Warframe Ability Mods: Coming Changes

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

I'm very comfortable with my current choices and I do not want extra points.  If I did, I would have spent more forma.  The point is that DE is forcing me to have suboptimal builds due to this change.  I have no control over this and if they add in rank 10 mods that have different polarities than what I currently use I may not even be able to slot them without adding additional forma; that's crazy when I already have 10+ unused points as per the 8-slot system.  I would much rather be refunded for all of my forma with Legendary Forma and be able to rebuild every frame according to these new guidelines.  It only seems fair at this point and will not affect new players.  In truth it is a benefit for everyone other than repolarizing the necessary slots (no leveling required).

 

@Ronyn:  My builds are 100% optimal with no wasted points.  The only unused points I have are from polarizing a slot to fit a mod that saves 4+ leaving me with a remainder.  Is it fair for a newer player to have the same build I have and spend 2 less forma just because they applied them after update 15?  Nope.  I'm only asking for a fair solution that provides me with every advantage that newer players get.  In this case, I want to be able to reapply my already invested forma without having to level the frame each time.  EDIT:  If I have unused Legendary Forma then that is my gain as I have already invested the time necessary to install them previously.  Veteran players should not be hurt by this change, which is exactly what DE's solution will do.

 

@Toran:  The point is that I shouldn't be forced to use a suboptimal build just because DE didn't fix the actual problem.  The removal of ability slots and refunding of those slots is one issue.  Next comes how the entire build is affected as having 8 slots will certainly change which mods I use.  By changing the equipped mods I am now optimizing using different polarities, thus I require a different build.  Again, my previous build was optimized according to the current system.  DE is changing that system so the very least they can do is allow me to optimize my builds according to the new system.  Legendary Forma would solve this problem entirely.

Edited October 23, 2014 by (PS4)Hiero_Glyph

[Norry.]

@Ronyn

 

Why leave anyone feel they are negatively affected, whether personally or build based when the solution is easy to prevent that?

Other games offer a skill/talent/whatever reset when changing a mechanic or revamping a game system. Why not Warframe?

 

That's all that's being asked for within Warframe's game mechanics. To effectively give that all they have to do is have these "Legendary Forma" (call them Reset Forma, Beta Forma, the name doesn't really matter...) for every forma used on every frame. These new forma act different in 2 ways:

1) Can be used on something that is any level to polarize a slot.

2) Will not reset level of whatever they are used on.

 

Skill reset. Many, if not all, games have done this very thing on major changes so players can redo at their own choice how they see fit without them being out anything. It's a common thing to do, and I would think just as easy as what they planned, if not easier. Only real issue would be them wasting the time making script to carry out the original plan vs a new one. If they are rushing to get this out and decide not to care about offering this reset, then fine. So be it. The option/idea/method is there to negate all of the complaints about forma and lost time if they choose to use it.

Edited October 23, 2014 by Norry.

[Ronyn]

I'm very comfortable with my current choices and I do not want extra points.  If I did, I would have spent more forma.  The point is that DE is forcing me to have suboptimal builds due to this change.  I have no control over this and if they add in rank 10 mods that have different polarities than what I currently use I may not even be able to slot them without adding additional forma; that's crazy when I already have 10+ unused points as per the 8-slot system.  I would much rather be refunded for all of my forma with Legendary Forma and be able to rebuild every frame according to these new guidelines.  It only seems fair at this point and will not affect new players.  In truth it is a benefit for everyone other than repolarizing the necessary slots (no leveling required).

 

@Ronyn:  My builds are 100% optimal with no wasted points.  The only unused points I have are from polarizing a slot to fit a mod that saves 4+ leaving me with a remainder.  Is it fair for a newer player to have the same build I have and spend 2 less forma just because they applied them after update 15?  Nope.  I'm only asking for a fair solution that provides me with every advantage that newer players get.  In this case, I want to be able to reapply my already invested forma without having to level the frame each time.  EDIT:  If I have unused Legendary Forma then that is my gain as I have already invested the time necessary to install them previously.  Veteran players should not be hurt by this change, which is exactly what DE's solution will do.

I understand what you're saying entirely. I get why some folks like seeing zero left over points. Lost time, feeling like it's easier to get modded builds now than it use to be...all understandable feeling. And even though I don't personally feel "hurt" I am a veteran player as well so I get the investment we have all put into this game. 

 

I'm only pointing out that left over energy is not a negative effect on a two power build. That is to say the build remains in tact.

You loose no powers, you loose no mods, you loose no HP..etc. In terms of the build itself, it is not negatively effected.

 

 

I@Toran:  The point is that I shouldn't be forced to use a suboptimal build just because DE didn't fix the actual problem.  

Calling extra energy "suboptimal" is stretching it. But you're right that there will be need for larger changes to certain builds.

 

@Ronyn

 

Why leave anyone feel they are negatively affected, whether personally or build based when the solution is easy to prevent that?

Other games offer a skill/talent/whatever reset when changing a mechanic or revamping a game system. Why not Warframe?

 

That's all that's being asked for within Warframe's game mechanics. To effectively give that all they have to do is have these "Legendary Forma" (call them Reset Forma, Beta Forma, the name doesn't really matter...) for every forma used on every frame. These new forma act different in 2 ways:

1) Can be used on something that is any level to polarize a slot.

2) Will not reset level of whatever they are used on.

 

Skill reset. Many, if not all, games have done this very thing on major changes so players can redo at their own choice how they see fit without them being out anything. It's a common thing to do, and I would think just as easy as what they planned, if not easier. Only real issue would be them wasting the time making script to carry out the original plan vs a new one. If they are rushing to get this out and decide not to care about offering this reset, then fine. So be it. The option/idea/method is there to negate all of the complaints about forma and lost time if they choose to use it.

Oh hey I've only been discussing the end result of the changes.

I have nothing against the legendary form idea. I have never spoken against it.

In fact I think it's a good solution to the transition itself. 

Edited October 23, 2014 by Ronyn

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

For reference let me explain what I mean by wanting the same benefit as newer players.  Let's say a veteran player had 10 forma and used 3 of it on a warframe, 3 on a second warframe, and 4 on a weapon.  The newer player decides he likes the builds that the veteran player uses, except he/she is applying them after update 15.  The result is that the 3-forma warframe builds only requires 1 forma, so they spend 1 forma on the first warframe, 1 forma on the second, 4 forma on the weapon, and still have 4 forma to spend however they want.  Obviously the player saving 4 forma for the same builds has a significant advantage.  This should not be the case and update 15 should allow veteran players to adapt to the new system, not leave them as outdated relics.

 

EDIT: @Ronyn:  I lose forma as demonstrated above.

Edited October 23, 2014 by (PS4)Hiero_Glyph

[Ronyn]

For reference let me explain what I mean by wanting the same benefit as newer players.  Let's say a veteran player had 10 forma and used 3 of it on a warframe, 3 on a second warframe, and 4 on a weapon.  The newer player decides he likes the builds that the veteran player uses, except he/she is applying them after update 15.  The result is that the 3-forma warframe builds only requires 1 forma, so they spend 1 forma on the first warframe, 1 forma on the second, 4 forma on the weapon, and still have 4 forma to spend however they want.  Obviously the player saving 4 forma for the same builds has a significant advantage.  This should not be the case and update 15 should allow veteran players to adapt to the new system, not leave them as outdated relics.

Certainly legendary forma is the better choice for the transition itself....but I really don't feel like an outdated relic from this change.

 

 

EDIT: @Ronyn:  I lose forma as demonstrated above.

I get it. You used time and/or money that you just didn't need to.

So if you got those now unneeded forma back you could use them elsewhere. OK.

Edited October 23, 2014 by Ronyn

[Norry.]

All of this now seems moot as they have given tomorrow as an estimated release. I find it highly unlikely they would reconsider or redo the script or plans at this point.

 

@Ronyn

 

While the effectiveness of a 2 power build would not have a negative against it, what was spent pre U15 vs post U15 to achieve the same build is what is being considered the negative. You do, clearly, understand that. Thus what's being discussed is 2 different points of the topic and when you said there is no negative, the more accurate thing would have been for you to say that there is no negative towards the effectiveness of the 2 ability build. I think that is where some confusion came from as wasted forma and time is what others are considering the negative moving from Pre to post U15. In that, you are correct. The effectiveness would not be impacted by the update in a negative way. Just the time and earnings (in the form of the forma).

Edited October 23, 2014 by Norry.

[Kachocalvo]

Apple bowl question :)

 

Got this, where A is Apple and P is for Pear (exchanged one of my apples, wanted some variety)

 

(P)()()()(A)

(A)()()()(A)

 

Will I retain my Pear or get the fruit slicer?

[WoozDuz]

PLZ NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO i got only 1 skill on my warframes this sux ....

[bluehawk1976]

Warframe Ability Mods: Coming Changes

 

What about my existing Ability Mods?

All existing Ability Mods won’t be rendered useless - they will be converted into Fusion Cores. Stay tuned for more information on the specifics of this conversion.

 

 

Any more news about this?

[skillabstinenz]

So if I formaed the two top ability slots I'll get two formas and lvling "fun" and if I formaed the two lower slots just the upper slots get removed?

[ndantony]

PLZ NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO i got only 1 skill on my warframes this sux ....

Yeah, somewhat. The only things you lose are the slot where Miasma is and one of the other empty slot where either either Rush or Stretch is...

But you'll get all 4 abilities in return.

[Darkseal]

I could care less about having to re-rank a frame to 30, I'm used to it with all the time I've forma'd frames. But, seeing as I have removed 2 ability slots from ALL 23 of my current frames in inventory this really doesn't effect me at all. What it DOES effect is..... why would I not get a forma back for each of those 2 slots. So what if I kept 2 ability slots.... It was hard work. Each frame is forma'd 3-5 times..... now everyone will get a frame that is equal to a 2 forma frame. this is great for everyone! Except not great to the people who spent that forma on 2 ability slots??

 

I would think regardless of how many ability slots you have left........... You get a forma back for each ability slot you forma'd. Maybe even set a max at 2 per frame.... (currently in inventory) Why would this not be the case?

[skillabstinenz]

Abilities used:
Ash 2
Banshee 2
Ember 2
Excalibur 1 not used
Frost 1 def...
Loki 2
Mag 1,5 anti corpus
Mirage 2
Nekros 1,5 heavily used
Nova 1,5 heavily used
Nyx 3 only used for "Hosting X need ..."
Oberon 2
Rhino 2
Saryn 1,5
Trinity 3 only used for "Hosting X need ..."
Valkyr 2
Vauban 2
Volt 3 not used
Zephyr 3 < Mirage/Mag

Nerf? Nerf!

What about the corrupted mods in use? They prevent one from using all abilities. As your main ability gets better, the crappy ones get even corrupted!

What good are all abilities if most are crappy or corrupted?

Edited October 25, 2014 by skillabstinenz

[nick9445]

Yeah!, I was tired of having to pick and choose mods. Not having enough room to make a warframe stronger or faster. This makes my day.

Thank you DE, :) 

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

@Darkseal

 

Off-Topic:  It's "I couldn't care less" because if you could care less, why wouldn't you?  Most Americans butcher this phrase and as a fellow American it absolutely drives me crazy that they simply accept it despite the phrase having the opposite meaning.

 

On-Topic:  I agree that some form of refund should be given.  While I am personally advocating for the use of Legendary Forma as a refund, I agree that some form of compensation needs to be provided and this script hardly qualifies.

[Loswaith]

That only applies if you have not formaed any slots. Then the top left and top right will be removed. If you have formaed those slots the script will search for 2 available ability slots and remove those instead. So as long as you have only polarized 2 out of the 4 ability slots the unmodded slots will be removed, the 2 formaed will remain untouched and you will receive 0 forma back.

Actually the example is still ambigious between what a slot was originally or what it is currently.

 

Lets say the ability bowls are; top left is red (p cause r makes it a registered sign), top right is blue(b), bottom left is green(g) and bottom right is yellow(y), all others are white(w).

(p) (w) (w) (w) (b)

(g) (w) (w) (w) (y)

DE has mentioned removing the red and blue bowls.

 

If it based on what was originally apples, the red and blue bowls will be removed reguardless of whether they have apples or have been chaned to other fruit, even if the bowls were moved to something like this:

(w) (w) (p) (w) (w)

(g) (b) (w) (w) (y)

The red and blue will still be removed, reimbursing the forma if one has fruit other than an apple in it

 

However if it is based on what currently apples, and you have changed the red bowl to another fruit it will now remove the blue and green bowls.  If you changed the red and blue bowls it will remove the green and yellow ones.  If you changed all of them it will then remove the red and blue bowls anyway.

 

However there is an issue if you took away an apple from the red, blue bowl without moving them and just left it empty, since DE is taking away all fruit.

If its the original bowls, thus the red and blue ones, the player would get back forma for removing or changing the fruit.  However if they changed the fruit more than once they will get only one forma still (thus lose out on the additional forma used).

 

If it is the current bowls and you removed fruit from say the red and/or blue bowls then it will take away the green/yellow bowl and not refund the forma for taking away the fruit which the player had already done. (thus losing the forma for de-polarising the slot for flexability).

 

Honestly the 'Legendary Forma' idea is really the only true fair way to do the change over.  The only real difference legendary forma needs from the current forma is that it doesnt rest the frame back to rank 0.

 

All thats needed is a simple single line if statement on the forma process:

if(usedForma != legendary) { PLAYER.frame.resetRanks(); }     // reset frame rank if not using legendary forma

 

Now the script just resets all frame polarities to the default 8 layout and gives the player legendary forma equal to the number of times they did forma each specific frame.

Edited October 24, 2014 by Loswaith

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

@Loswaith

 

You can give them the correct answer but they may choose not to hear it.

 

EDIT:  Honestly the only drawback to the to the Legendary Forma idea is the need to reapply said forma.  Given that Legendary Forma would not require leveling to apply, the only problem is players not knowing what their previous builds included.  Many veterans use other resources to track this information but for those that do not, the new Syndicate mods will probably change their builds anyway.  In all honesty the game is basically starting over and having a pre-forma'd frame is likely a disadvantage at this point.

Edited October 24, 2014 by (PS4)Hiero_Glyph

[ThePresident777]

We are actually talking about 2 separate changes happening at the same time here.  The first change is abilities becoming always present, instead of remaining mod cards, i.e. Abilities 2.0.  The second change is the loss of two mod slots, 8 mod slots instead of 10, i.e. Slots 2.0.  Aura slot remains separate and unchanged.

 

As I've stated before, making abilities always present does nothing to make people want to use them.  Abilities 2.0 will not change that nor is Abilities 1.0 a hindrance for this.  So, Abilities 2.0 can't be about people wanting to use abilities they did not want to use before the change.  I don't see what is so great about carrying around stuff you don't want to use.

 

Augment mods are possible with either Abilities/Slots 2.0 or 1.0.  Augment mods have nothing in actuality to do with Ability 2.0 or Slots 2.0.  So we can't say that Abilities/Slots 2.0 are good because of augment mods.  Augment mods are a separate issue.

 

People say that with 6 slots, the Tenno are too powerful, so 10 is too much.  Then they say 8 is good.  It doesn't add up.  Power issues have nothing to do with Ability/Slots 2.0.  They happen regardless.

 

There is really nothing about Abilities/Slots 2.0 that implies the many changes that people ask for on these forums other than being forced to carry all 4 abilities and having 8 mods instead of 10.  I don't see what is so exciting about that.  Abilities/Slots 2.0 reminds me of Damage 2.0: not what advocates wanted in reality, thankfully.

Edited October 24, 2014 by ThePresident777

[Ronyn]

Let's be clear. Singling out certain aspects of this situation then trying to talk about them in a vacuum is a thinly veiled attempt to dismiss information that might run contrary to ones assertions. 

 

We are actually talking about 2 separate changes happening at the same time here.  The first change is abilities becoming always present, instead of remaining mod cards, i.e. Abilities 2.0.  The second change is the loss of two mod slots, 8 mod slots instead of 10, i.e. Slots 2.0.  Aura slot remains separate and unchanged.

 

As I've stated before, making abilities always present does nothing to make people want to use them.  Abilities 2.0 will not change that nor is Abilities 1.0 a hindrance for this.  So, Abilities 2.0 can't be about people wanting to use abilities they did not want to use before the change.

 

Augment mods are possible with either Abilities/Slots 2.0 or 1.0.  Augment mods have nothing in actuality to do with Ability 2.0 or Slots 2.0.  So we can't say that Abilities/Slots 2.0 are good because of augment mods.  Augment mods are a separate issue.

So we have 3 issues here.

1: Ever present abilities.

2: Number of mod slots.

3: Ability Augment system.

 

Now, each of us will have different opinions about these individual issues as well as the subject as a whole.

And while we can make valid points about each singular issue and state our views on them, it is simply a bunch of bunk to suggest that these three issues are not so intertwined that any single one of them can be accurately discussed without considering the impact of the others.

Certainly any single feature can be applied or not applied with or without either of the other two features, however the result of the combination of things is what will Ultimately decide the balance of power, the level of customization and the combat model. Which is also affected by other issues like continued frame re-works that impacts whether having 4 powers is beneficial or useless. It ALL works together.

 

People say that with 6 slots, the Tenno are too powerful, so 10 is too much.  Then they say 8 is good.  It doesn't add up.  Power issues have nothing to do with Ability/Slots 2.0.  They happen regardless.

There are a great many people playing this game with a great many different opinions about where frames sit on balance.

Pointing out that people will complain at any amount of mods serves no purpose. Of course SOMEONE will. The point is-

A frames power ceiling and versatility is definitely affected by number of mod slots. Obviously different frames are at different levels of balance toward DE's intended median so there is not a consistent level throughout. Of course, DE should continue to take steps to reach that intended median.

 

There is really nothing about Abilities/Slots 2.0 that implies the many changes that people ask for on these forums other than being forced to carry all 4 abilities and having 8 mods instead of 10.  I don't see what is so exciting about that.  Abilities/Slots 2.0 reminds me of Damage 2.0: not what advocates wanted in reality, thankfully.

Depending on who you ask..this change was asked for and very exciting OR it is bad and shouldn't happen.

[Archangelzz]

I would like to know when and if we will get the ability to have interchangeable or swappable abilities so that we can evolve so to speak from our 4 basic powers to more advanced ones. I mean Excalibur for instance is supposed to be some sort of blademaster or melee frame that deals with swords but he has really only one sword like ability slash dash.

[(XBOX)RVN World News]

So no further information about which fusion cores we will be getting for the ability mods we have already that arent maxed? Or unranked? what about if we forma a frame? Do our already maxed abilities get de ranked as well? sure as heck hope not.

Edited October 24, 2014 by (XB1)Onyx Guarrd

[Vitalidad]

I'm trying to save some time here. What if, I forma'd my top left and/or top right ability slot. Should I now just swap them with the bottom ability slots? Would that help me keep the two polarities? I'm not sure if a script will search for the top left and top right slots, while checking if they were swapped, and then drop them wherever they are. Or it will look at the top left/right slots and check if they have ability slots first. Then it would decide to drop them if so. Otherwise, it would then look for the original top left/right slots.

 

I understand I will be refunded the forma used, and while having to rank up a frame will not be bad, I want to know if I could save the time of not ranking up again. Again, it would not bother me much to rank up again, I just want to know if I would really need to do so.

[Darkseal]

@Darkseal

 

Off-Topic:  It's "I couldn't care less" because if you could care less, why wouldn't you? ....

 

I "could" care less.... I choose not to. You don't know me!!@1!

 

 

I welcome all changes DE has. The game changes. Heck, if it didn't I might not play it so much. I do not/will not debate things like "good or bad" when it comes to changes in Warframe. Looking at the way the Devs here listen to players, I don't worry about things they change. If they get tons of unwanted blow-back from the changes made they will fix it. If anyone ever listened to a fan base it's DE. Want to change XYZ in the game? Bring it on....

 

now.... about that Forma... Like I said before, I could care less (just for you :wink:) about having to re-rank. Red, Blue, apples, peaches,... If I spent a forma polarizing an ability slot, I would like said forma back. If they choose not to do it, I can understand. Do I think it's fair? Not really. But people gotta eat... If I equate 20plat a forma to cash, and apply time to fun ratio; DE, do what you gotta do. But I still think forma refunded on all ability polarizations would be cool. Even if I could get half...

 

 

Anyway, you all have my $0.02 USD

Edited October 24, 2014 by Darkseal

[Loswaith]

I'm trying to save some time here. What if, I forma'd my top left and/or top right ability slot. Should I now just swap them with the bottom ability slots? Would that help me keep the two polarities? I'm not sure if a script will search for the top left and top right slots, while checking if they were swapped, and then drop them wherever they are. Or it will look at the top left/right slots and check if they have ability slots first. Then it would decide to drop them if so. Otherwise, it would then look for the original top left/right slots.

 

I understand I will be refunded the forma used, and while having to rank up a frame will not be bad, I want to know if I could save the time of not ranking up again. Again, it would not bother me much to rank up again, I just want to know if I would really need to do so.

AFAIK: About the only part confirmed without ambguity is that if you have moved your slots around it wont matter, as the system knows which ones are from the default locations.  IE if you move the top ones to the bottom it will target the two moved to the bottom first still.

[KairaSilvermist]

This will save me some forma on a planned build, and I am greatly looking forward to these changes :3