I Dearly Hope The Soma Prime Isn't More Powerful Than The Other Prime Weapons.

[Evan-0-matic]

"No, making it mastery rank 8 and having it cost 20 cells, with the parts droping at a 0.04% rate is not the way to go."

Uh, yes... It is!

I pity the players who main it. No skill required... Find your balls and your dignity, fellow Tenno!

Master fodder for me anyday.

[SquirmyBurrito]

-You actually show it in your exemple, it's powercreep when the game content doesn't match the new power level, and it's a form of power progression but powercreep is powercreep.

 

Basically you don't know about powercreep?

these are some elements for what came out as power creep

First, its essentially related to online game/ game that get updated (due to circumstances, the word might have existed before but its meaning from then shouldn't be the same anymore, is the kind of thing that could have happened)

"new weapons" get added and make the old weapons obsolete.

"new weapons" get added and make the content easier.

I can't give you a definition word for word but I do know that power progression encompasses quite more than what is above.

Or maybe it's power progression where you've got the wrong definition.

 

-It's the same thing, I won't say you're agreeing to the situation, but if you add that technically something match their powers it goes to what you gave in your exemple, it's the reason which justify "that the power progression is acceptable" ; without endless nothing match the power level anymore, it isn't justified anymore, it's powercreep.

 

I'm not ignoring content to suit my argument, for how long ago it was said it should already be known, DE said themselves that they don't balance around endlesses (in a devstream? whatever), don't know if it were in the same thing they also mentionned a range of lvl numbers for what they consider normal or high content of the game.

 

-I wasn't sure but you said

which I randomly guessed was referring to how I explain powercreep,

Essentially if I explain things by giving the context that defines the word I don't think I need to provide anything to back what I'm saying.

But I'm still not sure that's what you meant.

If you were referring the previous underlined phrase then it means you were focusing on the wrong point

 

Can you provide anything that proves your definition is more correct?

 

And to prevent myself from having to continue with this tiring back and forth, I'm just going to agree to disagree. I just got back from work, I'm in no mood to give you the kind of response that your effort deserves and I apologize for that. But I know if I don't reply now, I'm going to end up completely neglecting this post. I figured this was better than nothing.

Edited December 10, 2014 by SquirmyBurrito

[Harrycan]

It would be funny if the soma is rank 6 and the prime version is rank 4 or 5. The community need to catch DE ATTENTION as I don't see any of the prime time or Dev Stream mention about the balancing the prime weapons in term of mastery rank. It's ridiculous that a rank 4 weapon is more powerful than most other weapons at higher rank. People with rank 4 or 5 holding the boltor prime, owning everything and after a few months, drop the game because they get bored. This is killing the game if DE keep release prime weapons with low mastery ranks. 

[WhiskeyGolf]

The funny and ironic thing is that the Boltor Primewill still do more damage over 200 rounds compared to the Soma Prime.(Okay fine that's a Soma standing in for Soma Prime. :/)

 

I did some calculations, using the builds I linked above, and the following assumptions:

 

1. Soma Prime Crit Rate & Crit Damage is same as Soma (i.e. 30% / 3.0x).

2. Soma Prime base damage is 12.

3. My calculations do not factor in Multishot.

 

With the above builds, damage per shot for Soma Prime and Boltor Prime looks something like:

 

Soma Prime

Soma Prime base physical = 12 + (1+ 1.65) = 31.8

Soma Prime Elemental: 180%

Soma Prime damage per normal round = 31.8 + [(31.8 * (1 + 1.8) ] = 120.84.

Some Prime damage per critical round = 120.84 * 8.4 = 1014.72

 

Boltor Prime

Boltor Prime base Physical = 55 * (1 + 1.65) = 145.75

Boltor Prime Elemental = 330%

Boltor Prime Damage per normal round = 145.75 + [145.75 * (1 + 3.3)] = 772.47

Boltor Prime damage per Critical round = 772.47 * 2.0 = 1544.95.

 

 

Assuming therefore that Soma Prime's 75% crit means that 150 out of 200 rounds will crit:

150 crit rounds: 1014.72 * 150 = 152208

50 Normal rounds: 120.84 * 50 = 6042
Total Damage = 158250.

Assuming that Boltor Prime's 5% crit rate means that 10 out of 200 rounds will crit:

 

10 crit rounds: 1544.95 * 10 = 15449.5

190 normal rounds: 772.47 * 190 = 146769.3

Total Damage = 162218.8

 

This means that over an equal number of rounds (200 in this case), the Boltor should do 2.5% more damage than the Soma Prime. Purely on the numbers. This is ignoring several other factors not present on paper:

 

1. Soma Prime will probably be hitscan, and thus inherently more accurate than Boltor Prime, so more rounds will hit the target.
2. Soma Prime's 200 round mag, as opposed to Boltor Prime's 60 round mag, means that Soma Prime will spend 0 seconds reloading over 200 rounds; Boltor Prime will need to spend 9.6 seconds reloading (4 x 2.4 second reload).
3. Soma Prime will have a proc chance of 34%, same as Boltor Prime, but this is more significant if more rounds are hitting the target.
4. On the other hand, you can load Shred onto Boltor Prime and use that to shred mobs; my Soma build is oriented more for damage to support a Nova and is thus more of a single target weapon.

 

Also, I would have just been happy enough with Soma Prime if they'd made the crit 35%, like the old pre nerf Soma (Soma before Damage 2.0 was 35% and had tighter spread, less recoil and better accuraccy).

[WhiskeyGolf]

Also, I find all of this whining about overpowered weapons to be annoying. The weapons and warframes are OP, yes, because that's the whole point.

 

Warframe is about being a badass murderhobo space ninja tenno who has no fornications to provide, the Tenno is like an elemental force of nature that shows up and kills everything it sees in pursuit of loot. It's like if you take a modern M1A2 Abrams tank back to WW1 and it utterly curbstomps everything before it.

[Xana_Skullsunder]

Also, I find all of this whining about overpowered weapons to be annoying. The weapons and warframes are OP, yes, because that's the whole point.

 

Warframe is about being a badass murderhobo space ninja tenno who has no fornications to provide, the Tenno is like an elemental force of nature that shows up and kills everything it sees in pursuit of loot. It's like if you take a modern M1A2 Abrams tank back to WW1 and it utterly curbstomps everything before it.

 

Not everyone wants that, though. Wiping a map is fun for me sometimes, but other times it's just boring. I don't want WF to be boring.

[WhiskeyGolf]

Not everyone wants that, though. Wiping a map is fun for me sometimes, but other times it's just boring. I don't want WF to be boring.

Fair enough.

 

I admit, there are days when I deliberately take suboptimal weapons out just because I like them and want to have fun, like my Karak or Buzlok. :p

 

But even the Boltor Prime starts to have trouble around 20:01 in Void Survival, so I'm not going to say no to potentially more powerful guns that will keep me alive. ;D (One of these days I will exceed my personal best!)

Edited December 10, 2014 by WhiskeyGolf

[Innocent_Flower]

 

But even the Boltor Prime starts to have trouble around 20:01 in Void Survival, so I'm not going to say no to potentially more powerful guns that will keep me alive. ;D (One of these days I will exceed my personal best!)

That's more the fault of survival than it is weapons. 

 

(also, Boltor prime can take you past 45 on t4. It's only that your frame is super fragile at the time that stops me from going further)

[Azawarau]

Can you provide anything that proves your definition is more correct?

 

And to prevent myself from having to continue with this tiring back and forth, I'm just going to agree to disagree. I just got back from work, I'm in no mood to give you the kind of response that your effort deserves and I apologize for that. But I know if I don't reply now, I'm going to end up completely neglecting this post. I figured this was better than nothing.

You should probably do the same

 

Or at least lets agree that semantics dont matter and that the point is the game is way off balance

[MirageKnight]

That's more the fault of survival than it is weapons. 

 

(also, Boltor prime can take you past 45 on t4. It's only that your frame is super fragile at the time that stops me from going further)

 

This just illustrates two problems I see: How enemies scale and how just about every new weapon that's released tends to wind up being more powerful than the 'Frames that wield them.

[azmyth1]

It's going to be MR 2 and do 1.5 x as much damage as the Boltor Prime. That's the pattern.  Next prime weapon after that will do 50% more than the Soma prime and so on.

[sanj66]

-You actually show it in your exemple, it's powercreep when the game content doesn't match the new power level, and it's a form of power progression but powercreep is powercreep.

 

Basically you don't know about powercreep?

these are some elements for what came out as power creep

First, its essentially related to online game/ game that get updated (due to circumstances, the word might have existed before but its meaning from then shouldn't be the same anymore, is the kind of thing that could have happened)

"new weapons" get added and make the old weapons obsolete.

"new weapons" get added and make the content easier.

I can't give you a definition word for word but I do know that power progression encompasses quite more than what is above.

Or maybe it's power progression where you've got the wrong definition.

 

-It's the same thing, I won't say you're agreeing to the situation, but if you add that technically something match their powers it goes to what you gave in your exemple, it's the reason which justify "that the power progression is acceptable" ; without endless nothing match the power level anymore, it isn't justified anymore, it's powercreep.

 

I'm not ignoring content to suit my argument, for how long ago it was said it should already be known, DE said themselves that they don't balance around endlesses (in a devstream? whatever), don't know if it were in the same thing they also mentionned a range of lvl numbers for what they consider normal or high content of the game.

 

-I wasn't sure but you said

which I randomly guessed was referring to how I explain powercreep,

Essentially if I explain things by giving the context that defines the word I don't think I need to provide anything to back what I'm saying.

But I'm still not sure that's what you meant.

If you were referring the previous underlined phrase then it means you were focusing on the wrong point

it is still debatable, the reason i say this and tbh you can ask squirmy we never have agreed before, is what can you use to judge or what benchmark is used to judge a weapon's worth vs content. there is none, as a weapon can perform with a catalyst or without, with x number of forma or with none, sure some weapons seem op but that is after dumping a catalyst and maybe on average 4-5 forma on it. so that is the first issue there is no set benchmark to determine at what stage is a weapon balanced or relevant to content. the other thing is we all know de says they "balance" around their preset of wave 30 and minute 40, ok fine, but what alternatives have they offered in terms of content and i mean gameplay content to appease players otherwise. pvp is lackluster, archwing is the exact same missions you play in a normal map, the game lore to offer players something or a reason to progress is almost nonexistent, note i am not bashing de in anyway, i do respect their efforts and i can say this is one of the few games i stuck around for over a year and a half playing. not to mention the whole syndicate rep system actually pushes a player to do more long/infinite runs rather than short low turn over missions. there is room for these seemingly "op" weapons or what people claim to be op, but the problem is structuring to make it a part of progression, a boltor prime other than prime access should never be lower than a mr10 rank, never but it does have a place in the game. make it relevant to the people who play the content as a progression reward both in the game and a power progression. you would more find the higher ranked people to be the ones who would go to the long infinite runs as they have basically been there done that.

[Last_0rder]

Yes...at least MASTERY LOCK it!

 

I will literally cry if I start seeing MR2s with Soma Prime one hitting everything >.>

(already happens with the damn Boltor)

How about mastery rank 18 to unlock it?  

Edited December 11, 2014 by Last_0rder

[Davoodoo]

-snip-

Thats some really bad builds you have there.

You skipped heavy caliber, you skipped rate of fire mod, you didnt use 90% elementals but thats all ok.

 

Soma will do less dmg per bullet than boltor p, but soma spews bullets at 1.5 times rate of boltor, thats where difference is.

[sanj66]

Thats some really bad builds you have there.

You skipped heavy caliber, you skipped rate of fire mod, you didnt use 90% elementals but thats all ok.

 

Soma will do less dmg per bullet than boltor p, but soma spews bullets at 1.5 times rate of boltor, thats where difference is.

omg i just looked at the builds, though i must say i go the traditional way and not use rof on my soma, i tend to lean at more damage per shot that per second as i generally take my headshots with it taking advantage of the accuracy and weapon type, hitscan, of the soma.

[Davoodoo]

omg i just looked at the builds, though i must say i go the traditional way and not use rof on my soma, i tend to lean at more damage per shot that per second as i generally take my headshots with it taking advantage of the accuracy and weapon type, hitscan, of the soma.

You take advantage of accuracy even with shred or speed trigger, recoil is nonexistent on 99% of warframe weapons and soma is one of them, only place where i really feel the kick is grakata with all rof mods.

Edited December 11, 2014 by Davoodoo

[Mokkania]

And to prevent myself from having to continue with this tiring back and forth, I'm just going to agree to disagree. I just got back from work, I'm in no mood to give you the kind of response that your effort deserves and I apologize for that. But I know if I don't reply now, I'm going to end up completely neglecting this post. I figured this was better than nothing.

Was going to say the same thing instead of my last post but well... Maybe another time, another life. No worries.

 

Or at least lets agree that semantics dont matter and that the point is the game is way off balance

 

---- cut

There is the issue of "relative speaking"(not the right words) but it's a wall of text and I'm not up for it at the moment.

[Azawarau]

Was going to say the same thing instead of my last post but well... Maybe another time, another life. No worries.

 

 

There is the issue of "relative speaking"(not the right words) but it's a wall of text and I'm not up for it at the moment.

Ive had that feeling

 

Still

 

There are more important things to discuss such as

 

 

Apparently, datamining has determined that the Soma Prime only really adds stat chance, higher base damage, larger magazine, and larger ammo reserve size.

 

 

Id like to have this confirmed

[Mokkania]

there's something funny in the quote

 

only

Well I'm not seeing the numbers, maybe it's okay............

[Liverslices]

Id like to have this confirmed

Just pointing out that it is against the Terms of Use to datamine, and the mods dont like it.

 

Careful....

[Azawarau]

Just pointing out that it is against the Terms of Use to datamine, and the mods dont like it.

 

Careful....

I suppose so

 

Still its a hopeful sign

[Davoodoo]

Just pointing out that it is against the Terms of Use to datamine, and the mods dont like it.

 

Careful....

Breaking encryption is against terms of use, but i couldnt find anything about datamining itself in terms of use.

[WhiskeyGolf]

It's going to be MR 2 and do 1.5 x as much damage as the Boltor Prime. That's the pattern.  Next prime weapon after that will do 50% more than the Soma prime and so on.

Actually, based on my calcs, which are based on the datamined figures for Soma Prime, Boltor Prime still does more damage, albeit 2.5% more. :p

 

 

Thats some really bad builds you have there.

You skipped heavy caliber, you skipped rate of fire mod, you didnt use 90% elementals but thats all ok.

 

Soma will do less dmg per bullet than boltor p, but soma spews bullets at 1.5 times rate of boltor, thats where difference is.

 

I don't have Heavy Caliber. Not for lack of farming or looking around on Trading Chat. D:

 

I also prefer to use the elemental/status mods since I prefer to be getting some fairly regular procs to liven up my life. ;D

 

That said, even ignoring Soma Prime's rate of fire superiority, as I also noted it's going to be easier to hit with. :p

 

Depending on what I would be doing, I would swap Hammer Shot with Shred for the punch through and ROF+, but since I've been on a Nova & Soma kick recently, I figure that the increase in damage compensates for the lack of punchthrough and ROF, since I'm relying on Molecular Prime to kill things. XD

 

 

You take advantage of accuracy even with shred or speed trigger, recoil is nonexistent on 99% of warframe weapons and soma is one of them, only place where i really feel the kick is grakata with all rof mods.

This is true to a certain degree. All automatic weapons have some form of recoil and spread, but Soma's recoil is quite tolerable even on full automatic fire (Karak is also good for that).

[Doothers]

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Boltor_Prime

 

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Boltor

 

Mastery Rank differences, normal is MR2 and Prime is MR0. Keep it exclusive to PA buyers? Sure. But lock it for everyone else at something higher, if Boltor P was at say 8 or something for non PA buyers then it would be fine IMO :/

 

Really?... Prime weapons need mastery locked for sure, I do agree with that.. But keeping some items exclusive to a group of player who spent money to support the game (which isn't abad thing) is another story, that takes away from the concept of FREE TO PLAY! I personally wouldn't play this game if everything couldn't be obtained through means with out spending a dime. That's the worst idea possible IMO

 

[sanj66]

Really?... Prime weapons need mastery locked for sure, I do agree with that.. But keeping some items exclusive to a group of player who spent money to support the game (which isn't abad thing) is another story, that takes away from the concept of FREE TO PLAY! I personally wouldn't play this game if everything couldn't be obtained through means with out spending a dime. That's the worst idea possible IMO

did you read what he said? he never said to make it exclusive to on pa players, he said make the mastery lock non existent to only pa players, and those who farm it it would be mr8.