Reviver

[Llyssa]

So....

 

Imagine there was a node.

 

A node that was WILDLY POPULAR!

 

A node that was perhaps a showcase perfect storm of what tenno can do.

 

A node to end all nodes.

 

Like Xini of yore. Like Viver of yesterday. THE NODE.

 

On the one hand, we want to bring balance to the force.

 

On the other hand, "MUH NODES!"

 

...what if there was a dark sector-style deal, with an epic farming node, but with control and access issues? A place to go without the "screw that, it's way over-taxed" problem?

 

A perfect node.

 

I mean, really--Viver was a "perfect node", but the fact it was free 24/7 access to all comers made it problematic.Many other things factor in to how that played out, but the biggest issue, the truest issue, was that everyone had access all the time, without interruption.

 

We liked it and we hated it and we went there. We wanted to go there, and it was easy to reach.

 

If we just take out that last part... the "easy to reach" part? Suddenly it's a lot more interesting, and perhaps even within the realm of sanity. Sure, you can level up a weapon with insane spam. However, getting in will require more than just 4 clicks.

 

We have key systems. We have DS systems, we have syndicates...

 

The obvious answer would be a combination of those--needing to help syndicates control nodes to align gates to get keys to access the perfect location. Like the void(lorewise, in the void), but designed towards replicating viver-like conditions.... and probably with a radiation sickness--similar to, but far more pronounced than operation gate crash.

 

The radiation sickness would need to be O:GC at a factor of 7 or 10, but with a half life like argon--if you did it once a day, every day, the effects would be mild, reducing back to zero after a week. If you did it several times in a single day, it would build up fast to the point of impossibility.

 

A fun, highly rewarding, sealed environment with some heavy-duty access and replay restrictions. We'd still go for it, we just wouldn't be able to play ONLY that.

 

Perhaps, as bonus incentive, we could do "trailing".... each unique node you visit after going to the perfect node would reduce the amount of time in your RS half life--a completed world tour(every single node of every single planet, all the derelicts and voids(we'll skip out the pvp part)) would cleanse it from you completely. Repeating nodes wouldn't count against you, but would not add to the total done. Of course, nodes you've irradiated lately would stay that way for at least a few days, to discourage a systematic pattern(and perhaps some tactical usage of the system).

 

So the goal would be to do the whatevers to get the key, go in, then run missions elsewhere so you can go back with another key and not suck horribly at it.(Or, you could just wait a week and you'd be okay). The particularly awesome part of a system like this is that it could be done with no need for RNG--completely player driven. You can decide how much perfect node you need, and you can easily influence how powerful you'll be when you get there, you just have to do the stuff to get it.

 

I don't see a reason why we couldn't do that--purposely embrace the madness, but temper it so that it's a beloved game feature, rather than a glaring flaw.

[FLSH_BNG]

This sounds to me like a pretty decent idea. I'm all for having a little more work involved in getting my Xini/Viver on.

 

I'd like to see what the DEv's have to say about this... I hope it's positive.

[Killerkarpfen]

The map is outdated in every way, shape and form. It was made before the vast majority of frames, their powers and power boosting mods existed. It is simply not up to snuff with gameplay demands of our current game and for certain game modes will be replaced with specially made tiles, read Corpus Ship Interception tile.

[Llyssa]

The map is outdated in every way, shape and form. It was made before the vast majority of frames, their powers and power boosting mods existed. It is simply not up to snuff with gameplay demands of our current game and for certain game modes will be replaced with specially made tiles, read Corpus Ship Interception tile.

Okay, but what I meant is less about that specific tile, and more about the abstract idea of it. Something players want to flock to, whatever it is, but properly gated so that it's not the literal free for all that Viver was. Viver with enough conditions to make it a balanced gameplay scenario.

[AlphaHorseman]

So you want not only the level of annoyance that came with getting Hydroid with the farming beacons, crafting the key, AND THEN hoping RNG was nice with you with his parts, that level of annoyance and unneeded tedious grind walls, AND for it to be only accessible once a week? ON TOP of having the annoying pseudo difficulty ramping that Gate Crash had? Why? It sounds more like a hindrance than a help. Making all this work for one bloody node when there's more pressing issues than "perfect node" style things (which we most likely already have in-game), and then centering the accessibility of that node through the completion of the entire star chart and otherwise just centers the attention on that node, therein negating any "not focused on that node" sense you were trying to give. 

 

And how does it make sense to have that node be the only node with that kind of inaccessibility? It sounds more like a bad move than anything else.

[Satwo]

Okay, but what I meant is less about that specific tile, and more about the abstract idea of it. Something players want to flock to, whatever it is, but properly gated so that it's not the literal free for all that Viver was. Viver with enough conditions to make it a balanced gameplay scenario.

 

personal example:

coordinate pieces that can be crafted similar to the dragon keys. if 4 tenno have one of each key, they can go into a special gate that the corpus use to station themselves from their barracks once they are prepared. going through this gate sends your team to that perticular barracks, where the corpus are widely unprepared. as easy as shooting chargers in a vortex. with a special kind of crewman that has a heightened chance of dropping some of the more rare mods and resources.

 

itd be like a preemptive raid on a faction and their resources. clone tanks for grineer, corpus barracks, things of that sort where the enemy would be ill prepared, but would also have lots of goodies to loot from. getting exp from wrecking the place as an added bonus.

[CY13ERPUNK]

+1 OP

 

we need the gate crash and breeding grounds iterative difficulty mechanics introduced into the game as part of a holistic challenge system

 

it would encourage ppl to either play a variety of different mission types and/or create the necessary challenge for those ppl doing the same thing over and over again

[Fraggoth]

+1 OP

 

we need the gate crash and breeding grounds iterative difficulty mechanics introduced into the game as part of a holistic challenge system

 

it would encourage ppl to either play a variety of different mission types and/or create the necessary challenge for those ppl doing the same thing over and over again

While I agree with this in principle, implementation would have to be done rather carefully. An example of how a similar system can become onerous is the "Bonus Experience" system in Payday 2.

 

It was originally introduced to combat people's tendency to run the heist/mission Rats (and Rats Pro) over and over to grind experience, which was occurring because A) it took forever to get relevant amounts of Exp from most of the other missions, and B) Rats could be done very quickly with a comparatively low skill cap (mostly due to the speed at which it could be completed).

 

Where the downside of that system becomes apparent is in that while it would give you a potentially sizable bonus to experience gained from a given heist if you mixed things up and played a greater variety of heists, if you tried playing the same one over and over again you would diminish your experience gains to literally zero. This would also affect heists that were particularly similar - say if you ran Bank Heist: Gold over and over again, the other Bank Heist variants would suffer a decreased Exp payout as well.

 

Mind you, the Payday 2 example didn't directly affect difficulty beyond making you have to occasionally do heists you otherwise wouldn't just to make a heist you DID want to run start paying out again.

 

That said, forcing people to play at a pace or in a way they simply don't want to can be pretty detrimental. It's tough to implement a system like that in such a way that people aren't alienated.

 

THAT said, I really enjoyed those events and wouldn't mind having more of that kind of Scalar Difficulty in Warframe, at least if done in such a way that it doesn't force people to play in a way they don't want to.

[Llyssa]

While I agree with this in principle, implementation would have to be done rather carefully. An example of how a similar system can become onerous is the "Bonus Experience" system in Payday 2.

 

It was originally introduced to combat people's tendency to run the heist/mission Rats (and Rats Pro) over and over to grind experience, which was occurring because A) it took forever to get relevant amounts of Exp from most of the other missions, and B) Rats could be done very quickly with a comparatively low skill cap (mostly due to the speed at which it could be completed).

 

Where the downside of that system becomes apparent is in that while it would give you a potentially sizable bonus to experience gained from a given heist if you mixed things up and played a greater variety of heists, if you tried playing the same one over and over again you would diminish your experience gains to literally zero. This would also affect heists that were particularly similar - say if you ran Bank Heist: Gold over and over again, the other Bank Heist variants would suffer a decreased Exp payout as well.

 

Mind you, the Payday 2 example didn't directly affect difficulty beyond making you have to occasionally do heists you otherwise wouldn't just to make a heist you DID want to run start paying out again.

 

That said, forcing people to play at a pace or in a way they simply don't want to can be pretty detrimental. It's tough to implement a system like that in such a way that people aren't alienated.

 

THAT said, I really enjoyed those events and wouldn't mind having more of that kind of Scalar Difficulty in Warframe, at least if done in such a way that it doesn't force people to play in a way they don't want to.

Definitely don't want the payday thing. I mean that the sickness would apply towards the "perfect node", specifically, and less of a "make it challenging", and more of a "cut down the usage".

 

I guess I wasn't being overly clear--Viver let you go in and rack up tons of points quickly, and then exit, and then go back in at exactly the same power, and do it again and again.

 

The idea here is that you'd go to Viver2, rack up tons of points quickly, and then exit, and if you go back in immediately, you'll be working at like 10% efficiency--you can still do it, if you want to, and the points will still be relatively quick, but you're also going to be horribly under-gunned for the situation. Going a third time would take you down to 1% of your initial efficiency, and another time would be down to a fraction smaller yet, ad infinitum.

 

However, once you go down to 10% efficiency, if you go do 3 other missions, you'd go up to 11%, or if you go do 30 other missions, you'd go up to 20%.. and just letting a single day pass without doing any missions at all would put you up to 55%(2 days ==78%, 3 days==88%, 4 days==95%, 5 days==98%, 6 days ==99%, 7 days ==100%). Some combination of waiting and playing other things could bring you back up to 100%, but if you then go back to Viver2, you'd drop down to 10% again, and have to repeat the restoration process--but any mission you'd already used to boost yourself up wouldn't count for boosting again for 3 days after you did it last.

 

Your performance on any mission other than Viver2 would be regular, but when visiting Viver2, you'd be at whatever gimped level you've managed since your last run there.

 

There'd also be a (no-RNG-involved) gating Viver2 quest requirement to get in, like performing 4 tasks to get 4 keys(or 1 task to get 1 key, and getting 3 other people with the 3 other keys), with the keys being a guaranteed reward from the quest they come from.

 

All of this would balance against Viver2 being the ultimate payout--tons of points, mods, endless supplies of angry, not-too-horribly-strong eximii... everything you could hope a node would have would be there in Viver2--like the original, only better, because it was planned this way.

 

So if you want in for the free-for-all slaughterfest and loot bonanza, you can get there. If you go too often, you're not going to get as much out of it(well, you will, but it will be MUCH harder), but if you pace yourself, it would be a great, rewarding experience worth working towards.

[Llyssa]

Example gating: There are 4 control nodes. When a player finishes a node for their syndicate, their syndicate gains power at that node. Whichever syndicate has the most points at a control node owns it. However, gaining points at a control node lowers the points the syndicate has at other nodes, and all points decay with time.

 

When a player completes the control node 3 times with the owning faction, they acquire an eldritch fraction, part of a key to the Viver2. Four eldritch fractions must be equipped in a team's combined gear inventory to get in to Viver2--2 sets of opposing fractions(as determined by the "enemy" of the syndicate that supplied it).

 

To counter-balance it, running a control node with a syndicate sigil for a faction not at the top of the leader board would offer a bonus to you based on how far down the rankings they are--the lower the ranking, the more they're willing to pay you to help them gain the control node.

 

Thus, you'd be quite able to select when you get a key and how hard it is, and there would be zero RNG involved at all, but all of the rest of the game still comes to bear on the decision of how you accomplish this.

[MantisCore]

A grind to access the grind? No thank you. This sounds like the complete opposite of what I'd like Warframe to be. The less gated content the better in my opinion.

[Llyssa]

A grind to access the grind? No thank you. This sounds like the complete opposite of what I'd like Warframe to be. The less gated content the better in my opinion.

So you just want Viver back?

[Mesyra]

So you just want Viver back?

....yes.....

 

this idea of the OP is interesting. I dont know if I'm on board with it.

[.-KG-..-Ragulab-.]

x10 boost and people still cry because viver is gone.

Edited November 17, 2014 by .-KG-..-Ragulab-.

[Papper2k]

I personally could care less about Viver, I kinda wish Raid mission type would make a comeback

[Llyssa]

....yes.....

 

this idea of the OP is interesting. I dont know if I'm on board with it.

Official concensus is that viver is broken, so it's not coming back. However, if there was something balancing the brokenness....

[Jinryusai]

The map is outdated in every way, shape and form. It was made before the vast majority of frames, their powers and power boosting mods existed. It is simply not up to snuff with gameplay demands of our current game and for certain game modes will be replaced with specially made tiles, read Corpus Ship Interception tile.

But unfortunetly you guys make the same mistake and that is the lack of enemies. this Viver was an eye opener, for once(at least w/o power spam), this map kept you alert and on the move and was rather challenging. You guys then took that challenge away and are now left with boring maps. ALL the endless maps(except Fornorian Survival and Mine ship survival) are all boring and lack enemies while Viver and those two maps were flooded with them. Even the defense version of maps noted in parentheses are boring. Even Sechura is boring.

 

Cerberus isn't all that exciting, but somewhat interesting, but still a snoozefest, well, less than other maps and less than before.

 

When someone plays an endless mission, they expect an endless waves to come at thee, not for thee to look for thy enemies to kill whilst gasping for air or drinking caffeine or whatnot to stayeth awake.

 

The community wants endless waves in their endless missions, the least you can do is keep em coming, fast spawn them, etc.

 

If you are worried about XP(except for warframes which are SLOW), you can give little less XP than usual, although that would be bad for warframes since they continue to level slow. They can use some slack especially peace loving ones with powers that never kill.

 

if something is not doe about this, you'll soon have braindead zombies on these maps sleepplaying through the missions.

 

If they are going to get that much XP or more, they should work for it, they are not working for it, they are $&*^ing around and "trolling" other people getting rewarded for it. They should not have time to play mind games with others, they should be fighting for their life.

 

So suggest you bring back Vivermania, let it live on in other maps and let it's concept spread to other endless maps except Archwing interception on high level missions since less enemies is good unless you take away the silent rockets.

[Jinryusai]

Constant Flow Of Enemies Is What Endless Missions Need(Fast Spawning) No More Sleepwalking Or Sleepkilling.

[VanLyrr]

@OP Viver wasn't a perfect node. It turned warframe into a macro-farm. So asking for a developer-approved version of that is not gonna happen.

[Monolake]

The map is outdated in every way, shape and form. It was made before the vast majority of frames, their powers and power boosting mods existed. It is simply not up to snuff with gameplay demands of our current game and for certain game modes will be replaced with specially made tiles, read Corpus Ship Interception tile.

 

Don't you think the whole defence/md mode is outdated with the current state of power, where you can whipe everything in 59m radius spaming ult with unlimited energy supply from Trinity. Or if you make a large map, like Draco /Ceres half the time is spent waiting for mobs which is simply boring, or encourages players to go camp spawns instead of defending the objective. 

Edited November 17, 2014 by Monolake

[MantisCore]

So you just want Viver back?

Not at all. But I don't think bringing it back and then putting another grind on top of it is any sort of improvement.

 

On a more general note I'm not a big fan of gated content over all. That includes void/derelict/Vay Hek keys as well. You should play the part of the game you find fun. Playing a part of the game you don't like in order to access a part that you do is not fun.

[DSpite]

The ENTIRE game has to be made so that each part is worth playing because they are fun to play, with rewards being totally secondary.

 

You are suggesting a gated "loot cave". That is insane.

 

This is not Borderlands where the drop rates for Orange gear is 1:10000 and people farm Bosses until their brain pops.

We are meant to be agents working for others, doing basically spec ops missions, and you want to reduce that to another loot farming game.

 

A million time no.

 

I want the game play options to be expanded and the loot drops to be something that happens in the background as a welcome surprise, not have the Solar Map empty and everyone starting concentrating into an "controlled" loot cave system.

 

Normal players that end up getting a ton of gear that is duplicated should be allowed by the game to eventually trade it in and get points towards getting gear they DONT have. I would happily give an NPC 50 Plat worth of "on the player market" gear, to get a mod selling on the once again "player market" for 10 plat just to avoid all that mess - and no, I would hate an auction house more, in case you were thinking it - because the game should reward in some way the fact that we do play it.

 

It should not cover us in loot, but should streamline the process of getting gear to SOME level. If I have 10 Loki P Systems and 8 Loki Helmets, surely I can trade a bunch of those for the missing Chassis, even if the damn thing is being shipped from Ceres on a sub light ship powered by camels on a treadmill.

Edited November 18, 2014 by DSpite

[BrazilianJoe]

 

This is not Borderlands where the drop rates for Orange gear is 1:10000 and people farm Bosses until their brain pops.

We are meant to be agents working for others, doing basically spec ops missions, and you want to reduce that to another loot farming game.

 

 

Uhhhh. This is just OPINION ;)

 

[the grind is real]

 

But this is the kind of gameplay which burns out the players eventually, so the game must encourage other playstyles. 

 

I think that the problem is not just that the content is gated. It is a kaleidoscope of gates and RNG on top of RNG to get the stuff. 

 

I should be able to look for a part and slant my odds to find it in a quest-like system, instead of all this crazy rng carousel. 

[Llyssa]

Many curious thoughts.

 

My point was: Viver was a place everyone wanted to go, and everyone was excited to visit.

 

There exists no such place in the game right now.

 

To the various people saying that I implied or directly stated "make mistakes from elsewhere", that is neither my intention nor desire.

 

I don't want botched attempts at things. I want something to actually work towards, that's worthwhile.

 

Viver, for anything you can detract from it, was a proper amount of enemies, a proper amount of difficulty, and a decent reward level. That's what made it interesting.

 

I never said, at any point, "THROW RNG AT US", ever, at all. Anyone bringing that concept up clearly is unable to read, and should refrain from commenting. No one likes RNG walls, and I never once suggested it.

 

It should be a clear, concise achievement, and something worth achieving, a thing with inherent replay value.

 

Nobody goes back to lephantis for fun. Nobody does Hek for kicks. Only the truly twisted do t4 missions if they don't need prime parts. There exists, at this time, no part of the game that exists specifically for the fun and excitement of it. Everything has some sort of purpose, and fun is a side-effect.

 

I want something where fun is the goal, and there is no other purpose than getting there.

 

That shouldn't be impossible or difficult or even hard to relate to. I'm surprised that it's meeting such opposition.

[vats3]

wait let me get this stright, so lets say you went to viver and got no syndicate exp at all, like completly remove syndicate from the equation, OP would you still do it?