Shields Are Bad.

[StinkyPygmy]

Yeah, that's one of the few insta-death attacks left in the game.

 

However, "easily-avoidable" assumes that you were not hooked, and/or you're not a slower frame.  Getting hooked as a slower frame means you often get them sneezing on you before you can recover and move out of the attack range.

 

Also, toxic ancients?  They grant all infested around them poison damage.  Meaning those infested attacks suddenly ignore your shields and attack health directly.  This was mentioned earlier in the thread but I'm mentioning it again because I think it may have been forgotten.

Yes, I'm aware of how toxics work...

Its poison breath is easy to avoid because you have to literally be in its face to begin with. If you know its a risk and you haven't been hooked then you shouldn't be that close to begin with. Melee only run? Attack from behind or fly kick it to the face.

The point is that is avoidable to begin with even with slower frames. You get hooked (the hook is also avoidable)? You made a mistake, don't worry it happens to everyone. Get hit by a toxic infused charger and it took a little bit of health? It happens from time to time, no ones perfect. Honestly WF is the only game I have ever played where the idea you could lose for any reason at all is considered unfair. 

 

I've been killed by regular dmg way more times then shield bypassing dmg. 

Its rare.

Its avoidable.

Its has mods and skills to help if you're having trouble.

I still get plenty of use out of my shields regardless of its presence.

 

I'm honestly not seeing the issue.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

Edited October 13, 2014 by StinkyPygmy

[SandwitchPrime]

shields are fine, not like this is the first time you get this comment

hey tried out a mod called vigor? it's great

there's probably no need for me to tell you why slash damage exists in the first place, so all im gonna say is:if shields are immune to procs, then procs are pretty much useless, in this game for most characters, it's either you have some shield, or you are dead.

rarely do i get killed by grineer slash dmg with out having them to bypass my shields at least once, and for corpus, there's a thing called diamond skin, and come on, really? toxic ancients? you know there's that device on your back that's long and made of metal, and when you pull the thingy metal parts comes out of the other end?so you can attack form range? yeah, that, learn to use it.

next yer gonna tell me guns are bad because they cant kill everyone with one shot

Edited October 13, 2014 by Tol853147920

[Xana_Skullsunder]

Yes, I'm aware of how toxics work...

Its poison breath is easy to avoid because you have to literally be in its face to begin with. If you know its a risk and you haven't been hooked then you shouldn't be that close to begin with. Melee only run? Attack from behind or fly kick it to the face.

The point is that is avoidable to begin with even with slower frames. You get hooked (the hook is also avoidable)?

 

If hooks and other CC are so "avoidable" why the flying **** is Rhino's iron skin of "no CC for you" so popular?

[Naftal]

If hooks and other CC are so "avoidable" why the flying **** is Rhino's iron skin of "no CC for you" so popular?

Because most players are too lazy to do anything.

[OriKlein]

Double edged sword says "but wait, enemy shields aren't immune to procs either! Waowhaoooaoaooooaoo!!"

 

Shields are fine.

 

The entire point of a slash proc (be it for you or an enemy) is to bypass shields and force DoT. Take that away and you've made the most common melee proc borderline useless.

The enemies can rev up sufficient DoT to wipe you out in three ticks against 400 or less HP.

Your procs do not and never will.

Definitely not on level 30+ enemies, at that.

[Rydian]

Its poison breath is easy to avoid because you have to literally be in its face to begin with.

And as of an infested-buffing update, they now have a copy of the Scorpion's grappling attack that that will, from a range, pull a Warframe right up to their face.  Upon which they will do an attack that does effectively 3x the base damage set to the attack.  That last sentence is the issue.

 

Grappling?  Fine.

Attack after grapple?  Fine.

Said attack cuts through shields, doing 1.5x normal damage and effectively 3x damage when compared to the total "life pool"?  Not fine in my book.

 

If the shield took the attack, like it does to the other 12 out of 13 attack types, I wouldn't be complaining about it.

 

You get hooked (the hook is also avoidable)? You made a mistake, don't worry it happens to everyone. Get hit by a toxic infused charger and it took a little bit of health? It happens from time to time, no ones perfect.

And in addition to simple user error, they can aim at you from behind (where your camera does not display them) or when you're distracted.

 

My point is not that the grappling attack is unavoidable or those monsters specifically are OP, it's that their attacks (and the attacks granted to allies from the aura that every single one of them has) go right through shields which makes the damage much deadlier than it otherwise should be due to shields not working against that attack.

 

Honestly WF is the only game I have ever played where the idea you could lose for any reason at all is considered unfair. 

[...]

I'm honestly not seeing the issue.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

I asked somebody else a question, and I'll ask you this question too.  I'd like a response because I believe that the reasoning here is important.

 

"If Corpus bullets one-hit players, would that be acceptable because they're possible to dodge?"

 

Would you be fine with that change if it were to happen?  If so, why?  If not, why not?

 

 

hey tried out a mod called vigor? it's great

Vigor does not stop certain attacks from bypassing shields, nor does it grant shields proc resistance, nor does it make shields take from the frame's armor value like health does, etc.

 

so all im gonna say is:if shields are immune to procs, then procs are pretty much useless

I agree that if shields could not be procced against at all then procs would be useless versus players and corpus.

 

However I think that you're misunderstanding somebody else's statement.  I think that what they meant is that DoTs that proc against shields (fire, slash, and poison) should not damage health if the shield is still up.  Fire already works like this, it's slash and poison/gas (though gas is just AOE toxin) that do not.

 

Even if that suggested change is implemented and DoTs damaged shields if they're still up instead of health, DoTs are not the only procs.

 

Puncture lowers damage output.

Impact staggers.

Fire stuns enemies with a long animation.

Cold slows them.

Electricity stuns and can chain-stun.

Blast knocks down.

Radiation causes friendly fire/confusion.

etc.

 

Still plenty to worry about, and of course fire damages health if the shield is down (and prevents shield recharge for the duration as an effect of the DoT), etc.

[StinkyPygmy]

And as of an infested-buffing update, they now have a copy of the Scorpion's grappling attack that that will, from a range, pull a Warframe right up to their face.  Upon which they will do an attack that does effectively 3x the base damage set to the attack.  That last sentence is the issue.

 

Grappling?  Fine.

Attack after grapple?  Fine.

Said attack cuts through shields, doing 1.5x normal damage and effectively 3x damage when compared to the total "life pool"?  Not fine in my book.

 

If the shield took the attack, like it does to the other 12 out of 13 attack types, I wouldn't be complaining about it.

 

And in addition to simple user error, they can aim at you from behind (where your camera does not display them) or when you're distracted.

 

My point is not that the grappling attack is unavoidable or those monsters specifically are OP, it's that their attacks (and the attacks granted to allies from the aura that every single one of them has) go right through shields which makes the damage much deadlier than it otherwise should be due to shields not working against that attack.

 

I asked somebody else a question, and I'll ask you this question too.  I'd like a response because I believe that the reasoning here is important.

 

"If Corpus bullets one-hit players, would that be acceptable because they're possible to dodge?"

 

Would you be fine with that change if it were to happen?  If so, why?  If not, why not?

 

 

Vigor does not stop certain attacks from bypassing shields, nor does it grant shields proc resistance, nor does it make shields take from the frame's armor value like health does, etc.

 

I agree that if shields could not be procced against at all then procs would be useless versus players and corpus.

 

However I think that you're misunderstanding somebody else's statement.  I think that what they meant is that DoTs that proc against shields (fire, slash, and poison) should not damage health if the shield is still up.  Fire already works like this, it's slash and poison/gas (though gas is just AOE toxin) that do not.

 

Even if that suggested change is implemented and DoTs damaged shields if they're still up instead of health, DoTs are not the only procs.

 

Puncture lowers damage output.

Impact staggers.

Fire stuns enemies with a long animation.

Cold slows them.

Electricity stuns and can chain-stun.

Blast knocks down.

Radiation causes friendly fire/confusion.

etc.

 

Still plenty to worry about, and of course fire damages health if the shield is down (and prevents shield recharge for the duration as an effect of the DoT), etc.

I believe I covered the hook issue and the high dmg issue. If the shield took the attack, what would be the point in it being a part of the game? Nothing would differentiate it from regular dmg.

 

Edit: Its worth noting that Toxic ancients don't always use their toxic breath after dragging a player as it is linked to their screaming animation which seems to be rather random. Making it even less of a threat a sthey tend to do it regardless of whether or not you are even close, something I have witnessed many times.

 

"And in addition to simple user error, they can aim at you from behind (where your camera does not display them) or when you're distracted."

I'm sorry, but are you seriously suggesting that the player shouldn't be punished for not paying attention or messing up? If an ancient sneaks up on you because you distracted or not paying attention it is entirely your fault.  You are not paying attention and as such are paying the price for your negligence. It happens to me from time to time when I'm focused on a group of chargers trying to hug me to death (which is kind of the point). They are the distraction, the swarm, the mindless and expendable grunts. Their sole purpose in the event they cannot kill you is to keep you busy while a slow ancient sneaks up and does its job, in what ever fashion it chooses. That is the synergy of the swarm.

 

On the topic of one shotting corpus: That is a very difference comparison and not valid in the slightest. Corpus lasers are a very common attack. Literally an entire faction is based around laser projectiles. Seeing as they are a regular attack used by everything, then what relevance does them one-shotting anyone have to do with the discussion? It would make the game entirely unplayable against one faction. Not only would them bypassing shields (which is what we are discussing) not make sense it would be OP as it is a basic attack and dmg type, that despite being slower and avoidable at times is still near on impossible to dodge as you can have 100's of projectiles coming at you for multiple directions at a time. 

Toxin on the other hand is rare and comes in only a few forms: 

1)Close range breath from an ancient that you can only blame your self if you get hit by.

2):mutalists: Avoidable, temporary, disperses on osprey death and does laughable dmg.

3) Toxic infused lesser infested: Also relatively low dmg but has the potential to be dangerous, easily avoidable as it requires melee attacks (don't get hit)

4) Lobber crawlers: not really worth mentioning. Extremely rare and the AI is broken so they don't often even attack with range.

 

I won't include Toxic Exermis as I agree that they need a look at.

 

Sorry man, but none of those points are valid arguments in my opinion. Toxic dmg is rare and avoidable with ways to lessen the pain.

Its logical it bypasses shields and in no way unfair. 

At this stage I'm just repeating myself as all my points address your issues. It really just seems a case of differing opinions based on personal preference.

Still, props for the civil discussion. Disagreements rarely go that way on the forums.

Edited October 13, 2014 by StinkyPygmy

[xXRampantXx]

I run high-shield-low-health builds on almost all my frames (Vakyr, is the only exception) and I have never found the bleed or poison procs to be that big a deal.  My 270 health Mag has never died to procs.

 

Also:

~snip~

You will die to corpus as their shield damage bonus strips away your shield hp.

~snip~

Corpus don't have shield damage bonuses, they deal high damage to armor.  Grineer do mostly impact damage, which is pretty good against shields, but I've still never known it to be that big a deal.

Edited October 13, 2014 by xXRampantXx

[Azawarau]

When they first came out they were inflicting certain death on players with their DoT.  As in, their DoT was ticking down 8 ticks totaling more damage than the health that any frame in the game could have... outside of Rhino's Iron Skin.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/249354-these-new-ospreys-are-too-strong/

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/249360-mutalist-osprey-is-devastating-to-squishy-frames-like-loki-and-even-armored-frames-like-frost/

 

... because it was poison damage and ignored shields.  If it was another typed of damage (say, corrosive) it would not have been nearly as deadly (for numerical reasons I pointed out earlier).

 

I'm using them, as they were in the past, as an example for why poison damage is unbalanced.  If they dealt any other kind of damage they would not have had nearly as bad of an effect on players.

First you assume youre sitting in a cloud for long enough to die on a faction that is all melee and runs into any and every CC you have

 

Second poison ignoring shields is a non issue

 

Very few mechanics do this and the ones that do arent early as bad as players claim

 

Get some HP

 

Theres no point in using them as they were pre  nerf for an argument on why its OP now

 

By that logic we need to nerf alot of things that were OP pre nerf

[Rydian]

I believe I covered the hook issue and the high dmg issue. If the shield took the attack, what would be the point in it being a part of the game? Nothing would differentiate it from regular dmg.

As of Update 11, there is no such thing as "regular damage".  Everything deals one (or more) of the damage types, even Warframe powers.  Nyx's Absorb deals magnetic, Excalibur's Slash Dash is slash, Oberon's Hallowed Ground is radiation, etc.

 

The point of enemies doing different types of damage is that they hurt different things in different amounts.

Check the Damage 2.0 chart on the wiki to see that elements other than poison matter too.

 

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Damage_2.0

(The names at the top of the table are clickable tab buttons, you want the Tenno tab,)

 

It's not just poison that's special against players.  Impact damage, as dealt by Grineer, does +50% damage to our shields.  Slash damage deals +25% damage to our flesh once the shield is down.  Cold deals +50% damage to our shields when they're up.  Viral deals +50% damage to our health when the shields are down.

 

And those are fine because those damage bonuses only go up to 50%, and they only affect you in specific situations (shields up or down).

 

Whereas poison does 300% effective damage all the time due to it acting as if the shield pool was empty.  If shields actually took the hit like they do with the other 12/13 damage types then it'd be in the same category as them and there'd be less shield complaints.

 

* (There is a 75% weakness to magnetic, but as far as I'm aware no enemy in the game naturally deals magnetic damage because the magnetic proc is disruption and that would just be terrible.)

 

 

I'm sorry, but are you seriously suggesting that the player shouldn't be punished for not paying attention or messing up?

No.  I'm stating that...

 

1 - "You can avoid it so it's automatically fine" is a cop-out argument.

2 - The punishment for not having your camera aimed at every enemy should not be unavoidable 300% damage.

 

I have said it before, and I will say it again.  If shields took the hit like they do to the other 12/13 damage types, I would have no complaint.  Acting as if I'm complaining about the hook and attack method in general is just rude when I have already stated that is not my complaint, my complaint is the damage type these specific ones do bypassing sheilds.

 

You know that ancient healers will hook and smack attack, right?  Notice how I'm not complaining about those?  That's because their attacks will respect the fact that your shield is up.  Same with every other enemy that has a form of CC/stun and/or hook attack.

 

On the topic of one shotting corpus: That is a very difference comparison and not valid in the slightest. Corpus lasers are a very common attack. Literally an entire faction is based around laser projectiles. Seeing as they are a regular attack used by everything, then what relevance does them one-shotting anyone have to do with the discussion?

It's to show that the the "You can dodge it so that means it's fine" reasoning is flawed.

 

It would make the game entirely unplayable against one faction.

Just like Fartspreys did for infested.  In fact not only were they nerfed multiple times, but they were removed from Defense missions for a while due to them making AOE death traps over the objective (and of course the usual "hurr I are flying enemy how do I operate a door durr" issue).

 

Toxin on the other hand is rare and comes in only a few forms: 

1)Close range breath from an ancient that you can only blame your self if you get hit by.

2):mutalists: Avoidable, temporary, disperses on osprey death and does laughable dmg.

3) Toxic infused lesser infested: Also relatively low dmg but has the potential to be dangerous, easily avoidable as it requires melee attacks (don't get hit)

4) Lobber crawlers: not really worth mentioning. Extremely rare and the AI is broken so they don't often even attack with range.

Yes, enemies doing raw poison damage are relatively-rare, and most of them don't do much damage anymore.  That's why there's not many complaints about them anymore (other than the toxic ancient aura as of a few month ago).

 

However that's because DE has done individual patches to avoid the issue instead of fixing it.  "Fartsprey cloud does death due to effective 300% life damage?  We'll just lower the base damage so that the effective damage is manageable."

 

Sorry man, but none of those points are valid arguments in my opinion. Toxic dmg is rare and avoidable with ways to lessen the pain.

Its logical it bypasses shields and in no way unfair. 

At this stage I'm just repeating myself as all my points address your issues. It really just seems a case of differing opinions based on personal preference.

Alright, then how about if the Corpus Tech's bullets one-shot players?

 

Rare, and avoidable.  So does that mean it'd be fine?

 

Still, props for the civil discussion. Disagreements rarely go that way on the forums.

Agreed, whenever I start pulling out actual numbers and data from the game, people tend to get really &!$$ed because they don't feel like actually discussing how the game works, they just want to spout their crap and not hear anything back.

 

 

 

 

 

First you assume youre sitting in a cloud for long enough to die

No I am not.  You might want to go check out how Fartspreys work.  DoT =/= AoE.

 

You only need to be in the cloud for a short moment in order to get the DoT, which is an internal poison damage counter displayed in the upper-right (where status effects are displayed), and this continues to damage you for ~8 seconds even if you're nowhere near the cloud and the Fartsprey is dead and the cloud is gone.

 

Previously, the total damage dealt over the ticks was more health than any frame could have, thus it having been a death sentence to be anywhere near the cloud at any given time before they were nerfed.

 

Second poison ignoring shields is a non issue

Poison ignoring shields is the reason they do effectively 300% death damage.

 

If they did not ignore shields, then instead of it taking only 333 damage to kill the example Excalibur, it would take 750 toxic damage to kill that Excal.  Just like it would take 750 impact damage to kill excal (same bonus on the other half of the life pool), and just like it would take 750 cold damage (the other two 150% damage types frames are naturally weak to).

 

If you have questions on the calculations, feel free to ask and I'll make up some little diagrams or something about where these numbers are coming from.

[OriKlein]

If hooks and other CC are so "avoidable" why the flying **** is Rhino's iron skin of "no CC for you" so popular?

Playing against knockdown-ability mobs without surefooted and fortitude (or handspring/constitution if you are so inclined to prefer) is quite the opposite of fun.

[Xana_Skullsunder]

Playing against knockdown-ability mobs without surefooted and fortitude (or handspring/constitution if you are so inclined to prefer) is quite the opposite of fun.

 

And yet everyone tells me it's my fault for not dodging the 1 guy with the hook with a second long reaction window in the midst of fighting 30+ enemies :/

 

Anyway, back to the topic: Bleed is friggen obnoxious, and it has killed me a few times on my Volt, even when I run Vigor, i.e.- when I'm specifically building him to be tough.

Edited October 14, 2014 by XanaSkullpulper

[StinkyPygmy]

As of Update 11, there is no such thing as "regular damage".  Everything deals one (or more) of the damage types, even Warframe powers.  Nyx's Absorb deals magnetic, Excalibur's Slash Dash is slash, Oberon's Hallowed Ground is radiation, etc.

 

The point of enemies doing different types of damage is that they hurt different things in different amounts.

Check the Damage 2.0 chart on the wiki to see that elements other than poison matter too.

 

Ok I'm really starting to feel like you are patronizing me here...

Obviously when I said Regular dmg I was referring too damage that comes under the physical dmg type umbrella and is not elemental (impact, Puncture, slash). I am well aware of how damage 2.0 functions. 

 Responses with redundant explanations seem really condescending and obnoxious.

I've been playing WF since just after CB finished. So I've been around the block more then a few times.

Definitely long enough to have an in depth understanding of the games mechanics.

I wouldn't be arguing the point at all for as long as I have if I didn't understand what I was talking about.

 

Like I said before we will have to agree to disagree.

I'm not too fond of typing up another paragraph repeating my previous points only for us to keep going around in circles.

At this stage we are just repeating ourselves.

Either I'm not explaining it effectively or you seem to be misunderstanding some of my key arguments (possibly the other way around as well).

I'm going to leave it at that.

Edited October 14, 2014 by StinkyPygmy

[TaylorsContraction]

My 2 cents is that the op is right. I'm starting to see more and more how useless shields are with so much shield bypass damage. I no longer bother with redirection and just use vitality. Health takes armor into consideration which is effective for some frames but it also let's you live so long as you have it.

 

I cleared Eris recently, the whole map. Shields there are totally useless because of the insane amount of poison.

[Azawarau]

As of Update 11, there is no such thing as "regular damage".  Everything deals one (or more) of the damage types, even Warframe powers.  Nyx's Absorb deals magnetic, Excalibur's Slash Dash is slash, Oberon's Hallowed Ground is radiation, etc.

 

The point of enemies doing different types of damage is that they hurt different things in different amounts.

Check the Damage 2.0 chart on the wiki to see that elements other than poison matter too.

 

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Damage_2.0

(The names at the top of the table are clickable tab buttons, you want the Tenno tab,)

 

It's not just poison that's special against players.  Impact damage, as dealt by Grineer, does +50% damage to our shields.  Slash damage deals +25% damage to our flesh once the shield is down.  Cold deals +50% damage to our shields when they're up.  Viral deals +50% damage to our health when the shields are down.

 

And those are fine because those damage bonuses only go up to 50%, and they only affect you in specific situations (shields up or down).

 

Whereas poison does 300% effective damage all the time due to it acting as if the shield pool was empty.  If shields actually took the hit like they do with the other 12/13 damage types then it'd be in the same category as them and there'd be less shield complaints.

 

* (There is a 75% weakness to magnetic, but as far as I'm aware no enemy in the game naturally deals magnetic damage because the magnetic proc is disruption and that would just be terrible.)

 

 

No.  I'm stating that...

 

1 - "You can avoid it so it's automatically fine" is a cop-out argument.

2 - The punishment for not having your camera aimed at every enemy should not be unavoidable 300% damage.

 

I have said it before, and I will say it again.  If shields took the hit like they do to the other 12/13 damage types, I would have no complaint.  Acting as if I'm complaining about the hook and attack method in general is just rude when I have already stated that is not my complaint, my complaint is the damage type these specific ones do bypassing sheilds.

 

You know that ancient healers will hook and smack attack, right?  Notice how I'm not complaining about those?  That's because their attacks will respect the fact that your shield is up.  Same with every other enemy that has a form of CC/stun and/or hook attack.

 

It's to show that the the "You can dodge it so that means it's fine" reasoning is flawed.

 

Just like Fartspreys did for infested.  In fact not only were they nerfed multiple times, but they were removed from Defense missions for a while due to them making AOE death traps over the objective (and of course the usual "hurr I are flying enemy how do I operate a door durr" issue).

 

Yes, enemies doing raw poison damage are relatively-rare, and most of them don't do much damage anymore.  That's why there's not many complaints about them anymore (other than the toxic ancient aura as of a few month ago).

 

However that's because DE has done individual patches to avoid the issue instead of fixing it.  "Fartsprey cloud does death due to effective 300% life damage?  We'll just lower the base damage so that the effective damage is manageable."

 

Alright, then how about if the Corpus Tech's bullets one-shot players?

 

Rare, and avoidable.  So does that mean it'd be fine?

 

Agreed, whenever I start pulling out actual numbers and data from the game, people tend to get really &!$$ed because they don't feel like actually discussing how the game works, they just want to spout their crap and not hear anything back.

 

 

 

 

 

No I am not.  You might want to go check out how Fartspreys work.  DoT =/= AoE.

 

You only need to be in the cloud for a short moment in order to get the DoT, which is an internal poison damage counter displayed in the upper-right (where status effects are displayed), and this continues to damage you for ~8 seconds even if you're nowhere near the cloud and the Fartsprey is dead and the cloud is gone.

 

Previously, the total damage dealt over the ticks was more health than any frame could have, thus it having been a death sentence to be anywhere near the cloud at any given time before they were nerfed.

 

Poison ignoring shields is the reason they do effectively 300% death damage.

 

If they did not ignore shields, then instead of it taking only 333 damage to kill the example Excalibur, it would take 750 toxic damage to kill that Excal.  Just like it would take 750 impact damage to kill excal (same bonus on the other half of the life pool), and just like it would take 750 cold damage (the other two 150% damage types frames are naturally weak to).

 

If you have questions on the calculations, feel free to ask and I'll make up some little diagrams or something about where these numbers are coming from.

Youre doing something terribly wrong if youre being killed that easily

 

Im not sure how to further take this conversation when its really down to a question of lacking basic player skill

 

and i dont mean to insult you entirely but in short

 

Git gud

 

The enemies dont even attempt to defend themselves and are effectively the worst faction in the game and youre asking for a nerf

 

Theres something horribly wrong with the idea that damage shouldnt bypass shields at all

[Rydian]

Youre doing something terribly wrong if youre being killed that easily

For the love of Lotus...  My references to Fartspreys inflicting unavoidable death on most frames was how they were when they were first released (in the past).  Nowadays, they are not nearly as deadly, I don't think I've died to one in months.

 

Them being so deadly was not due to their tactics or their raw damage, but due to the fact that their damage in particular (opposed to most other damage in the game) is 300% effective on Warframes... due to shields not taking the attacks or DoT damage.

 

Im not sure how to further take this conversation when its really down to a question of lacking basic player skill

 

and i dont mean to insult you entirely but in short

 

Git gud

 

The enemies dont even attempt to defend themselves and are effectively the worst faction in the game and youre asking for a nerf

I'm not specifically asking for infested to be nerfed.  I have been using Fartspreys and how they damaged players on first release as an example of why shields not working against poison damage is unfair and unbalanced.

 

In fact, if shields took poison damage, then Fartspreys would logically have their base damage increased to compensate for the fact that they'd be attacking the same life pool that everything else does.

 

Telling me to be a better player is a cop-out and does not actually discuss or address the mechanics at hand.

It is an entirely unconstructive response.

 

Theres something horribly wrong with the idea that damage shouldnt bypass shields at all

So Impact, Puncture, Slash, Cold, Electricity, Heat, Blast, Corrosive, Gas, Magnetic, Radiation, and Viral are horribly wrong?  'Cause those are the other 12/13 damage types and they don't bypass shields. :P

 

 

 

On a more serious note though... let me make some graphs to show you how poison damage is unbalanced.

(One hour of fumbling around in Word later...)

 

So going off of my earlier example normal Warframe, same health as shields.  First, here's the chart showing the differences in what the Damage 2.0 tables state that the damage effectiveness is (in terms of bonus damage percent off of 100%), versus what actually happens in-game.

 

The grey bars are what the damage chart and stuff says, while the red bar indicates the total life pool damage actually sustained by the Warframe taking the attack.

 

 

Do you notice the very obvious imbalance?

 

Now let's look at what this chart would look like if shields actually took toxin attacks like they do everything else.

 

 

See how everything is a lot more balanced?

 

And hey, while I'm talking about balance, let me make a "balance" pun!

 

 

The effective damage from Toxin is more than all the other effective damage bonuses against players combined.

[Naftal]

I have been using Fartspreys and how they damaged players on first release as an example of why shields not working against poison damage is unfair and unbalanced.

Why do you do this when it's not how things currently are?

[Azawarau]

For the love of Lotus...  My references to Fartspreys inflicting unavoidable death on most frames was how they were when they were first released (in the past).  Nowadays, they are not nearly as deadly, I don't think I've died to one in months.

 

Them being so deadly was not due to their tactics or their raw damage, but due to the fact that their damage in particular (opposed to most other damage in the game) is 300% effective on Warframes... due to shields not taking the attacks or DoT damage.

 

I'm not specifically asking for infested to be nerfed.  I have been using Fartspreys and how they damaged players on first release as an example of why shields not working against poison damage is unfair and unbalanced.

 

In fact, if shields took poison damage, then Fartspreys would logically have their base damage increased to compensate for the fact that they'd be attacking the same life pool that everything else does.

 

Telling me to be a better player is a cop-out and does not actually discuss or address the mechanics at hand.

It is an entirely unconstructive response.

 

So Impact, Puncture, Slash, Cold, Electricity, Heat, Blast, Corrosive, Gas, Magnetic, Radiation, and Viral are horribly wrong?  'Cause those are the other 12/13 damage types and they don't bypass shields. :P

 

 

 

On a more serious note though... let me make some graphs to show you how poison damage is unbalanced.

(One hour of fumbling around in Word later...)

 

So going off of my earlier example normal Warframe, same health as shields.  First, here's the chart showing the differences in what the Damage 2.0 tables state that the damage effectiveness is (in terms of bonus damage percent off of 100%), versus what actually happens in-game.

 

The grey bars are what the damage chart and stuff says, while the red bar indicates the total life pool damage actually sustained by the Warframe taking the attack.

 

 

Do you notice the very obvious imbalance?

 

Now let's look at what this chart would look like if shields actually took toxin attacks like they do everything else.

 

 

See how everything is a lot more balanced?

 

And hey, while I'm talking about balance, let me make a "balance" pun!

 

 

The effective damage from Toxin is more than all the other effective damage bonuses against players combined.

That alone only says toxin is effective against tenno as an element

 

Its hardly a threat in game still

[Rydian]

Why do you do this when it's not how things currently are?

 

That alone only says toxin is effective against tenno as an element

 

Its hardly a threat in game still

 

Using history as an example, so that we can learn what mistakes were made and try to correct the underlying issue in the game's damage logic.

 

The issue with Fartsprey damage was not the raw damage the enemy was set to deal, it's that it's effectively 300% damage done against players, but DE responded by lowering the base damage so that the multiplied damage was below lethal amounts instead of fixing the way-too-high damage multiplier.

 

DE's method of fixing the issue was by going after individual symptoms instead of the core problem.  This means that other cases like this can crop up in the future, and this currently has a big effect on PvP (like Dark Sectors).

 

Changing damage logic so that toxin hits shields before health like all the other damage types...

1 - Would have fixed the Fartsprey problem (past).

2 - Will fix some PvP imbalances (present).

3 - Will prevent imbalance issues in newer content (future).

All stemming from this way-too-high-of-an-effective-multiplier because shields don't take the toxin hit.

[Catalyst1945]

I started running Flow + Quick Thinking on my Loki Prime just to stop the one stray bullet that procs slash from killing me in high tier missions. Redirection on that frame isn't even worth running when you can use Vitality, but it is still only a little over 500.

[Dwarfstar]

Cool. Clearly this is an issue that has been recognized by the community. Keep the discussion going!

[Nothus]

My biggest problem with bleed procs and such is that they are not even between Players, and Enemies.

 

I've almost never killed something by bleed proc. for a player it's completely laughable damage. whereas i can be effectively killed by it since there's only one of me.

 

Now, that said i don't feel that the procs coming from enemies are bad. they seem fine where they are, but the one coming from players are not balanced yet.

[Naftal]

That "poison deals +200% damage" is bullS#&$ that assumes you have as much shields as hp and 0 armor when going against the infested, which is a very bad assumption...

[The_Sharp_Demonologist]

The real problem is that Warframes dont have separated damage resistances, their armor is just a bonus resistance against all tipes of damage with most frames having low armor. What DE needs is to give each Warframe their own set of resistances like Ember being relatively weak to physical types (Impact, Piercing and Slash) While being resistant to special types like Corrosive, Electrick etc. Also Inmune to fire and specially weak to Ice.

[Azawarau]

Using history as an example, so that we can learn what mistakes were made and try to correct the underlying issue in the game's damage logic.

 

The issue with Fartsprey damage was not the raw damage the enemy was set to deal, it's that it's effectively 300% damage done against players, but DE responded by lowering the base damage so that the multiplied damage was below lethal amounts instead of fixing the way-too-high damage multiplier.

 

DE's method of fixing the issue was by going after individual symptoms instead of the core problem.  This means that other cases like this can crop up in the future, and this currently has a big effect on PvP (like Dark Sectors).

 

Changing damage logic so that toxin hits shields before health like all the other damage types...

1 - Would have fixed the Fartsprey problem (past).

2 - Will fix some PvP imbalances (present).

3 - Will prevent imbalance issues in newer content (future).

All stemming from this way-too-high-of-an-effective-multiplier because shields don't take the toxin hit.

All in all

 

If they reduced the multiplier and increased the base damage itd be in the same spot

 

Youre literally just asking for a nerf either way

 

Your issue isnt the multiplier,Its the damage itself

 

Which is hardly a threat until you reach higher levels where its supposed to be a threat