Thoughts On "press 4 To Win"

[Racercowboy]

Warframe has the potential to change the way the 4 key is viewed on your keyboard. It grants access to some of the most powerful (some game breaking) abilities in the game. We all know that continuously mashing this key gets old, but what really causes us to press this key so much?

 

After thinking for awhile, I realized something. In an attempt to figure out other methods to replace the 4 key, I found out that there really is no replacement for them. When you get surrounded by a bunch of grineer what options do you have for dealing with them?

 

- You can try to take them out with your weapons, which will usually be one by one even with fully decked out weapons just because of how they behave

 

- To counter this, you can try position in such a way where they are all in front of you and use punch through on your guns, but then they spawn behind you

 

- You can run, which doesn't work with every game mode. Also you get no loot and exp.

 

- You can use CC powers to distract them while you kill them with weapons, which can be effective depending on what frame you use but may take time in which more will spawn.

 

- You can press 4 and instantly nuke the whole area clearing them out.

 

As you can see, we don't have many tools for dealing with swarms of enemies, which are very common in this game. The 4 nukes are not only one of the few, but the best tools for dealing with the situation. What's better than pressing the delete key and watch your problem vaporize right before your eyes? I can't think of something much better, except having Nyx prime helmet and Bo prime handle drop in the midst of the destruction.

 

Another thing is that most of the 4 powers are Nukes. Not all of them are, but most of them serve a similar function: Lay waste to everyone along with their extended family. While it may make sense for some frames to have a nuke 4 (Nova for instance) It doesn't make as much sense on other frames (Trinity, although she doesn't have a nuke 4, just an example). Vauban's 4 is not a nuke and yet it helps a lot with the large crowds, but it does so in a Vauban-like fashion. Valkyr's 4 is the same way, as is Nekros' 4. They may not be at the same caliber of CC, but that is the point: Not every frame should excel in the same way. Valkyr's does not damage crowds all at once, but she becomes invincible (which by itself I personally disagree with, but that's for another topic) ignoring the damage from the crowd so she can take them out safely. Still good for large crowds, but different functions. We need more of this in other frames.

 

Wouldn't it be cool if if radial javelin(skana) strike instead of nuking everything in range was a buff that cause excalibur to spawn javelins around him, and at regular intervals while attacking. A small amount of energy is consumed each time a javelin is fired. Shooting with a gun fires javelins faster, but each hit with melee reduces the spawn time of the next javelin by a small amount. Slash dash consumes all javelins for extra hits depending on how many javelins were consumed. If activated again or at the end of the duration, all remaining javelins(skanas) will then perform a devastating attack in a small area around Excalibur, with the damage increasing for each javelin remaining. This ultimate is not a nuke, but at the same time it helps Excalibur in the time of need, providing extra firepower at the expense of energy.

 

Another thing is how free we are to use 4 abilities. Its very, very cost efficient to press 4 and there is absolutely nothing stopping us from doing so except energy. This I think is another issue, as it makes another why would you choose this stupid situation (the most famous one being status mods). Sure, we can choose to slash dash instead of radial javelin strike against a crowd, but let me ask: Why would you do that to yourself? You could argue that 4 slash dashes does twice the damage of one radial javelin strike, but only in a straight line aoe in front of you and over a much, much longer duration. It's certainly not worth the extra time and effort. On top of that radial javelin strike stuns, so even if they live, it buys you time to kill them, while slash dash does not. In the end, you're shooting yourself in the Orokin Reactor by choosing slash dash over radial javelin strike for dealing with crowds. If choosing to press 4 was an actual choice and not a dumb test maybe we'd see less keyboards with broken 4 keys.

 

Well, that is then end of my thoughts, just had to get that out. Also, for those who broke their 4 keys the delete key works just as well.

 

 

[R34LM]

You hit one main problem in this whole debate: with the rather crappy spawning in the game you get 20-30 enemies clumped in one small room (to the point where they can't even walk). I'd rather nuke the room quickly than take them out one by one while being marauded by a wall of bullets. This is can very well be seen on Ceres, where the aimbots live.

[DietEbolaCola]

I think they tried to fix this by requiring Line of Sight. It didn't end well.

[oinkah]

Radial nukes are good.

Fleeting expertise is evil.

[.-KG-..-Ragulab-.]

dont use 4 then

[BoneBreakerx]

dont really see the point of this tread... unless its about enemy spawns and spawn rates....

[alphafive]

I think 4 nukes are ok,for easily clearing lower-mid tier enemies, since they die so quickly with anything. I do think all nukes should have some sort of utility for higher level enemies. For radial javelin i think it would be awesome if it force proced puncture, reducing enemy damage.

[MsSharpThing]

As someone who consistently mains a gas/status chance/crit Torid in survival and defense, I don't have a problem with it. This is because I use AOE weapons designed to take out clumps of enemies at once.

 

(Oh, and this happened to me because my most-used 'Frame was Mag Prime, whose 4 is terrible.)

[Racercowboy]

dont really see the point of this tread... unless its about enemy spawns and spawn rates....

 

I guess my point is in the current game there is no reason not to press 4 in 90% of the situations. Given that DE wants to do something about the 4 spam, maybe something can be done about the reasons why we 4 spam.

[MechaKnight]

Radial nukes are good.

Fleeting expertise is evil.

In an alternate universe where Fleeting Expertise didn't exist, we'd only have 30% efficiency. It would only be a reduction from 100 energy to 70 energy to cast that radial nuke. It simply means 3 energy orbs instead of 4. We might not want to spam radial nukes because our energy supply isn't amazingly bountiful.

 

Now let's get back to reality. Maximum efficiency, our tier 4 (100 energy) "ultimate" abilities only cost 25 energy--just one orb. Or a short amount of time standing around waiting for Energy Siphon to fill you up. Either way, our radials are so damn dispensable it'd be madness not to spam constantly.

 

I wouldn't mind if our efficiency was brought down to 40%, but all that means for most of us is either not use Fleeting Expertise, or just rank up Blind Rage until you meet the ideal cap. It would prevent us from spamming as much, but I question if it's enough. We may need an entirely new system to dictate how dispensable our abilities are.

Edited November 23, 2014 by MechaKnight

[oinkah]

In an alternate universe where Fleeting Expertise didn't exist, we'd only have 30% efficiency

Energy vampire, siphon stacking, desecrate and team restore spamming would still exist in that universe. But at least those require some pre-planning, instead of simply slapping -75% efficiency and forgetting about energy entirely.

 

Overall, that would be a much more pleasant universe to play in.

[shut]

Radial nukes are good.

Fleeting expertise is evil.

 

Agreed. It's nice to have a powerful game-changing ability, but it trivializes the game if it's accessible whenever you want it to be.

 

Having enough energy for an ability needs to mean something. I think the best way to solve the whole Pr4TW issue is to revamp the energy system as a whole, and make it so "4" abilities are still ludicrously powerful, but can't just be pressed on a whim with no drawbacks.

And no, I'm not talking about some horrid cooldown system; I'm talking about a system that makes you earn the Energy for abilities (through dealing damage, taking damage, reviving teammates, pulling off parkour stunts, completing objectives (or assisting in doing so), etc) rather than relying on RNG as we do now.

[MechaKnight]

Agreed. It's nice to have a powerful game-changing ability, but it trivializes the game if it's accessible whenever you want it to be.

 

Having enough energy for an ability needs to mean something. I think the best way to solve the whole Pr4TW issue is to revamp the energy system as a whole, and make it so "4" abilities are still ludicrously powerful, but can't just be pressed on a whim with no drawbacks.

And no, I'm not talking about some horrid cooldown system; I'm talking about a system that makes you earn the Energy for abilities (through dealing damage, taking damage, reviving teammates, pulling off parkour stunts, completing objectives (or assisting in doing so), etc) rather than relying on RNG as we do now.

I saw another thread show a problem with the "earn" system but I can't find it now. The gist of that user's post was that by stealing kills from teammates constantly, said player will gain the ability to use their abilities more than other players who can't kill as fast. The rich get richer, and the poor get poorer.

 

I would recommend increased energy cost for those "4" abilities, but that wouldn't change anything--With the current efficiency caps we have now, it'll only take 37.5 energy to spam that 150 energy ability. It barely fixes the problem at all.

 

Ability system rework threads have popped up, with a variety of ideas. The most common one I've seen is implementing cooldowns, but the best one I've seen is degrading efficiencies. If you spam an ability, it would cost more next time you cast it. This can not be applied to every ability as the cheaper abilities are expected to be used frequently. It will definitely apply with harsher percentage penalties on more powerful abilities however.

 

In the vein of that other thread, I suggest an additional mechanic. Remember the Gate Crash event? Let's introduce those scaling mechanics. If you spam an ability, it would degrade rapidly. It would be restored to full strength if you stop using it for a while, but if used too often it will gradually fall off. All power attributes of strength, range, and duration would fall until the ability becomes nearly worthless.

 

However, maybe even this is not enough. The biggest problem is how the "4 nukes" scale in energy consumption compared to our other abilities.

 

Oberon:

Smite: Hit one target with Radiation status and 500 damage, hit 6 more after that with puncture status for 150 Radiation damage.

"Hmm, that's sounds nice."

 

Reckoning: hit infinite enemies within a 15 meter radius for 1250 radiation/impact damage, blind them, inflict radiation status, and give little red cherry orbs if you kill them with it.

"BARGAIN!"

 

It doesn't matter if it costs only 4 times as much, or 10 times as much. Some players may find practical uses for this ability even if it cost 20 times as much. Also, Oberon is actually one of the most balanced examples I can give where the first ability in his kit is even appreciable for the 25 energy it costs compared to his "4 nuke." If you try the same comparison with Excalibur, it's a no-brainer. Excalibur would use his radial over his Slash Dash even if it cost more than 20 times as much. Now that I think about it, Radial Blind is looking a bit shabby for 12.5 energy (rounded to 13) when it does no damage. Radial Javelin blinds enemies as well through walls and inflicts damage for only 25 energy. Super Jump is cheap at 4 energy, but your Energy Siphon would patch that up in a few seconds so feel free to spam that alongside your rain of javelins.

 

My point being, whoever drafting our ability cost system who decided our fourth ability is linearly as valuable as our first ability being cast 4 times really should be shown some extensive spontaneous gameplay within Warframe. There is very little reason to use our other abilities, unless their effect for their cost is mind-numbingly effective in comparison (Mag's Pull compared to her Crush) or is insanely powerful (infinite scaling launchable nukes from Nova's Antimatter Drop).

 

The whole system needs a rework from the ground up. It's no small wonder why the developers have made the archwing efficiency mod so comparatively mild in comparison. It only gives 27.5% efficiency, yet is a rank 10 mod. Smaller limitations like these would have been better for the whole game in the long run.

Edited November 24, 2014 by MechaKnight

[Blakrana]

Smaller limitations like these would have been better for the whole game in the long run.

 

Thing is, the basic, non-corrupted Warframe mods are pretty tame in the power scale they affect; 30% for Strength, Efficiency and Duration, 45% for Range via stretch. I can't say from first hand experience, but it seems the original mod design was actually as modest in power scope as you suggest.

 

What changed I'm not sure, but I suppose it's that never ending craving for more power.

 

How one'd go about changing it, I'm not sure, although the Damaged mods for things like Serration give a modest % for their cost that's more in line with the early +power mods.

 

Personally I think one of the more...interesting systems for mitigating the spamming of powerful attacks was how Phantasy Star Portable 2 managed it: every character had PP, determined by Race and Gender to vary between 150-200 or so, give or take. This was used to perform evasions, block, cast Technics, fire ranged weapons and perform Photon Arts, and it regenerated over time in play.

 

Now, Photon Arts/Charged Shots/Finishing Spells all had a measure of high power in certain parts, be it high damage multipliers for the attack at certain points or such (Melee PAs basically akin to Stances in practice). What they had though was a Combo System; for every normal attack landed consecutively on the target, the power of any Finisher-bound ability (IE your triangle button) would increase accordingly.

 

Ergo, your most powerful move did significantly more damage on enemies with a 20 Chain in effect, or 30, 40, 50...scale kind of breaks off at 79 in a very short window to make that 80 hit do the deed. Although between then, the chain actually gets progressively harder to lose the higher it got. Rising Crush could be spammed, sure, but it was best to attack normally with your swords, then, when they're reeling from a 50 hit combo, finish them with style~

 

Although yes, typical JRPG damage sponge enemies were a thing to make absurd chains actually necessary. Not essential, especially if you were good at positioning as Back Attacks would get you a Guaranteed Critical hit, which really made Melee a lot more skillful than the game itself would imply. So many dual weapons to play with...and couldn't beat a good Perfect Hit chain for a Rising Crush or Assault Crush combo. I digress...apologies.

 

I am not saying we should get things the same way, rather, I'm just saying it can be done to limit power and not make it painful.

 

Heck, Gunlances in MH have Wyvern's Fire locked out for 120 seconds after being used and I don't think anyone cares that much because you still have your Shelling attacks whilst it cools down; Gunnery King reduces the cooldown to 90 seconds and that's it. God eater, you regained Oracle Points by attacking/biting enemies with your sword or entering burst mode, admittedly done by said Biting attack. Oracle Points let you use your gun functions till it ran out, and a few attacks could be boosted with it.

 

Thing is, both of these are different games where the pace of an MH hunt can be fast or one admittedly epic half hour duel, as could God Eater. Although I could see a God Eater-esque approach working for general attacks serving refill?

 

I guess that's what we need in the end, an Ability system that, when we use our Ultimates, they're damned awesome to use, but they're not so much better that using anything else for a prolonged period of time feels dirty. What's the answer? Whatever it is, it'd have to be engaging. Make the combat visceral and attention grabbing enough, and people won't care they've not used their Ultimate for a good while, and it'll be that much more fun when triggering it because you've earned the right to obliterate that enemy, with the single most important damage type going:

 

Style

[MechaKnight]

@Blakrana: From what I gathered, you mentioned ability systems from two games. From the first game, every ability worked like our melee 2.0 combo system, and the "ultimate" was a finisher move that scaled off the combo count of abilities used beforehand. In the second game you mentioned, ultimate attacks were extremely powerful and flashy, but were kept in line by appropriate cooldowns while the other abilities were free to use constantly. This all sounds fine.

 

Now back to Warframe and our current system. In my previous post, I said players would use abilities even if they cost 20 times as much as our primary abilities, and after some thought I'm actually going somewhere valid.

 

Here's my idea in a stepwise list...

 

1) Boost every warframe's energy pool considerably. Basic warframes like Rhino would have an energy increase from 100 (150 max level) to 500 (750 max level). Caster warframes like Loki Prime would get an energy increase from 175 (262.5 max level) to 875 (1312.5 max level). Yes these numbers sound ludicrous but these numbers are just a quickly written draft, and this is only the first step in the process to balance the economy of abilities.

 

2) Rescale Energy Siphon and Energy Orbs as required. We may have too much energy in disposal already, so the developers can use this process to adjust our energy availability appropriately.

 

3) Rescale abilities. The first priority is to make the room-killing radial damage abilities cost more energy to use in comparison to our other abilities. That said, expect "press 4 ultimate nukes" to increase in cost from 100 energy to 500 energy. Leave all other abilities alone unless they are also variants of radial nukes.

 

4) Refine to perfection.

 

That's it in a nutshell. Assuming our efficiency cap stays the same, we will only spend 6.25 (~7) energy on most first abilities, and 125 energy on our "ultimate nuke". The problems with this system is that we can potentially keep mashing buttons to make those cheap damage abilities go infinitely with no end, but so long as they're not too powerful we'd start using our guns just to have extra fun and kill things faster. The massive energy pool increase will support the radial nuke just as it did before the energy economy rework, but we will have some incentive to use our other abilities and resist those radial damage abilities. We would only use said radial damage in emergencies, as they are supposed to be used.

Edited November 24, 2014 by MechaKnight

[CY13ERPUNK]

I saw another thread show a problem with the "earn" system but I can't find it now. The gist of that user's post was that by stealing kills from teammates constantly, said player will gain the ability to use their abilities more than other players who can't kill as fast. The rich get richer, and the poor get poorer.

 

I would recommend increased energy cost for those "4" abilities, but that wouldn't change anything--With the current efficiency caps we have now, it'll only take 37.5 energy to spam that 150 energy ability. It barely fixes the problem at all.

 

Ability system rework threads have popped up, with a variety of ideas. The most common one I've seen is implementing cooldowns, but the best one I've seen is degrading efficiencies. If you spam an ability, it would cost more next time you cast it. This can not be applied to every ability as the cheaper abilities are expected to be used frequently. It will definitely apply with harsher percentage penalties on more powerful abilities however.

 

In the vein of that other thread, I suggest an additional mechanic. Remember the Gate Crash event? Let's introduce those scaling mechanics. If you spam an ability, it would degrade rapidly. It would be restored to full strength if you stop using it for a while, but if used too often it will gradually fall off. All power attributes of strength, range, and duration would fall until the ability becomes nearly worthless.

 

However, maybe even this is not enough. The biggest problem is how the "4 nukes" scale in energy consumption compared to our other abilities.

 

Oberon:

Smite: Hit one target with Radiation status and 500 damage, hit 6 more after that with puncture status for 150 Radiation damage.

"Hmm, that's sounds nice."

 

Reckoning: hit infinite enemies within a 15 meter radius for 1250 radiation/impact damage, blind them, inflict radiation status, and give little red cherry orbs if you kill them with it.

"BARGAIN!"

 

It doesn't matter if it costs only 4 times as much, or 10 times as much. Some players may find practical uses for this ability even if it cost 20 times as much. Also, Oberon is actually one of the most balanced examples I can give where the first ability in his kit is even appreciable for the 25 energy it costs compared to his "4 nuke." If you try the same comparison with Excalibur, it's a no-brainer. Excalibur would use his radial over his Slash Dash even if it cost more than 20 times as much. Now that I think about it, Radial Blind is looking a bit shabby for 12.5 energy (rounded to 13) when it does no damage. Radial Javelin blinds enemies as well through walls and inflicts damage for only 25 energy. Super Jump is cheap at 4 energy, but your Energy Siphon would patch that up in a few seconds so feel free to spam that alongside your rain of javelins.

 

My point being, whoever drafting our ability cost system who decided our fourth ability is linearly as valuable as our first ability being cast 4 times really should be shown some extensive spontaneous gameplay within Warframe. There is very little reason to use our other abilities, unless their effect for their cost is mind-numbingly effective in comparison (Mag's Pull compared to her Crush) or is insanely powerful (infinite scaling launchable nukes from Nova's Antimatter Drop).

 

The whole system needs a rework from the ground up. It's no small wonder why the developers have made the archwing efficiency mod so comparatively mild in comparison. It only gives 27.5% efficiency, yet is a rank 10 mod. Smaller limitations like these would have been better for the whole game in the long run.

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS

[-InV-igo95862]

I think there should not be more then one direct damage nuke on one warframe. Otherwise only the best damage nuke will be used.

[Ultarion]

One word will fix this whole issue : Cooldown.

[oinkah]

1) Boost every warframe's energy pool considerably. Basic warframes like Rhino would have an energy increase from 100 (150 max level) to 500 (750 max level). Caster warframes like Loki Prime would get an energy increase from 175 (262.5 max level) to 875 (1312.5 max level). Yes these numbers sound ludicrous but these numbers are just a quickly written draft, and this is only the first step in the process to balance the economy of abilities.

2) Rescale Energy Siphon and Energy Orbs as required. We may have too much energy in disposal already, so the developers can use this process to adjust our energy availability appropriately.

3) Rescale abilities. The first priority is to make the room-killing radial damage abilities cost more energy to use in comparison to our other abilities. That said, expect "press 4 ultimate nukes" to increase in cost from 100 energy to 500 energy. Leave all other abilities alone unless they are also variants of radial nukes.

4) Refine to perfection.

I'm afraid this would make fleeting expertise mandatory, as "4" abilities would be inaccessible without it. And if we take into account that fleeting expertise is relatively hard to acquire, this change would mostly punish new players and add first true Pay-2-Win barrier.

Also, frustration from disruptors and various energy sucking auras would increase exponentially.

Edited November 24, 2014 by oinkah

[Lost_Cartographer]

Disruptors 

I'm afraid this would make fleeting expertise mandatory, as "4" abilities would be inaccessible without it. And if we take into account that fleeting expertise is relatively hard to acquire, this change would mostly punish new players and add first true Pay-2-Win barrier.

 

Also, frustration from disruptors and various energy sucking auras would increase exponentially.

Not really.  Anyone can go get fleeting expertise for free, they just need some luck and dedication lacking said luck.  And how early do we need the 4 spam, really?  If we're talking endless modes beyond the first AABC rotation, I think that falls somewhere beyond what DE cares to balance around.

 

DE wants players to win, but not too quickly or too easily.

[oinkah]

I'm just saying that this system would hinder players without efficiency, while not really affecting fleeting expertise users (core demographic of "4 to win" abusers).

 

With current system -75% efficiency user can cast ultimate with 1 energy orb. Player with 0% efficiency needs 4 orbs.

 

Let's assume that ultimate costs 500 energy and blue orb supplies 100 energy.

-75% user would require 1.25 orbs.

   0% user would require 5 orbs.

It barely changes anything for -75% user, ultimates are still very spammable.

 

Let's reduce energy income to 50 per orb. 

-75% user would need 2.5 orbs.

   0% user would need whopping 10 orbs.

At this point 0% user might as well give up on ultimates, while -75% can still manage to cast them regularly and not be crippled in combat.

 

Entire orb based energy mechanic needs to be reworked from the ground up. Maybe into passively regenerating energy or something similar.

Also energy efficiency in any form shouldn't exist in my opinion. It's impact on the game is too great.

 

Archwing efficiency mod gives me some hope that DE at least understand the problem.

[MechaKnight]

I'm just saying that this system would hinder players without efficiency, while not really affecting fleeting expertise users (core demographic of "4 to win" abusers).

 

With current system -75% efficiency user can cast ultimate with 1 energy orb. Player with 0% efficiency needs 4 orbs.

 

Let's assume that ultimate costs 500 energy and blue orb supplies 100 energy.

-75% user would require 1.25 orbs.

   0% user would require 5 orbs.

It barely changes anything for -75% user, ultimates are still very spammable.

 

Let's reduce energy income to 50 per orb. 

-75% user would need 2.5 orbs.

   0% user would need whopping 10 orbs.

At this point 0% user might as well give up on ultimates, while -75% can still manage to cast them regularly and not be crippled in combat.

 

Entire orb based energy mechanic needs to be reworked from the ground up. Maybe into passively regenerating energy or something similar.

Also energy efficiency in any form shouldn't exist in my opinion. It's impact on the game is too great.

 

Archwing efficiency mod gives me some hope that DE at least understand the problem.

Understood completely. I was probably hasty with my mock-up on fixing the ability economy to make radial damage nukes more expensive, but my intentions were simple. Early players without efficiency mods play the game fairly enough. Streamline doesn't break the game too much. Fleeting Expertise is pure evil.

 

I think my earlier post with degrading efficiency and attributes was more appropriate to limit spam in gameplay.

[Inez]

I've been playing this game a looong time. Number of times anyone in any of my groups has complained about 4 spam: zero.

 

So where are you all "we hate ults" people in my games? And why are you so meek?

 

Coming to the forums to whine while saying nothing in game seems abit passive-agressive to me.

[fatpig84]

I've been playing this game a looong time. Number of times anyone in any of my groups has complained about 4 spam: zero.

 

So where are you all "we hate ults" people in my games? And why are you so meek?

 

Coming to the forums to whine while saying nothing in game seems abit passive-agressive to me.

 

Loki ! You better stop pressing 4 because it is unfair that grineer have to use Melee !

Nyx ! You better stop pressing 3 because you remove the challenge !

Vauban ! You better stop pressing 3 or 4 because it is unfair too !

[oinkah]

Loki ! You better stop pressing 4 because it is unfair that grineer have to use Melee !

Nyx ! You better stop pressing 3 because you remove the challenge !

Vauban ! You better stop pressing 3 or 4 because it is unfair too !

While this post is obviously sarcastic, those heavy duty CC abilities do indeed deny all response from enemies, completely removing any signs of struggle from engagements, turning them into a sluggish Duck Hunt.

However, that is sort of justified by ludicrous enemy scaling, where a single bullet can be lethal. If enemy can cheat, then so can we.

There are problems with this kind of approach, but it's a discussion for another topic.