Tactic Selections - Putting A Stop To Macro Farming, Rng And Grind Walls

[geninrising]

Ok on the defense tactics listing I have a few concerns.

 

Tactics Selections

Executions- Can we even shoot enemies that are knocked down? Also what happens if we knock them down and kill them via the knockdown attack?

Finishers- What if we kill the target on the knockdown attempt? Additionally this seems to be an exceedingly difficult prospect because often times the melee will just swing rather that completing the proper finisher animation. Plus could you imagine actually performing nothing but Finishers or executions given the number of enemies we face in defensive missions?

 

Maybe the above 2 examples would work if spawn numbers were altered to suit the tactical selection?

 

Abilities only- Would that not entirely encourage skill spam and be counterproductive to the attempt to reduce ability spam? I am entirely against this tactics implementation due to the fact that this would encourage said spam and actually rewards players for doing so. Bad idea IMO

 

Camping- Camping is what we are required to do in defenses mostly anyway. It seems this would be a better tactic applied to Survival however that would be impossible as one could not acquire LS nor could one feasibly camp without powers. Additionally one could not protect the pod at all with guns alone as enemies often ignore players in favor of shooting the pod anyway.

As far as any of the other tactics mentioned in your post are concerned I would be happy to play them as long as non damage abilities and buffs are still allowed.

 

Skill Kill- I would call this: Way of The Shinobi. The reason I suggest this change is to further emphasize the acrobatic and skillful ways that we can take down our foes. Additionally this is reminiscent of the traditional ninja's famed behaviors and tactics. I realize it does not as easily roll off the tongue but it does serve to represent the overall idea of Warframe that we are space ninjas and should act like it as often as possible to advance ourselves in the skills that are relevant to this theme.

 

Wall Running headshot- Woah there man. That is really really setting the bar a bit high. Perhaps it should be wall running kills with an additional bonus for the headshot kill?

 

As far as the rest of the Skill Kill listings I am in total agreement.

 

I would also suggest:

Airborne melee kills- This would further emphasize the acrobatic nature of the game.

Counter kills- When a player parries a melee attack from an opponent they are often given a finisher prompt. This should be rewarded as it takes a certain level of skill to perform with regularity.

 

Additionally I think honestly that in order to facilitate any stealth oriented gameplay we should also include a petition to DE to allow finishers to actually kill the opponent. There have been countless times when I hit a stealth finisher only to have the target get back up off the ground. It seems absolutely horrendous to me that we can sneak up behind a target and subsequently knock them to their knees then place a scythe over their throats and kick them ripping the scythe through their throats and neck without killing them. Or impaling them on the ground and have them get back up to continue to attack us. tl:dr Finishers SHOULD finish the target.

 

As an additional thought, maybe the required tactics would be the only things usable period in the given tactics selection as to prevent anyone in the party from being able to ruin the other users chances at the bonuses or playstyle they signed up for during tactics selection?

Edited January 31, 2015 by geninrising

[Soul.Fire]

I suppose because of how wide spread the deployed tactics and gameplay for this might be, it could be hard to determine a fair XP yield for this approach.

 

I thought of a few things related to this :

 

1.  Use this Tactic Option as the "General Default Tactic" and it has a locked in XP yield which all other tactics are benchmarked against to determine rise/fall in XP Multipliers however this has an issue.  Depending on how users complete the mission it may take a short time or long time so XP Multipliers could easily be manipulated.

 

2.  To fix the problem in #1 XP for this type of mission would be rewarded based on current statistics DE have for each node since right now each node is being completed by players with a Free-For-All approach.  This would allow DE to easily determine just how much XP they are anticipating players are able to gain from the completion of any given node.

 

 

3.  By creating a completion time-limit based on the average time it takes a player to currently complete the mission, the Tactic Reliance for Free for All would begin to go down as duration timer instead of a percentage and the rewarded XP would be based on what percentage of the timer is left.

 

 

DE may see Stephano currently and decide that logically with 3/4 points captured it should be taking 5 minutes for a wave to be completed and based on this going beyond 5 minutes would begin to see a reduction from their pre-determined Max Experience Points per Rotation.

 

They may also note that currently players are able to get around 50, 000 XP from a single Rotation in Stephano and decide that this seems a little bloated so they might reduce the XP Cap per Rotation to 10k.  This won't be a problem though necessarily so long as they improve how much Rep a player obtains per Experience Point obtained so it is closer to    2 XP = 1 REP

 

Or they re-work the cost of all Syndicate related content.

 

I think syndicates are a problem in their own right as they are a major Grind Wall waiting to happen the moment this is added in if XP to Rep ratios are not adjusted to suit.

 

End Game to me means :

 

-  You work hard to obtain it

 

-  It is something that injects replay-ability back into the rest of the game again

 

-  It is reserved for those who have reached End Game ONLY  -  no trading end game rewards to players who are not at the same level of completion.  End Game  to  End Game  Trading only.  (Mastery Rank Locked??)

 

 

Essentially it should be reasonable to play a mission and not see a guy that started 1 week ago playing Warframe running around with Syndicate Tier weapons and frame ability augments.  Being able to obtain all that Warframe has to offer a base level player within a 1 week timeframe seems too fast.  I'm not quite as proprietary about Prime Gear and Rare Mods as I am about something DE claimed was meant to be End Game Tier such is the case with Syndicates.

 

 

So maybe having lower Rep values wouldn't be such a bad thing.. IF

 

1.  Trading Rep rewards were locked to players either on the same ranking with at least 1 syndicate as the item you are wanting to trade with them.

 

OR

 

2.  Trading Rep rewards were locked to player Mastery Rank though that may just boost further grinding so the first option might actually be reasonable enough.

 

If you can make it to final tier on any of the syndicates you are able to then receive end tier syndicate gear from other players of the same ranking with their own syndicate.

 

If your highest tier with a syndicate is 2, then you can only trade or receive tier 2 syndicate offerings etc..

 

 

Thoughts, would this alleviate the issue or would this simply p%$$ you off getting rep at a lower rate and then being locked to trading it with other players who have unlocked the same tier or higher with their own syndicate?

 

Would this make Syndicates more End Game again or just another painful grind wall for us to all try find a quick way to circumvent?

I wouldn't want to get rep at too much of a lower rate than we get it right now, and there is an oddly low daily passive earning cap, altho weirdly the syndicate missions don't count towards it. But, I do think that syndicate tier weapons should probably only be tradable to other players if the other players have the same rank in either that syndicate or another one. That would make it so the items were still tradable but without breaking the game so to speak.

I like your ideas for skill kills too, especially the headshot kills. Maybe make it a kill per second, like the current speedkill except with the headshot/accuracy element to make it more interesting. Because as it is I do think that some of the mission affinity bonuses are a little too easy to get.

genin makes a valid point about a skills only mission type, now I'm honestly neutral on the skill spamming, because while yes it would encourage players to spam their skills, only one type of mission would do so, the rest would significantly reduce all types of gains anyone might make from said skill spamming. So for myself, personally I could either take or leave that type of a mission, it really isn't going to wreck my day one way or another.

I fully agree with the last point he put in bold though, it is really frustrating and annoying to be trying to stealth and have a random drop in who totally ignores the fact you're crouching and going slow and using your scope or whatever in favor of running through willy-nilly and ruining the perfect stealth run you're trying to set up.

Edited January 31, 2015 by Soul.Fire

[AlphaHorseman]

Abilities only- Would that not entirely encourage skill spam and be counterproductive to the attempt to reduce ability spam? I am entirely against this tactics implementation due to the fact that this would encourage said spam and actually rewards players for doing so. Bad idea IMO

Now now, I actually do like this option. Because it'll test me on going only abilities. Its encouraging people to use their powers, and if that means the entirety of the kit, or even most or two powers, I'd say that's still a good tactic. If they choose that tactic, so be it, they chose it. If they don't then that's because they don't want to do it. Remember that this is all optional, that players can choose which tactics to go under, so we shouldn't be limiting it simply because we may not like it.

[geninrising]

Now now, I actually do like this option. Because it'll test me on going only abilities. Its encouraging people to use their powers, and if that means the entirety of the kit, or even most or two powers, I'd say that's still a good tactic. If they choose that tactic, so be it, they chose it. If they don't then that's because they don't want to do it. Remember that this is all optional, that players can choose which tactics to go under, so we shouldn't be limiting it simply because we may not like it.

The point being man that abilities already give a player in FFA the opportunity to gain affinity in much larger quantity than any other way in game.

[Jax_Cavalera]

Ok on the defense tactics listing I have a few concerns.

 

Tactics Selections

Executions- Can we even shoot enemies that are knocked down? Also what happens if we knock them down and kill them via the knockdown attack?

Finishers- What if we kill the target on the knockdown attempt? Additionally this seems to be an exceedingly difficult prospect because often times the melee will just swing rather that completing the proper finisher animation. Plus could you imagine actually performing nothing but Finishers or executions given the number of enemies we face in defensive missions?

 

Maybe the above 2 examples would work if spawn numbers were altered to suit the tactical selection?

 

Well I can think of 3 options,

 

1. Small Skill Kill bonus could be awarded for Executions since I think they would be the hardest to do out of both choices (Executions and Finishers).

 

2. What you mention where spawn numbers are altered to be a little more suitable to the tactic

 

3. It stays as is with very high XP yield should you be able to complete the mission with a strong Tactic Reliance.  Would make them a lot more challenging than other options but not necessarily impossible considering a 50% Reliance still earns the completion reward.

 

Regarding Executions being possible :

yes we can, I often do/did it with Mag, I would drag an enemy to my feet and then offload the shot into their skull for maximum brutality.  A lot of AoE skills knock enemies down after the CC has finished (assuming the enemies were not completely wiped out from the skill.. but negative/weak damage is possible to build for to avoid that)

 

There would be efficient ways of knocking down enemies and then cleaning them up with weapons.

 

Vortex does finishers on all mobs caught inside the Vortex if you do the jump attack.

 

Ground Slams near enemies can often thrown them onto their feet but yeah it would take customizing a loadout to suit the tactic.

 

 

Abilities only- Would that not entirely encourage skill spam and be counter productive to the attempt to reduce ability spam? I am entirely against this tactics implementation due to the fact that this would encourage said spam and actually rewards players for doing so. Bad idea IMO

 

This is a fair point to raise and I considered it as well.  What I concluded in the end is that there are a lot of cases where abilities only will be really brutal (Corpus,Corrupted T3+ and Infested).

 

I'm just trying to think of a fair way to split this up.  Perhaps if it were first 3 abilities only plus Melee that would work better or are there still exceptions that would make that a problem?

 

I think in general the 4th ability on a frame is the "Oh S#!%" button and is normally cast out of emergency or to of cause macro farm.  I can't think of a scenario off the top of my head where first 3 abilities and melee could be exploited like that.

 

Then as a more fun approach you could have 4th abilities Only - so it's a spam-fest sure.. but it's also going to demand some serious energy consumption or very clever planning since trinity can't EV and players won't want to blow 50 energy pads for 4 waves of T4Defense if that's even possible.

 

 

Camping- Camping is what we are required to do in defenses mostly anyway. It seems this would be a better tactic applied to Survival however that would be impossible as one could not acquire LS nor could one feasibly camp without powers. Additionally one could not protect the pod at all with guns alone as enemies often ignore players in favor of shooting the pod anyway.

As far as any of the other tactics mentioned in your post are concerned I would be happy to play them as long as non damage abilities and buffs are still allowed.

 

Sure I can see that camping is a tactic currently deployed for Defense, so limiting it to weapons only and allowing players to ONLY get close to the pod to start the mission and when there are 2 or less enemies left alive from a wave (to get drops) that would be a valid tactic.

 

Not all weapons will work best for every single tactic, weapons with explosive capabilities or punch through can do a really good job.

 

I guess not all tactics will see players shift how they approach the mission and would still be a valid approach for that mission type.  These tactics would be more easy to complete and likely offer a lower XP reward since you could complete them faster than more involved tactics.

 

Skill Kill- I would call this: Way of The Shinobi. The reason I suggest this change is to further emphasize the acrobatic and skillful ways that we can take down our foes. Additionally this is reminiscent of the traditional ninja's famed behaviors and tactics. I realize it does not as easily roll off the tongue but it does serve to represent the overall idea of Warframe that we are space ninjas and should act like it as often as possible to advance ourselves in the skills that are relevant to this theme.

 

That could work well as a name for it too.  Perhaps there is a way to word it so the same concept is encapsulated within 1 or 2 words.  If not, "Way of the Shinobi" is pretty solid.  I thought maybe Shinobi Power but it sounds kinda lame (reminded me of power rangers hahaha.)

 

 

Wall Running headshot- Woah there man. That is really really setting the bar a bit high. Perhaps it should be wall running kills with an additional bonus for the headshot kill?

 

As far as the rest of the Skill Kill listings I am in total agreement.

 

Yeah I'd be up for that.. basic Kill whilst wall running earns extra XP

Getting a headshot doing that would earn 1.5x as much XP or something cool like that.

 

 

I would also suggest:

Airborne melee kills- This would further emphasize the acrobatic nature of the game.

Counter kills- When a player parries a melee attack from an opponent they are often given a finisher prompt. This should be rewarded as it takes a certain level of skill to perform with regularity.

 

I'd be happy for these provided that the Airborne Melee Kills didn't get to much XP reward as it isn't that hard to jump in the air and ground slam enemies killing them.. unless you mean you must be in the air when you kill the enemy with your melee weapon?

 

If Airborne Melee Kill = Kill enemy with melee weapon whilst you are still in the air.. that should get some good XP reward cause I would think it is really hard.  I get wall run headshots every so often but have never been able to do a mid air melee kill on a mob to memory.

 

 

As an additional thought, maybe the required tactics would be the only things usable period in the given tactics selection as to prevent anyone in the party from being able to ruin the other users chances at the bonuses or playstyle they signed up for during tactics selection?

 

That could be a reasonable thing.  Perhaps this could be a setting the Host checks/un-checks?  I'm trying to think if I would have it enabled or not and likely I would approach a tactic as follows :

 

1.  Run it as Exclusive Tactical Reliance mode

if I fail or do really badly

 

2.  Run it again in non-exclusive Tactical Reliance mode so I can at least get through it even if it costs me some XP

 

 

I wouldn't want to get rep at too much of a lower rate than we get it right now, and there is an oddly low daily passive earning cap, altho weirdly the syndicate missions don't count towards it. But, I do think that syndicate tier weapons should probably only be tradable to other players if the other players have the same rank in either that syndicate or another one. That would make it so the items were still tradable but without breaking the game so to speak.

I like your ideas for skill kills too, especially the headshot kills. Maybe make it a kill per second, like the current speedkill except with the headshot/accuracy element to make it more interesting. Because as it is I do think that some of the mission affinity bonuses are a little too easy to get.

 

True so perhaps a 1 Rep for 2 XP is fair?  When you say at a lower rate than we get it right now are you talking about Draco speeds or regular mission speeds?

 

 

The headshot idea you have sounds cool : For every headshot you get in a row with a small time break between them, this adds even more to the Skill Kill/Way of the Shinobi reward for the move.  Yep it would work pretty good for the accuracy one as well.  Timer would need to be balanced well so that you can't get an endless chain of accuracy or headshots too easily to get a monster bonus beyond game breaking proportions.

 

genin makes a valid point about a skills only mission type, now I'm honestly neutral on the skill spamming, because while yes it would encourage players to spam their skills, only one type of mission would do so, the rest would significantly reduce all types of gains anyone might make from said skill spamming. So for myself, personally I could either take or leave that type of a mission, it really isn't going to wreck my day one way or another.

I fully agree with the last point he put in bold though, it is really frustrating and annoying to be trying to stealth and have a random drop in who totally ignores the fact you're crouching and going slow and using your scope or whatever in favor of running through willy-nilly and ruining the perfect stealth run you're trying to set up.

Just to re-iterate regarding the skill spamming,  Since Gen's post, it made me reconsider the approach so it would be broken down into 2 different Tactics :

 

1.  1, 2 and 3rd abilities Only

 

2.  Ultimates Only

 

in both cases the use of a melee weapon is acceptable maybe?

 

As for the last point made, I'm not sure how you could prevent players from entering a game with Stealth as the chosen Tactic so that they are unable to start run-and-gunning.

 

There could be a few basic limitations put in place such as weapons that generate noise are not allowed into the mission, but then if you were running as banshee.. this is one of the perks to her ability.. the fact that any weapon becomes silent.  Simple fix might be that unless they are playing banshee or there is a banshee currently in the squad, they are required to select a loadout of gear that makes no noise.

 

 

Now now, I actually do like this option. Because it'll test me on going only abilities. Its encouraging people to use their powers, and if that means the entirety of the kit, or even most or two powers, I'd say that's still a good tactic. If they choose that tactic, so be it, they chose it. If they don't then that's because they don't want to do it. Remember that this is all optional, that players can choose which tactics to go under, so we shouldn't be limiting it simply because we may not like it.

 

This was pretty much how I initially looked at it as well.  It then became clear that in Draco, you can actually do 4 rotations using nothing but abilities very easily and this is one of the main offenders that has completely thrown the balance of Rep and XP out the window.

 

In my head I pictured players struggling with the challenge of finding unique ways to deploy their powers to kill enemies.. but with something like a Nullifier in the mix.. that makes things pretty much impossible unless slash dash and charge work?

 

I guess you could confuse enemies or mind control a target so that enemy attacks the nullifier maybe?  Ok so not impossible but a lot more difficult.

 

 

The feedback is great so far and I am really keen to see what other ideas you all come up with for the various mission types.  This is just the start as we work our way through the options I am sure we will find some really cool ideas.

Edited January 31, 2015 by Jax_Cavalera

[AlphaHorseman]

The point being man that abilities already give a player in FFA the opportunity to gain affinity in much larger quantity than any other way in game.

That's true for cases where we aren't clearing the node for the first time.

 

Players who are clearing the node for the first time don't usually have the mod setups or strengths that we do. Going through those missions is difficult for them.

 

Of course, Tactics come after, but taking away that option simply because we don't like it isn't how this should be looked at. The Tactics offer players incentives and an opportunity to try out other strategies to complete the task at hand. Having a plethora of them allows us to appeal to many different players and give them a challenge. Whatever tactic they choose, then so be it. We may not like their choices, but in the end, they're the ones playing the missions as they see fit in accordance with the tactic they chose.

[Jax_Cavalera]

That's true for cases where we aren't clearing the node for the first time.

 

Players who are clearing the node for the first time don't usually have the mod setups or strengths that we do. Going through those missions is difficult for them.

 

Of course, Tactics come after, but taking away that option simply because we don't like it isn't how this should be looked at. The Tactics offer players incentives and an opportunity to try out other strategies to complete the task at hand. Having a plethora of them allows us to appeal to many different players and give them a challenge. Whatever tactic they choose, then so be it. We may not like their choices, but in the end, they're the ones playing the missions as they see fit in accordance with the tactic they chose.

 

provided the Tactics have a balance on XP and are not exploitable to the extent they can be macro automated to resource farm .. and even then.. beyond 4 rotations I think players will struggle on Draco with Abilities only.

 

There is also the alternative I put forwards regarding the 1 to 3rd ability and melee and then the 4th ability as 2 different tactic options since players can do  FFA if they wanna use all 4 at the same time.

Edited January 31, 2015 by Jax_Cavalera

[Soul.Fire]

provided the Tactics have a balance on XP and are not exploitable to the extent they can be macro automated to resource farm .. and even then.. beyond 4 rotations I think players will struggle on Draco with Abilities only.

 

There is also the alternative I put forwards regarding the 1 to 3rd ability and melee and then the 4th ability s 2 different tactic options since players can do  FFA if they wanna use all 4 at the same time.

I think the RNG would have to be reworked completely to cut out the macro-farming, because I've done it myself, the whole reason being that if you just leave it up to chance and the random generators, that one thing that you want or need for a particular reason will usually fail to drop or show up for days and sometimes even months at a time of doing that mission regularly. It's not fun, and if I had a choice I wouldn't macro-farm ever, it's irritating and boring, but sometimes even a very good player can be reduced to it with the current drop tables and reward generators being as broken as they are. And yeah, I think if you tried Draco with abilities only you'd have to have a very good team, you'd probably have to know each other pretty well too.

I'm not sure what you'd do about FFA missions, since some frames have only 1 or 2 combat useful skills, and others have only combat useful skills and still others have only utility useful skills. For me personally I think FFA would be good where you're allowed to use anything and everything you have at your disposal whenever you need it, since if I'm using powers I hate relying on just 1 or 2, but in an FFA I would like to be able to use my physical weapons too, basically whatever the particular situation happens to call for.

[Soul.Fire]

True so perhaps a 1 Rep for 2 XP is fair?  When you say at a lower rate than we get it right now are you talking about Draco speeds or regular mission speeds?

Oh heavens no, not Draco speeds XD That's macro-farming, and about the only time I can even halfway stand that is when I'm going after a rare mod for either myself or a friend XD No, I mean normal mission speeds, the way most people I know usually play, we play our missions then when we're curious we look to see how much standing we've earned. Sometimes the miniscule gain surprises us, but only until we figure out that we already earned our max of the day. It's only a minor inconvenience really, but any lower and it might get troublesome. 

[Soul.Fire]

As for the last point made, I'm not sure how you could prevent players from entering a game with Stealth as the chosen Tactic so that they are unable to start run-and-gunning.

Good grief I must be tired, entirely missed this point. One way I could see this being fixed though is if you've chosen a particular way to play the mission, a particular tactic, then the only way someone would drop in on your mission is if they had chosen the same tactic setting you did. Essentially everyone would get a fair shot at playing how they want, a speed runner would get teamed up with speed runners, a stealth player would get teamed up with other stealthers and so on.

[iuki.]

Interesting ideas but all I see is people wanting to change the game completely into something entirely different.

 

Nerf abilitiy spam and all it will end up as everyone using X best weapon or get out.

 

How, exactly, is that any more exciting?

 

As to making stealth missions, that's cool but then it will be "Looking for 3 more stealth Lokis! PST!!" which again solves nothing.

Edited January 31, 2015 by fizbit

[Jax_Cavalera]

Oh heavens no, not Draco speeds XD That's macro-farming, and about the only time I can even halfway stand that is when I'm going after a rare mod for either myself or a friend XD No, I mean normal mission speeds, the way most people I know usually play, we play our missions then when we're curious we look to see how much standing we've earned. Sometimes the miniscule gain surprises us, but only until we figure out that we already earned our max of the day. It's only a minor inconvenience really, but any lower and it might get troublesome.

Off the top of my head I think we earn around 500 to 1000 Rep doing missions normally depending on the mission. Some low tier stuff can earn about 300 Rep.

Draco Style with abilities only earns us around 5k rep in 1 wave or 2k Rep approx if we are being mobile. 1 wave takes around 10 to 15 minutes at a guess.

Do these figures sound about right?

Good grief I must be tired, entirely missed this point. One way I could see this being fixed though is if you've chosen a particular way to play the mission, a particular tactic, then the only way someone would drop in on your mission is if they had chosen the same tactic setting you did. Essentially everyone would get a fair shot at playing how they want, a speed runner would get teamed up with speed runners, a stealth player would get teamed up with other stealthers and so on.

Tactic locked sessions are a great solution. If you can not already do so, it should also be possible to block certain players joining so if someone were a troll being malitious on PUBs players can protect themselves.

Interesting ideas but all I see is people wanting to change the game completely into something entirely different.

Nerf abilitiy spam and all it will end up as everyone using X best weapon or get out.

How, exactly, is that any more exciting?

As to making stealth missions, that's cool but then it will be "Looking for 3 more stealth Lokis! PST!!" which again solves nothing.

I understand that there is a lot of content to read, so when you view the OP and open spoilers reading mostly the Bold parts, this should help to enable a more informed response.

We are well aware of the problems and it runs deep into the underlying infrastructure of the game. The concept is actually aimed at à minimal change to the game with many..many problems being addressed at once.

Hmm the point you make about locking players to specific loadouts is a fair one to make. I think the preference for me is leaning towards PUBs joined via choosing the same Tactic.

An idea that would improve this is to have a menu where you can find PUB games. It would show all squads not currently full. It would also display what node and Tactic they are running.

If a squad completes an objective it is removed off the list. This would be infinitely more practical than trying to find a node with a spot on a PUB squad the current way we have to.

Edited January 31, 2015 by Jax_Cavalera

[Reaver_X]

this is why i don't read threads like this anymore, i can't stand seeing all the people who think they know what they're talking about and propose the dumbest idea's.

 

 

Primed flow is fine, and the game already has stuff in play to prevent spamming the same buttons over an over. corpus have their nullifiers, i wouldnt be surprised if the other 2 factions get their own in due time. Just chill out.

[geninrising]

Off the top of my head I think we earn around 500 to 1000 Rep doing missions normally depending on the mission. Some low tier stuff can earn about 300 Rep.

Draco Style with abilities only earns us around 5k rep in 1 wave or 2k Rep approx if we are being mobile. 1 wave takes around 10 to 15 minutes at a guess.

 

Yes those numbers area accurate. In 4 rounds at Draco it equates to approximately 20k rep with a 15% Sigil on. So in 2 runs you complete the daily allotment of reputation. Whereas a normal mission(non endless represents from 500-1,000. Thus spam farmers garner in the same amount of time virtually(accounting for completing 5 missions at 1k rep in the time of one draco run) 5x the rep others acquire. Now it is possible doing endless defense or survival to make that much in a single run however it requires 2-3x as much time and much more effort to do so.

Edited February 1, 2015 by geninrising

[Jax_Cavalera]

Yes those numbers area accurate. In 4 rounds at Draco it equates to approximately 20k rep with a 15% Sigil on. So in 2 runs you complete the daily allotment of reputation. Whereas a normal mission(non endless represents from 500-1,000. Thus spam farmers garner in the same amount of time virtually(accounting for completing 5 missions at 1k rep in the time of one draco run) 5x the rep others acquire. Now it is possible doing endless defense or survival to make that much in a single run however it requires 2-3x as much time and much more effort to do so.

 

Rightio so I guess we should be looking at a yield of around 500 to 1000 Rep per 5 minutes of mission time approximately based on Tactic Reliance being close to 100%

 

Would the idea of the Tactic Locked Sessions work as a solution to avoid random players dropping in mid game and totally ruining your Tactical Reliance?  If a player needs to choose the same Tactic Selection on your node to join the squad hen they would have very little excuse as to why they are attempting to sabotage the run.

 

What are your thoughts on the concept of having a dedicated menu where you can see what squads are running what tactic on each Node to make it easier for PUB games to be filled?

[Soul.Fire]

Rightio so I guess we should be looking at a yield of around 500 to 1000 Rep per 5 minutes of mission time approximately based on Tactic Reliance being close to 100%

 

Would the idea of the Tactic Locked Sessions work as a solution to avoid random players dropping in mid game and totally ruining your Tactical Reliance?  If a player needs to choose the same Tactic Selection on your node to join the squad hen they would have very little excuse as to why they are attempting to sabotage the run.

 

What are your thoughts on the concept of having a dedicated menu where you can see what squads are running what tactic on each Node to make it easier for PUB games to be filled?

Yeah, that's pretty much what I would think is fair.

 

I think that would be a major step toward keeping that kind of thing from happening, that and the fact that they would gain much, much less XP if they refused to play by the game plan they signed up for at the start would both work really well toward discouraging all but the most determined of trolls. Unfortunately you can never end it entirely if someone really badly wants to troll, but I think it would probably cut it down by a large margin.

 

I actually think that would be very helpful, and it would make it easier to find a squad you can enjoy the game with if your friends aren't online and you just want to run a quicky.

[Soul.Fire]

Interesting ideas but all I see is people wanting to change the game completely into something entirely different.

 

Nerf abilitiy spam and all it will end up as everyone using X best weapon or get out.

 

How, exactly, is that any more exciting?

 

As to making stealth missions, that's cool but then it will be "Looking for 3 more stealth Lokis! PST!!" which again solves nothing.

Actually, the nerfing ability spam, and nerfing anything for that matter, is what we're trying to find ways to avoid. What we're suggesting is each tactic is valid, just have a mission setting so anybody can play how they want without worrying about their chosen style being wrecked by someone randomly joining who may not want to play the same way.

 

It wouldn't be quite that bad, and people with a Huras Kubrow wouldn't have to worry at all about what frame to bring. Ash is another good stealth frame, and if you have a bow only killing enemies that are not being faced by other enemies can even make Mag work for stealthing, you just have to remember not to move too fast otherwise enemies will see the movement. Mag worked better before the final round of idiotic nerfs she got, but I guess my point is that if you're careful then you could theoretically make almost any frame work for stealth.

[Jax_Cavalera]

Actually, the nerfing ability spam, and nerfing anything for that matter, is what we're trying to find ways to avoid. What we're suggesting is each tactic is valid, just have a mission setting so anybody can play how they want without worrying about their chosen style being wrecked by someone randomly joining who may not want to play the same way.

 

It wouldn't be quite that bad, and people with a Huras Kubrow wouldn't have to worry at all about what frame to bring. Ash is another good stealth frame, and if you have a bow only killing enemies that are not being faced by other enemies can even make Mag work for stealthing, you just have to remember not to move too fast otherwise enemies will see the movement. Mag worked better before the final round of idiotic nerfs she got, but I guess my point is that if you're careful then you could theoretically make almost any frame work for stealth.

 

I'll do up more ideas for other Mission Types soon, just what you said in the last sentence got me thinking.  Would players be likely to enjoy a Stealth Tactic for Exterminates that required you to remain visible at all times (aka no cloaking or invisibility abilities including dogs, sentinel etc).  It would take a while to do an Exterminate mission like this, but the reward could be very lucrative considering the "Way of the Shinobi" (skill kill) bonus XP if you performed Melee Kills too.

 

 

Also, before we all get sidetracked and move to the next Mission Type, were there any other Tactic Selections that we should add to the list for Defense?

 

So far we have :

- Defense

☆ First, Second and Third Abilities + Melee

☆ Fourth Ability + Melee

☆ Primary Weapons Only

☆ Secondary Weapons Only

☆ Melee Only

☆ Headshots

☆ Impalers (Pin killed enemies to walls etc.) Radial Javalin doesn't count.

☆ Stun Kills (Enemy must be stunned at the time of death)

☆ Untouchable (Pod must not take any damage..xp is lost per rotation based on damage taken by the pod)

☆ Demolition (Explosive Kills Only Includes things like a charged Nova Antimatter Drop...must be shot at least once to count)

 

☆ Close Combat (Weapons Only - Defend staying within X distance of the pod)  

** timer between waves could increase a little to allow players time to collect loot and get back before the new wave starts so they are not punished unfairly.**

 

Ideas still under consideration but require further discussion

 

☆ Executions (Knockdown Enemies then Kill with Primary or Secondary)

 

knockdowns can be achieved via CC abilities like Pull etc as well as ground slams with melee weapon.  Players would need to choose melee weapons with low damage so they do not accidentally kill the enemy whilst attempting to knock them down.

 

☆ Camping (Weapons Only - Defend keeping X distance from the pod)

 

Concern regarding this options as it could be difficult to pick off all enemies whilst keeping distance to the pod.  I can agree that adding this one in would require more work than the other options since players would need some kind of feedback about when they are getting too close to the pod or when it is ok to get close to the pod to collect loot in between waves etc.

 

Not sure if this would be offered as an initial Tactic for the reason that it would require additional work to add into the game.

 

 

 

 

☆ Finishers (Similar to Executions but using Melee Only)  this will be better suited to Exterminates NOT Defense

Edited February 1, 2015 by Jax_Cavalera

[nofo]

remove or redesign fleeting expertise = ability spam solved.

[Soul.Fire]

I'll do up more ideas for other Mission Types soon, just what you said in the last sentence got me thinking. Would players be likely to enjoy a Stealth Tactic for Exterminates that required you to remain visible at all times (aka no cloaking or invisibility abilities including dogs, sentinel etc). It would take a while to do an Exterminate mission like this, but the reward could be very lucrative considering the "Way of the Shinobi" (skill kill) bonus XP if you performed Melee Kills too.

Also, before we all get sidetracked and move to the next Mission Type, were there any other Tactic Selections that we should add to the list for Defense?

So far we have :

- Defense

☆ First, Second and Third Abilities + Melee

☆ Fourth Ability + Melee

☆ Primary Weapons Only

☆ Secondary Weapons Only

☆ Melee Only

☆ Headshots

☆ Impalers (Pin killed enemies to walls etc.) Radial Javalin doesn't count.

☆ Stun Kills (Enemy must be stunned at the time of death)

☆ Untouchable (Pod must not take any damage..xp is lost per rotation based on damage taken by the pod)

☆ Demolition (Explosive Kills Only Includes things like a charged Nova Antimatter Drop...must be shot at least once to count)

☆ Close Combat (Weapons Only - Defend staying within X distance of the pod)

** timer between waves could increase a little to allow players time to collect loot and get back before the new wave starts so they are not punished unfairly.**

Ideas still under consideration but require further discussion

☆ Executions (Knockdown Enemies then Kill with Primary or Secondary)

knockdowns can be achieved via CC abilities like Pull etc as well as ground slams with melee weapon. Players would need to choose melee weapons with low damage so they do not accidentally kill the enemy whilst attempting to knock them down.

☆ Camping (Weapons Only - Defend keeping X distance from the pod)

Concern regarding this options as it could be difficult to pick off all enemies whilst keeping distance to the pod. I can agree that adding this one in would require more work than the other options since players would need some kind of feedback about when they are getting too close to the pod or when it is ok to get close to the pod to collect loot in between waves etc.

Not sure if this would be offered as an initial Tactic for the reason that it would require additional work to add into the game.

☆ Finishers (Similar to Executions but using Melee Only) this will be better suited to Exterminates NOT Defense

It does take a while, a very long while in fact, but this is how I got through the majority of my missions, even those that were not exterminates, before I got my trusty kubrow, and it actually is quite fun and it makes you feel like a true ninja. I wouldn't want to do that on some mission types, but this would definitely be something I'd like to see as an Exterminate mission type, and even wouldn't mind having it for Sabotge, Spy, Deception, or even a Capture mission type. Spies are tricky because you have to hack fast, Captures are tricky and you can't do it without being seen ever because those jerks run and yell and make a big fuss, but there could be allowances made for that I would think. It sort of brings you back to the basics so to speak, and it's a huge adrenaline pump, which I quite enjoy from time to time.

For most of those mission types I say bring it on, I love them, but the Untouchable one is a bit difficult and might turn out to be impossible altogether, for three reasons.

One is the fact that while Corpus can't ignore shields, they whittle them away in 2 or 3 shots.

Two is the fact that Grineer can pretty much universally ignore shielding altogether because all of their weapons seem to have a 75% or better slash proc chance

Three is the fact that, no matter what you do, how well you play, or how on top of everything you manage to be, Infested are always going to be able to poison both you and the pod. I know DE said they were taking the ability to poison the pod out, but somehow it managed to sneak its way back in and on several occasions in the last few days I've looked at the health meter on the thing to see it ticking down due to poison procs that weren't supposed to be there. Now, I'm thinking that's probably a coding issue, but it still happens, and the auras are surprisingly high range.

The Camping--Weapons only mission I have nothing to really add to your concerns because I feel the same way, you can't always shoot fast enough to keep them off the pod, especially if you like to use bows or sniper rifles.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Soul.Fire

[Soul.Fire]

remove or redesign fleeting expertise = ability spam solved.

Hmm, no not really. Besides, IMO Fleeting Expertise is a space waster anyway and I still manage to spam when I want to, even though I never use the thing.

[Jax_Cavalera]

Yes, it became fairly agreeable that adjusting a mod or changing an ability or even to go so far as to nerf all abilities would simply shift where we see this gameplay macro spam used and as sure as the Sun rises, we would again see players speed farming like this with a new technique again.

 

The problem of ability spam is actually just a result of the underlying cause and issues.  Remove the thistle, roots and all so it will not grow back.  Cut the top off only with a mower.. and you can guarantee it will grow back again and again.

 

 

I think Soul Fire makes a really good point about Untouchable, it will likely be too difficult to get a perfect score and even if it can be done it really is already part f the Defense Misson Objective.  When I thought of adding it in, the idea was to reward players who are able to go above and beyond completely obliterating every enemy in the map before they can even set eyes on the defense target and then leaving before things got too rough.

 

Not really necessary though so I am more than happy to remove that option from the list.

 

 

As for the camping, I'm still on the fence about this one.  Camping does somewhat imply the use of a bow or ranged sniper weapon and these really are slow to use and not that appropriate for Defense.  Beyond the implication, there would not be any weapon limitations so players would be able to use ANY weapons they feel could achieve this task.

 

I suppose the idea was to encourage players to expand their loadout of weapons in order to be able to complete the Tactic Selection, since RNG wouldn't be a thing, the need for unique functioning weaponry would be a way that DE encourage platinum sales perhaps.  (not that it is that hard to farm any resources in game really, yet players currently purchase weapons from the Market every so often due to the construction time delays)

 

Well if you all feel that Camping as a tactic needs to go, I have no objections removing it from the list.  Just let me know.

[Soul.Fire]

Yes, it became fairly agreeable that adjusting a mod or changing an ability or even to go so far as to nerf all abilities would simply shift where we see this gameplay macro spam used and as sure as the Sun rises, we would again see players speed farming like this with a new technique again.

 

The problem of ability spam is actually just a result of the underlying cause and issues.  Remove the thistle, roots and all so it will not grow back.  Cut the top off only with a mower.. and you can guarantee it will grow back again and again.

 

 

I think Soul Fire makes a really good point about Untouchable, it will likely be too difficult to get a perfect score and even if it can be done it really is already part f the Defense Misson Objective.  When I thought of adding it in, the idea was to reward players who are able to go above and beyond completely obliterating every enemy in the map before they can even set eyes on the defense target and then leaving before things got too rough.

 

Not really necessary though so I am more than happy to remove that option from the list.

 

 

As for the camping, I'm still on the fence about this one.  Camping does somewhat imply the use of a bow or ranged sniper weapon and these really are slow to use and not that appropriate for Defense.  Beyond the implication, there would not be any weapon limitations so players would be able to use ANY weapons they feel could achieve this task.

 

I suppose the idea was to encourage players to expand their loadout of weapons in order to be able to complete the Tactic Selection, since RNG wouldn't be a thing, the need for unique functioning weaponry would be a way that DE encourage platinum sales perhaps.  (not that it is that hard to farm any resources in game really, yet players currently purchase weapons from the Market every so often due to the construction time delays)

 

Well if you all feel that Camping as a tactic needs to go, I have no objections removing it from the list.  Just let me know.

I'm actually ok with camping, its the weapons only that might be a bit difficult. You could still get by with it as long as enemies are fairly low to mid level but when they get up around level 60 and higher a lot of weapons and even some prime weapons start falling off in terms of raw damage, they need the skills to help them along is all.

[geninrising]

Rightio so I guess we should be looking at a yield of around 500 to 1000 Rep per 5 minutes of mission time approximately based on Tactic Reliance being close to 100%

 

Would the idea of the Tactic Locked Sessions work as a solution to avoid random players dropping in mid game and totally ruining your Tactical Reliance?  If a player needs to choose the same Tactic Selection on your node to join the squad hen they would have very little excuse as to why they are attempting to sabotage the run.

 

What are your thoughts on the concept of having a dedicated menu where you can see what squads are running what tactic on each Node to make it easier for PUB games to be filled?

I am behind tactics locking 100% For example anyone joining a stealth tactics mission should not be allowed to equip weapons that are audible and join the queue. This would guarantee that they have no reason for ignoring the team tactic choice. Additionally I almost want to say that creating some team kick mechanic would not be out of order here as well for use on players that absolutely refuse to work with the team once inside in order to troll the teams affinity/loot bonuses. Of course that could easily be resolved by giving the bonus to all team members except the one that broke the tactics rules, however that brings to mind the idea that people would look to game the system.

 

One player rushes in front spamming 4 while the others chase. The three in back did not specifically break the tactics rules and therefore get the multiplier without doing anything at all from shared affinity. So I would estimate the best idea be a team kick mechanic to remove problem children from the run and lock them out for the remainder of the mission regardless of how much has been completed.

 

This idea of tactics missions also brings to mind an Idea that I had previously about an ignore mechanic to automatically filter out people that you cannot stand playing with from joining missions you are queue'ing for. That way players would only have t ignore an individual once and never deal with said person again. That could also help to weed extremely toxic people out of our general gameplay experience as a whole.

[RealPandemonium]

Hmm, no not really. Besides, IMO Fleeting Expertise is a space waster anyway and I still manage to spam when I want to, even though I never use the thing.

What do you use for energy management?  (This is not a combative post, I'm just curious to know how others approach modding.)