Do Something About Serration And Hornet Strike.

[(XBOX)ShapelessHorr0r]

The Idea is to lessen the extremeness of the former so we less need the latter.

You're asking a tad too much from an MMO then.

A free-to-play one at that.

[Innocent_Flower]

The game is far more of a third person shooter than an MMO. 

[(XBOX)ShapelessHorr0r]

The game is far more of a third person shooter than an MMO.

The term "MMO" is broad stroking. Planetside 2 is a MMO-FPS. Warframe is MMO -TPS.

You could probably switch out "MMO" with "RPG" considering that only four players can be anywhere at once (save for dojos).

Regardless, let's stay on topic.

Edited October 25, 2014 by (XB1)ShapelessHorr0r

[Sasquatchias]

Personally I'd be all for Serration/Hornet Strike being removed in favor of an actual leveling system which does progression better, but at this point in time I think it is a very unlikely thing to happen.

 

The next best option I feel would be to instead reduce the amount of damage they add into more...manageable, for lack of a better word, amounts. And while this is wishful thinking, I believe the amount should be be at a place where even the lowest level of enemies takes more than one-shot to kill, and even Vor can take 2 or more clips to the face before retreating into his safety bubble and not be steamrolled entirely due to numbers.

 

Essentially I want them to be at an amount that makes you stronger, but not strong enough to steamroll every single piece of content or make the new guy who doesn't have his mods maxed beside you look like the weakest thing in the galaxy.

 

The downside to this (aside from the huge amount of people *@##$ing that they won't be able to go and play in T4 Survival for 2 or more hours even though the game is not @(*()$ balanced around that and they refuse to listen) is that a lot of work would have to be put in to rescaling enemies, improving matchmaking, and balancing out the other damage mods.

Edited October 25, 2014 by Sasquatch180

[StinkyPygmy]

Ah, I thought I was being not-so demanding with the whole "some possible sollutions" thing.

 

Lots of users have different opinions on feedback though. Some will prefer you to only state what you don't like and not give solutions. Some will want to focus on the solutions you have as a "this is a problem" would be meaningless to them.  

Its your thread, address it how you wish. If you want to give solutions then give them.

 

You're asking a tad too much from an MMO then.

A free-to-play one at that.

That really isn't asking too much. Things that have been seen as too big or too indepth have be done before in WF and other f2P games.

This is small fry and is really just a shifting of mechanics and achieving difficulty beyond endless scaling. Its not that hard to achieve and steps have been made to create more versatile forms of difficulty. The only reason its a challenge now is because endless scaling has been a part of WF since its infancy and as a result most new content is heavily ingrained in that.

Which is why even suggesting the removal or rework of pure dmg mods is mostly met with vitriol. 

Edited October 25, 2014 by StinkyPygmy

[Tsukinoki]

@Sasquatch180
Problem with that is that it leads to a very boring and samey feel throughout the entire game where you don't feel like you've gotten any stronger at all.

I've played games with very flat scaling and its boring and doesn't feel like I've progressed or gotten stronger when the following occurs:
Takes me 6-7 shots to kill a low level enemy as I just start the game with the basic equipment.  When I get to the end game and farm up the best weapon it still takes me 6-7 shots to kill the grunt enemies I'm fighting.  I go back to the starting area and now it takes only 4 or 5 shots to kill them.
It really feels like you became stronger and better through putting time into the game! /s
It becomes: "Why try getting the strongest weapons?  Everything will still feel exactly the same as it does now..." and removes a lot of the satisfaction of leveling the weapons and mods and then finding the best build for it.

What's the point of progressing and getting better stuff when you will barely be doing more than a completely fresh character?

Edited October 25, 2014 by Tsukinoki

[Liminal]

@Sasquatch180

Problem with that is that it leads to a very boring and samey feel throughout the entire game where you don't feel like you've gotten any stronger at all.

I've played games with very flat scaling and its boring and doesn't feel like I've progressed or gotten stronger when the following occurs:

Takes me 6-7 shots to kill a low level enemy as I just start the game with the basic equipment.  When I get to the end game and farm up the best weapon it still takes me 6-7 shots to kill the grunt enemies I'm fighting.  I go back to the starting area and now it takes only 4 or 5 shots to kill them.

It really feels like you became stronger and better through putting time into the game! /s

It becomes: "Why try getting the strongest weapons?  Everything will still feel exactly the same as it does now..." and removes a lot of the satisfaction of leveling the weapons and mods and then finding the best build for it.

What's the point of progressing and getting better stuff when you will barely be doing more than a completely fresh character?

That is one way to view this, but I'm of another mind. I believe flat scaling improves replayability a lot: you could have each planet with a different tileset and one of each mission type, and that's quite a lot more content than most coop games give you. Flat scaling also gives the devs more freedom when designing enemies, and it allows them to balance enemies far more easily (eg: they wouldn't have to resort to invincibility phases in bosses).

 

Progress in this case would be tied to simply getting more content. But I understand not everyone would enjoy that kind of reward.

[Innocent_Flower]

I don't intend for scaling to be entirely flat. Think of turning a mountain into a small hill. There's advantage in the highground, but not invulnerability. 

[DSpite]

Absolutely none of this is relevant. You upset because I refered to you as a devils advocate? I mean, rather than give some new information on why these mods should stay exactly the same, or reasons why they shouldn't changed, you've instead chosen to give another lecture on your opinions concerning feedback. Sunshine I've seen them before. You're kinda making the opposing side look weaker because you don't tackle the subject directly. You think of new scenarios that don't need to exist. Or issues that could be fixed with something stated. 

 

Yes, lets remove Serration and Hornet Strike totally from the game. Every gun drops to a lower DPS level. Everyone plays as per usual, planet nodes just take longer and maybe 2 hours Survivals and Defense are no longer possible, and instead people run them for 1 hour only.

 

Brilliant. You have just shifted the entire game from one level to another and nothing changes. It would be identical to DE just upping HP on every mob in the game, just done from one angle instead of another.

 

 

 

This is my opinion only of course, and I'm allowed opinions:

 

Your ideas, all of them, so far, are stupid, and they need to be called out, as stupid.

 

You do not offer a single interesting mechanics change. You just point out that in your opinion, the game is broken. A game may I add, where the whole point is to jump in, and in short 5-10 minute missions, just kill stuff for a laugh and get some loot.

 

We are not playing chess on the world server for million dollar prizes. No one cares who was in their game 5 minutes earlier, and the only way people are going to actually notice that a gun is OP is if that gun shoots once and the entire level disappears, which is NOT what is happening.

 

If you are killing only marginally faster then the next guy - and that's really the difference between a 4 Forma Boltor P and 4 Forma Soma - and no threads contain "OMG nerf Soma, it's so OP", as the BP might do maybe 50% more DPS, people play, shoot stuff, the game ends, all feels fine and people move on.

 

All the people, it seems, except YOU, trying to point out a problem that only exists in your head, rather then actually go out and play the damn game.

[DSpite]

@Sasquatch180

Problem with that is that it leads to a very boring and samey feel throughout the entire game where you don't feel like you've gotten any stronger at all.

I've played games with very flat scaling and its boring and doesn't feel like I've progressed or gotten stronger when the following occurs:

Takes me 6-7 shots to kill a low level enemy as I just start the game with the basic equipment.  When I get to the end game and farm up the best weapon it still takes me 6-7 shots to kill the grunt enemies I'm fighting.  I go back to the starting area and now it takes only 4 or 5 shots to kill them.

It really feels like you became stronger and better through putting time into the game! /s

It becomes: "Why try getting the strongest weapons?  Everything will still feel exactly the same as it does now..." and removes a lot of the satisfaction of leveling the weapons and mods and then finding the best build for it.

What's the point of progressing and getting better stuff when you will barely be doing more than a completely fresh character?

 

The others are not looking at it with a "fun factor", they seem to try and justify that since their idea of "fun" is thsi bunch of numbers over here, it must mean that everyone else should also find fun in them, and my god how stupid must they be if they don't.

 

There is nothing wrong with the game AS IS.

 

Players can find their own balance as they go. They can advance only so far with Forma and guns, and stick to middle areas. They can play really casually and just mess with Mercury and Venus, and very slowly build up, or try and run harder nodes with what would be termed "inferior" gear for a challenge, or they can actually try to go crazy maxed and run very high time Suvivals/Defense just for the hell of it.

 

Problem is some here are saying "well, If I take my OP8 level Borderlands characters into Playthrough 2 they obliterate everything". Really? you don't say? Never would have guessed. And when you point out they shouldn't actually be doing it, they say "well, why would I gimp myself", and the answer is "you're not gimping yourself you moron, you specifically built an OP8 character and now it's made for OP8 challenge ONLY. Congrats."

[StinkyPygmy]

Yes, lets remove Serration and Hornet Strike totally from the game. Every gun drops to a lower DPS level. Everyone plays as per usual, planet nodes just take longer and maybe 2 hours Survivals and Defense are no longer possible, and instead people run them for 1 hour only.

 

Brilliant. You have just shifted the entire game from one level to another and nothing changes. It would be identical to DE just upping HP on every mob in the game, just done from one angle instead of another.

 

 

 

This is my opinion only of course, and I'm allowed opinions:

 

Your ideas, all of them, so far, are stupid, and they need to be called out, as stupid.

 

You do not offer a single interesting mechanics change. You just point out that in your opinion, the game is broken. A game may I add, where the whole point is to jump in, and in short 5-10 minute missions, just kill stuff for a laugh and get some loot.

 

We are not playing chess on the world server for million dollar prizes. No one cares who was in their game 5 minutes earlier, and the only way people are going to actually notice that a gun is OP is if that gun shoots once and the entire level disappears, which is NOT what is happening.

 

If you are killing only marginally faster then the next guy - and that's really the difference between a 4 Forma Boltor P and 4 Forma Soma - and no threads contain "OMG nerf Soma, it's so OP", as the BP might do maybe 50% more DPS, people play, shoot stuff, the game ends, all feels fine and people move on.

 

All the people, it seems, except YOU, trying to point out a problem that only exists in your head, rather then actually go out and play the damn game.

I must be in the twilight zone or something...

I mean first I actually agree with Flower for once and then you (who I normally see eye to eye with) are the one getting worked up and ignoring some points? Somethings not right.

Those points being the alternate changes that would come with it. Sure there hasn't been an in depth discussion of suggested changes but its been done before and is A LOT of ground to cover, there has still be some mention of small things to start with though, and reasons as to why we feel the way we do.

 

In any case, WF might be get in kill stuff for 10 mins then repeat, with no real commitment or much beyond that for you. But its not like that for everyone. There seems to be a fairly even split.

In anycase, consider running with your own point of reasoning and realise that just because you feel things are fine a they are not everyone does. Its no different to " just because you feel something is broken or needs to change that everyone else feels that way".

 

Once again, no one is suggesting DE remove the mods in question and leave it at that.

Either way, its just an idea. No need for everyone to lose their heads over it.

You know how many threads I see that are suggesting things I think are outrageously stupid to the point I can't believe what I'm reading?

A lot. About as much as every other regular forum goer.

Point being, everyones gotta chill and its a weird day to see you of all people getting antsy and missing the entirety of the point.

Edited October 27, 2014 by StinkyPygmy

[Innocent_Flower]

Firstly I grow tired of having to filter out the majority of your posts because it's not on topic.  

Yes, lets remove Serration and Hornet Strike totally from the game. Every gun drops to a lower DPS level. Everyone plays as per usual, planet nodes just take longer and maybe 2 hours Survivals and Defense are no longer possible, and instead people run them for 1 hour only.

 

Brilliant. You have just shifted the entire game from one level to another and nothing changes. It would be identical to DE just upping HP on every mob in the game, just done from one angle instead of another.

 

You do not offer a single interesting mechanics change. You just point out that in your opinion, the game is broken. A game may I add, where the whole point is to jump in, and in short 5-10 minute missions, just kill stuff for a laugh and get some loot.

Secondly you're going with the most extreme example of "delete them" and ignoring the others. Even so your arguments are still pretty illogical. Responses to your argument. 

 

- Actually, without instant kills an infinite shields, playstyle would change  somewhat. 

- Wouldn't some planet nodes be shorter? 

- Most players can't even manage one hour, let alone two, in the current gameplay. That's because of the awful scaling. Take tower 4 survival for example. You've got 35 minutes of the game being too easy. Five minutes of the game being just right, then after 40 it's too hard and everyone flees. In those 45 minutes only five are fun. 

 

- Not really,The game does change quite a bit. In all but one possible solution the player needs to spend less time faffing about with builds, and in that one that doesn't stop that the builds become deeper/more interesting. 

Edited October 27, 2014 by Innocent_Flower

[Kipp-vas-Xerinae]

Personally i always wanted something like passive serration/hornet strike, basically instead installing those mods, weapon would be gaining damage by level-up, that way you can easier level up weapons (even solo), and also newbies aren't restricted to farming like mad or trading for those mods... (I will start on my PS4 as a newbie and i'm curious how i end up after my long break).

[SergeiTheBeast]

No, no and no.

 

Have a nice day!

[StinkyPygmy]

No, no and no.

 

Have a nice day!

Compelling.

[Liminal]

There is nothing wrong with the game AS IS.

I don't think anyone else on Earth agrees with that. Not even the devs.

[Innocent_Flower]

Personally i always wanted something like passive serration/hornet strike, basically instead installing those mods, weapon would be gaining damage by level-up, that way you can easier level up weapons (even solo), and also newbies aren't restricted to farming like mad or trading for those mods... (I will start on my PS4 as a newbie and i'm curious how i end up after my long break).

That always seemed like a a way to bugger up conclave ratings. (though I don't pvp) Whilst also still having the problem of not being able to use weapons at high/low levels (Having less control over it). Mods are the way to do it; Mods just need to be better. 

[Tsukinoki]

@The_Doc
And what 'content' is really going to be available in a flat progression?
Maybe killing the same enemies in the same number on shots on a differently colored ship?
Because I don't find that fun or rewarding.
I enjoy starting of weak and having trouble with enemies and then getting stronger to the point that I can wipe the floor with them.  I find that rewarding and fun and engaging.
I get bored when I know that no matter what happens everything in the entire game will feel the same as it did during the first hour of play.

@Kipp-vas-Xerinae
That would make leveling up quite a pain.
As the current system is I can level up a weapon to 4 or 7 (depending on polarity slots) and then immediately hop into the higher level content with the gun and actually have fun leveling it.
With the damage tied to the level ups I would instead have to stick around low to mid planets till the gun hits level 20 and then get to the actual fun stuff for only the last third of the levels.
How is that in any way better for gameplay or fun?

@Innocent_Flower
There is hardly any invincibility in this game when you play at content meant for your gear level.
The only time there is invincibility  is when you bring top modded weapons meant for T3/T4 long term survival to lower level planets.
At which point the fault of being invincible is entirely on the player for bringing the best gear to the starter areas.
That would be like a level 80 WoW player complaining that the starting zones are too easy.

And just moving around the values or completely removing the direct damage mods wouldn't deepen the builds that much.
Who would use a silencer mod compared to any other mod?
Who would use a recoil reduction compared to any other mod?
Who would use an accuracy mod at all?
People would still use pretty much the exact same mods they do now.  They would just replace the direct damage mods with the next best damage bonus, which would probably be another elemental mod.
What you're suggesting wouldn't do anything to increase build diversity.

In order to get better build diversity other things need to change first.
And when you change the other things first then we can talk about changing the damage mod.

And here are some of the things that need to change before damage mods are touched:
-There needs to be more playstyle options.
As in stealth needs to actually be a thing.  Right now only one playstyle is accounted for.  If you change that and make other play styles viable first then we can sit down and begin thinking about the damage players and enemies are doing. 

-Relating to the first there needs to be mods that support more play styles.
Such as mods that reward accuracy, or stealth, or fast movement to get behind enemies, etc.
As an example (please dont take too seriously, this is just a raw idea): A mod that adds a stack for every weakpoint shot you make and that decays quickly over time and disables the enemy in some way, the more stacks the longer/better the disablement.  That would reward fast accurate headshots on enemies.  Some players would love doing that while others who use more inaccurate guns would use a completely different mod.  Maybe one that increases accuracy for every hit you land for a short time, which under continuous fire could make the gorgon or supra perfectly accurate. (Of course there would be players that would stack the two mods, but hardly everyone would and that would be the start of build diversity)
The point is that once they start making mods that actually encourages and rewards playing in different ways *then* you'll get your build diversity.  Till then just removing or changing the damage mods wont  do much, if anything at all.

-Improve and design new enemeis who cant (or are much harder to) be beaten through straight up damage, or otherwise reward players who dont.
This is arguably the biggest one that needs to be done before damage can really be touched.
This would be things like improving the shield lancers so you actually have to get around behind them, or get allies to distract them, in order to be able to take them out easily.  Otherwise they are manageable but a pain in the a.
Add in enemies that you either take out slowly by a frontal assault but go down quickly to critical point damage.
Add an enemy that if you damage a certain way starts wildly attacking everything for a short time before dieing.

If DE starts addressing some of these things (and others) first, then they'll be able to touch on the damage mods.
Otherwise touching on the damage mods will do little to nothing.

Edited October 27, 2014 by Tsukinoki

[Kipp-vas-Xerinae]

That always seemed like a a way to bugger up conclave ratings. (though I don't pvp) Whilst also still having the problem of not being able to use weapons at high/low levels (Having less control over it). Mods are the way to do it; Mods just need to be better. 

 

I don't know, for me the biggest problem is that the new players are basically forced to farm a lot for must have mods i would be more or less ok with Serration/Hornet Strike, but only if DE instead giving players Damaged Mods (in my opinion band-aid fix) they would give them normal mods or reliable source to farm (not the painful one)... But like i said i'm more on the side that weapon damage should scale by level.

But yes i agree on part that we need a balance, some of the mods are powerful and some of them are not quite good.

[Kipp-vas-Xerinae]

@Kipp-vas-Xerinae

That would make leveling up quite a pain.

As the current system is I can level up a weapon to 4 or 7 (depending on polarity slots) and then immediately hop into the higher level content with the gun and actually have fun leveling it.

With the damage tied to the level ups I would instead have to stick around low to mid planets till the gun hits level 20 and then get to the actual fun stuff for only the last third of the levels.

How is that in any way better for gameplay or fun?

 

 

At level 4 or 7 you normally add maxed serration?

But if we are talking about passive damage, you could instead Serration/Hornet Strike put Heavy Caliber/Elemental mod etc.

I assume, as a high level player you still end up with high level-up ratio (dark sectors etc.), at the same time newbies aren't forced to farm one single planet/node to be more powerful and to be able to progress through the star chart.

So i still think that change would be more beneficial than otherwise.

[Tsukinoki]

@Kipp-vas-Xerinae
That would be changing the speed from being able to fit 2 to 3, maybe 4, forma in 2 hours to fitting 2 forma in maybe 2 to 3 hours with the vast majority of the forma leveling being stuck on the low level planets where I can't even get affinity at a decent rate.

I'm actually a player who likes *using* the guns at decent levels.  Not sticking it on my back and never using it because its worthless at the content that is actually rewarding for me to play (nightmare, invastions, T3/T4 etc.)

With the passive damage from levels that would suck most of the fun out of getting a new gun and being able to try it out at decent gameplay levels.

And there are lots of other ways to avoid the situation that your stating, which is a real issue.
And it could be as simple as DE making a quest to turn your damaged mods into the fixed version.
That way new players dont have to grind away at apollodorus and yet older players are still able to quickly get a gun up to stuff and play in content that actually rewards them for playing it.

[xethier]

-snip-

And it could be as simple as DE making a quest to turn your damaged mods into the fixed version.

That way new players dont have to grind away at apollodorus and yet older players are still able to quickly get a gun up to stuff and play in content that actually rewards them for playing it.

 

this is one of the better ideas i've heard about solving the problem within the current confines of the system.

and lares is a far better choice for grinding for serration / hornet strike.

between 4-8 runs to wave 10 will usually net you either serration or a hornet strike.

[Kipp-vas-Xerinae]

@Kipp-vas-Xerinae

That would be changing the speed from being able to fit 2 to 3, maybe 4, forma in 2 hours to fitting 2 forma in maybe 2 to 3 hours with the vast majority of the forma leveling being stuck on the low level planets where I can't even get affinity at a decent rate.

I'm actually a player who likes *using* the guns at decent levels.  Not sticking it on my back and never using it because its worthless at the content that is actually rewarding for me to play (nightmare, invastions, T3/T4 etc.)

With the passive damage from levels that would suck most of the fun out of getting a new gun and being able to try it out at decent gameplay levels.

And there are lots of other ways to avoid the situation that your stating, which is a real issue.

And it could be as simple as DE making a quest to turn your damaged mods into the fixed version.

That way new players dont have to grind away at apollodorus and yet older players are still able to quickly get a gun up to stuff and play in content that actually rewards them for playing it.

I see your point. Personally i'm all about balance, if majority of people are ok with Serration/Hornet Strike then so be it, but like i said we need a lot of balance fixes, because the gap between newbies and higher rank players is too big in my opinion (i'm talking about star chart), but this is another topic to discuss.

So like i said, if DE comes up with solution that a lot of players are ok with and also this will be beneficial for both newbies and veterans i will be more than happy, because as for now "essential" mods are a little to essential in my opinion, but then again that is another topic, so i should go ^^

[Liminal]

@The_Doc

And what 'content' is really going to be available in a flat progression?

Maybe killing the same enemies in the same number on shots on a differently colored ship?

Because I don't find that fun or rewarding.

I enjoy starting of weak and having trouble with enemies and then getting stronger to the point that I can wipe the floor with them.  I find that rewarding and fun and engaging.

I get bored when I know that no matter what happens everything in the entire game will feel the same as it did during the first hour of play.

(...)

If DE starts addressing some of these things (and others) first, then they'll be able to touch on the damage mods.

Otherwise touching on the damage mods will do little to nothing.

More weapons, more frames. It's not the same kind of game, but I don't play Killing Floor or L4D for years just so I become powerful enough to be able to kill Tanks and Fleshpounds in one shot. I play them because they are fun, and I'd play them a lot more if I got more guns and classes every month.

Not everyone wants to obliterate the game's difficulty, which is what happens in Warframe unless you start running endless missions.

For example: a boss should be a boss, not a dude that dies in under one clip. If I'm powerful enough I'd like to be able to fare better, sure, but not wipe the floor with it. It's the difference between the first time you meet a boss in a single player game and the second time you do, in a "New Game +" mode: it will be easier, but it will still hurt you and you can still die, there is still challenge there.

 

I know it's a thin line, but I believe developers should try to find the middle ground between "You are now lv100, you OHK everything." (Warframe) and "You are now lv100 but enemies are now lv900: run." (Borderlands 2).

 

(Also, it's not that I'd like damage mods simply gone, my wish would be a rebalance of the whole game.)

Edited October 27, 2014 by The_Doc

[Liminal]

That would be like a level 80 WoW player complaining that the starting zones are too easy.

I missed this one!

The thing is you need to go back to low level missions very often. Maybe to rank up a lv0 gun. Maybe for an alert. Maybe to farm resources. It's one of the many contradictions of Warframe.