less grind, no refunds on DE's end, happy players, win-win.

Yes thats actually a good idea, personally i think it should be a little more restrictive but i wont complain about little bit more freedom that this idea offers.

[CapricaSix]

Yes thats actually a good idea, personally i think it should be a little more restrictive but i wont complain about little bit more freedom that this idea offers.

Cheers. What kind of a restriction would you propose?

 

I mean we already have to farm/buy the forma, use it on a single slot and then max it out before we can use another forma and rinse repeat the whole process. I feel it's fair that after doing all that chore, we should be given at least some leniency regarding the customisation.

Edited September 11, 2014 by CapricaSix

[Davoodoo]

Cheers. What kind of a restriction would you propose?

 

I mean we already have to farm/buy the forma, use it on a single slot and then max it out before we can use another forma and rinse repeat the whole process. I feel it's fair that after doing all that chore, we should be given at least some leniency regarding the customisation.

I think it was proposed somewhere in this thread already but heres what i would like it to be.

Ability to put only those polarities which were previously used.

 

So for example if you added 2 d and 1 v you can only change 3 slots and only put 2 d and 1 v to them. However if you dont want to use these anymore you can just "remove" and "store" these polarities for later. Base polarities however cannot be "stored" and once replaced are lost forever.

[CapricaSix]

I think it was proposed somewhere in this thread already but heres what i would like it to be.

Ability to put only those polarities which were previously used.

 

So for example if you added 2 d and 1 v you can only change 3 slots and only put 2 d and 1 v to them. However if you dont want to use these anymore you can just "remove" and "store" these polarities for later. Base polarities however cannot be "stored" and once replaced are lost forever.

That could be useful if you can actually transfer those stored polarities to other another weapon/warframe/pet. Better yet, it could pretty much become something like mods, the ability to equip and unequip a forma with the certain polarity you've assigned it, rather than absorbing and fusing the forma you've worked for - only to discard it into oblivion. Otherwise I'm afraid I don't see the need for it.

 

It could in fact become a new grind material. Personally I'd farm and grind formas and save a couple of polarities in my inventory for future use. But that might eliminate the need to max out the weapon/warframes before using the forma on them, but I'm sure a workaround for that can be found easily.

 

But maybe complete freedom after all the time/effort/money spent would be the better alternative :P just saying.

Edited September 11, 2014 by CapricaSix

[Davoodoo]

That could be useful if you can actually transfer those stored polarities to other another weapon/warframe/pet. Better yet, it could pretty much become something like mods, the ability to equip and unequip a forma with the certain polarity you've assigned it, rather than absorbing and fusing the forma you've worked for - only to discard it into oblivion. Otherwise I'm afraid I don't see the need for it.

Actually i would rather avoid that, some thinking should be attached to using forma instead of putting all thats possible and then choosing what you want depending on changes.

I believe that player should think about what they do or they are never taught to learn anything. You can either play safe and use polarities which you are 100% sure you will use no matter what changes will be there, like v for weapons and - for frames, these are always useful or go risky and then after changes being met with polairties which might be not as useful anymore and i say that knowing that de goes closer to general builds with every ability scaling of power/duration/range.

[CapricaSix]

Actually i would rather avoid that, some thinking should be attached to using forma instead of putting all thats possible and then choosing what you want depending on changes.

I believe that player should think about what they do or they are never taught to learn anything. You can either play safe and use polarities which you are 100% sure you will use no matter what changes will be there, like v for weapons and - for frames, these are always useful or go risky and then after changes being met with polairties which might be not as useful anymore and i say that knowing that de goes closer to general builds with every ability scaling of power/duration/range.

True, but it's a rather costly and dull "punishment" where you'd have to buy/farm a forma and grind all over to max level once again for the sake of buffed/nerfed weapons as well as for people who forma'd their stuff without knowing what they were doing.

 

I can only see the restriction being useful for the aura slots and maybe - and V polarities as most useful weapon and warframe mods have those (= polarity is just too situational and D is worthless most of the time), but I do think it's just a bit redundant. A heavy price for customisation just as much as what we currently have.

 

Most people will always go for the powercreep builds regardless of the costs, having some sort of freedom on something you've already spent so much time and effort would at least present some more options, not only fix their nerfed "god mode" builds on their few favourites. At least that's how I look at it. I admit transferring polarities between warframes and weapons might be too extreme lol, but having complete freedom over your already polarised slots would give more reason to use even more formas over and over for several stuff you own even if you won't use them right away.

[Davoodoo]

True, but it's a rather costly and dull "punishment" where you'd have to buy/farm a forma and grind all over to max level once again for the sake of buffed/nerfed weapons as well as for people who forma'd their stuff without knowing what they were doing.

Exactly what im going for

High cost and grind to create attachment and to use it like intended, on stuff that you truly want to keep.

And "punishment" to force ppl to learn, even if they wont use common sense they still have wikia and even if that fails them(more like they fail to use it) they can still learn on their own mistakes.

 

I dont believe that catering to casuals is good thing, i believe that ppl thrown into deep water will eventually learn, if they refuse to learn then they werent dedicated enough and wouldnt pay either, meaning that no one wins.

[CapricaSix]

I dont believe that catering to casuals is good thing, i believe that ppl thrown into deep water will eventually learn, if they refuse to learn then they werent dedicated enough and wouldnt pay either, meaning that no one wins.

You agreed with the initial suggestion though, what changed?

[Davoodoo]

You agreed with the initial suggestion though, what changed?

Nothing.

I love having choice, but i believe its overall better when choice actually matters and you cant just change it freely when you find it convienient.

[CapricaSix]

Fair enough. I love having choice and freedom to do whatever I want with the things I worked for, to each their own :P