Arcwing- It's A Poorly Added Flashey-Thing That Gives Nothing To The Base Game.

[Abenoki]

I dont see too much of a problem with things as they are now, granted I main rhino so its in my favor but why not give the frames everyone gives flak all the time a niches of their own? I cant count how many times Ive heard people say the tank frames are "useless endgame" (which they arent but thats besides the point). Valkyr is "useless" because "her abilities only help her, shes a noob frame" and essentially the same for Rhino. Frost is useless because "loki + x +y + z frame is a better idea than frost", or Saryn "is just miasma spam". Now these frames have a niche part of the game that they positively excel at and all I hear is "that BS, unbalanced, etc." 

 

This isnt to say that Archwing doesnt need some work and balance, but to say there is no reason to use another frame I believe to be untrue. Loki for example is mostly unmatched in his archwing speed (i dont count vanguard rhino as not everyone has that helm), try taking him to a Intercept and mod your frames for archwing.

 

Redir

Vital

Steel Fiber

Vigor

Fast Deflect

Fortitude

Flow

 

This is also great for the mods that people would essentially just throw to the side saying they didnt need em, well now you do. 

 

more than likely what you will see happen is an adjustment in how the archwing mods affect your stats. Right now they pretty much do nothing, maybe a few shield and health but not much. 

Edited October 29, 2014 by Echoa

[Liminal]

This isnt to say that Archwing doesnt need some work, but to say there is no reason to use another frame I believe to be untrue. Loki for example is mostly unmatched in his archwing speed, try taking him to a Intercept and mod your frames for archwing.

Vanguard Rhino moves just as fast as Loki. And Loki's speed means you can shave off 3 seconds getting to a point that's 2km away. That won't save you from the enemies tailing you, as you can't run forever.

[Abenoki]

Vanguard Rhino moves just as fast as Loki. And Loki's speed means you can shave off 3 seconds getting to a point that's 2km away. That won't save you from the enemies tailing you, as you can't run forever.

 

already said i dont count vanguard as the majority of the population doesnt have that helm so using him as an argument is largely invalid because vanguard rhino is a minorty. Also its far more than 3 seconds, lokis speed shaves an avg of 10 seconds and more when combines with Hyperion Thursters. Hyperion alone when maxed on most frames will reduce a 3k m travel by 20seconds and lokis increase over everyone else by itself is roughly 10 seconds. None of my clan mates have had issues with the non tank frames or any of the people I've played with.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Echoa

[Innocent_Flower]

This has happened twice to me now. For some reason a mod is near the border. I get to the mod, I get told I will be forced to extract If I don't go back. I go back. I get extracted.Seven waves of interception down the drain. 

 

 

Is that rea/ly neccessary? Couldn't you just turn me around; And if it is neccessary could I at least keep the things I've won that game

 

 

Edit: game extracted me during a fight/extract  situation. I was right next to an interception zone. 

Edited October 29, 2014 by Innocent_Flower

[reltats]

Valks far better imo then rhino imo.

Maxed vitality and steel fiber means you have 1200 armor with 740 HP

Maxed argon plating means you have 1692 armor (yes really, thats what you get in game)

through the rest of the survivability mods on you have (Including the archwing ones) you get 506 shields with 1023 HP. at basically 1700 armor. with rejuvenation on and with good power use I basically never go down, even on Uranus.

 

 

As for the whole power deal, I think it would interesting to see, but I think we would see far less archwings and slower frame releases as they had all the added work to do with ALL the frames. The current approach to powers is far better imo

 

Edit: number fix

Edited October 29, 2014 by reltats

[Abenoki]

 

As for the whole power deal, I think it would interesting to see, but I think we would see far less archwings and slower frame releases as they had all the added work to do with ALL the frames. The current approach to powers is far better imo

 

I agree, keep the archwing powers as is, but they need to fix how archwing stat mods work. They need to use the modified base stat of frames or be buffed to the same level as the regular warframe mods, which while still giving an advantage to tanks also gives a boost to the non tank frames. Right now you get less than 100 health and shields from these mods and armor also is a joke, it shouldnt be like that it should be a more substantial increase than that.

 

If they worked like Redir and vital or worked off them you could have a loki with 1k+ health/shields and add a decent amount of armor to him.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Echoa

[Liminal]

already said i dont count vanguard as the majority of the population doesnt have that helm so using him as an argument is largely invalid because vanguard rhino is a minorty. Also its far more than 3 seconds, lokies speed shaves an avg of 10-15 seconds and more when combines with Hyperion Thursters. Hyperion alone when maxed on most frames will reduce a 3k m travel by 20seconds and lokis increase over everyone else by itself is roughly 10 seconds.

No it's not. Check reddit, the guy ran tests. Loki (speed 1.25) gained 3 seconds on speed 1.00 frames (Rhino Prime for example) over 2000m.

Hyperion doesn't count as most people doesn't have it and also: any other frame can equip it too and the difference will remain almost the same (1.27 vs 1.58, a 0.04 gain).

[reltats]

I agree, keep the archwing powers as is, but they need to fix how archwing stat mods work. They need to use the modified base stat of frames or be buffed to the same level as the regular warframe mods, which while still giving an advantage to tanks also gives a boost to the non tank frames. Right now you get less than 100 health and shields from these mods and armor also is a joke, it shouldnt be like that it should be a more substantial increase than that.

 

True that. non-tanks have almost no use in archwing currently other then the ones trying to be speedy

[crimsonflab]

This mechanic should be like those in Ace combat games. You get to the border >> You are teleported to somewhere for refilling >> You return to the battlefield after refueling. 

Or Just turns us around. C'mon Space mom. I hate being manhandled. :'((

[Abenoki]

No it's not. Check reddit, the guy ran tests. Loki (speed 1.25) gained 3 seconds on speed 1.00 frames (Rhino Prime for example) over 2000m.

Hyperion doesn't count as most people doesn't have it and also: any other frame can equip it too and the difference will remain almost the same (1.27 vs 1.58, a 0.04 gain).

 

rhino prime its around 5-6sec, rhino its 6-7sec difference with vanguard added, and even then loki is still faster by roughly 2-3m/s as per his testing which we will round to a solid 1sec increase which for loki puts him at and avg 7sec lead over everyone else not including hyperion. Thats pretty close to 10 to me. Also, if you havent used hyperion the speed difference is more than you think. Loki with a +15% hyperion will lap literally everyone but a vanguard rhino with the same setup. I have started from across the map at the most distant radio tower in intercept and the farthest one away got taken, I was able to beat a team mate there with them being 1/2 way, take the point, and start heading back before they reached it. Now thats with hyperion mind you but even without it loki will get there first every time, and once you get the hang of aiming melee and get your mods you will decimate enemies in no time.

 

Like i said, I do think the stat mods need to be fixed as they provide no benefit  what so ever. This I think will really help the non tank frames if youre having trouble in archwing. The stat increases need to be far more substantial than they are now, 34 shields on rhino isnt even worth the mod points.

 

from the thread

 

Now What if Rhino Prime were to wear the Vanguard helm? It boosts speed by 25%, his base speed is 1.0. So with it he's at 1.25, that's loki fast.

Vangaurd helm: 21.5s--->2000/21.5= 93m/s

No Alt Helm: 26s ---> 2000/26 = 76m/s

For comparision

Loki: 95m/s

Valkyr : 81.6m/s

Zephyr: 86.9m/s

 

Here are my times.

Rhino Prime(1.0)

With Arcane Vangaurd(1.25): 21.4s, 21.5s, 21.5s

With normal helmet(1.0): 26s, 26.4s, 26.5s

Rhino(0.9)

With Arcane Vangaurd(1.125): 23.7s, 23.5s, 23.5s

With normal helmet(0.9): 29.1s, 28s, 28.5s

Edited October 29, 2014 by Echoa

[Liminal]

rhino prime its around 5-6sec, rhino its 6-7sec difference with vanguard added, and even then loki is still faster by roughly 2-3m/s as per his testing which we will round to a solid 1sec increase which for loki puts him at and avg 7sec lead over everyone else not including hyperion. Thats pretty close to 10 to me. Also, if you havent used hyperion the speed difference is more than you think. Loki with a +15% hyperion will lap literally everyone but a vanguard rhino with the same setup. I have started from across the map at the most distant radio tower in intercept and the farthest one away got taken, I was able to beat a team mate there with them being 1/2 way, take the point, and start heading back before they reached it. Now thats with hyperion mind you but even without it loki will get there first every time, and once you get the hang of aiming melee and get your mods you will decimate enemies in no time.

 

from the thread (...)

Warframe base sprint speeds affect your Archwing speeds. Not very major. Loki will only be 3 seconds faster to travel a distance of 2000m. Could be handy to revive that team mate that died 3000m away.

^That's from the thread as well.

 

Evidence from any of us is circumstantial and probably biased (unless there's a video or something).

 

I don't see how getting the hang of melee is related to being faster and less durable.

[Abenoki]

Warframe base sprint speeds affect your Archwing speeds. Not very major. Loki will only be 3 seconds faster to travel a distance of 2000m. Could be handy to revive that team mate that died 3000m away.

^That's from the thread as well.

 

Evidence from any of us is circumstantial and probably biased (unless there's a video or something).

 

I don't see how getting the hang of melee is related to being faster and less durable.

 

never said it affected your durability

 

the argument here is there is no point in using anything other than rhino or frost and i said thats wrong. Loki on merit of his speed alone is viable as speed also seems affect how quickly you launch at melee targets, getting the hang of melee targeting increases your survival by being able to bounce between targets far more effectively, dodging incoming fire.  Even still though none of them can take fire for long on the higher level archwing missions. You WILL get taken down just as quickly on a rhino as on a loki if you dont keep moving. If your only way of survival is to straight tank fire then Tanks will be the best method but that even still doesnt appear to be a very good idea in archwing missions, which are all about mobility, you will not be more likely to tank grineer fire on uranus on a rhino or a frost over another frame, thats not how you survive in an archwing mission.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Echoa

[BloodSage09]

Hey Flower guess what...

 

I can be Ash and also survive in the Archwing. So I don't gotta resort to using Rhinoob to get the job done.

 

because everyone who uses rhino is a noob?

[SandwitchPrime]

stop having the same shields and health as your warframes is the better sloution :D

[Splatter_Puppet]

stop having the same shields and health as your warframes is the better sloution :D

^^This

 

I don't see why they don't just give Archwings their own pool of Health/Armor/Shields, and make Warframe choice cosmetic.

 

I can already see problems if they start combining Archwing into the main game if they use the current method. On foot I may want to use Ember or Loki, but I have to use Frost, Saryn, or Rhino because there are Archwing components in the mission that can't be completed effectively otherwise.

[Padreic]

Agreed. This is an awful mechanic, badly implemented. I know that a hard invisible wall breaks immersion, but so does being forcibly removed from a game. At least with the wall, my time isn't completely wasted. Either teleport/shift me back in bounds, or make a hard wall around the playable arena. Between the enemy/mod markers "falling" outside the map and the near impossibility of navigating a 3d world with a 2d HUD map system, it is very likely that players will wind up outside the map and unable to get back into it in time to stop the extraction.

[cooler_sk]

Poor Trinity gets no love.

With her tinfoil armour and mediocre speed and health/shields, she just slightly worse than Nyx, who got just a tiny bit more speed.

They both have barely anything to do better in Archwing, than other frames, at current state of things.

[CarrotSalad]

Done 3 archwing missions that got aborted when i finished the mission. Not because i wanted to abort but because i traveled outside a boundary while flying towards the extraction marker. Hopefully they can change/find a solution to it. I got a few ideas off the top of my head like taking that blue transparent shield in the archwing trench missions.

Best would be a simple wireframe around the mission zone.

Or the box you see in gundam vs Ex around the map

A pink shadow that appears against a invisible wall when u reach a map edge

The auto pathway correct in star wars rogue squadron

When u cross over 1 side you get teleported to the other edge of the map. (creep over left border get warped to right border)

A little ghost light on a track that repeatedly shows the route to extraction.

[Liminal]

the argument here is there is no point in using anything other than rhino or frost and i said thats wrong. Loki on merit of his speed alone is viable as speed also seems affect how quickly you launch at melee targets, getting the hang of melee targeting increases your survival by being able to bounce between targets far more effectively, dodging incoming fire.  Even still though none of them can take fire for long on the higher level archwing missions. You WILL get taken down just as quickly on a rhino as on a loki if you dont keep moving. If your only way of survival is to straight tank fire then Tanks will be the best method but that even still doesnt appear to be a very good idea in archwing missions, which are all about mobility, you will not be more likely to tank grineer fire on uranus on a rhino or a frost over another frame, thats not how you survive in an archwing mission.

Considering the other 8 guys are still shooting at you while you are in the middle of those fancy melee animations, higher defenses do help you melee better. And Rhino can take one volley of lv28 Hellion fire and (barely) survive, Loki dies in one from enemies 10 levels lower.

 

Cover is almost nonexistant in Grineer space, temporal dregs (with perfect aim) deny whatever speed advantage you had, and stamina will eventually run out, making you face hordes of enemies (also, if you are running that much you are not killing/capturing enough).

Speed is irrelevant in Corpus space because cover is the best protection, and more shields/hp let you shoot longer before having to take cover.

 

Is extra speed good? Yes. But is it good enough to make Loki as good as tank frames? No.

Of course there is a point in choosing speed over durability: going faster. But the point is going faster by itself isn't enough of an advantage. At least not in the current game modes.

 

I love Loki, he's my homie, and that's why I want to frames to have equal chances.

[Deidaku]

This is what i've been begging

 

the fact that sprint mods , sprint stats and power effciciency ( and other mods don't transfer) mkes the optimal choice for archwing Rhino or valkyr  . this is bascially saying screw you to all lighter frames like loki I currently have 0 reason to pick my excal over rhino for AW....which is terrible

. You can't even build for speed D:

[Chad_Kroeger]

Didn't read whole thread, but I'll be short:

 

- I don't like the idea of warframes having their own abilities in space

- What I like is the idea of a specific frame used for a specific type of normal (non archwing) mission

having to escape with an archwing afterwards

- So, no one would pick tanky frames cuz of archwing game end, they would have to pick eg. frost for defense

or whatever fits their playstyle, and at the end use archwings to escape - combined with, say, "exterminate" archwing mission...

[Last_0rder]

Interesting. It would be real nice if all frames could use some of their abilities (probably all). Because I know you can't really rely on your archwing and weapons in high level archwing missions. For example. Interception. Many high level enemies begin to spawn. Yes you are well geared you got all the mods of the archwing and weapons but once you cant take all the damage of the enemies dealt to you and they began to swarm at you. You are in big trouble.

[DeMeritus]

Yeah, he Uranus mission is really poorly balanced.  Most commonly, you tend to just get a cluster of several dozen enemies suddenly spawn spamming missiles, many of which ignore countermeasures you deploy.

 

Not to mention that most of the time enemies are capping points, they can do so from 250 to 600 meters away, and can continue to do so ever after being killed.

 

Also good luck dodging missile spam from enemies you killed, with said missiles being projected out of empty space where you killed it.

[Abenoki]

Considering the other 8 guys are still shooting at you while you are in the middle of those fancy melee animations, higher defenses do help you melee better. And Rhino can take one volley of lv28 Hellion fire and (barely) survive, Loki dies in one from enemies 10 levels lower.

 

Cover is almost nonexistant in Grineer space, temporal dregs (with perfect aim) deny whatever speed advantage you had, and stamina will eventually run out, making you face hordes of enemies (also, if you are running that much you are not killing/capturing enough).

Speed is irrelevant in Corpus space because cover is the best protection, and more shields/hp let you shoot longer before having to take cover.

 

Is extra speed good? Yes. But is it good enough to make Loki as good as tank frames? No.

Of course there is a point in choosing speed over durability: going faster. But the point is going faster by itself isn't enough of an advantage. At least not in the current game modes.

 

I love Loki, he's my homie, and that's why I want to frames to have equal chances.

 

I can tell you for a fact his extra speed gives him an advantage when it comes to out running enemies. Ive been using loki, not any of the tank frames in Uranus Intercept. Loki has 2 major advantages in that situation, a substantially larger energy pool and higher speed. On uranus you kite the enemy around using the environment as cover which is easier to do using a frame like loki which has higher speed and also his higher energy pool allows him to CC better using #2 and #4 on Odanata (#1 has limited use because its only in front of you). The enemies use a tractor beam that slows you down and once you break it the extra acceleration afforded by loki and his increased speed is a life saver. If you're trying to tank hits from a lvl 28 helion youre doing it wrong, and no loki wont get one shot from a lvl 17 helion thats gross exaggeration that i know for a fact is wrong. I dont have to actively start actively worrying about enemy fire on loki till Uranus or equivalent play. The whole point of archwing isnt to face tank and rofl stomp your enemy, its to actually move and dodge fire using your abilities to draw it away or stun the enemy and take them out. 

 

As I said, I do think the mods need a change that will allow for increased health/shield, etc. for non tank frames, but they are far from being useless or not viable in Archwing. Right now My loki can take a hit pretty well when its not face tanking god mode helions on Uranus with these stats

 

759 shield/763 health

166 armor

450 power

Edited October 29, 2014 by Echoa

[Jokubas]

I thought this was odd as well. Obviously Archwing will be added to over time, but it seems like a pretty glaring gap even for a basic release. Then again, I think the biggest problem is more a balance/bug issue than strictly level.

 

I just finally found someone to do the Uranus Interception with, and I was immediately one-shotted. At first I assumed this was because of how high level it was, but after I revived and ran into some more enemies, I realized their bullets were doing damage that was actually fair. I have to assume it was missiles that were killing me, which leads me to believe they're either bugged or simply overpowered. There's simply no good defense against missiles right now. If I only can assume that's what was killing me, then my number 2 isn't exactly helpful, because I have no idea when to use it. And with the sheer number of enemies, there's no way you're going to be able to avoid them all anyway. At the very least, a missile lock-on indicator needs to be added, but their damage almost certainly needs to be looked at.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Jokubas