Survival Needs A Major Overhaul.

[Phatose]

Survival is called Survival for a reason. You're meant to survive. It's about surviving, not racing a clock. I know why the atmosphere gauge is there, I know it's purpose. It stops players from standing on a box and going AFK for 30 minutes, or camping out in one corner and just popping mobs as they come down the hall. The declining atmosphere drives the player to move, to actively fight and not just camp, to put them into the fight as opposed to just cheaply avoiding it while riding home on an easy trunk full of rare mods or resources. But what is the purpose of putting a bullet in the head of the person who is a few seconds short of getting to the mark on time? It's not a matter of "getting good", it's a matter of fair play.

 

Whether it's 25 seconds or 2.5 seconds, there is NO reason that ANY player should have to suffer for not being able to catch a mark in time when TIME isn't the objective. The name of the game is how long can you SURVIVE, not how long can you run around and hit checkpoints like some time trial in a racing game.

 

Time is the objective.  You get your rewards based on time.  I don't know how you could've possibly missed that.

 

You get there a few seconds short, and you've screwed up.  It's a failure.  It just is - equivalent to letting the defense objective get blown up, or letting the hostage get killed, or letting the sabotage console get blown up.  You've got a countdown that says you must get more oxygen before this runs out, or you lose, and you let it run out.  What's unfair about that, exactly?  

 

It's setup the way it is because it has been exploited in the past, Loki exploits, Trinity exploits back when blessing was simple invulnerability.  There are entirely too many ways to get around draining health and shields that if you were allowed to do that, it would be heavily exploited forever.  So DE used the simple obvious solution - run out and you fail. 

[(PSN)Lord_Silvador]

If you could just run to the pod and activate it to get the timer going again and get more life support what stops a Loki with a perma-invis build from sitting in a hole in the wall and only running out to activate the large pods and nothing else with absolutely no penalty at all.  Hek he could even alt-tab, wait for the pods to build up then go back in and activate them all, hide again and repeat that over and over again with no effort spent.

Can't say I've seen a great number of "holes in the wall" in which to hide. Then again, I'm not one to look for such things. In any case, such a scenario sounds to me more like a Loki related issue, not a Survival mission issue. If Loki can be used to exploit in such a manner, I'd say look at the way in which Loki is designed, rather than break an entire mission for everyone.

 

And if hitting zero atmosphere is meant to indicate a mission failure, why am I not hit with a mission failure screen immediately upon running out of air? If the mission is over, then the mission is over. Why am I still able to run around, watch my health drain away and then get *@##$ slapped to death by some low class mob?

[Tsukinoki]

@(PS4)Lord_Silvador
They allow you to get to the exit so that you can claim any rewards that you have managed to get, such as dropped mods and the 5 minute rewards that are in normal survivals.

Running out of air is a "You failed", now you just have to try to get out of the mission with what you have so far managed to gain.
But since you failed that prevents you from getting any further rewards.  That's the penalty for running out of air: no more further rewards and you'll be easy to kill as you desperately try escaping with what you have.

You ran into a different issue: that they didn't mark the exit point once you ran out of life support.
Sure you wouldn't have gotten the aura as you didn't last the full 10 minutes, but they should have at least pointed you to the exit.

And Limbo can do it as well.  And a max duration build trinity could also do it with repeated blessings to keep 99% damage reduction and keep everyones shields and health at max.
So no, its not just a Loki issue.

Edited November 10, 2014 by Tsukinoki

[(PSN)Lord_Silvador]

Time is the objective.  You get your rewards based on time.  I don't know how you could've possibly missed that.

 

You get there a few seconds short, and you've screwed up.  It's a failure.  It just is - equivalent to letting the defense objective get blown up, or letting the hostage get killed, or letting the sabotage console get blown up.  You've got a countdown that says you must get more oxygen before this runs out, or you lose, and you let it run out.  What's unfair about that, exactly?  

 

It's setup the way it is because it has been exploited in the past, Loki exploits, Trinity exploits back when blessing was simple invulnerability.  There are entirely too many ways to get around draining health and shields that if you were allowed to do that, it would be heavily exploited forever.  So DE used the simple obvious solution - run out and you fail. 

Then address the exploits, not the exploitable. If that's the case then maybe DE are just getting lazy and decided to break their game rather than put in effort to preventing such easy exploitations.

 

I said it before and I'll say it again, Survival is not a "race the clock" objective. If it was, then there'd be no mobs to fight and you'd spend your time running around the map picking stuff up or hacking consoles. There are any number of possible ways in which even the best player can be pulled back from getting to their target in time just to have victory ripped out of their hands through cheap means as a result of this mechanic. Ancients knocking you on your &#!. Capsule placement. Fallen comrades. Being taken out yourself. If you're on a team and you're the closest to the capsule, but also have the lowest health, how is it fair to the rest of the team if you get killed trying to activate the next capsule and they can't get to it in time?

 

This mechanic in and of itself is flawed and broken. And in so in makes the entire mission flawed and broken. DE seriously needs to reevaluate their position on this mission's design and overhaul the whole damned thing. If it can be exploited so easily, redesign it so it can't be exploited, but do so without breaking it for everyone else who isn't an F1 racing car!

[Phatose]

Take a look at what you're listing as stopping you, and explain how those aren't all failures in and of themselves.

[Blaidd.Drwg]

 

You ran into a different issue: that they didn't mark the exit point once you ran out of life support.
Sure you wouldn't have gotten the aura as you didn't last the full 10 minutes, but they should have at least pointed you to the exit.

 

For alerts/special survivals 10 minutes is the requirement; any less and the mission is failed.

Since he failed he couldn't extract, which is why there was no marker for the exit.

I see no issue with this scenario other than it sounds like OP is upset than playing Rhino didn't make him win.

Playing solo Rhino in a 10 minute survival is a poor choice and will more likely lead to failure than using a faster frame or Nekros; this is just as true as taking not taking a Frost/Limbo or some form of pod protection for Defense.

 

For reference, this is a beta and one of the recent patches was to improve the survival capsules (forget what exactly), but if you don't like survival then don't play it.

Alert or not, there are other options and opportunities to get most items (to include the shotgun scavenger mod) so it's kind of pointless to complain about losing one mission on solo when there wasn't a legitimate glitch.

 

Better than last week when getting downed auto failed every solo mission.

[(PSN)Lord_Silvador]

Take a look at what you're listing as stopping you, and explain how those aren't all failures in and of themselves.

Oh, I'm sorry, did I somehow step out of some perfect world that you live in where every obstacle you face merely falls before you in reverence, and you walk to victory on a gold paved road because you're just that awesome?

 

If you think for a second that I'm going to believe you somehow magically have total control over every single miniscule thing that happens on the battle field, then I'm afraid you're pulling the wool over the wrong person's heads.

 

I may not have twenty Warframes fully modded to choose from, with forty different weapons each with three different configurations on them, but I'm not a friggin' moron. Not EVERYTHING is controllable. There ARE times when no matter how good you THINK you are, you still get laid out like someone slammed into you with a Mac Truck. Just because you delude yourself into thinking you're the bee's knees and are infallible, doesn't mean I'm not smart enough to recognise a pile of sticking crap when I smell it.

 

Having a mission that is about surviving and then taking away that which is needed TO survive is poor designing. End of story. It's pointless, and no matter how many exploit excuses you throw at it, nothing will change the fact that it is a BS tactic and a troll mechanism.

[GrapplerBot]

Oh, I'm sorry, did I somehow step out of some perfect world that you live in where every obstacle you face merely falls before you in reverence, and you walk to victory on a gold paved road because you're just that awesome?

 

If you think for a second that I'm going to believe you somehow magically have total control over every single miniscule thing that happens on the battle field, then I'm afraid you're pulling the wool over the wrong person's heads.

 

I may not have twenty Warframes fully modded to choose from, with forty different weapons each with three different configurations on them, but I'm not a friggin' moron. Not EVERYTHING is controllable. There ARE times when no matter how good you THINK you are, you still get laid out like someone slammed into you with a Mac Truck. Just because you delude yourself into thinking you're the bee's knees and are infallible, doesn't mean I'm not smart enough to recognise a pile of sticking crap when I smell it.

 

Having a mission that is about surviving and then taking away that which is needed TO survive is poor designing. End of story. It's pointless, and no matter how many exploit excuses you throw at it, nothing will change the fact that it is a BS tactic and a troll mechanism.

 

The problem is that you assume "that which is needed to survive" is being taken away without you being able to do anything about it.

 

The reality is that you're allowing it to be taken away. If you were better you could have hit that LS faster and there would have been no issue. But you were slow and you failed because of it, and you want to blame it on something other than your failure. Sorry, that's not gonna fly. It's YOUR OWN BLOODY FAULT that the LS went away. You are CONSTANTLY shown and reminded that life support is draining. Life support is ALWAYS marked on the map so that you can get to it in plenty of time. If you hit it with very very low amounts left, it has a grace period so that you don't fail while you're in the middle of activation. Heck, the location of the life support is marked in advance to give you plenty of time to get to its location. Stop blaming DE for your own failure.

Edited November 10, 2014 by GrapplerBot

[Tsukinoki]

--snip--

There ARE times when no matter how good you THINK you are, you still get laid out like someone slammed into you with a Mac Truck.

--snip--

 

Having a mission that is about surviving and then taking away that which is needed TO survive is poor designing. End of story. It's pointless, and no matter how many exploit excuses you throw at it, nothing will change the fact that it is a BS tactic and a troll mechanism.

To the first part:

That's life.  There are always things beyond your control.  There are always things that can cause you to mess up and fail that you can't predict or control.

He's not saying that he can control everything.

What he was saying is that If you let your life support get down to single digits without restoring it then it is *your* fault for not paying attention to the life support.

If you let your health fall down to dangerous categories when you go to activate its *your* fault for not being careful and paying attention to your health/shields.

Both of those are still your fault completely.

To the second:

By letting your life support run out you've failed the mission.

What you're saying would be like someone complaining that the enemies destroyed the defense objective and they weren't able to get the rewards from it or continue the mission.

Fact is that you failed the stated objective of the mission: keep life support above zero.

You let the life support hit zero.  That means you failed the mission.

Its not BS or a troll mechanism.  It was you who weren't paying attention to the life support and keeping it up.  Therefore you failed the mission because you couldn't keep the life support above zero.

Why should they let you continue to get rewards after failing?

As I have stated they let you live to get to extraction to keep the rewards you had managed to gather, not to give you time to get more life support and get more rewards.

[Phatose]

Oh, I'm sorry, did I somehow step out of some perfect world that you live in where every obstacle you face merely falls before you in reverence, and you walk to victory on a gold paved road because you're just that awesome?

 

If you think for a second that I'm going to believe you somehow magically have total control over every single miniscule thing that happens on the battle field, then I'm afraid you're pulling the wool over the wrong person's heads.

 

I may not have twenty Warframes fully modded to choose from, with forty different weapons each with three different configurations on them, but I'm not a friggin' moron. Not EVERYTHING is controllable. There ARE times when no matter how good you THINK you are, you still get laid out like someone slammed into you with a Mac Truck. Just because you delude yourself into thinking you're the bee's knees and are infallible, doesn't mean I'm not smart enough to recognise a pile of sticking crap when I smell it.

 

Having a mission that is about surviving and then taking away that which is needed TO survive is poor designing. End of story. It's pointless, and no matter how many exploit excuses you throw at it, nothing will change the fact that it is a BS tactic and a troll mechanism.

 

Every miniscule thing?  Lol what?

 

If you're at a point by 10 minutes where one knockdown is going to end things for you, you've already screwed up really badly.  This isn't "Mess up once and that's it".  You've got to make a very long list of errors to find yourself in that situation.  You're not killing fast enough or not picking up enemy O2 drops, not moving to the available pods in a timely fashion. 

 

It requires so many errors it might as well be an episode of Gilligan's island. 

[(PSN)Lord_Silvador]

 

The problem is that you assume "that which is needed to survive" is being taken away without you being able to do anything about it.

 

The reality is that you're allowing it to be taken away. If you were better you could have hit that LS faster and there would have been no issue. But you were slow and you failed because of it, and you want to blame it on something other than your failure. Sorry, that's not gonna fly. It's YOUR OWN BLOODY FAULT that the LS went away. You are CONSTANTLY shown and reminded that life support is draining. Life support is ALWAYS marked on the map so that you can get to it in plenty of time. If you hit it with very very low amounts left, it has a grace period so that you don't fail while you're in the middle of activation. Heck, the location of the life support is marked in advance to give you plenty of time to get to its location. Stop blaming DE for your own failure.

Yeah, being forced to navigate through twists, turns, over banisters and boxes, and through hordes of flailing, shooting and vision obscuring mobs, while having to sidetrack for health pickups, energy pickups, ammo to actually kill things, and occasionally being knocked on my backside by a random enemy is entirely MY FAULT that I'm a few seconds off from getting to the mark.

 

Why should they let you continue to get rewards after failing?

Oh, gee, I don't know, how about BECAUSE I SURVIVED! The name of the game is to survive. So fail me when I DON'T! Fail me when I DIE! If my air runs out, KILL ME! Maybe instead of just letting hp run down to 5, it should KEEP GOING TO ZERO! Oh, no! That'll stop people getting to the exit after the air has run out. But wait, I thought if the air ran out, you failed? O:

[Phatose]

Good god man, you've got a hyper-advanced void ninja battlesuit, with a charge that dashes through enemies and a stomp that literally lifts all enemies around up into the air and suspends them there.  You can run on walls.  You've got an arsenal filled with guns and swords and explosives.  You've got a timer telling you exactly how long you have to get where you need to go, an arrow that points you exactly where you need to go, and despite all this somehow it's still not your fault you can't manage to walk where you're going in time?

[Macdermott]

You're taking this too personal.  Seriously this thread will be locked given how heated up and angry you're getting.

 

If you can't handle the requirements of this game, then you'd best not play it.  No sense getting all frazzled over it.

 

I agree that in your case, the fail condition was met.  You let Life Support drop below 0% before the timer for the alert reward ran out.  It's a simple thing. Fail condition met, no rewards given.

 

Because it happened on an alert, you didn't have the option to extract unless you made it the whole ten minutes.

[CrazyCatLad]

I agree with both sides of the argument.

 

 

I wish survival was like the Defense except you don't have to defend anything.  You don't get rewards until waves are cleared and you don't have to worry about oxygen RNG.  (I.E. Infinite Killing Floor-esque games that and have minibosses every fifth wave or so)

Edited November 10, 2014 by Lanieu

[Abenoki]

 

 

And make no mistake, this is not the ONLY time I have run into this issue. I have clawed my way to almost Mastery Rank 7 virtually single handedly due to my PS4's inexplicable aversion to registering an open NAT, and do not wish to be stopped by... such poor forward thinking of someone's mind other than my own.

 

 

 

 

Open Nat issues cant be fixed by DE, Sony, and isnt a problem with your PS4

 

Its an issue with either your ISP/Modem or Router, if you want to get that fixed take it up with your ISP or do some research to make sure your router doesnt need to be configured a certain way.

 

Rest sounds like you had a failed mission  and are pissed about it

 

If you learn how Survival works you can know pretty much exactly where the next pod will be and you can properly manage your LS and the enemies. Sounds more like you dont know what youre doing and may have encountered a bug or 2.

Edited November 10, 2014 by Echoa

[GrapplerBot]

Yeah, being forced to navigate through twists, turns, over banisters and boxes, and through hordes of flailing, shooting and vision obscuring mobs, while having to sidetrack for health pickups, energy pickups, ammo to actually kill things, and occasionally being knocked on my backside by a random enemy is entirely MY FAULT that I'm a few seconds off from getting to the mark.

 

Yep. It's your own fault. Learn to parkour, get a carrier, get your guns, go in a party, use iron skin.

 

It's YOUR OWN FAULT if you couldn't get to the LS in time.

 

Oh, gee, I don't know, how about BECAUSE I SURVIVED! The name of the game is to survive. So fail me when I DON'T! Fail me when I DIE! If my air runs out, KILL ME! Maybe instead of just letting hp run down to 5, it should KEEP GOING TO ZERO! Oh, no! That'll stop people getting to the exit after the air has run out. But wait, I thought if the air ran out, you failed? O:

 

You do fail if the air runs out. That's why you don't get any more rewards. The time period from after the air runs out to the extraction is a grace period so people like you who don't pay attention to life support levels can at least keep the rewards you've earned so far and not lose everything.

 

I can tell already that if it just outright killed you when LS ran out, you'd be in here complaining about that, too.

[(PSN)Lord_Silvador]

I can tell already that if it just outright killed you when LS ran out, you'd be in here complaining about that, too.

You see, that's where you're wrong. Failing because I've died from running out of air actually makes sense, as opposed to mysteriously disappearing Life Support Systems. Run out of air, die, fail. Run out of air, survive, get more air, keep going. It's really not a hard thing to figure out.

 

And if by some moronic chance you think that by dying you'd lose all your already gained rewards, allow me to point out that even when you fail a defense mission, you still get the rewards you've already earned.

[AoiiToori]

Know what needs an overhaul? Exterminate. The mode that promotes players rushing. Extermination Invasions are soooooooooooo boooooooriiiing.

[saltygr33n]

I have done many "alert" infested survival missions, and really, LS drops are just horrible, not to mention their spawn rates are rather ........ slow.... Appears Nekros is needed for these "alert" infested survival missions, but then again, it's probably just me thinking or doing something wrong.

[Topherius]

Was there a change im not aware of since yesterday?  Ive never had an issue with survival really. I jsut make sure I do a few things:

 

I never activate any pod until theres an announcement one is incoming or I have a second ready to go, as well as never activating unless its around 60% or a bit lower to get the most out of that pod (normally it boosts me form 60 to around 80+% with one activation).  The drops from them seemed enough to balance out times im going to the next pod after just activating the one im waiting at.

 

I dont know maybe im just not understanding the overall issue here.

[AoiiToori]

The trick is to not have hallway heroes and stick in one room, preferrable where the most life support capsules are. Most I've done without a nekros was 30min.

Edited November 10, 2014 by AoiiToori

[Hypernaut1]

Know what needs an overhaul? Exterminate. The mode that promotes players rushing. Extermination Invasions are soooooooooooo boooooooriiiing.

There needs to be a stealth exterminate mission. One that increases the enemy count every time an alarm gets raised.

 

It could also use a boss/target that you could either stealthy kill quickly or have to fight him and a bunch of minions if alarms are raised.

[Topherius]

Know what needs an overhaul? Exterminate. The mode that promotes players rushing. Extermination Invasions are soooooooooooo boooooooriiiing.

 

 

Yeah they are boring, I normally just consider them 'race to the extraction point' missions.  Alot of the time im just playing catch up, depending on when I spawn in.

[kazeyama]

Survival needs an overhaul not to require nekros. Like increase the capsule drop rate by double but decrease the amount of LS it gives. I would even say a 100% drop rate if it only gave 1% life support or maybe .5% life support. Someway where survival is actually about beating the enemies and surviving instead of running around trying to find enemies while also hoping a canister spawns near you. 

[Tymerc]

I would like to see something new added to Survival tbh. It's much too easy to go 1-2+ hours (depending on if i'm leveling stuff or just messing around) in T3/T4 by myself as Frost Prime because I casually stomp the enemy for unlimited air drops with my broken weapons.

Edited November 10, 2014 by Tymerc