Bring Back Iron Skin Face Tanking

[LazyKnight]

 

The issue that then comes up however is;  What is relevant?

The current issue: NPC's damage scaling is far too aggressive and player health pools do not even scale high enough to deal with level 30ish NPC. This is always an issue, and only DE can fix it if they chose to consider it broken.

 

 How effective should an ability be at this stage?

The problem is Rhino and it's not just his IS. Even if raids were level 40, only his roar would be worth using in that content level. 

 

 

The whole thing about IS being shredded in one hit is an odd notion given that the destructible armor amounts it provides are upwards of 2k which, in a fair few cases, is more than the total shielding and HP of other frames combined.

The entire idea of taking damage has been a broken concepet, and the only way to not be killed by NPC, is either by outright invulnerability or CC. There is no way to keep pace with NPC past lvl 40, the scaling is just too aggressive.

 

Wouldn't that mean that any frame who isn't Rhino (or Valkyr, Trinity (or Mirage in shadow (or Mesa against bullets)) just immediately and always dies in one hit forever?  That's a really short list of frames who don't just insta-die at that point...

That's the new raid, get hit enter bleed out. No point what so ever to mod for health, shields or armor.

 

 

So in regards to IS handling at that level range, what would be an appropriate level of survivability to be gained against level 80 or so enemies?  To phrase that in a different way, roughly how many seconds per cast should Rhino be capable of eating bullets with a single use of his 2 at the endgame level?  

If DE buffed IS's ehp to handle level 80, he would be next to immortal in all content under that threshold. There is no way that I can give an example of a workable skill that can function with such a massive discrepancy between the damage of a level 40 NPC, and a level 80.

Edited February 26, 2015 by LazyKnight

[Grand-Dozer]

A damage reduction % is what would work for scaling. Like what old Ember had with overheat (which made Ember better at soaking damage than Rhino at the time). Somewhere in this thread I made a suggestion where Rhino would constantly regenerate shields even while taking damage and would gain a DR% while the ability was active. It looks as if this is possibly going to be what is done with the Dragon warframe instead however.

[(PSN)Mofojokers]

Lol i never understood that rhino is for noobs only. He is good but if i was to recommend a frame its gotta be mirrage for starters. Her abilities are easy and very op makes it good for learners i reckon.

[geninrising]

About the only way I can see to have IS be even remotely relevant in future content is to give it the enemy scaling mechanism proposed by an individual earlier in this thread. That would allow DE to tailor how long they want IS to be effective across the board no matter the content and allow it to differentiate itself from the rest of the simple DR abilities.

[Ronyn]

The issue that then comes up however is;  What is relevant?

 

With this raid type thing being a "hard endgame" type thing, effectiveness of any ability is something of an issue.  Beyond that, it's not like abilities need to be necessarily balanced around lvl 80 specifically due to this.  They could end up focusing on making abilities "powerful" at an area somewhat below 80, so that they have already begun falling off by that level range purely for the sake of forcing the statistical type of difficulty.  How effective should an ability be at this stage?

I'll answer that In simplest terms:

At the power floor a frame should be able to reasonably complete starting game content while performing their intended role. 

Power floor as defined by how strong a frame is right off the assembly line with no potato, no forma, no mods and only MK1 gear.

 

 

At the power ceiling a player should be able to reasonably complete end game content while performing their intended role. 

 Power ceiling as defined by how strong a frame is when potato'ed, and outfitted with the ideal mods and any required forma's to slot them. 

 

This is the core nature of balancing a game with vertical progression.

 

Therefore I would say that abilities (when fully modded for) need to be balanced around level 80 specifically because of that is where the end game is. Once a clear end game is established that is exactly what the players power ceiling has to be set to.

Really...What other criteria would a frames power ceiling be base don if not the hardest enemies we are expected to defeat?

 

 

 

There is something I find incredibly strange here... it's actually something that has always sort of, stood out in my mind in regards to this particular issue.  The whole thing about IS being shredded in one hit is an odd notion given that the destructible armor amounts it provides are upwards of 2k which, in a fair few cases, is more than the total shielding and HP of other frames combined.

 

Wouldn't that mean that any frame who isn't Rhino (or Valkyr, Trinity (or Mirage in shadow (or Mesa against bullets)) just immediately and always dies in one hit forever?  That's a really short list of frames who don't just insta-die at that point...

 

Yet get to that level range without the use of such frames.  There's this odd disjunction here in my mind because of how that plays out.  If players can readily survive without the ability to more than double their EHP with the total accessability to refresh that roughly +100% on a short cast... how is that not particularly powerful?

 

Anyways I just sort of had to get that out there, it's something that has always bothered me about this whole thing.  With that ability alone Rhino has, at minimum, twice as much survivability as the long list of frames without damage resistance type abilities.

But you see that is exactly the point-A tanks job is to take the hits that would kill the other frames.

If rhino can only take one such hit per iron skin he is ineffective at that job. Where as when Frost throws up snowglobe at the right time he can take several. There is a clear discrepancy between defective tanking and ineffective tanking displayed there between the two frames labeled as tank by DE.

 

What makes this all the more concerning is that there are a few other frames who can more effectively block take those hits for others

(Valkyr's hysteria, Trinities link, Limbo's banish and cataclysm, even volt with smart timing of the shield ability, and then mesa with certain attacks, mirage in some cases) than rhino can. That is strange as heck....Which is what Holy paladin has been trying to point out in his own way.

 

To dig deeper for a moment...

Your question is inevitably beholden to two other questions-What role is each frame meant to play? What are the roles in Warframe?

 

Let's say I am playing some other genre of game that uses role terms like "tank" and "support" like league of legends or world or warcraft...

In those games the same enemy onslaught that would unequivocally kill a healer, damage dealer, mage, or hunter...

would not kill a tank. In fact in those games tanks can often survive two, three, four or even more times the direct onslaught.

Why do I bring that up?

Well, in those games, the level of survivability that is FAR too low for a tank is often FAR too high for a non tank.

By that same line of reasoning, the fact that iron skin provides that one extra hit where other frames would simply die...

doesn't necessarily mean anything at all. It is not the comparison to make.

The scale one judges a tanks survivability is not the same as the one that judges a mages survivability. 

 

Let me put it like this-

Nekros can provide some red orbs with desecrate but he is not defined as a healer.

So if those red orbs aren't enough for allies to count on to keep them alive through heavy fire that is not a problem. It's just a nice addition.

On the other hand Trinity IS defined as a healer so if her abilities were not strong enough to keep allies alive through heavy fire that is a big problem.

The expectations of healing effectiveness are not remotely the same between these two frames nor should they be.

The role defines the expectation.

 

Granted, what moba's and MMORPG's do is not entirely applicable to warframe. Its worth noting that in shooter hybrid games where "tanks" exist (like Global agenda, Firefall, MNC & SMNC, Resistance 2 co-op, Fuse, and many others) the same rules apply.

Tanks can survive WAY more than what non tanks can. It's a prerequisite to their job. 

 

 

So in regards to IS handling at that level range, what would be an appropriate level of survivability to be gained against level 80 or so enemies?  To phrase that in a different way, roughly how many seconds per cast should Rhino be capable of eating bullets with a single use of his 2 at the endgame level?  That is, more or less, what everything boils down to.  Finding an agreeable amount of survivability is at the forefront with looking at the mechanics behind it being the more fun thing to tackle later.

Indeed. This is the stuff we should be asking and looking to solve.

 

 

If DE buffed IS's ehp to handle level 80, he would be next to immortal in all content under that threshold. There is no way that I can give an example of a workable skill that can function with such a massive discrepancy between the damage of a level 40 NPC, and a level 80.

 

You're right that scaling is quite aggressive...it needs to have better balancing. A smoother raising.

That said, it is not usually the expectation that frames strong enough to fight level 80's would somehow not bowl over level 40's.

It's usually just understood that once you're character is all buffed up for high level stuff they just walk through low level stuff. 

What we need are something along the lines of difficulty selection options for the rest if the games content.

 

 

About the only way I can see to have IS be even remotely relevant in future content is to give it the enemy scaling mechanism proposed by an individual earlier in this thread. That would allow DE to tailor how long they want IS to be effective across the board no matter the content and allow it to differentiate itself from the rest of the simple DR abilities.

Or just balance it for level 80 stuff and stop expecting a maxed out character to find challenge in low level content....

Cause as I have been explaining in this post that is just an odd expectation.

Edited February 25, 2015 by Ronyn

[XAN3MK]

I've only skimmed through this thread (it is a long &#! one), but I felt like throwing in some input even if it might have been mentioned.

 

One way that I think could make IS scale "flat" across both low and high end content, is turning the ability into refraction-like ability, so instead of having a damage soaking cap, it would be based around damage instances. Every damage instance will remove a charge, regardless of the amount of damage done to the target. That way, the ability won't make you an unstapable god on the star chart, while at the same time making you much more durable in the late game, since a charge will be consumed regardless of whether you've sustained 2 or 2000 damage.

 

The amount of charges will scale with Power Strength so you'd still need to invest into the ability to make it last a reasonable amount of time. Now, it is very unlikely that this will turn Rhino into the "facetank" some are whising for (I used to have a 90s invulnerability back in CB, that S#&$ was outright broken), but it will turn him into a sturdy support that can go in and out and provide consistent support to his team even in the higher levels.

[sanj66]

No, that is not simple logic. That's you jumping to conclusions. Rhino is actually a very good frame. I like him the way he is. I don't want DE listening to a bunch of no bodies who probably never made video games before, no evidence to back their claims up, and are running on emotion over logic on what to do with their game.

 

Don't get me wrong, if they buff him fine. But if they nerf him later on because they over buffed him and he ends up actually being bad, you people better take responsibility by keeping your opinions to yourself because if it wasn't for the constant cognitive dissonance of the player base and their ability to project their lack of skill to play a frame unto the frame itself, DE would have left it alone.

 

P.S. The only thing me not having any power mods imply is that I don't have good luck.

those nobodies here have more info and knowledge of the frame you talk about, hell its even shown in the past players actually have more info and versatility of game mechanics than the very devs than make them. rhino compared to most frames is a very poor frame, and guess what DE already listened to the wrong set of people and nerfed rhino iron skin 3 times already to the point of almost uselessness. DE nerfed rhino due to people crying about the frame yet sitting on a loki or trinity because thats just how stupid some people are they only want their favorite to be op. nothing you posted here made much sense tbh if you knew the history of the frame and game.

[RealPandemonium]

DE nerfed rhino due to people crying about the frame yet sitting on a loki or trinity because thats just how stupid some people are they only want their favorite to be op

Nothing should be OP.  "I want the cheese to be on my favorite character too" is not a tenable position; there shouldn't be cheese in the first place.

[geninrising]

Nothing should be OP.  "I want the cheese to be on my favorite character too" is not a tenable position; there shouldn't be cheese in the first place.

I agree 100%. Most of my stance on this matter stems from the p42w debate though. In truth there are other problems of this nature such as shield polarize and chaos , but for the most part it lands squarely on radial ultimates. Powers should never allow us to utterly remove difficulty from the game no matter what. I think that "cheese" could be alleviated 75% with ultimates being metered separately from regular skills. Then the devs would face minor balancing issues among a few other key problem skills. By doing so they could also buff ultimate skills through the roof to extend their viability(for skills that need a buff, op offenders can simply remain where they are). 

[sanj66]

Nothing should be OP.  "I want the cheese to be on my favorite character too" is not a tenable position; there shouldn't be cheese in the first place.

i agree but then the converse is all these other frames even newer ones they get the "cheese" or get to basically keep what they had disguised behind a new facade, yet nerf rhino into the ground. by relevance then why isnt there a harsher nerf on trinity? or loki the golden boy of wf? and the list can go on and on?

[(PSN)Mofojokers]

Rhino does need something done he is now better for beginners then shelved for end game.

[geninrising]

Rhino does need something done he is now better for beginners then shelved for end game.

The point is that per DE "There is no tiering of frames. Every frame should be playable in all content." DE has made the claim that you should be able to play any frame no matter what you are doing. We are simply trying to ensure that their claim holds up, and with the new raids coming this concern is going to be even more relevant.

[Holeypaladin]

Rhino does need something done he is now better for beginners then shelved for end game.

Yeah, I shelved Rhino awhile back because so many other frames are just better and more resilient, or at least more capable of avoiding damage.  Stealth is better than tanking right now since you can avoid damage altogether, and even without staying in the shadows, Mirage avoids most damage because the enemies shoot at her holograms instead.  Frost and Volt both have shields of some kind to block enemy fire for at least 5 seconds.

 

Between Ash, Mirage, Volt, and Frost, I really have no reason to return to Rhino.  And if the new dragonframe is as good as I'm hoping it'll be, it'll probably be my Rhino replacement.

[sanj66]

The issue that then comes up however is;  What is relevant?

 

With this raid type thing being a "hard endgame" type thing, effectiveness of any ability is something of an issue.  Beyond that, it's not like abilities need to be necessarily balanced around lvl 80 specifically due to this.  They could end up focusing on making abilities "powerful" at an area somewhat below 80, so that they have already begun falling off by that level range purely for the sake of forcing the statistical type of difficulty.  How effective should an ability be at this stage?

_______

 

There is something I find incredibly strange here... it's actually something that has always sort of, stood out in my mind in regards to this particular issue.  The whole thing about IS being shredded in one hit is an odd notion given that the destructible armor amounts it provides are upwards of 2k which, in a fair few cases, is more than the total shielding and HP of other frames combined.

 

Wouldn't that mean that any frame who isn't Rhino (or Valkyr, Trinity (or Mirage in shadow (or Mesa against bullets)) just immediately and always dies in one hit forever?  That's a really short list of frames who don't just insta-die at that point...

 

Yet get to that level range without the use of such frames.  There's this odd disjunction here in my mind because of how that plays out.  If players can readily survive without the ability to more than double their EHP with the total accessability to refresh that roughly +100% on a short cast... how is that not particularly powerful?

 

Anyways I just sort of had to get that out there, it's something that has always bothered me about this whole thing.  With that ability alone Rhino has, at minimum, twice as much survivability as the long list of frames without damage resistance type abilities.

____________

 

So in regards to IS handling at that level range, what would be an appropriate level of survivability to be gained against level 80 or so enemies?  To phrase that in a different way, roughly how many seconds per cast should Rhino be capable of eating bullets with a single use of his 2 at the endgame level?  That is, more or less, what everything boils down to.  Finding an agreeable amount of survivability is at the forefront with looking at the mechanics behind it being the more fun thing to tackle later.

this is not entirely true, base stats and ehp does not = total survivability, loki can go invis, and avoid every damage except dot damage from ancients and have a higher survivability. static values in this game like higher shields etc do not actually determine survivability rating especially when frame skills exist in the game. damage resist isnt a thing when you can have damage avoidance.

[Holeypaladin]

When a level 100-150 tactical alert comes out, all the sudden level 150 is relevant content.

 

Only Valkyr can tank at that level with invincibility.  You end up relying on invisibility and bladestorm to kill things, while Rhino has no real use.

[RealPandemonium]

When a level 100-150 tactical alert comes out, all the sudden level 150 is relevant content.

 

Only Valkyr can tank at that level with invincibility.  You end up relying on invisibility and bladestorm to kill things, while Rhino has no real use.

The alert was jokes.  We cheesed it with broken abilities, as usual.  Redtext even said as much.  Hilarious part is that my group used Stomp chains to cheese the mission.  In another run I used Rhino and IS was sufficient to keep me alive from stray shots, even without QT equipped.  

[Holeypaladin]

The 4 to win abilities my team used were... m-prime, cataclysm, irradiating disarm, and bladestorm.  I wouldn't call any of those abilities broken, they just don't have serious scaling issues like iron skin does.

[RealPandemonium]

The 4 to win abilities my team used were... m-prime, cataclysm, irradiating disarm, and bladestorm.  I wouldn't call any of those abilities broken, they just don't have serious scaling issues like iron skin does.

Breathtaking.

[geninrising]

The 4 to win abilities my team used were... m-prime, cataclysm, irradiating disarm, and bladestorm.  I wouldn't call any of those abilities broken, they just don't have serious scaling issues like iron skin does.

The abilities themselves are not what is broken. It's the infinite availability of said skills that is broken. Energy gating is a failure and needs a rework.

 

The "Cheese" comes from being able to spam in the first place. Quite frankly you could nerf all of the skills to approximately half their current effectiveness and with the infinite energy things would be just as easy if take 2x longer. DE is pretty freaking ignorant to not just tell the community suck this change and like it or leave(refering to a complete revamp of either the entire energy system or separately metering ultimates).

Edited February 28, 2015 by geninrising

[(PSN)JiggaJazz]

OP wants rhino to be a different frame lol, stomp and roar are awesome and rhino will always be the wall hugger that spams stomp and simply uses iron skin to avoid toxic auras in end game content

[trieuazn0]

ahh, the good old classic "Compare skill 2 to skill 4"

 

Why not Compare Skill 2 with another Skill 2?

 

OH WAIT BECASUE RHINO HAS THE BEST TANK COUNTER CC SKILL 2 IN THE GAME!!!

 

oh whoops, did i just say that? im sorry, yea i think its worth comparing the strongest skill available to a character with another skill that "Not" their strongest skill

[Holeypaladin]

Skill number is not a reflection of how powerful the skill is.  Many frames have their ultimate power as their fourth, but many have their ultimate power as their third.

 

If you want to look at frame whose most powerful skill is number 2... look at Trinity.  Yep, energy vampire is the most powerful skill in the game since it allows for infinity energy use and the spamming of powers.

 

When a frame is specifically designed as a tank, and their only tank skill is their number 2, then their number 2 skill should be their most powerful skill.  It doesn't matter that the number is 2, it matters that it's a tank frame and its tank power happens to be number 2.  However, Iron skil is the WORST tank skill in the game, not the best.  Who cares if the other damage reduction powers are number 3?  It doesn't matter, since they're not tank frames (except Frost).

[trieuazn0]

Skill number is not a reflection of how powerful the skill is.  Many frames have their ultimate power as their fourth, but many have their ultimate power as their third.

 

If you want to look at frame whose most powerful skill is number 2... look at Trinity.  Yep, energy vampire is the most powerful skill in the game since it allows for infinity energy use and the spamming of powers.

 

When a frame is specifically designed as a tank, and their only tank skill is their number 2, then their number 2 skill should be their most powerful skill.  It doesn't matter that the number is 2, it matters that it's a tank frame and its tank power happens to be number 2.  However, Iron skil is the WORST tank skill in the game, not the best.  Who cares if the other damage reduction powers are number 3?  It doesn't matter, since they're not tank frames (except Frost).

and you are correct, because rhino is not a tank, his a support tank. but i guess you are to thick to understand that

 

"Oh but his description says Heavy Tank blahh blahh" 

have you taken to account his description was never changed? the description describes the time where rhino WAS a tank, with his god mode iron skin, but then he gained more Team Utility.

 

Also, lets keep on comparing Valkyrs Hystaria "God mode"  with Rhino's Iron skin

 

1: Did you know Valkyr can still be effect by by energy Draining Effects like the Grinner lazor doors and Ancients? Bet you dident, becasue Rhino is not effect in anyway while iron skin in on

 

2: did you know Rhino's Iron skin is the only skill in the game that can be used once and let the player finnish missions while receiving > NO DAMAGE< in the game? even CC effect is nothing but Dirt compared to Rhino's Iron skin, Valkyr "God mode" can actually kill her if you are still surrounded but mobs, but i bet you did not know that. BECAUSE RHINO IRON SKIN BEST SKILL IN GAME!!

 

3: did you know Rhino can still use his Gun while Using his Iron skin? Becasue Valkyr can't and is limmited to the stats of her weapon

 

4: did you know that Hysteria's melee damage is hindered, based on the type of melee weapon you have Equiped? that means if you have a max Duration Hysteria at one min, while using a rank 0 weapon at a t4 survival mission, then you are stuck useless for that ENTIRE MINIUTE!!

 

ok, lets compare Rhino's Iron skin to other Warframes Defensive Ability

 

Frost : Snow globe, Great AOE shield with a slow, but its in-mobile while Rhino's iron skin can be used a a meat shield to cover allies, Snow Globe is also Duration+ HP + Power Range base while Iron skin is just Power Strength base

While Snow globe is a very situational skill, Iron skin can be used at all times

 

Trinity's Blessing + Link: These two skills have very shot Duration (Under 15 seconds with out mods) and link is only useful if you within 10m or so with another enemy, and you still take damage.

Also, if you are not linked with another enemy, you can get CC from blast, killed by lazors and Energy Drained by the Ancients and knocked down from lazor doors

Iron skin? pfft, last and entire game, Counters all CC in the game, and dose not matter how far the enemy is way from you, because it will still protect you, Can also last the entire match ( ie, not duration Base)

 

Mirage's HoM + Eclipse: Eclipse only works while under Shadows, but even then you can still Receive damage, so unless you are activly standing still under a shadow, Eclipse won't be protecting you from anything, HoM only Distracts bullets away from you, the mirrors don't block them, that means if a Bombard shoots you, will you will get CC into the Ground and possibly perma Stun locked, while these two are active, you can still be CC from anything, killed by lazors and energy Drained by Ancients  

 

Zephyr's Turbulence: it only Deflects Projectiles but with a big enugh power range, it can protect the entire team as a somewhat mobile But weaker snow globe, possibly the Only Deffencive skill better the Rhino's Iron skin (yes this is bias, ZEPHYR MASTER RACE!)

 

i could go on, but im getting lazy

Edited March 1, 2015 by trieuazn0

[Holeypaladin]

Have you ever played a high level mission as Rhino, ever?

 

Try that level 150 escalation match as Rhino.  See how long iron skin keeps you alive.  Compare it to how long shatter shield keeps you alive.  Then compare to how long link keeps you alive.  Then try it as Valkyr and see how long Hysteria keeps you alive.

 

It's a no brainer.  It's seriously ludicrous to say iron skin keeps you alive when compared to any of these other powers.

 

I don't care how effective it is in low level content, because low level content isn't at all challenging.  All I care about is how it performs when I really need it to perform.  The fact that you say "zephyr master race" means that you've probably never tried Rhino in the high level missions where he needs iron skin to tank.

 

Also, he is described as a tank in official videos.  Unless they're changed, his purpose is and always will be as a tank.  The fact that he fails in that role is the entire purpose of this topic.

Edited March 1, 2015 by Holeypaladin

[trieuazn0]

Have you ever played a high level mission as Rhino, ever?

 

Try that level 150 escalation match as Rhino.  See how long iron skin keeps you alive.  Compare it to how long shatter shield keeps you alive.  Then compare to how long link keeps you alive.  Then try it as Valkyr and see how long Hysteria keeps you alive.

 

It's a no brainer.  It's seriously ludicrous to say iron skin keeps you alive when compared to any of these other powers.

 

I don't care how effective it is in low level content, because low level content isn't at all challenging.  All I care about is how it performs when I really need it to perform.  The fact that you say "zephyr master race" means that you've probably never tried Rhino in the high level missions where he needs iron skin to tank.

 

Also, he is described as a tank in official videos.  Unless they're changed, his purpose is and always will be as a tank.  The fact that he fails in that role is the entire purpose of this topic.

Have you ever considered when the mobs over level 50 are no longer  scale to balanced for skills? and the only skills that work are ones without a limit yet

 

Also, 80% damage reduction from Link wont protect you much from the Escalation event unless you have a Very good loki on the team (Which is really rare apperently) Also, i have and Did do it with Rhino, and won, but that was becasue i used Rhino stomp with a max range Build.

 

BUT WAIT, RHINO HAS NO OTHER SKILL BESIDES IRON SKIN!!, SILLY ME

 

Edit: Have you tryed Valkyr in the last Escalation alert? unless within that 1min time frame, you can kill the 30+ mobs that are surrounding you, You'll die once the Duration is over Due to the skill after effect!! Did you know that? bet you did not

Edited March 1, 2015 by trieuazn0