Do Something About Serration And Hornet Strike.

[Innocent_Flower]

Mods that triple your damage. Unless you're playing on a very low level game and don't want to make it too easy; You're going to equip these mods on any weapon that can take them. 

 

They're overpowered and add nothing to customisation or the game. Seriously. In what way do they make the game better? Do they make you more powerful? I suppose; But you're just getting more powerful to deal with lancers who have higher numbers. There's no meaningful progression with your tripple damage. It's just taking up a mod slot. As a bonus, even if you've got some great build that doesn't use these mods.. your teammates will have a better build because they do use them. 

 They will likely out-compete you. 

In the long run. They're bad for the game. Some possible solutions; 

 

- weaken them to the point that they're optional. They still have ten levels. But you don't need them if you want to play a high level game . You'd also be fine with having a max level mod on a low-tier game. You could up your firerate or increase specific types of damage instead. (rework level scalling) 

 

- Replace with cores and credits. You'd get a lot.  Rework level scalling. 

 

- Split the mod into several other dual stat serrations/hornet strikes. +damage -clipsize, +damage -accuracy, +damage +recoil, +damage -reload speed. That way you've still got the mods- there's just some level of originality in choosing what one you like best. 

 

And buff the mods that need buffing maybe? Y'know. +puncture or +status chance. maybe add stuff for specific enemies. 

 

Some things that need to happen anyway

Fix of level scalling (i got a pretty good thread on it here: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/328207-so-theres-a-big-guy-in-big-armour-and-hes-pathetic-here-and-godly-there/

Rebalancing/rework of some other mods.Would fix any concerns that other mods would become "essential" in replacement. 

Edited October 25, 2014 by Innocent_Flower

[LeadToRise]

Nope.

 

 

TL;DR and yes they also make you powerful.

Edited October 25, 2014 by Haldos
Removed quote.

[CrazyCatLad]

I get what you're going for OP but I'm okay with how it is currently.

[Phoenix86]

i love big numbers.

 

besides, this game is all about bullet sponges, you cant take off serration & co. without a massive overhaul of the whole system (screwing all the "balance")

[FarStike]

No - If someone puts them in an uber weapon, that's their business. The flip side of the coin is that you can suddenly find a use for underpowered weapons that you might actually enjoy playing but couldn't otherwise.

 

The real reason I disagree with your suggestion is endless missions (Void Defense and Survival). This is where my fun comes from and even with the advantages of Serration, it stops being effective after enough waves. Without them we couldn't progress far enough.

[123Olympian]

No, people like working their way up, one large reason why people play the game.

[tzaeru]

The real reason I disagree with your suggestion is endless missions (Void Defense and Survival). This is where my fun comes from and even with the advantages of Serration, it stops being effective after enough waves. Without them we couldn't progress far enough.

 

I do believe that the OP's idea is that the base damage would be buffed a little and scaled differently to mostly uphold the current balance and possibilities, and damage mods with drawbacks be added. (drawbacks like neg to accuracy etc)

 

It is very much true that some mods, like Serration, you just always have on! If you always use something no matter what and no matter the situation (unless purposefully gimping yourself, why the need to specifically wear it?, unless:

 

No, people like working their way up, one large reason why people play the game.

 

I tend to think so too. :)

Edited October 23, 2014 by tzaeru

[Tsukinoki]

I have to disagree for two big reasons:
1) It provides a sense of progression.
I've played lots of games where for the most part the level scaling is flat and players dont get noticeably OP, even when they go back to the lower levels to kick around a bit.
And you want to know the problem I have with those games?
Whats the point of going to a higher level at all?  It'll be *exactly* the same as playing on the level I am now.  And it doesn't even give me the option to just go back to a low level area and kick the crap out of things that were hard before just for laughs (or to just emulate some Dynasty Warriors like action).
Without a damage mod or something that takes a while to level up and allows you to actually compete in the harder content what sense of progression would be left at all?

2) What will you do with the next mod or two that is required in every single weapon because its the next best?
Because these arguments for removing a mod will always go in an endless cycle because we remove this mod and it'll be replaced by the next best that people will complain is not mandatory until we dont have any mods left.

[StinkyPygmy]

I agree, especially seeing as they make Physical dmg mods and types somewhat redundent. The fact that people see them as "essential mods" is a problem, especially seeing as that is not the case. You can get by just fine if you use the right elemental mods and set ups. Even into the long Defences and survivals past what the game is even balanced for.

 

Remove them (or take them down a few notches) and buff single dmg mod types IMO.

Hornet strike and serration are one of the reasons power creep is such a problem and they are the definition of redundant in anycase. Its the overkill equivalent of using an ogris on 1 lvl4 butcher, but for the entirety of the game...

Unless you're taking on level 70ish enemies they are not needed by any means. 

 

If single dmg mods and are rebalanced to actually be valuable, it will encourage people to mod a bit more faction appropriately dmg wise and wont hurt new players that need serration to progress (apparently thats an issue). At the very least, make serration only affect physical dmg types and not also any elemental dmg types you have slapped on.

 

If other dmg mods were balanced appropriately then they wouldn't even be seen as necessary.

Edited October 23, 2014 by StinkyPygmy

[Tr1ples1xer]

OMG you again, just stop !!

 

No one ever complained of being too powerful in a videogame ever !!!

 

Don't max serration and you're done.

 

And please never say ''OP'' you lose 100% of credibility when you say it and mean it.

[StinkyPygmy]

OMG you again, just stop !!

 

No one ever complained of being too powerful in a videogame ever !!!

 

Don't max serration and you're done.

 

And please never say ''OP'' you lose 100% of credibility when you say it and mean it.

I feel like you've said the "no one ever complained about being to powerful in a video game ever" line before somewhere on the forums and I remember how wrong you were. Especially considering to many people the fun comes from challenge and not easy mode 100% of the time. Its also a common complaint that WF is too easy without nerfing yourself on the forums.

Easy mode is fun in short bursts.

Either way at least OP has an argument as to why they think this is a good idea. What compelling supporting argument do you have?

Other then "because no".

 

Its also interesting to note that I normally don't agree with many of Innocent_flowers threads.

In this case I happen to agree. I've been thinking the same thing for a while. The only compelling argument against this that I've seen is born of a fear of changing mechanics and a little bit of rebalancing that will needed in regard to some dmg mods.

You will still be able to go for absurdly long survivals without pure dmg mods and you will still be OP. In anycase you can just head on down to 90% of the starchart and feel like a god regardless of setup.

Edited October 23, 2014 by StinkyPygmy

[(PSN)LK-GriM]

Mods that triple your damage. Unless you're playing on a very low level game and don't want to make it too easy; You're going to equip these mods on any weapon that can take them. 

 

They're overpowered and add nothing to customisation or the game. Seriously. In what way do they make the game better? Do they make you more powerful? I suppose; But you're just getting more powerful to deal with lancers who have higher numbers. There's no meaningful progression with your tripple damage. It's just taking up a mod slot. 

 

In the long run. They're bad for the game. Some possible solutions; 

 

- weaken them to the point that they're optional. They still have ten levels. But you don't need them if you want to play t4 survival. You could up your firerate or increase specific types of damage instead. (rework level scalling) 

 

- Replace with cores and credits. You'd get a lot.  Rework level scalling. 

 

- Split the mod into several other dual stat mods. +damage -clipsize, +damage -accuracy, +damage +recoil, +damage -reload speed.

Hahahaha...NO! You can leave now. Mods please lock or delete this thread.

[Tr1ples1xer]

I feel like you've said the "no one ever complained about being to powerful in a video game ever" line before somewhere on the forums and I remember how wrong you were. Especially consider to many people the fun comes from challenge and not easy mode 100% of the time.

Easy mode is fun in short bursts.

Either way at least OP has an argument as to why they think this is a good idea. What compelling supporting argument do you have?

Other then "because no".

Ok then: because he can already have what he wants, the game gives you choices, max serration or not, you don't have to put serration on your build if you don't like damage and killing things. You want a pee shooter ? fine don't equip any mods on your guns now thats gonna be fun right ? My whole point is that he can already do what he is asking for, why does he want to remove it for every other player who likes wrecking havok just because HE thinks its too easy ?

 

The whole point of the game is to progress and max your gear but you don't have to if you don't want thats the beauty of choices. Don't equip any mods whatsoever and leave us our fun. /thread

[Otenko]

I agree, especially seeing as they make Physical dmg mods and types somewhat redundent. The fact that people see them as "essential mods" is a problem, especially seeing as that is not the case. You can get by just fine if you use the right elemental mods and set ups. Even into the long Defences and survivals past what the game is even balanced for.

 

Remove them (or take them down a few notches) and buff single dmg mod types IMO.

Hornet strike and serration are one of the reasons power creep is such a problem and they are the definition of redundant in anycase. Unless you're taking on level 70ish enemies they are not needed by any means. 

 

If single dmg mods and are rebalanced to actually be valuable, it will encourage people to mod a bit more faction appropriately dmg wise and wont hurt new players that need serration to progress (apparently thats an issue). At the very least, make serration only affect physical dmg types and not also any elemental dmg types you have slapped on.

 

If other dmg mods were balanced appropriately then they wouldn't even be seen as necessary.

Verily.

 

I think we're way too strong in this game as well; power is on an infinite skyward flight.

 

Although, I think that this would cause the weapons with "even-split" damage types to be slighted by this. Naturally, weapons with high single types will be the weapon to use because they get the highest bonus (assuming the scaling for these physical damage mods are the same as it currently is).

 

I think this would indirectly harm weapons like the Seer, Sybaris, Twin Gremlins, because though they may have more rounded in damage types, they will definitely not scale as well as say...a Snipetron with the +puncture damage mod.

 

The even-split damage weapons would have to equip more mods to achieve a similar effect. I think it would end up causing the even-split weapons to be good for lower-level players that don't have the space or mods to keep changing their loadout and being all but ignored by players that know what they are fighting and can mod accordingly.

 

Even though Seer is one of my favorite weapons, I'd actually still support this change (at least to see how it'll turn out). Serration is the most boring mod that I can currently think of (that actually goes on weapons). It's completely brainless, because it objectively makes every gun stronger.

 

EDIT: While Pygmy's (and by proxy, mine) opinion may be considered dissenting, I hope that critics will bear in mind that everyone has a differing opinion (yes, even you). Therefore, let's keep it civil.

Edited October 23, 2014 by Otenko

[Stormandreas]

I feel like you've said the "no one ever complained about being to powerful in a video game ever" line before somewhere on the forums and I remember how wrong you were. Especially considering to many people the fun comes from challenge and not easy mode 100% of the time. Its also a common complaint that WF is too easy without nerfing yourself on the forums.

Easy mode is fun in short bursts.

Either way at least OP has an argument as to why they think this is a good idea. What compelling supporting argument do you have?

Other then "because no".

 

Its also interesting to note that I normally don't agree with many of Innocent_flowers threads.

In this case I happen to agree. I've been thinking the same thing for a while. The only compelling argument against this that I've seen is born of a fear of changing mechanics and a little bit of rebalancing that will needed in regard to some dmg mods.

You will still be able to go for absurdly long survivals without pure dmg mods and you will still be OP. In anycase you can just head on down to 90% of the starchart and feel like a god regardless of setup.

Easymode in Warframe is Rhino.

If you want a challenge, actually MAKE it for yourself, thats the whole point of this game. You are supposed to challenge yourself.

Example: I've challenged myself to now collect every mod and max them all. After that, I'm going to max out the codex. After that, I'm going for challenge runs (high defence runs, long survivals etc.)

It's all about challenging yourself, and maxing out rank 10 mods is one of those challenges you can set yourself, and you're equally rewarded for doing so.

[shut]

I agree with what you're getting at; mods like Serration and Hornet Strike do absolutely nothing to increase variety in the game. The problem with their removal is that, once they're gone, there would only be another set of mods (e.g. elements) dubbed as "absolutely 100% essential" to take their place-- meaning that you've just nerfed everyone's damage without doing anything to increase build variety.

The game isn't set up for a large-scale damage decrease like this to ever happen. If we are to tweak the necessity or existence of Base Damage mods for the sake of increasing variety, then the entire mod system (as well as the enemy scaling system) needs to be revamped. As much as I'm all for this, this is going to take ages to do; and even if the devs wanted it to happen, it would be (understandably) very low on the priority list.

Improving build variety is always going to be a priority for the devs, but there are simply too many other problems that need their attention first. Until they've miraculously fleshed out every major problem in the game, I think the current system is okay for now. Evidently, so does most of our playerbase.

EDIT:

No

Posts like these need to be punishable in the Feedback sections. No matter how many players agree or disagree with your opinion, this is hardly more than mindless spam in terms of how much it contributes to a rational discussion. You are doing nothing to improve the state of our game. Edited October 23, 2014 by SortaRandom

[UseAndGo]

If you tone down serration and hornet strike enough then we have rely on crits and that isnt something I look for.

 

I prefer something solid as flat damage than "pray on the RNG gods that I crit alot". RNG isnt viable option for main damage source cause even if you had 99% crit chanse you can still "in theory" hit no crit streaks that are way too long.

 

So every game "so far" has something essential that everyone has to use or should use, ofcourse you can go away from this, but if there is/would be something that would be even nearly as good I would try it myself. But gutting out serration/hornet strike makes plenty of weapons way too weak even to think full crit/status build would cover the time to kill mobs or avoid their damage.

 

so thats that.

[StinkyPygmy]

I don't agree so lock this thread.

fixed that for ya.

 

 

 

Ok then: because he can already have what he wants, the game gives you choices, max serration or not, you don't have to put serration on your build if you don't like damage and killing things. You want a pee shooter ? fine don't equip any mods on your guns now thats gonna be fun right ? My whole point is that he can already do what he is asking for, why does he want to remove it for every other player who likes wrecking havok just because HE thinks its too easy ?

 

The whole point of the game is to progress and max your gear but you don't have to if you don't want thats the beauty of choices. Don't equip any mods whatsoever and leave us our fun. /thread

If these mods are literally the definition of over kill then what is anyone losing without them? they don't give a sense of progression and all they do is make other mods redundant. Either way its simply a suggestion, but no, rather then approach the discussion with a degree of tact and critical thinking people would rather just type angry, disgruntled responses.

Just because OP suggested it doesn't mean you have to feel threated that it might happen.

 

Alas, the pathological fear of change the forums have is the MO.

If changes are supposed to make the game better then chances are if done right everyone will be more or less happy.

ever consider that the buffing of certain mods and weapons that may require these mods would be in order?

There would be less redundent mods and less of a "slap on serration and forget" mentality?

Hypothetically, if pure dmg mods were removed, you would still be just as godly as before because currently they serve no perpose except to make other mods pointless and push the limit of your weapons from lvl 80 enemies down to 70. That is beyond what DE has said they balance for.

 

That fact you can get there easily without these mods is saying a lot about how "necessary" they are.

[(PSN)Hollow118]

Sorry but I disagree. The only way this would be considered is if Damage actually scaled as you leveled up the weapons which we know won't happen since all augments run through the mod system. That's the reason we need these mods otherwise you can hardly last against high level enemies.

[akira_him]

Please bxxtch,

the tenno are the strongest individuals in the solar system

shoot enemies like shooting ducks is what we are supposed to do

[xethier]

i think most people are upset about the lack of variety (loss of one mod slot) that comes about from serration.

sure, but honestly almost every mod that folks use adds damage in one way or another...

 

serration should stay in. one of the reasons why it exists (and is also a 10 rank mod) is a gating mechanism.

you have to spend time, credits and cores leveling that sucker up to 10.

this keeps you playing and is a substitute to leveling via affinity.

 

this *is* progression. leveling a warframe takes about 3 hours if you're being at all serious about it.

leveling a serration takes 2+ million credits and 264 r5 fusion cores.

you're *not* going to get there in a brief amount of time.

[Tr1ples1xer]

fixed that for ya.

 

 

 

If these mods are literally the definition of over kill then what is anyone losing without them? they don't give a sense of progression and all they do is make other mods redundant. Either way its simply a suggestion, but no, rather then approach the discussion with a degree of tact and critical thinking people would rather just type angry, disgruntled responses.

Just because OP suggested it doesn't mean you have to feel threated that it might happen.

 

Alas, the pathological fear of change the forums have is the MO.

If changes are supposed to make the game better then chances are if done right everyone will be more or less happy.

ever consider that the buffing of certain mods and weapons that may require these mods would be in order?

There would be less redundent mods and less of a "slap on serration and forget" mentality?

Hypothetically, if pure dmg mods were removed, you would still be just as godly as before because currently they serve no perpose except to make other mods pointless and push the limit of your weapons from lvl 80 enemies down to 70. That is beyond what DE has said they balance for.

 

That fact you can get there easily without these mods is saying a lot about how "necessary" they are.

First of all, I am not angry at all and I'm being civil here.

 

If you think serration is not needed then that's your opinion and thats all good, but I do not agree, to me it is vital and the first r10 mod I maxed because who doens't want more damage ?

 

You can't replace serration because it takes up one mod slot and gives 165% dmg, you'd want to make 3 mods out of it for the same amount of dmg ? it does not work, I'm sorry.

[StinkyPygmy]

Verily.

 

I think we're way too strong in this game as well; power is on an infinite skyward flight.

 

Although, I think that this would cause the weapons with "even-split" damage types to be slighted by this. Naturally, weapons with high single types will be the weapon to use because they get the highest bonus (assuming the scaling for these physical damage mods are the same as it currently is).

 

I think this would indirectly harm weapons like the Seer, Sybaris, Twin Gremlins, because though they may have more rounded in damage types, they will definitely not scale as well as say...a Snipetron with the +puncture damage mod.

 

The even-split damage weapons would have to equip more mods to achieve a similar effect. I think it would end up causing the even-split weapons to be good for lower-level players that don't have the space or mods to keep changing their loadout and being all but ignored by players that know what they are fighting and can mod accordingly.

 

Even though Seer is one of my favorite weapons, I'd actually still support this change (at least to see how it'll turn out). Serration is the most boring mod that I can currently think of (that actually goes on weapons). It's completely brainless, because it objectively makes every gun stronger.

 

EDIT: While Pygmy's (and by proxy, mine) opinion may be considered dissenting, I hope that critics will bear in mind that everyone has a differing opinion (yes, even you). Therefore, let's keep it civil.

True, but seeing as each faction has a 25% weakness to at least one physical dmg type, you can chuck on say, puncture for grineer, impcat for corpus etc, to circumvent that. Also Elemental mods still exist.

 

Easymode in Warframe is Rhino.

If you want a challenge, actually MAKE it for yourself, thats the whole point of this game. You are supposed to challenge yourself.

Example: I've challenged myself to now collect every mod and max them all. After that, I'm going to max out the codex. After that, I'm going for challenge runs (high defence runs, long survivals etc.)

It's all about challenging yourself, and maxing out rank 10 mods is one of those challenges you can set yourself, and you're equally rewarded for doing so.

I do make challenge for myself. But there is a difference between making challenges and nerfing yourself. In anycase, its not that these mods make the game to easy (I don't even use them), its that they are unnecessary as you can get just as far with the right elemental mods etc. If I can get to 60ish min T4 survivals with a sybaris and no serration at all and find myself killing heavy gunners in a few shots then that says a lot about how needed it is. We can still surpass what teh game is balanced for without pure dmg mods. So all they do is hurt other aspects.

 

Like I said, all they do is make other mods redundant. They aren't actually needed.

Edited October 23, 2014 by StinkyPygmy

[Innocent_Flower]

Could someone explain to me why they like serration/hornet strike and how it adds to the game? 

[Tr1ples1xer]

Could someone explain to me why they like serration/hornet strike and how it adds to the game? 

Are you serious ?

 

Serration is the best mod in the game !! its the first mod I focused on maxing, it helps you kill stuff faster because thats the ONLY thing you do in this game GO FAST AND KILL STUFF.

 

Serration FTW.

 

Now can you explain why you don't like it ? With all your posts I see I have a feeling WF might not be the game for you...

Edited October 23, 2014 by Tr1ples1xer