Bring Back Iron Skin Face Tanking

[LazyKnight]

Actually the way that would work is 95%-75% first because you said MORE effective, which should only include the percentage increase above the original value which would be 20%.  

 

20% increase does not equal five times more effective it equates to roughly 1.5 x as effective, roughly mind you, but no where near 5x. At 5x as effective you would suffer 0 damage under all instances and would potentially even heal from damage suffered if they were to implement such mechanics.

 

1-.75=a

1-.95=b

a/b=c

 

Math would be .25/.05=5

 

5-1=4x

 

if you compare someone with 75% damage reduction to that of 95%.

 

If target 'a' has 75% damage reduction and 1000 health, it would take 4,000 damage to kill target 'a'

 

If a target 'b' has 95% damage reduction and 1000 heath, it would take 20,000 damage to kill target 'b'

 

Target 'b' can take 16,000 more damage before death.

Edited February 5, 2015 by LazyKnight

[RealPandemonium]

Got shield flux after two transmutations. All you really need is the stuff you find on apollodorus.

The real question is why go through the trouble for a bandaid mod that's not even that useful?  Stamina is trivially replenished by backing off of combat for a few seconds.  It certainly opens up a new style of play to an extent but it's ultimately not a gamebreaker.

Edited February 5, 2015 by RealPandemonium

[(PSN)theelix]

The real question is why go through the trouble for a bandaid mod that's not even that useful?  Stamina is trivially replenished by backing off of combat for a few seconds.  It certainly opens up a new style of play to an extent but it's ultimately not a gamebreaker.

Considering shield flux, with the right build, allows for unlimited energy... I'd say yes.

[(PSN)theelix]

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/396031-rhino-is-not-a-tank-at-all-here-is-how-to-make-him-one/

 

Roar can never do that unless they add inviciniblity for it's duration.

If you're at a T4 or something, you'd get absolutely rekt. You'd cast and you wouldn't have a revive animation, you'd just be dead.

[Holeypaladin]

 

 

1-.75=a

1-.95=b

a/b=c

 

Math would be .25/.05=5

 

5-1=4x

 

if you compare someone with 75% damage reduction to that of 95%.

 

If target 'a' has 75% damage reduction and 1000 health, it would take 4,000 damage to kill target 'a'

 

If a target 'b' has 95% damage reduction and 1000 heath, it would take 20,000 damage to kill target 'b'

 

Target 'b' can take 16,000 more damage before death.

 

This is an example of how the 30% power strength increase by a single Intensify mod increases the effective health of Eclipse exponentially when in the shadows, rather than linearly like it applies to most other powers.  Shatter shield is a similar exponential increase, only it has base 80% rather than base 75%.

 

Summary:

Iron skin scales linearly = not very effective at high levels

Shatter shield, mirage scale exponentially = extremely effective at high levels

Unless Iron Skin can provide 20,000 EHP like eclipse and shatter shield, Rhino can't even hope to have the same sort of damage reduction

[(PSN)MoRockaPDX]

I face tank with Banshee via Silence just fine. Pretty sure you can face tank with Rhino, just not forever.

[Rhaenxys]

Incorrect.

 

Valkyr is nowhere near the first frame to be focused on melee.  There have been several before her designed with powers to greatly improve their melee abilities.

 

Volt, for example, is a melee frame.  It may not be his only purpose, but with his Speed power, he can close the gap to the enemy almost instantly, and speed also provides a bonus to melee attack speed.  This is his "potent alternative to gunplay".

 

Excalibur has a melee theme, being named after a legendary sword, but unfortunately his kit does not really show this except for the slash dash ability.  He needs a rework in my opinion

 

Ash and Loki are primarily melee frames.  Ash quite obviously has a melee focused build, due to his fourth power, and loki as well can nullify the ranged abilities of his opponents.  But their main melee power is in their invisibility, as it grants sneak attack damage modifiers to all melee attacks to double their damage at melee.

 

As for hysteria... even without the invulnerability, or without any sort of additional damage resistance whatsoever... the life drain aspect is enough to keep her alive indefinitely.  Are you aware of the difference between 75% DR and 95% DR?  75% is broken enough, but 95% is FIVE TIMES the effectiveness of 75%.  That's really no different from invulnerability.  If any frames are going to be given crazy high DR like 95%, Rhino should be one of them.  But since no one wants iron skin to provide 95% DR, there's no reason for anyone else to have it either.  The reason that shatter shield and eclipse DR shouldn't scale to power strength is instead of scaling linearly like all other powers, they scale up to infinity.

Having a melee speed buff does not make a frame to be called "focused on melee" you have to take stats and all abilities into account.

 

Yeah Volt haves a melee speed buff, useful in low-medium difficulty but his armor is just patheticaly low to take the risk of close combat, he also has his shield as a ranged option, so no, at least for me Volt is not a melee frame in any way.

 

Excalibur has a ranged ult/4 and again low-medium armor values with 0 survivability abilities other than maybe radial blind, her name is nothing to bring into an argument.

 

And yes, Ash and Loki are good melee frames with invisibility but they also have multiple ranged options and while Ash has great stats Loki is pretty squishy outside his invisibility.

 

Then now, compare Valkyr abilities, her only ranged ability is ripline and is pretty luckluster other than to pull heavy units and some mobility, Paralysis, Warcry and Hysteria are all focused in melee, there are frames who make some use of the melee combat but they also have ranged options and are not 90% focused on melee.

 

Iron skin just needs to scale with armor values so it will make a great use of ironclad charge augment, if you cant "face-tank" with this change, then we have a problem here because i was using Rhino the other day with an alt account and i have 0 problems into long T4 survival, even less than Valkyr because if i need some health i can simply use stomp and use lifestrike on suspended enemies and recovering energy via rage with ironclad charge.

Edited February 5, 2015 by Rhaenxys

[SIBjl]

First I apologize for not writing in English, so I used a translator, but I think it will be understood.

 

I think the mechanic damage reduction should be changed, in its current state is simply broken. I think it should be like this: an ability to damage reduction, based 50%, to increase to 75% should double its strength, and if you want a Dr of 87.5%, quadruple.
also frames that have skills with Dr scale with the following factors: durability, strength and health of Warframe.
now with rhino skin and iron, scale only with strength, its duration is inverse to damage the enemy. could be the whole game or just a split second, it is the strength and weakness of rhino.

I think it works better with some iron escalase skin health factor rhino, applying DR armor ferrite health, or which might be a value that is a multiplier their effective health.

who thinks that iron skin is overpowered in the early game, to think of any other skill based damage. even in early game not even need to iron skin, her shield is enough in 90% of the time, if not 99%.

Regarding roar, should increase its length to 20 or 25 sec
and rhino stomp, should be recastable, and duration of stasis affected by duration.

Edited February 5, 2015 by SIBjl

[Ronyn]

Having a melee speed buff does not make a frame to be called "focused on melee" you have to take stats and all abilities into account.

Indeed one has to take the entire frame into account. You also have to take into account how many things are currently out of balance with the expressed intent. IMO Volt appears to be intended to mix melee and spell combat enough to not have to rely on guns. 

Also to speak about Excaliber, Ash, And Loki...(also Saryn) when taking their whole kit into account it is easy to see why they are meant to be highly effective melee combatants. Each one of them has powers that specially improve their melee capability somehow.

But some of them need work on their stats or kit. And Valkyr is not 90% focused on melee ots more that she has a melee aspect to most of her abilities. That said she is only limited to melee during hysteria. Otherwise she does just fine at mid range and is actually very good there when modded for it. 

Shes also a strangely effective sniper class. Due to her extreme unilateral mobility she is actually better at it than the wide majority of the frames in the game. At the end of the day....

Outside of hysteria mode itself, Valkyr is no really more a melee frame than the others mentioned here.

They all just rely on doing it a different way. 

Some more tanky, some more CC, some more burst damage....

 

And lets not forget that since melee 2.0, the supposed Sword Alone patch, ALL frames are supposed to be capable of completing the games content in melee mode. Valkyr already does that extremely well since she gains more from the loop than anyone else.

Edited February 5, 2015 by Ronyn

[Ishki88]

Some of you people..I can tell are new.......and never played OG Rhino......

 

And let me tell you............you do not want OG Rhino back............excuse me Original Rhino if you don't know what OG means

 

Lets just say I'm SURE DE doesn't want Original Rhino back also........More than likely Scott will make some "adjustments"....but to sit here and literally ask for "FACETANK RHINO" is why I understand Scotts expressions on DevStream

[geninrising]

Some of you people..I can tell are new.......and never played OG Rhino......

 

And let me tell you............you do not want OG Rhino back............excuse me Original Rhino if you don't know what OG means

 

Lets just say I'm SURE DE doesn't want Original Rhino back also........More than likely Scott will make some "adjustments"....but to sit here and literally ask for "FACETANK RHINO" is why I understand Scotts expressions on DevStream

This

[Holeypaladin]

I don't recall any mention of iron skin in any devstream lately.  Did I miss it?  Pretty sure they've only talked about raids and PVP and how the rakta ballistica still sucks, but completely ignored Rhino.

 

I actually did play original Rhino, and at the time it wasn't all that overpowered because energy was harder to come by and it only lasted 15 seconds.  With the abundant energy and increased durations it would be a bit much, yes.  Which is why I don't ask for the original iron skin back... simply a version that scales as well into high level gameplay as every other damage reduction power in the game.  It doesn't even have to be better, just on the same level as link, shatter shield, eclipse, etc.

[Ragingkitty]

 

I really gear my valkyr twards hysteria, I very much love spamming it, I just love it. no I don't I hate the ability, I honestly thing it needs to be a toggle ability with a slow bleeding effect on HP instead of energy. I used to be all for her using a different type of energy based method. I wanted all her moves to be on a "rage" system and her hysteria on a hp slow bleed system. but DE does whatever they want.

 

but as you can see I have nothing modded for hysteria, everything is twards melee focus. intensify and blind rage, are for making her warcry buff better. increasing melee mowing speed. sorry but I'm not a trashy valkyr. and I used to fight a lot for her to be re-designed. but DE doesn't care. all they care about is shoving another frame down our throats and people love it, no one actually tells DE "hey why don't you stop designing frames for a bit and actually work on your game? actually give more skill sets to the frames already out? why don't you fix issues with the frames? why don't you try new things with the frames that are already out?" but if someones mention this, the whole entire community will get on you, because they want their ever so ground hog day content keep coming out.

 

I used to be very passion driven person about this game. but after I see them just throw frames down our throat with very little level design and just new weapons that don't really improve. this is just my opinion on this part, and if you call my opinion wrong your an idiot. because its my personal opinion you don't have to agree with.

 

but they need an overhaul on the current frames and make them more usable. they showed how many skills are used. on their main page, and its like cool. but how about you make your frames do something different for once? but anyway off of this anger train.

 

as you can see I don't gear my valkyr at all for hysteria, and don't say I play a cheap style. because I hate hysteria. I love valkyr more than any frame, and I will always be &!$$ed at DE for doing nothing for her play style. she is one of the last frames that can do god mode.

 

but with this skill set, I can still take damage and dish it out. and I can still over kill frames that have room clearing abilities because of valkyr being able to get into melee range and take damage.

 

EDITED: this post is directed twards Geninrising, since he has the balls to say I use an over kill god mode frame, and call me a hypocrite, when I clearly gear her twards melee and survivability and not twards her hysteria.

 

 

brand new build, and its using the most under rated skill valkyr has to offer, paralysis. basically I use the skill like a vacuum, and sucks them straight to me, and then I use the new syndicate skill given to us, to wipe the room constantly because if you can't do a finisher on them it counts as a stealth kill, and what happens when you get a stealth kill now? a lot of affinity is given to you, and what powers that skill? affinity. so I've found an alternative way to making her strong and wipe rooms.

 

 

Edited February 18, 2015 by Ragingkitty

[Holeypaladin]

I agree.  Valkyr doesn't need hysteria to be an amazing berserker melee frame with very high durability.  With her armor, she doesn't need shields, and has armor-based DR that exceeds that of a trinity's link when modded correctly.

 

Hysteria needs a rework, as does iron skin.  Occasionally some of the favorite framed do get reworks... like how Nova's m-prime was "nerfed" to be a whole lot more useful than it used to be.  But some of the ones needing overhaul most just get ignored.  Since Rhino and Valkyr aren't currently favored by the devs, they tend to just maintain their flipflopped roles and broken abilities.

[GhostMelody]

Face tanking is a thing, though.

Just not a Rhino thing anymore.

Valkyr, Mirage, and Mesa all face tank better than Rhino. And Rhino is supposed to be the face tank frame... hence why iron skin used to be complete invulnerability.

Just because you don't like to face tank doesn't mean there shouldn't be a frame for people who do. Heck, there are already several. Rhino makes the most logical sense to be at the top of the face tanking frames, but he isn't.

Have you even READ the codex entry for Rhino Prime? It goes on and on about how good he's supposed to be at face tanking. He's totally meant to be the face tank frame. But he isn't, because people keep complaining about how OP iron skin face tanking used to be, but no one seems to complain at all when face tanking powers are given to Valkyr and Mirage.

No rhino was meant to be a support frame that could tank, period

And because the community abused his tankability he was nerfed

Like I've posted somewhere on the forum before he was originally just meant for support tanking, not face tanking to the point of being severely unbalanced

I wouldn't mind a change to his iron skin that was based off of HP, shields and power because then that would force people to make the decision as to either build for for just damage and be squishy like you deserved to be, or build him more balanced where you can fit the tank/support role like the frame was meant for

No face tank, thank you for removing that DE diamond skin was too much of and over powered ability and personally the community is even lucky that radial blast was replaced with roar, it's a big improvement on the frame and if anything, like I said if the change should ever happen to iron skin to bring back his tank ability make it be more based on the frames per-existing tankability and power forcing people to build their frame well if the want iron skin to work well

And jus wait I'm looking forward to a valkyr hysteria rework too, having that ability for 1 min plus all the armor and rage, very unbalanced, how about complaining more about her instead of iron skin alone. She mos def needs rebalancing

Edited February 18, 2015 by GhostMelody

[Ronyn]

No rhino was meant to be a support frame that could tank, period - Like I've posted somewhere on the forum before he was originally just meant for support tanking, 

According to what information from what source?

Just putting "period" on the end of a sentence does not increase it's validity. 

 

And because the community abused his tankability he was nerfed 

If the changes really were the response to this alleged "abuse of his tankability" they did not have the desired effect. Because a "nerf" is not quite the result of the changes. Rhino was re-balanced in a way that he is even more powerful early game because there is no time limit on IS so it's even easier to have it up all the time. But he falls off late game where IS has trouble withstanding many hits from tougher enemies. 

 

 

not face tanking to the point of being severely unbalanced

-

No face tank, thank you for removing that DE diamond skin was too much of and over powered ability

No ability is meant to be strong to the point of overpowered. However "facetank" doesn't inherently mean something being blatantly overpowered.

Edited February 18, 2015 by Ronyn

[Muinocriz]

I'm still wondering why people are trying to make a shooting game into world of warcraft. Rhino is fine. I'm the type of person who uses what he considers the best all the time. Rhino is one of those frames for me. I have been in situations where I got gun downed super quick, but at least i knew it was my fault. The only ability I rarely use is rhino charge. And it's a counter for the heavier npc units when they're in range and the charge won't put me in a worse situation after using it. Other than that I use all his abilities and generally have a easy time using this frame. I seriously think players are just bad at him.

 

I have never once thought to myself that rhino was under powered in any shape or form. Iron Skin works well, and I don't have any power strength mods yet. He'll be even more of a beast when I do find some.

 

I don't know. Maybe I'm just a pro player or something. I doubt it though, so I default into thinking people are just bad.

[Holeypaladin]

 

Iron Skin works well, and I don't have any power strength mods yet.

If you haven't found any power strength mods yet, it implies that you're still doing some of the lower levels of the star chart.

 

We've mentioned that for low levels, iron skin is in fact too powerful, because the enemies don't deal much damage.

 

At high levels, however, enemies deal a ton of damage in a single shot.  Enough to remove iron skin with one shot, making it ineffective at high level content.  There are other defensive powers that are much more effective at high levels, like Link.

Edited February 18, 2015 by Holeypaladin

[sanj66]

I'm still wondering why people are trying to make a shooting game into world of warcraft. Rhino is fine. I'm the type of person who uses what he considers the best all the time. Rhino is one of those frames for me. I have been in situations where I got gun downed super quick, but at least i knew it was my fault. The only ability I rarely use is rhino charge. And it's a counter for the heavier npc units when they're in range and the charge won't put me in a worse situation after using it. Other than that I use all his abilities and generally have a easy time using this frame. I seriously think players are just bad at him.

 

I have never once thought to myself that rhino was under powered in any shape or form. Iron Skin works well, and I don't have any power strength mods yet. He'll be even more of a beast when I do find some.

 

I don't know. Maybe I'm just a pro player or something. I doubt it though, so I default into thinking people are just bad.

agreed with the post above if you havent found a power strength mod yet then it means you have not experienced much of this game and to weigh in and say he is good as is is quite invalid. not to mention the initial part of your post actually gives rise to the issue at hand if so he is op at lower levels and up at higher ones. try going with your set up into a t4 interception,survival or defence, the first bombard you see will 1 shot you and you team mates will have to drag you around and keep reviving you, thats almost a guarantee. also i have mained rhino for almost 2 years, i went through all the changes of iron skin except the initial iteration, i can solo a t4 survival etc but player skill does not define a frame as not everyone has the same level of player skill. not to mention scaling etc.

[Holeypaladin]

I'm getting the impression that iron skin will be completely useless in raids...

[geninrising]

I'm getting the impression that iron skin will be completely useless in raids...

Absolutely. This is due to the enemies starting at level 80 which means Ironskin is one or two shot off and in the case of a Bombard Rocket that likely results in death.

 

The only abilities in Rhino's arsenal that will be worth it are going to be Roar(minimally effective) and Stomp. Hard CC or CC of one form or another will be the only things of use. Perhaps a buffing ability but due to the whole armor scaling thing they may be relatively ineffective IF teams do not utilize CP properly.

Edited February 24, 2015 by geninrising

[Ronyn]

I'm getting the impression that iron skin will be completely useless in raids...

 

Absolutely. This is due to the enemies starting at level 80 which means Ironskin is one or two shot off and in the case of a Bombard Rocket that likely results in death.

Exactly. The usual defense against "iron skin needs to be stronger" is the old "It functions well enough on the star map and only fails in endless missions that the game is balanced around"...which made a reasonable enough argument to at least be taken into consideration.

Well now we know that level 80 enemies are THE current end game level. Now we can confidently ask for powers to be properly balance at that level. Iron skin sure as heck doesn't...and having a power just to survive one extra hit from a good enemy is just not good enough.

This issue is no longer a matter of debate. It is simply a fact that it needs to improve.

 

 

Hard CC or CC of one form or another will be the only things of use. 

Yep. One of my biggest concerns about warframes combat diversity is the over abundance of CC. 

We need a lot of other things to be viable as well.

Edited February 24, 2015 by Ronyn

[geninrising]

snip

Well it looks like DE is clarifying here what end game is. They should definitely ensure that powers are all relevant in said content. This should actually open their eyes IMO as long as they view this from the player's perspective although I'm unsure that they actually will.

[Bobtm]

Well it looks like DE is clarifying here what end game is. They should definitely ensure that powers are all relevant in said content. This should actually open their eyes IMO as long as they view this from the player's perspective although I'm unsure that they actually will.

 

The issue that then comes up however is;  What is relevant?

 

With this raid type thing being a "hard endgame" type thing, effectiveness of any ability is something of an issue.  Beyond that, it's not like abilities need to be necessarily balanced around lvl 80 specifically due to this.  They could end up focusing on making abilities "powerful" at an area somewhat below 80, so that they have already begun falling off by that level range purely for the sake of forcing the statistical type of difficulty.  How effective should an ability be at this stage?

_______

 

There is something I find incredibly strange here... it's actually something that has always sort of, stood out in my mind in regards to this particular issue.  The whole thing about IS being shredded in one hit is an odd notion given that the destructible armor amounts it provides are upwards of 2k which, in a fair few cases, is more than the total shielding and HP of other frames combined.

 

Wouldn't that mean that any frame who isn't Rhino (or Valkyr, Trinity (or Mirage in shadow (or Mesa against bullets)) just immediately and always dies in one hit forever?  That's a really short list of frames who don't just insta-die at that point...

 

Yet get to that level range without the use of such frames.  There's this odd disjunction here in my mind because of how that plays out.  If players can readily survive without the ability to more than double their EHP with the total accessability to refresh that roughly +100% on a short cast... how is that not particularly powerful?

 

Anyways I just sort of had to get that out there, it's something that has always bothered me about this whole thing.  With that ability alone Rhino has, at minimum, twice as much survivability as the long list of frames without damage resistance type abilities.

____________

 

So in regards to IS handling at that level range, what would be an appropriate level of survivability to be gained against level 80 or so enemies?  To phrase that in a different way, roughly how many seconds per cast should Rhino be capable of eating bullets with a single use of his 2 at the endgame level?  That is, more or less, what everything boils down to.  Finding an agreeable amount of survivability is at the forefront with looking at the mechanics behind it being the more fun thing to tackle later.

[Muinocriz]

By saying "iron skin doesn't need to be buffed" you are in essence saying "Rhino should be weaker than mirage, trinity, Mesa, and Valkyr."

 

That is simple logic.  Iron skin is inferior to all of their damage reduction abilities.  Therefore, Rhino is more fragile than all of them.  Therefore, by saying Rhino should remain where he is, you are saying that Rhino should be more fragile than all of them.

 

And it doesn't make sense to me why Rhino should be more fragile than anything when his concept is "slow heavy frame that is virtually impossible to kill".

No, that is not simple logic. That's you jumping to conclusions. Rhino is actually a very good frame. I like him the way he is. I don't want DE listening to a bunch of no bodies who probably never made video games before, no evidence to back their claims up, and are running on emotion over logic on what to do with their game.

 

Don't get me wrong, if they buff him fine. But if they nerf him later on because they over buffed him and he ends up actually being bad, you people better take responsibility by keeping your opinions to yourself because if it wasn't for the constant cognitive dissonance of the player base and their ability to project their lack of skill to play a frame unto the frame itself, DE would have left it alone.

 

P.S. The only thing me not having any power mods imply is that I don't have good luck.

Edited February 25, 2015 by Muinocriz