Oh Look, Ash.

[C43L1]

Oh look, he's playing Ash. No doubt we're going to have quite the contest of skill, a heart-pounding and exhilarating firefight or perhaps some acrobatic melee back-and-forth.

Wait, no, he's just going to hang out near the spawn and use bladestorm over and over. Imagine that.

So tell me, given that we all know these abilities were designed for PvE and that they have a massive way to go before they are balanced in PvP, WHY are they in PvP?

I mean, rail conflicts are fun when it's just guns, and while some melee weapons are completely broken at least they don't make the opponent invincible...

[Doom_Bunny]

He's not invincible he is just fast, any explosives or area damaging weapons will hurt him easily. If you can hit the right Ash while he is attacking another person he will take damage. Ash is just at the top of the list of OP frames in PVP there are many more arfter him, so the idea to take out all abilities is a good idea.

[xethier]

yes, pvp is broken.

best solution, stop playing it.

don't play dark sectors either so you aren't supporting the clans that own the rails and use your support to pay bait.

 

this way DE can quickly see that interest in this game mode is abysmal and they should nuke it from orbit.

[7grims]

wasnt valkyr OP in pvp?

wasnt rhino OP in pvp?

wasnt whoever OP in pvp?

 

yah guess what, most frames need a balance for pvp.

ur talking of ash as if he is a super god of pvp xD

[Senketsu_]

I swear to god if I see one more cry post about Ash I'm going to shoot someone. The answer is simple: Don't play PvP

Or you could ask them in chat (as nice as possible) 'Why even play Ash? It's boring, too easy, and just stupid.'

  

yes, pvp is broken.

best solution, stop playing it.

don't play dark sectors either so you aren't supporting the clans that own the rails and use your support to pay bait.

 

this way DE can quickly see that interest in this game mode is abysmal and they should nuke it from orbit.

not playing it won't fix any problem. Just like PvE players want good balance so they can enjoy their game. PvP players want balance for the same reason. Stop being areses about it. I personaly think the best way to balance PvP is to make PvP exclusive mods, make it so any weapon you have scales when in PvP, and remove launchers as a loadout weapon and make them be random timed spawns around the map.

[C43L1]

As near as I can tell, he IS invincible, unless I'm getting really bad lag every time. One of my loadouts uses explosives liberally, and damage numbers definitely aren't popping up when bladestorm is going.

There's really no need to shoot someone for complaining about a genuinely terrible gameplay element. Especially when the solution is rather obvious. I don't think I will play much more PvP for exactly this reason, depending on how frequently it happens, but the game mode is generally fun and competitive as long as no one is abusing certain mechanics.

I don't mind Valkyr and Rhino being tough to bring down, they can still be killed. Ash cannot unless his player is stupid, outnumbered, or both. I actually don't know if others are in such a broken state because I haven't seen any other frames that people just straight up abuse.

I quit two PvP matches earlier because one particular Ash on my (defending) team was just camping the spawn point so nothing could survive more than a couple seconds. It sucked the challenge and fun that I find in most games' PvP modes right out of the match.

Awful, poorly-thought-out design, hence a feedback post to add my voice to those asking for change.

[xethier]

i like pvp games.

i've played pvp since doom / descent days.

 

warframe isn't designed with pvp in mind. there are too many ways for players to use tactics that are incredibly unbalanced, not fun to play as or against. pvp as a lark is fine. (conclaves & duels) but for serious pvp, this is a complete trainwreck.

 

attaching dark sectors to pvp control was a very bad solution.

 

my advice (to quit playing pvp completely) is the best solution i can give players.

the feedback i've read on these forums is overwhelmingly negative.

 

there are ways that the problems can be addressed, but it would require a MASSIVE overhaul to every ability of every warframe when applied to pvp. and this is a huge undertaking for DE to try to do for a section of the game that isn't heavily populated. (at least in pc, i can't speak for xbox or ps4)

 

if they wish to go about that, great, maybe they can make something of it. but band-aid after band-aid to the current system just turns me off to the whole thing. 

[RiouHotaru]

There's plenty of things just as OP as Ash you know?

 

Oberon's Smite (forced knockdown and Rad proc, hello friendly fire!)

 

Hydroid's Tempest Barrage (AoE 100% knockdown that can persist)

 

So yeah.

[REDHOOOD]

There's plenty of things just as OP as Ash you know?

 

Oberon's Smite (forced knockdown and Rad proc, hello friendly fire!)

 

Hydroid's Tempest Barrage (AoE 100% knockdown that can persist)

 

So yeah.

 

SHHHHHHHHHHHH!

[HiTekRedNek]

Any frame can be OP in PvP with the correct build and a skilled person at the keyboard. Learn the strategies to defeat them and apply it. Especially when you are attacking, you have the ability to group up and choose your group loadout. Bring frames that compliment each other, weapons that have synergy with each other, and watch each others back.

[REDHOOOD]

Any frame can be OP in PvP with the correct build and a skilled person at the keyboard. Learn the strategies to defeat them and apply it. Especially when you are attacking, you have the ability to group up and choose your group loadout. Bring frames that compliment each other, weapons that have synergy with each other, and watch each others back.

 

SSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!! you just shared the most OP thing about DS PvP... 

[C43L1]

"Any frame can be OP in PvP"

Now you're just being willfully ignorant of the current state of affairs. The problem here is that there IS no strategy for defeating a player dedicated to the Art of Extreme Cheese. Stunlock is widely regarded as a problem in MMOs precisely because of what it is - being locked into a stun with no way to alter the course of events, watching your health go down and hoping the enemy manages to screw up badly enough for you to maybe have a chance at getting to play again.

Which can't even happen with Blade Storm (currently seems to be the FotM and worst offender) because it's effectively a cutscene for both parties. The literal 'I win' button. The anti-contest-of-skill. You don't even have to move or attack the person because the game does it for you.

It isn't the only broken ability but that's just it, they are so broken in their current state that they have no place in PvP, especially because of the massive disparity between certain warframes in terms of useful abilities.

It would be insane to call yourself a PvPer and NOT complain about such a gamebreaking flaw with the current thrown-together system (which I thought had been out for a long time in the form of conclave and duels, it boggles my mind that this is a thing that we have to discuss here after all this time). And I feel for the players trying to hold solar rails, because they don't really get to opt out if they want to maintain control.

It's rare for PvE games to successfully implement good PvP content. However, it's just as rare if not rarer for them to be this spectacularly bad, and I really expected better from DE considering that they've crafted a pretty entertaining PvE experience.

[REDHOOOD]

"Any frame can be OP in PvP"

Now you're just being willfully ignorant of the current state of affairs. The problem here is that there IS no strategy for defeating a player dedicated to the Art of Extreme Cheese. Stunlock is widely regarded as a problem in MMOs precisely because of what it is - being locked into a stun with no way to alter the course of events, watching your health go down and hoping the enemy manages to screw up badly enough for you to maybe have a chance at getting to play again.

Which can't even happen with Blade Storm (currently seems to be the FotM and worst offender) because it's effectively a cutscene for both parties. The literal 'I win' button. The anti-contest-of-skill. You don't even have to move or attack the person because the game does it for you.

It isn't the only broken ability but that's just it, they are so broken in their current state that they have no place in PvP, especially because of the massive disparity between certain warframes in terms of useful abilities.

It would be insane to call yourself a PvPer and NOT complain about such a gamebreaking flaw with the current thrown-together system (which I thought had been out for a long time in the form of conclave and duels, it boggles my mind that this is a thing that we have to discuss here after all this time). And I feel for the players trying to hold solar rails, because they don't really get to opt out if they want to maintain control.

It's rare for PvE games to successfully implement good PvP content. However, it's just as rare if not rarer for them to be this spectacularly bad, and I really expected better from DE considering that they've crafted a pretty entertaining PvE experience.

 

Any cheese can be overcome. Warframe is a game that requires aiming, timing, and organized builds, which is flooded with human error (Very exploitable).

 

In past threads, I have illuminated to this and how to use it to your advantage. Furthermore, many players that initially disliked PvP, but friended and fought along side me now enjoy it. By focusing on finding a solution and overcoming cheesy tactics together, they are ALL enjoying PvP now. Its like beating what they thought was impossible gave them a sense of control over this game.  

 

Basically you have 2 choices: Sit and wait for DE to change something while shunning everyone else who PvPs, or engage the cheesers and emerge stronger when you overcome them. You can nerf Ash again, it will only make my PvP missions easier when I fight _________ alliances. 

However, I can assure you there will be many other complaints long after BS is nerfed again. 

 

 

TL;DR: continuing QQing while I keep Pew Pewing - Starcraft 2 terran motto

 

Red

[RebornsAlmark]

Okay, let's get this out of the way first, there is anywhere from 20-40% of comments in the PvP feedback section is essentially "I don't PvP, so this doesn't concern me" or "Don't PvP" which is essentially spam in a PvP feedback fourm (the first few replies to this thread are exactly this). The equivalent of this is going to the Dojo feedback section and posting in a random feedback thread, "I don't have a Dojo or plan to get one, so this thread doesn't concern me" or "Just don't make a dojo."

 

Any cheese can be overcome. Warframe is a game that requires aiming, timing, and organized builds, which is flooded with human error (Very exploitable).

 

In past threads, I have illuminated to this and how to use it to your advantage. Furthermore, many players that initially disliked PvP, but friended and fought along side me now enjoy it. By focusing on finding a solution and overcoming cheesy tactics together, they are ALL enjoying PvP now. Its like beating what they thought was impossible gave them a sense of control over this game.  

 

Basically you have 2 choices: Sit and wait for DE to change something while shunning everyone else who PvPs, or engage the cheesers and emerge stronger when you overcome them. You can nerf Ash again, it will only make my PvP missions easier when I fight _________ alliances. 

However, I can assure you there will be many other complaints long after BS is nerfed again. 

 

 

TL;DR: continuing QQing while I keep Pew Pewing - Starcraft 2 terran motto

 

Red

Ash's Bladestorm can be overcome with certain abilities that give you invulnerablilty (Hysteria, Absorb, Iron Skin possibly, etc; these require you to already activate the ability when Ash uses Bladestorm), the other method is to actually survive it or have it miss you altogether and then attack Ash once he leaves Bladestorm. While one Ash with Bladestorm might be easy to deal with, a team of 2-4 Ashs with Bladestorm and a little bit of wit would be very hard to counter unless you completely shut them down and prevent them from getting enough energy to use Bladestorm (a curbstomp battle basically, these aren't good examples). A team of Rhinos, Oberons, or Hydroids would be much easier to deal with than a team of Ashs with Bladestorm.

 

Moreover, Ash's Bladestorm as pointed out by C43L1 is somewhat of a "I win" button. Even if it does not kill any player Tennos, it will kill anywhere from 1-18 grunts (worth about 40-80 XP each) and/or specters (worth about 200-300 XP each) which will grant a notable burst of XP for Ash's team and push back a whole wave of mobs. Now that's assuming Ash's Bladestorm doesn't kill any players. In addition, it stuns any target(s) caught by it. Even without killing any players, his Bladestorm ability has great utility; but, add in the fact it can kill and/or stun 1-4 players per cast, it is revealed that it has too much utility as both a player-killing ability and an AoE ability.

 

Lastly, Blizzard seems to balance against cheese anyway. Look at Hearthstone's aggro nerf (Leeroy and Buzzard nerf) and Starcraft 1's zergling rush nerf (both were cheesy rush strategies and un-fun to play against).

There's plenty of things just as OP as Ash you know?

 

Oberon's Smite (forced knockdown and Rad proc, hello friendly fire!)

 

Hydroid's Tempest Barrage (AoE 100% knockdown that can persist)

 

So yeah.

These abilities can all be played around easier than Ash's Bladestorm and offer less overall utility, Oberon's Smite must actually be targetted on a player (unlike Bladestorm which can target a random creep and hit players nearby) and doesn't guarantee a kill (it can also be blocked with melee I believe, unlike Bladestorm). It's a anti-player ability which is useful against 1 target only. Hydroid's Tempest Barrage is an AoE ability, however its radius of effect is more limited than Bladestorm (10m vs 25m radius) and doesn't always hit its target (even when they are in the radius of effect) as the barrage hits are random; additionally, a good copter can allow you to bypass Tempest Barrage and Tempest Barrage doesn't guarantee kills. These abilities, and some pointed out in the thread (Iron Skin and Hysteria, both acting as support-abilities which only affect yourself) are good, but none are even close to the utility of Ash's Bladestorm which acts as a player-killing ability and an AoE ability which will at kill at least one target (which is the best case scenario), stun said target(s), provide XP for killed targets, and possibly push back a wave of enemies.

 

And inb4 anyone says don't nerf Ash because PvE, PvP changes are INDEPENDENT to PvE. E.g., Update 14.7.0: Operation Gate Crash patch notes:

• PvP Change: Ash’s Bladestorm reduced to 0.25 damage multiplier from 0.5.

Edited October 9, 2014 by RebornsAlmark

[xethier]

 

Okay, let's get this out of the way first, there is anywhere from 20-40% of comments in the PvP feedback section is essentially "I don't PvP, so this doesn't concern me" or "Don't PvP" which is essentially spam in a PvP feedback fourm (the first few replies to this thread are exactly this). The equivalent of this is going to the Dojo feedback section and posting in a random feedback thread, "I don't have a Dojo or plan to get one, so this thread doesn't concern me" or "Just don't make a dojo."

 

-snip-

 

incorrect. i would like to play pvp. but this isn't at all interesting to me.

the current pvp paradigm is broken beyond the point where i will tolerate it.

to protest this (as well as maintain my composure) i refuse to be a part of it until something is done to repair the problems.

 

to use your analogy: "i want a dojo, but i won't build one until i can actually log in and do what i want to do without being flushed out an airlock or stuck in the wall" -- does that make more sense to you?

[RebornsAlmark]

incorrect. i would like to play pvp. but this isn't at all interesting to me.

the current pvp paradigm is broken beyond the point where i will tolerate it.

to protest this (as well as maintain my composure) i refuse to be a part of it until something is done to repair the problems.

 

to use your analogy: "i want a dojo, but i won't build one until i can actually log in and do what i want to do without being flushed out an airlock or stuck in the wall" -- does that make more sense to you?

I hate to single posts out, but please tell me why these following posts are not spam as the message is basically "Don't play PvP" and almost zero constructive feedback on how to overhaul it.

 

I swear to god if I see one more cry post about Ash I'm going to shoot someone. The answer is simple: Don't play PvP

Or you could ask them in chat (as nice as possible) 'Why even play Ash? It's boring, too easy, and just stupid.' 

 

 

beeeeechauuuuse, PvP is fhuunnnnn.

 

in a very particular voice. this voice.

 

 

 

okay, i'm done making fun of PvP for today.

 

 

yes, pvp is broken.

best solution, stop playing it.

don't play dark sectors either so you aren't supporting the clans that own the rails and use your support to pay bait.

 

this way DE can quickly see that interest in this game mode is abysmal and they should nuke it from orbit.

 

I do understand your later post offers the feedback to overhaul the system and abilities of each Warframe completely, and band-aids after band-aids turn you off. But major progress doesn't come in one stroke, everything requires a foundation and constant improvement. Rome wasn't built in a day, nor was the balance in a game like Counter-Strike, Starcraft, or DoTA achieved in a single patch.

 

In fact, Clan Dojos were basically inaccessible for most until a whole patch later as the prices for rooms were insane at the time.

Edited October 9, 2014 by RebornsAlmark

[xethier]

-snip-

 

I do understand your later post offers the feedback to overhaul the system and abilities of each Warframe completely, and band-aids after band-aids turn you off. But major progress doesn't come in one stroke, everything requires a foundation and constant improvement. Rome wasn't built in a day, nor was the balance in a game like Counter-Strike, Starcraft, or DoTA achieved in a single patch.

 

the difference between counter-strike, starcraft and DoTA is that every single one of those games was designed from the ground up to be PvP.

Warframe wasn't. So while I understand your point, major progress, in this case, is a tear-down and rebuild of the system from the perspective of PvP. 

 

without going down to the "bare metal" as it were, it's a half-measure.

[HoakinBlackforge]

Mag's bullet atractor.

 

Except for ash and valkyr, everyone is #*($%%@.

[RebornsAlmark]

the difference between counter-strike, starcraft and DoTA is that every single one of those games was designed from the ground up to be PvP.

Warframe wasn't. So while I understand your point, major progress, in this case, is a tear-down and rebuild of the system from the perspective of PvP. 

 

without going down to the "bare metal" as it were, it's a half-measure.

A complete tear-down and overhaul of the system of Dark Sectors PvP would require a lot of balancing and work, something that DE isn't invested in doing for various reasons like its unpopularity and work on other content (preferring to change damage values or weapons and abilities). The best they can probably do is to change or nerf certain overly strong abilities and weapons constantly in PvP until a certain level of balance is achieved. Additionally, possibly limit mobility (like make coptering less effective) as PvP FPS and TPS (Gears of War, Metal Gear Solid 4 Online, etc) generally do not have the insane mobility that Warframe has; however, that would kill one of the central characteristics of Warframe.

Edited October 9, 2014 by RebornsAlmark

[xethier]

A complete tear-down and overhaul of the system of Dark Sectors PvP would require a lot of balancing and work, something that DE isn't invested in doing for various reasons like its unpopularity and work on other content (preferring to change damage values or weapons and abilities). The best they can probably do is to change or nerf certain overly strong abilities and weapons constantly in PvP until a certain level of balance is achieved. Additionally, possibly limit mobility (like make coptering less effective) as PvP FPS and TPS (Gears of War, Metal Gear Solid 4 Online, etc) generally do not have the insane mobility that Warframe has; however, that would kill one of the central characteristics of Warframe.

 

absolutely correct.

 

and this is exactly why making the dark sector rail control pvp centric was such a bad idea. 

 

if they aren't willing to invest the time and energy in making pvp rewarding, then it shouldn't be gating PvE content.

[taiiat]

A complete tear-down and overhaul of the system of Dark Sectors PvP would require a lot of balancing and work, something that DE isn't invested in doing for various reasons like its unpopularity and work on other content (preferring to change damage values or weapons and abilities). The best they can probably do is to change or nerf certain overly strong abilities and weapons constantly in PvP until a certain level of balance is achieved. Additionally, possibly limit mobility (like make coptering less effective) as PvP FPS and TPS (Gears of War, Metal Gear Solid 4 Online, etc) generally do not have the insane mobility that Warframe has; however, that would kill one of the central characteristics of Warframe.

the way i see it, there's two choices.

 

nerf everythinig into oblivion in PvP.

or get rid of PvP.

 

or secret option 3 - build PvP from the ground up... like you need to do for PvP to be well, fun. and balanced.

 

 

 

but i know option 3 isn't happening, nor do i expect it to.

Warframe isn't about PvP. so then i wonder why it's part of the game. Dark Sector Conflicts could atleast have a non PvP option - because the moment Dark Sectors changed to forced PvP, i stopped giving a single flying f... about them.

[CaveCricket48]

My current anti-Ash method - spam the newly fixed Psychic Bolts from far away.

[REDHOOOD]

My current anti-Ash method - spam the newly fixed Psychic Bolts from far away.

 

I want to share mine... but, nope, changed my mind. 

[Marthrym]

the way i see it, there's two choices.

 

nerf everythinig into oblivion in PvP.

or get rid of PvP.

 

or secret option 3 - build PvP from the ground up... like you need to do for PvP to be well, fun. and balanced.

 

 

 

but i know option 3 isn't happening, nor do i expect it to.

Warframe isn't about PvP. so then i wonder why it's part of the game. Dark Sector Conflicts could atleast have a non PvP option - because the moment Dark Sectors changed to forced PvP, i stopped giving a single flying f... about them.

As much as it pains me, I have to agree. I just completely lost interest in DS the day they became PvP. I suffer from long term PvP burnout. I haven't set foot in DS once since they became PvP only. I have nothing against PvP itself, but in Warframe? It's a bad idea. It created huge problems with Warframe's lore alone. Tenno fighting Tenno for no good reason (creds and resources are not good reasons, especially considering the lore of the Tenno, which while very blurry never states they're mercs fighting each others for shiny stuff), what gives?^^'

Edited October 9, 2014 by Marthrym

[HiTekRedNek]

Well one way they could help improve PvP is to give us dedicated servers, this would remove the problems and advantages caused by player hosted instances and allow us to see what ruly needs to be balanced and what people need to just do some research and learn how to counter (like Ashe, so many ways to counter him it's not even funny, but most people just decide to jump on the forums and B&*^%).

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/319613-dedicated-servers-for-fair-pvp/