Tactic Selections - Putting A Stop To Macro Farming, Rng And Grind Walls

[geninrising]

geninrising uses logic!

 

Its ineffective!

I know, but it's necessary that I keep trying.

[AlphaHorseman]

BUUUUT this logic does not equal what occurs anywhere else EXCEPT end game which is not balanced towards.

 

So to clarify my thoughts. Why should powers absolutely trump guns in every slice of the game OTHER than the place that is not balanced at all?

This illustrates a clearly defined problem in the balance of powers which require no skill to wreck the entire portion of the game that is "balanced".

Your guns can wreck just as well outside the Void. Your guns literally have the throne of DPS that powers don't have. Cumulatively, an AoE skill may be able to outclass a gun for DPS, but on per target DPS, guns rule outright. ANYTHING we build for Void missions is going to wreck outside of it, be they guns or powers.

 

 

Paris prime hits 1 thing

 

Powers hit 30

 

Saying guns can compare is ridiculous

 

Youre literally making a fool of yourself

 

Its not particularly difficult

 

Its more a matter of how long youre willing to hold out

 

Classic Vauban VS infested solo with Ogris

 

 

geninrising uses logic!

 

Its ineffective!

Your power has the potential to hit that many targets. An AoE skill has the potential to cumulatively match or pass a DPS weapon depending on the number of targets in the affected area. A player has to be able to recognize how many threats are in the area and then fire off their AoE ability in order to maximize it's effectiveness.

 

Paris Prime does 40k to one target. Avalanche does 3k (maxed damage mods (excluding Blind Rage)) to each target in the area. That said, the Avalanche would have to hit 14 targets in order to match the Paris Prime for total damage output. You loose more damage with one Bow Strum to a single target, than you do if you have 13, count 13, enemy units in the area. Factor in armor, shields and health, and EVEN THEN the Paris Prime rules outright.

 

Oh guns can compare just fine. They rule in per target damage output, and (some) powers rule in utility.

 

Ah see right there, your example with the Vauban. Vortex is a good AoE/CC/Utility skill. It sucks in enemies and allows you to kill them. But oh look, Vortex doesn't do a lick of damage now, does it? Looking at your example, you've used Ogris as the weapon of choice. And oh look, now the Vauban can use the Vortex to give him the afforded and modded for AoE/CC/Utility, and that Ogris in his hands dishes out the damage. Oh look, guns and powers working together outside of the Void. Symbiotic by player usage.

 

That was a pretty useless example of how powers overpower guns, when each was used together to complete the task.

 

I know, but it's necessary that I keep trying.

Oh and this is not logical?

[Azawarau]

Your guns can wreck just as well outside the Void. Your guns literally have the throne of DPS that powers don't have. Cumulatively, an AoE skill may be able to outclass a gun for DPS, but on per target DPS, guns rule outright. ANYTHING we build for Void missions is going to wreck outside of it, be they guns or powers.

 

Your power has the potential to hit that many targets. An AoE skill has the potential to cumulatively match or pass a DPS weapon depending on the number of targets in the affected area. A player has to be able to recognize how many threats are in the area and then fire off their AoE ability in order to maximize it's effectiveness.

 

Paris Prime does 40k to one target. Avalanche does 3k (maxed damage mods (excluding Blind Rage)) to each target in the area. That said, the Avalanche would have to hit 14 targets in order to match the Paris Prime for total damage output. You loose more damage with one Bow Strum to a single target, than you do if you have 13, count 13, enemy units in the area. Factor in armor, shields and health, and EVEN THEN the Paris Prime rules outright.

 

Oh guns can compare just fine. They rule in per target damage output, and (some) powers rule in utility.

 

Ah see right there, your example with the Vauban. Vortex is a good AoE/CC/Utility skill. It sucks in enemies and allows you to kill them. But oh look, Vortex doesn't do a lick of damage now, does it? Looking at your example, you've used Ogris as the weapon of choice. And oh look, now the Vauban can use the Vortex to give him the afforded and modded for AoE/CC/Utility, and that Ogris in his hands dishes out the damage. Oh look, guns and powers working together outside of the Void. Symbiotic by player usage.

 

That was a pretty useless example of how powers overpower guns, when each was used together to complete the task.

 

Oh and this is not logical?

Powers have much more potential in every situation though. Lets not forget that seeint 15+ enemies at a time in WF isnt uncommon. Having 15 more that you cant see within 35-50 meters certainly isnt uncommon either

[geninrising]

Your guns can wreck just as well outside the Void. Your guns literally have the throne of DPS that powers don't have. Cumulatively, an AoE skill may be able to outclass a gun for DPS, but on per target DPS, guns rule outright. ANYTHING we build for Void missions is going to wreck outside of it, be they guns or powers.

 

Your power has the potential to hit that many targets. An AoE skill has the potential to cumulatively match or pass a DPS weapon depending on the number of targets in the affected area. A player has to be able to recognize how many threats are in the area and then fire off their AoE ability in order to maximize it's effectiveness.

See the problem that we have here is the idea that you need to be able to recognize how many threats you face. Which is misleading because with the kinds of builds we are talking about you don't. You just pop that ult every single time you see anything. Then walk/run/copter on and repeat.

 

Look we hardly care at all how ults work. What we are continuously trying to get through to you is the fact that energy is being bypassed and therefore ults are too powerful for this confluence of both access and power. Soo it either needs toned down in range and upped in damage or toned down in damage if you really must insist on absolute reach. Otherwise access itself needs to be touched on.

 

DE has illustrated part of this strategy on Ember's ult. It literally cannot be used constantly otherwise you have no energy to utilize the rest of her kit. Even on a full efficiency build you often run out of energy. Not that I particularly like the setup because for me cost should be equal to effectiveness, however the way it is designed drives home the point of how ults should be set up. You cannot use it constantly. Additionally you cannot get omnipotent rang out of it if you want any kind of damage. Additionally it applies it's damage over time rather than a insta nuke of all enemies in the radius thus allowing others ample opportunity to participate in combat.

[AlphaHorseman]

Powers have much more potential in every situation though. Lets not forget that seeint 15+ enemies at a time in WF isnt uncommon. Having 15 more that you cant see within 35-50 meters certainly isnt uncommon either

That's a pretty big if. That very potential is limited to the enemies in the area. It could go either way. Shoot it off and hit 15 enemy units, then bravo, nice AoE nuke! Shoot it off and hit two or three units...well, at least you hit something.

 

See the problem that we have here is the idea that you need to be able to recognize how many threats you face. Which is misleading because with the kinds of builds we are talking about you don't. You just pop that ult every single time you see anything. Then walk/run/copter on and repeat.

 

Look we hardly care at all how ults work. What we are continuously trying to get through to you is the fact that energy is being bypassed and therefore ults are too powerful for this confluence of both access and power. Soo it either needs toned down in range and upped in damage or toned down in damage if you really must insist on absolute reach. Otherwise access itself needs to be touched on.

 

DE has illustrated part of this strategy on Ember's ult. It literally cannot be used constantly otherwise you have no energy to utilize the rest of her kit. Even on a full efficiency build you often run out of energy. Not that I particularly like the setup because for me cost should be equal to effectiveness, however the way it is designed drives home the point of how ults should be set up. You cannot use it constantly. Additionally you cannot get omnipotent rang out of it if you want any kind of damage. Additionally it applies it's damage over time rather than a insta nuke of all enemies in the radius thus allowing others ample opportunity to participate in combat.

You missed my point. It isn't about seeing the threat or otherwise, I was pointing out that, even with threats in the area, there would have to be enough units in the affected area to make the power comparable damage-wise. If you see them, nice! If you don't...phew, hopefully they died when you shot it off. Even if they don't, the damage numbers can help you find their position and shoot them down.

 

SOOO nothing. Gimping powers isn't the solution to the situation, not in my eyes. DE is already implementing solutions through the Eximi, Nullifiers, and the sort. They're even changing up the maps. Improving the game, rather than detracting from the player base, not only alleviates the issues you have, but also expands and grows the game to be more enjoyable and complex.

 

You yourself went on RANTS about how the new WoF works. You yourself even pointed out the pointlessness of having a toggle-able ability that also has a duration. You yourself got infuriated and was warned by Rebecca for it. And now you think it's good? What?! They upped her survivability, but the effectiveness of her ult (which barely qualified as an ult for the flaws it has), is now limited not only by range and number of active targets hit, but duration as well, ON TOP of power strength. Her entire kit is skewed so far between those many aspects that it's extremely difficult to mod her to make her effective overall. The Ult's actually mod-ability is confusing and hindering at the moment. You already know where to find the proof for that, the megathread is filled with them.

[TwiceDead]

That's a pretty big if. That very potential is limited to the enemies in the area. It could go either way. Shoot it off and hit 15 enemy units, then bravo, nice AoE nuke! Shoot it off and hit two or three units...well, at least you hit something.

It's not a pretty big if, it's not about if's, it's a common occurrence. This is something you encounter on a regular basis in the game. 

 

Once you've managed to roughly count say 10 enemies, you can guarantee yourself that there's more of them hiding within a 30-50m radius of yourself. 

[Azawarau]

That's a pretty big if. That very potential is limited to the enemies in the area. It could go either way. Shoot it off and hit 15 enemy units, then bravo, nice AoE nuke! Shoot it off and hit two or three units...well, at least you hit something.

 

You missed my point. It isn't about seeing the threat or otherwise, I was pointing out that, even with threats in the area, there would have to be enough units in the affected area to make the power comparable damage-wise. If you see them, nice! If you don't...phew, hopefully they died when you shot it off. Even if they don't, the damage numbers can help you find their position and shoot them down.

 

SOOO nothing. Gimping powers isn't the solution to the situation, not in my eyes. DE is already implementing solutions through the Eximi, Nullifiers, and the sort. They're even changing up the maps. Improving the game, rather than detracting from the player base, not only alleviates the issues you have, but also expands and grows the game to be more enjoyable and complex.

 

You yourself went on RANTS about how the new WoF works. You yourself even pointed out the pointlessness of having a toggle-able ability that also has a duration. You yourself got infuriated and was warned by Rebecca for it. And now you think it's good? What?! They upped her survivability, but the effectiveness of her ult (which barely qualified as an ult for the flaws it has), is now limited not only by range and number of active targets hit, but duration as well, ON TOP of power strength. Her entire kit is skewed so far between those many aspects that it's extremely difficult to mod her to make her effective overall. The Ult's actually mod-ability is confusing and hindering at the moment. You already know where to find the proof for that, the megathread is filled with them.

Youre wrong

 

Keep in mind this game is an army VS a few Tenno

 

Rebecca has never warned me and ive never been infuriated over anything shes said . Youre baiting me and im not falling for it

 

I havnt had any rants about the new WoF either, though ive had many about the old one

 

I also never said the new WoF is good. The duration should be removed and adding to Embers defenses is more a band aid than a solution

 

Wherever your source of information is its entirely wrong

 

Also this is entirely off topic

 

Youre purposely avoiding directly taking on things point out thats very wrong with what youre saying by adding a bunch of junk around a flat lie

 

Enemies come at us in the tens constantly

 

Gun damage output is far lower by comparison

[AlphaHorseman]

It's not a pretty big if, it's not about if's, it's a common occurrence. This is something you encounter on a regular basis in the game. 

 

Once you've managed to roughly count say 10 enemies, you can guarantee yourself that there's more of them hiding within a 30-50m radius of yourself. 

The point I was trying to get across is that an AoE ability's effectiveness is dependent on the number of targets hit in the area. It could be really good, or it could just hit a few enemies.

[AlphaHorseman]

Youre wrong

 

Keep in mind this game is an army VS a few Tenno

 

Rebecca has never warned me and ive never been infuriated over anything shes said . Youre baiting me and im not falling for it

 

I havnt had any rants about the new WoF either, though ive had many about the old one

 

I also never said the new WoF is good. The duration should be removed and adding to Embers defenses is more a band aid than a solution

 

Wherever your source of information is its entirely wrong

 

Also this is entirely off topic

 

Youre purposely avoiding directly taking on things point out thats very wrong with what youre saying by adding a bunch of junk around a flat lie

 

Enemies come at us in the tens constantly

 

Gun damage output is far lower by comparison

You don't read well, do you? The rest of the response was to Genin, not to you, try actually reading who I quote and respond to rather than just posting, it would help with you actually understanding the content I write.

 

Oh I'm not wrong, you're just not getting the point.

 

Oh I answered every question about the functionality of powers, why nerfing availability is bad, and every other point you tried (and failed) to bring in. You just don't like the answers. None of it was a lie, neither was it junk. You're choosing to see it that way because you don't like the answers.

 

Guns rule in per target damage, powers in area damage. They work together well. Gun damage output is very good, you just can't seem to get that.

Edited January 25, 2015 by AlphaHorseman

[Azawarau]

You don't read well, do you? The rest of the response was to Genin, not to you, try actually reading who I quote and respond to rather than just posting, it would help with you actually understanding the content I write.

 

Oh I'm not wrong, you're just not getting the point.

 

Oh I answered every question about the functionality of powers, why nerfing availability is bad, and every other point you tried (and failed) to bring in. You just don't like the answers. None of it was a lie, neither was it junk. You're choosing to see it that way because you don't like the answers.

 

Guns rule in per target damage, powers in area damage. They work together well. Gun damage output is very good, you just can't seem to get that.

Powers do what guns do more efficiently at near every point in the game

 

Theres only a very small area where powers dont kill enemies with one or two uses but guns are still viable enough to kill with and even then guns will always output less dps

 

Every argument has been subjective,beaten,hypocritical, or just flat out lies

[AlphaHorseman]

Powers do what guns do more efficiently at near every point in the game

 

Theres only a very small area where powers dont kill enemies with one or two uses but guns are still viable enough to kill with and even then guns will always output less dps

 

Every argument has been subjective,beaten,hypocritical, or just flat out lies

1. All of that depends on modding.

 

2. No, even with maxed power strength, a gun with maxed mods far outclasses a power for per target DPS. Multishot doubles (or triples for secondaries) that damage to ensure that end-tier guns outclass end-game built powers for DPS.

 

3. Whatever your sweet little mind wants to believe. :)

[-OMS-Spriggan.EX]

Also the fact that spammers never listen to is, that while gun users cannot prevent spammers from participating in the combat of a mission, spammers CAN and DO prevent gunplay/melee users from even participating.

 

Then spammers have the unmitigated gall to tell people that dislike this style of play to stop trying to ruin the game for them and recruit people with the caveat that they cannot spam or play solo.

 

Also they just ignore the fact that DE has stated CLEARLY that this p42w playstyle is an EXPLOIT and continue to claim it's fair.

 

The reasons Vaughn has stated and my own additions are the reason we dislike it, not because of the enemies we face.

I completely agree about it and even knowing it is a exploit, i would like ya to point out to me where/when DE told it? Because if is true, then i'm pretty sure they will soon change the mechanics to stop working as p42w.

It would be awesome!

[Azawarau]

1. All of that depends on modding.

 

2. No, even with maxed power strength, a gun with maxed mods far outclasses a power for per target DPS. Multishot doubles (or triples for secondaries) that damage to ensure that end-tier guns outclass end-game built powers for DPS.

 

3. Whatever your sweet little mind wants to believe. :)

1.The same can be said of anything. You can mod most anything to be bad or good

 

2.Heres the lie. Guns cannot beat poers in DPS. Ash,Saryn,Mesa,Ember top damage charts with powers alone for a reason

 

3. Thats just trash talk and baiting.

[XxSeether1992xX]

-  PvP on Invasions.  If 2 Squads happen to be on the same node and are going after the opposite goals, then they will at some point during the mission run into each other and have to deal with that situation.  Of cause this would only happen if the sum total conclaves were within a buffer zone of each other for both squads and a few other factors but little things like this would start to see the game shift from the AI only focus and more and more towards PvP like other games that seem to do well with very little upkeep.

 

 The only problem with that is that it also encroaches on PvE players who'd rather not be forced into PvP. While it would give PvP players something new it would also strip that away from PvE players (Much like the DS conflicts with U14) .

Edited January 25, 2015 by XxSeether1992xX

[geninrising]

 The only problem with that is that it also encroaches on PvE players who'd rather not be forced into PvP.

That's not an issue anymore. PVP now has it's own dedicated team to flesh it out. The bonus side to that is, it is getting it's own complete rebalance game wide for all frames and weapons ^^ I can't wait!

[XxSeether1992xX]

That's not an issue anymore. PVP now has it's own dedicated team to flesh it out. The bonus side to that is, it is getting it's own complete rebalance game wide for all frames and weapons ^^ I can't wait!

What I mean is taking something that's presently PvE and making it partially PvP can put some people in a disposition. (either because they do not like PvP or have no interest in competition/Competitive play) I myself would rather not see people forced into something they don't care for or enjoy. For some that is PvP. It could also take away from PvE players in favor of the PvP crowd. Something I know people would have issues with.

Edited January 25, 2015 by XxSeether1992xX

[Azawarau]

What I mean is taking something that's presently PvE and making it partially PvP can put some people in a disposition. (either because they do not like PvP or have no interest in competition/Competitive play) I myself would rather not see people forced into something they don't care for or enjoy. For some that is PvP.

On the flip side. Alot of players would like to see alot more out of PvP including rewards where others who dont care for it and want to force it to stay as small and worthless as possible

 

Not you specifically but in general the idea of force on these forums is more like "Ill force you all i want but you cant force me on anything and im not going to meet in the middle"

Edited January 25, 2015 by Azawarau

[Sidathe]

Okay, okay. I got an idea. It's a terrible idea.

What if...for every 25 energy over 100, your 4 did more stuff. Damage, buffs, whatever. And non-duration abilities use all the energy. o 3o

[XxSeether1992xX]

On the flip side. Alot of players would like to see alot more out of PvP including rewards where others who dont care for it and want to force it to stay as small and worthless as possible

 

Not you specifically but in general the idea of force on these forums is more like "Ill force you all i want but you cant force me on anything and im not going to meet in the middle"

I get what you mean it cuts both ways. There are those who want to see it expand and then those who as you said don't and refuse to find middle ground. I would say as an alternative to this idea that there could be PvP invasions for those that want that. Then the current system for those who don't want PvP. Basically there'd be some sort of prompt to pick which version of the invasion you'd want to partake in. (Sorta like the prompts that pop up on nightmare nodes but instead there'd be like 1) PvP Invasion ,2) PvE Invasion) (Something I kinda wish the Sector conflicts had) Blending the two and forcing one onto the other or vice versa could create problems.

Edited January 25, 2015 by XxSeether1992xX

[Azawarau]

I get what you mean it cuts both ways. There are those who want to see it expand and then those who as you said don't and refuse to find middle ground. I would say as an alternative to this idea that there could be PvP invasions for those that want that. Then the current system for those who don't want PvP. Basically there'd be some sort of prompt to pick which version of the invasion you'd want to partake in. (Sorta like the prompts that pop up on nightmare nodes but instead there'd be like 1) PvP Invasion ,2) PvE Invasion) (Something I kinda wish the Sector conflicts had) Blending the two and forcing one onto the other or vice versa could create problems.

That was brought up with Dark sector conflicts

 

Alot of the issue is its not balanced

 

For starters the PvE mission will almost always be easier. Being able to blow over the AI makes it so rushing a PvE mission gives an edge for the PvE side

 

PvP could be abused in this case with win trading rather than actual PvPing

[XxSeether1992xX]

That was brought up with Dark sector conflicts

 

Alot of the issue is its not balanced

 

For starters the PvE mission will almost always be easier. Being able to blow over the AI makes it so rushing a PvE mission gives an edge for the PvE side

 

PvP could be abused in this case with win trading rather than actual PvPing

So then it comes back to the issue of balance. Though in the case of Dark Sectors I can understand having PvP (It is a conflict between tenno) But to me imposing PvP upon invasions where other factions partake and where some folks go to get various PvE related rewards is kinda stripping away from what PvE has. It just doesn't sit right with me. ( imagine an invasion offering a catalyst and a reactor and being forced to fight tenno for that reward ) While the idea would no doubt appeal to the PvP fans it would kind of lock out PvE players from PvP (Again particularly those who do not wish to get involved) I think the issue here is that there appears to be no middle ground as one seems to always jam the other. PvE has broken balance but PvP would cut off players who are strictly PvE from potential rewards and participation. (Essentially taking Invasions away from PvE and handing it to PvP giving PvE players that much less to do.)

Edited January 25, 2015 by XxSeether1992xX

[geninrising]

You yourself went on RANTS about how the new WoF works. You yourself even pointed out the pointlessness of having a toggle-able ability that also has a duration. You yourself got infuriated and was warned by Rebecca for it. And now you think it's good? What?! They upped her survivability, but the effectiveness of her ult (which barely qualified as an ult for the flaws it has), is now limited not only by range and number of active targets hit, but duration as well, ON TOP of power strength. Her entire kit is skewed so far between those many aspects that it's extremely difficult to mod her to make her effective overall. The Ult's actually mod-ability is confusing and hindering at the moment. You already know where to find the proof for that, the megathread is filled with them.

My point of discussion on Ember's ult is that if you build for duration it makes it massively prohibitive to use it. I'm quite fine with it's dps and it's inability to clear whole rooms instantly which is my problem with p42w. I have 0 problems with ults that do not utterly annihilate whole rooms instantaneously and while I feel that other ults that can be used back to back are problematic I feel no need to include Ember's ult in that discussion because it does not cause the problems other ults cause generally. There would be no discussion at all on her ult currently If all other ults were balanced to feel the same. My point of argument on that issue stems from the fact that she simply cannot use all of her kit due to the absolute necessity of applying Accelerant constantly due to durational concerns of WoF. Yes it is possible to turn it off, but before the change WoF did not require extra energy to cast and maintain it. Therefore I could build large duration and cast each 1x while I killed with my gun, using WoF as a simple dps steroid. Now it's not possible to utilize any of my builds(which do not include maximum efficiency).

[AlphaHorseman]

1.The same can be said of anything. You can mod most anything to be bad or good

 

2.Heres the lie. Guns cannot beat poers in DPS. Ash,Saryn,Mesa,Ember top damage charts with powers alone for a reason

 

3. Thats just trash talk and baiting.

1. Yeah, no kidding, that's literally the point.

 

2. Ash? You mean the total overall damage of hitting the targets with maxed power strength and range build, of which his ult has a target limit? Saryn, ah yes, the infamous 8k Miasma, of which requires the killing of her duration and maxed power strength, of which my bow can do 40k of in 1 shot. Mesa, no idea, haven't tried yet. And Ember!? HAHA oh please! WoF doesn't even do that much damage, it has an active target limit, AND doesn't scale. Fire doesn't even have any bonuses against most enemies in the game. Not to mention its damage output is powerful in later content only with the use of Accelerant.

 

3. Whatever you think it is, is whatever you think it is.

[RealPandemonium]

And Ember!? HAHA oh please! WoF doesn't even do that much damage, it has an active target limit, AND doesn't scale. Fire doesn't even have any bonuses against most enemies in the game. Not to mention its damage output is powerful in later content only with the use of Accelerant.

#nonemberplayerstalk

[DJ_Redwire]

Saryn, ah yes, the infamous 8k Miasma, of which requires the killing of her duration and maxed power strength, of which my bow can do 40k of in 1 shot. 

 

Did you seriously just compare the DPS of an ability that can melt the faces of numerous enemies to your bow that kills one enemy in the same amount of time?

 

That's like comparing a frag grenade to a sniper rifle whilst saying the sniper is better because is does more damage to a single target - meanwhile the grenade just killed the entire squad. You're really grasping at nonexistant straws here broskii.