Tactic Selections - Putting A Stop To Macro Farming, Rng And Grind Walls

[geninrising]

It would be helpful to have AlphaHorsemans' perspective on the issue as well so that we can identify if there is any room for improvement and opportunities for a resolution where all parties are satisfied with the results.  This isn't always possible I know, so the first step along the way is to identify in a clear manner the differences between opinions and then determine the size of the issue.

The problem is this^

 

I have been in many conversations with Alpha and can state the following things clearly:

1. He sees absolutely no issue whatsoever with it no matter what other individuals may see as a problem.

 

2. He feels as though absolutely no change can be made to relevant systems without ruining others gameplay.

 

3. He feels it is fine for one skill to be utilized solely if that is the players wish.

 

4. He believes that energy is working exactly as intended and DE simply gave us the means to ignore energy virtually in it's entirety.

 

5. He will not agree to any changes in how ultimates operate for fear of damaging someone else gameplay style.

 

Ok so now you have Alphas opinion on the matter and are right where this conversation has been the whole time. No change is ok.

Oh wait, implement more enemies with varied mechanics.

[AlphaHorseman]

 

 

 

 

To help me with topic OP updates and summaries, what is the underlying point of contention here?

 

Is it possible to describe this in a single sentence so that I can include this into the OP if necessary as it seems to be an on-going discussion running around in circles.

 

I want to identify the issue better with the 2 views on it clearly outlined in simplified single sentence form if possible as this will really help others to also take part in the discussion and may bring additional elements to the table.

 

Would you guys mind doing this for me please as it would really really help ~~

 

My position on the first part of the topic is pretty much choose how you play, do as you will, don't tell anyone else how to play. Unless, of course, you guys are in a group where you wanna plan things out. PUBs or otherwise.

 

The rest:

 

Guns and powers are good damage outputs, but each do it differently. To be more specific, I'll give an example. Since AoE damage skills are points of contention, an AoE damage skill, lets use Avalanche can hit targets in an area, and, when modded for max damage output, I believe can reach 3k damage per target. Guns, on the other hand, though are point and shoot, can reach damage numbers of 40k easily on an end-tier built Paris Prime (without Red Crits). There is the tradeoff, AoE skills hit an area for 3k per target, hopefully hitting more than a few targets and affecting an entire area. Guns, on the other hand, do single target damage (or multiple with Punch Through), but are outright the ruling damage dealers per target hit.

 

Used in tandem, these two systems become symbiotic in nature, with the powers offering you the opportunity to do damage through CC/Utility, and the weapons dishing it out to your enemies.

 

The killing power of either is dependent on the mods you put in, thus, if a player with end-tier builds go into lower content, they can wreck anything using a gun or their powers.

 

So, to entertain those players and ensure we all just don't go back to the same boring nodes to farm the same boring resources, we introduce actual end-game that isn't rehashed from the Star Chart to actually challenge these players who have built all this power.

 

The problem is this^

 

I have been in many conversations with Alpha and can state the following things clearly:

1. He sees absolutely no issue whatsoever with it no matter what other individuals may see as a problem.

 

2. He feels as though absolutely no change can be made to relevant systems without ruining others gameplay.

 

3. He feels it is fine for one skill to be utilized solely if that is the players wish.

 

4. He believes that energy is working exactly as intended and DE simply gave us the means to ignore energy virtually in it's entirety.

 

5. He will not agree to any changes in how ultimates operate for fear of damaging someone else gameplay style.

 

Ok so now you have Alphas opinion on the matter and are right where this conversation has been the whole time. No change is ok.

Oh wait, implement more enemies with varied mechanics.

Change is OK, if it improves the mechanics and usability of our powers, rather than limits them. I'm fine with changing powers so long as it makes them better, expand them to be not just boring old damage dealers, but have functionality of CC and/or Utility, not hinders them.

 

And yeah, implementing enemies with interesting mechanics and ways to resist our onslaught, rather than gimping the entire player base to make these boring enemies not just boring, but annoying to fight. Eximi, Nullifers, and Disrupters were a start, but they're just bullet sponges.

Edited January 21, 2015 by AlphaHorseman

[Azawarau]

There are more than a few problems with what youre saying and you know it

 

Youre forcing others into play they dont want

 

Youre cheating the game with an exploit that forces others to either cheat too or fall behind. Dont forget that every MMO has a competitive PvE side to it and keeping thing fair for everyone should be a top priority

 

Youre also giving ridiculous examples that dont make sense and sticking to them as if they do

[AlphaHorseman]

There are more than a few problems with what youre saying and you know it

 

Youre forcing others into play they dont want

 

Youre cheating the game with an exploit that forces others to either cheat too or fall behind. Dont forget that every MMO has a competitive PvE side to it and keeping thing fair for everyone should be a top priority

 

Youre also giving ridiculous examples that dont make sense and sticking to them as if they do

You know, if you want to play with people a certain way, all you have to do is talk to them before the mission starts, y'all get down how you guys wanna play nicely together, since, y'know, there is co-op in this game, and voila, nobody has any problems because everybody knows the plan.

 

It isn't a cheat if it's by design. :) Neither is there any forcing. I can't reach through the computer screen and make you play a certain way. Oh things are pretty good, Mr. Doom and gloom.

 

Perceive as you will, I know what I meant, and I wrote what I meant. It all makes sense. If that's too much to comprehend...ah well, I can't really help with that. :)

Edited January 21, 2015 by AlphaHorseman

[Azawarau]

You know, if you want to play with people a certain way, all you have to do is talk to them before the mission starts, y'all get down how you guys wanna play nicely together, since, y'know, there is co-op in this game, and voila, nobody has any problems because everybody knows the plan.

 

It isn't a cheat if it's by design. :) Neither is there any forcing. I can't reach through the computer screen and make you play a certain way. Oh things are pretty good, Mr. Doom and gloom.

 

Perceive as you will, I know what I meant, and I wrote what I meant. It all makes sense. If that's too much to comprehend...ah well, I can't really help with that. :)

Youre awfully smirky about force when its used against you

 

The smile of a politician there

 

You know youre forcing things on people and you know DE steve called it an exploit

 

You know how much more efficient it is and youll be full of it to keep it that way

[AlphaHorseman]

Youre awfully smirky about force when its used against you

 

The smile of a politician there

 

You know youre forcing things on people and you know DE steve called it an exploit

 

You know how much more efficient it is and youll be full of it to keep it that way

Now now, let's not get off topic. Red herrings aren't what this discussion needs.

 

Ah yes, I know Steve called it an exploit. I also know DE released Primed Continuity, Primed Flow, with a Primed Streamline on the way, even after he stated that. Ah look, more mods to utilize for powers. :)

 

Nothing is forced, all is permitted. All you have to do is decide. All you must do is communicate.

 

It really does depend on my builds. Defensive Frost, high efficiency isn't my avenue, full power and duration is. Offensive Frost, high efficiency, range and strength is a fun build to go with.

 

But again, let's not put red herrings here.

 

The systems of guns and powers work together, symbiotic in nature. Hurt one, you hurt the other. Thus, I'd rather stand with both systems being helped, rather than being hurt. Freedom to choose to utilize either system more than the other is a part of the foundation of this game, freedom to mix these systems is also another part. All is left to choice and preference.

[Jax_Cavalera]

Firstly, thank you guys for clarifying the basis of the difference in opinion.  The topic is a difficult one to find a resolution to.

 

Opinion A

From one perspective, it is true that we have the power to determine who we run missions with and how we play the game.  This is a very true statement.

 

Opinion B

At the same time, it is also true that each time we run a mission using a method that is not the most efficient approach available, we find ourselves being dragged further behind.

 

 

Now both are true, we do have the freedom to play how we want and I believe that everyone involved in the discussion believes that we all SHOULD have the freedom to play how we want.

 

It would also be fair to note that the game is based around Grind Walls and RNG so our current primary objective is : Kill as much as we can, as fast as we can so that we can complete the primary objective as soon as possible.

 

 

With this in mind :

it is also true that choosing to play the game using anything that is not the most efficient approach, will result in players falling behind.

 

It can be said that this is their choice and they are free to make it if they wish, but in reality, who wakes up in the morning and decides,

 

"you know what, today I want to be a loser so I can look back on today and see how little I accomplished"

 

Not a living soul...

 

 

So to state that we have the freedom of choice to choose to be a loser isn't really a valid statement as being a loser is not something any human desires to become.

 

 

Philosophy aside, let's look at the cold hard facts :

 

1.  We need the freedom to choose to play the game how we want.

 

2.  Our tactics should not be limited to 1 dominant approach but should be spread out over many tactics each providing equal value and reward.

 

3.  If the game is limited to 1 primary tactic that out-performs the rest, gameplay will lack versatility and become dull very quickly, no matter what type of enemies we come up against.

 

 

 

Solutions

 

My offering for a solution is the one that I have been bouncing around the topic for a little while, let's call it Tactic Selctions for now  :

 

Description of what Tactic Selections involves Below :

Host Elects a Tactic (such as stealth, camping, run and gun etc..) at the start of the mission and then the squad/solo player must complete the mission relying a majority of the time on that tactic.

 

At the end, they are awarded X experience points (based on what percentage of the mission was completed using their elected Tactic) and they receive the mission reward.

 

Mission rewards could be unique for every Tactic option available for that particular node and so to get ALL possible rewards, you would need to run the map and complete it successfully using all possible Tactic options.

 

 

Possible Issues

-  Players would need to be skilled at all tactics in order to complete the mission and receive all possible rewards.

 

-  Players could no longer exploit spawn glitches to gain fast XP as the maximum XP a player can gain would now be based on the percentage of the mission that was completed using the elected Tactic and as such would have a hard cap per run.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Jax_Cavalera

[Azawarau]

Now now, let's not get off topic. Red herrings aren't what this discussion needs.

 

Ah yes, I know Steve called it an exploit. I also know DE released Primed Continuity, Primed Flow, with a Primed Streamline on the way, even after he stated that. Ah look, more mods to utilize for powers. :)

 

Nothing is forced, all is permitted. All you have to do is decide. All you must do is communicate.

 

It really does depend on my builds. Defensive Frost, high efficiency isn't my avenue, full power and duration is. Offensive Frost, high efficiency, range and strength is a fun build to go with.

 

But again, let's not put red herrings here.

 

The systems of guns and powers work together, symbiotic in nature. Hurt one, you hurt the other. Thus, I'd rather stand with both systems being helped, rather than being hurt. Freedom to choose to utilize either system more than the other is a part of the foundation of this game, freedom to mix these systems is also another part. All is left to choice and preference.

Youre going to assume that the devs have no intention of further change based on this? Thats taking a leap

 

Youre forced to either spam 4 or be inefficient

 

Its that simple

 

And again powers obsolete guns for more than obvious reasons. Its not even arguable

[AlphaHorseman]

Youre going to assume that the devs have no intention of further change based on this? Thats taking a leap

 

Youre forced to either spam 4 or be inefficient

 

Its that simple

 

And again powers obsolete guns for more than obvious reasons. Its not even arguable

Oh I have no doubt they'll continue to change the systems. The changes I am banking on is building the foundations and solidifying them, rather than stripping them away.

 

All is choice, you simply must be able to see it. If you cannot, well...none of us here can help with that.

 

Say what you will, none of your examples have any credible math, nor sources, nor really any logic that is your own, nor do I really care anymore. Genin, at even his most fumed points against my stance, was able to respond with clarity and deliberate when I asked.

 

Limiting the powers isn't the avenue that sounds like an "improvement". More so a limitation, hence why it is a limitation and named so.

 

Is not the title of this thread "Improving Warframe So Players Don't Resort To Ability Spam?" By my reckoning it is. I gave such examples, improving the mechanics of our enemies, improving them to be more resistant to our damage dealing tools. Improving the rest of a WarFrames kit to make the appeal of an entirety of a kit alluring and strong, so that players tip towards more so using all powers or most powers of a kit, rather than just one. Improving the mission variety and expanding it, to ensure that players who grow with power have challenges that make them fight smarter and harder. Improving the game overall, both guns and powers, so their synergy or individual use is astounding and always viable. That's how I think we can improve the game.

[geninrising]

 

Solutions

 

My offering for a solution is the one that I have been bouncing around the topic for a little while, let's call it Tactic Selctions for now  :

 

Description of what Tactic Selections involves Below :

Host Elects a Tactic (such as stealth, camping, run and gun etc..) at the start of the mission and then the squad/solo player must complete the mission relying a majority of the time on that tactic.

 

At the end, they are awarded X experience points (based on what percentage of the mission was completed using their elected Tactic) and they receive the mission reward.

 

Mission rewards could be unique for every Tactic option available for that particular node and so to get ALL possible rewards, you would need to run the map and complete it successfully using all possible Tactic options.

 

 

Possible Issues

-  Players would need to be skilled at all tactics in order to complete the mission and receive all possible rewards.

 

-  Players could no longer exploit spawn glitches to gain fast XP as the maximum XP a player can gain would now be based on the percentage of the mission that was completed using the elected Tactic and as such would have a hard cap per run.

The problem I foresee with the given tactic solutions is that rushers and ult users will automatically cancel stealth tactics and or gun and melee players. It would be the exact same scenarios we face now only we would be getting screwed out of special rewards and thus it would be even more necessary to segregate ourselves than it is now.

 

Unfortunately the only way to let all players play how they want to in practice would be to reign in the range of ultimates which could then cause a disparity between weapons and ultimates so in fact would be no solution at all.

 

This will only ever be resolved if DE makes a clear statement to players that they must use guns and powers virtually simultaneously and then back such a statement witha  change to how ultimates work or how energy itself works. Otherwise it will ever be this constant vicious circle.

[Jax_Cavalera]

The problem I foresee with the given tactic solutions is that rushers and ult users will automatically cancel stealth tactics and or gun and melee players. It would be the exact same scenarios we face now only we would be getting screwed out of special rewards and thus it would be even more necessary to segregate ourselves than it is now.

If each Tactic such as running stealth or rushing or spamming provided the player with a unique reward at completion and the tactic is chosen by the host prior to launch. How would a player using a different tactic to the one selected cancel things without also failing the mission or heavily reducing rewarded XP post extraction?

The only time this might become a problem is in a PUB where late arrivals ignore the Tactic (which would be clearly written near the top of the HUD for the duration of the mission.

Even in that case, players can simply decide who they wish to recruit into an invite only squad removing the problem and taking advantage of the various recruiting and communication tools at our disposal.

 

Unfortunately the only way to let all players play how they want to in practice would be to reign in the range of ultimates which could then cause a disparity between weapons and ultimates so in fact would be no solution at all.

It would also limit the range of ultimates forcing people to play a different way instead of encouraging additional styles of gameplay to become equally rewarding.

The proposed Tactic Selections concept removes XP from kills out of the game and instead attaches XP to how well you/your squad performed the chosen tactic.

This to me would be a step forwards for the game as it removes incentive to mass kill and find glitches that take advantage of how mobs spawn to gain abnormal yields of XP whilst also crushing RNG (casino style) mission rewards with a specific reward for each Tactic Option.

That being said it is a big change in how players use to typical rpg games farm since the kills are usually directly connected to xp gained which I suspect is half the problem.. we are rewarding kill stealing..uncooperative behavior and spam macro-enabled mass genocide instead of diversity.

This will only ever be resolved if DE makes a clear statement to players that they must use guns and powers virtually simultaneously and then back such a statement witha  change to how ultimates work or how energy itself works. Otherwise it will ever be this constant vicious circle.

So your perspective is slightly different to Azawarau and AlphaHorseman again where you want to force players to use both weapons and abilities.

AlphaHorseman also acknowledges that weapons and abilities are currently co-dependant.

Azawarau believes that players need the freedom to play how they want and be rewarded evenly instead of one tactic rewarding higher yields than others.

Each perspective holds overlapping points of agreement and also unique aspects.

I believe that abilities and weapons are tied together at times and can also be used independently. Specifically in the case of Stephano and Draco, we can see how pure Ultimates can be used for best results no guns needed.

With Nullifiers we find the exact opposite true where weapons are the only way of killing the enemy.

In the context of CC it requires both working together.

It really depends on the tactic being deployed and enemies being opposed as to which one best suits. In the Tactic Selections, each option may not be the most efficient and that makes earning the end reward more challenging so getting all possible rewards proves you are more skilled and versatile as a mercenary warframe.

[Azawarau]

Oh I have no doubt they'll continue to change the systems. The changes I am banking on is building the foundations and solidifying them, rather than stripping them away.

 

All is choice, you simply must be able to see it. If you cannot, well...none of us here can help with that.

 

Say what you will, none of your examples have any credible math, nor sources, nor really any logic that is your own, nor do I really care anymore. Genin, at even his most fumed points against my stance, was able to respond with clarity and deliberate when I asked.

 

Limiting the powers isn't the avenue that sounds like an "improvement". More so a limitation, hence why it is a limitation and named so.

 

Is not the title of this thread "Improving Warframe So Players Don't Resort To Ability Spam?" By my reckoning it is. I gave such examples, improving the mechanics of our enemies, improving them to be more resistant to our damage dealing tools. Improving the rest of a WarFrames kit to make the appeal of an entirety of a kit alluring and strong, so that players tip towards more so using all powers or most powers of a kit, rather than just one. Improving the mission variety and expanding it, to ensure that players who grow with power have challenges that make them fight smarter and harder. Improving the game overall, both guns and powers, so their synergy or individual use is astounding and always viable. That's how I think we can improve the game.

You know

 

With that attitude well have some cynical "tired of this S#&$" player roll by and just say buff everything except powers so theyre are balanced

[oinkah]

 

The proposed Tactic Selections concept removes XP from kills out of the game and instead attaches XP to how well you/your squad performed the chosen tactic.

 

This right here is a solution to most problems.

 

I think it was South Park that made the joke about leveling up in MMOs by killing lots of boars in the starting area.

This old cliche applies to current Warframe. Players go to Stephano and kill boars en masse.

 

I think this leveling mechanic should die off. Big part of what made original Deus Ex enjoyable for me was that it awarded upgrade points for progression and exploration, not for killing every living thing that moves.

Objective based Xp should make ultimate spamming less common, without necessarily nerfing it into the ground.

Playstyle specific rewards are also good idea, even if they might segregate community a bit.

 

I think this idea needs to be expanded upon. We are finally getting somewhere.

[geninrising]

If each Tactic such as running stealth or rushing or spamming provided the player with a unique reward at completion and the tactic is chosen by the host prior to launch. How would a player using a different tactic to the one selected cancel things without also failing the mission or heavily reducing rewarded XP post extraction?

The only time this might become a problem is in a PUB where late arrivals ignore the Tactic (which would be clearly written near the top of the HUD for the duration of the mission.

Even in that case, players can simply decide who they wish to recruit into an invite only squad removing the problem and taking advantage of the various recruiting and communication tools at our disposal.

 

It would also limit the range of ultimates forcing people to play a different way instead of encouraging additional styles of gameplay to become equally rewarding.

The proposed Tactic Selections concept removes XP from kills out of the game and instead attaches XP to how well you/your squad performed the chosen tactic.

This to me would be a step forwards for the game as it removes incentive to mass kill and find glitches that take advantage of how mobs spawn to gain abnormal yields of XP whilst also crushing RNG (casino style) mission rewards with a specific reward for each Tactic Option.

That being said it is a big change in how players use to typical rpg games farm since the kills are usually directly connected to xp gained which I suspect is half the problem.. we are rewarding kill stealing..uncooperative behavior and spam macro-enabled mass genocide instead of diversity.

So your perspective is slightly different to Azawarau and AlphaHorseman again where you want to force players to use both weapons and abilities.

AlphaHorseman also acknowledges that weapons and abilities are currently co-dependant.

Azawarau believes that players need the freedom to play how they want and be rewarded evenly instead of one tactic rewarding higher yields than others.

Each perspective holds overlapping points of agreement and also unique aspects.

I believe that abilities and weapons are tied together at times and can also be used independently. Specifically in the case of Stephano and Draco, we can see how pure Ultimates can be used for best results no guns needed.

With Nullifiers we find the exact opposite true where weapons are the only way of killing the enemy.

In the context of CC it requires both working together.

It really depends on the tactic being deployed and enemies being opposed as to which one best suits. In the Tactic Selections, each option may not be the most efficient and that makes earning the end reward more challenging so getting all possible rewards proves you are more skilled and versatile as a mercenary warframe.

To clarify my point, no matter how you look at that system it makes 1 more appealing than the others. People who choose abilities will have a marked difference in how efficient they are at gaining XP. It would still be tied to how efficient powers are over stealth and gunplay. Thus the proposed change would in effect be a moot point as the issue would remain.

 

The precise reason they would have a marked gain is due to the fact that spam can clear any mission in the star chart faster than anything else and thus continuing the disparity, thus perpetuating spam. EFFECTIVENESS and EFFICIENCY are the key to fixing this issue.

 

The ONLY time it would help at all was if players ABC chose to play run and gun, Player D chooses to ult spam. That is it. However Parties that chose ability spam or ability use for their tactic would rush mission for BOOSTED xp. Thus once again causing a disparity of less time+ less effort=more efficient, as compared to More time+more effort=less efficient.

 

The only way that you would curb power spam in that scenario is to make affinity gains from other tactics so high that there would be an utter riot on the forums regarding this imbalance. Much the same situation we have now regarding the spam.

 

OR use current system removing shared affinity from ultimate ability kills. Thus the person spamming ults would then necessitate segregating themselves to do so or anger the rest of the players around them. But then we encounter individuals that don't care if they take anything away from your gameplay by ult spamming and would screw everyone...oh wait we have that now.

Edited January 22, 2015 by geninrising

[AlphaHorseman]

You know

 

With that attitude well have some cynical "tired of this S#&$" player roll by and just say buff everything except powers so theyre are balanced

Whatever you want to believe.

 

All I'm advocating for is improving the game through improving not just ourselves, but our foes, and our challenges, and expanding on the content we already have.

[SageBanshee]

To clarify my point, no matter how you look at that system it makes 1 more appealing than the others. People who choose abilities will have a marked difference in how efficient they are at gaining XP. It would still be tied to how efficient powers are over stealth and gunplay. Thus the proposed change would in effect be a moot point as the issue would remain.

 

The precise reason they would have a marked gain is due to the fact that spam can clear any mission in the star chart faster than anything else and thus continuing the disparity, thus perpetuating spam. EFFECTIVENESS and EFFICIENCY are the key to fixing this issue.

 

The ONLY time it would help at all was if players ABC chose to play run and gun, Player D chooses to ult spam. That is it. However Parties that chose ability spam or ability use for their tactic would rush mission for BOOSTED xp. Thus once again causing a disparity of less time+ less effort=more efficient, as compared to More time+more effort=less efficient.

 

The only way that you would curb power spam in that scenario is to make affinity gains from other tactics so high that there would be an utter riot on the forums regarding this imbalance. Much the same situation we have now regarding the spam.

 

OR use current system removing shared affinity from ultimate ability kills. Thus the person spamming ults would then necessitate segregating themselves to do so or anger the rest of the players around them. But then we encounter individuals that don't care if they take anything away from your gameplay by ult spamming and would screw everyone...oh wait we have that now.

I cannot argue that AoE damage is more effective than single target damage, But there is another option. What if there were more mission types, and all of the current missions had secondary objectives.

Example: primary mission- exterminate this target. Secondary- do not be detected before capturing the target.

Primary mission- kill everything. Secondary- this vessel is unstable, do not cause any explosions. Aka no abilities that deal AoE direct damage.

The reward for doing both would be immense and would give players incentive to not just outright spam abilities. While players still can if they wish, it is more rewarding to not do so.

Another suggestion, and they are already doing this, is to spawn a mini boss enemy type into the game, or several, that is resistant yet not immune to abilities. That way players actually have to ponder how to destroy them.

[geninrising]

I cannot argue that AoE damage is more effective than single target damage, But there is another option. What if there were more mission types, and all of the current missions had secondary objectives.

Example: primary mission- exterminate this target. Secondary- do not be detected before capturing the target.

Primary mission- kill everything. Secondary- this vessel is unstable, do not cause any explosions. Aka no abilities that deal AoE direct damage.

The reward for doing both would be immense and would give players incentive to not just outright spam abilities. While players still can if they wish, it is more rewarding to not do so.

Another suggestion, and they are already doing this, is to spawn a mini boss enemy type into the game, or several, that is resistant yet not immune to abilities. That way players actually have to ponder how to destroy them.

The problem I see with this multi objective concept still remains the same as the tactics choice stated above. In order to make it more effective than quick clearing ulti style it would need to be so imbalanced reward wise as to cause quite a massive surge of resentment amongst users of teh p42w method of farming.

[AlphaHorseman]

The problem I see with this multi objective concept still remains the same as the tactics choice stated above. In order to make it more effective than quick clearing ulti style it would need to be so imbalanced reward wise as to cause quite a massive surge of resentment amongst users of teh p42w method of farming.

Not necessarily. All they would have to do is join a group or find a PUB that wants to also do the same as them. Thus, they get to play with players they like to play with and play well with them, and we all get to enjoy multi-objective missions with different twists and dynamics. We all win!

[geninrising]

Not necessarily. All they would have to do is join a group or find a PUB that wants to also do the same as them. Thus, they get to play with players they like to play with and play well with them, and we all get to enjoy multi-objective missions with different twists and dynamics. We all win!

No and here is why. The only way to discourage individuals from committing to just p42w is a loss of something. Otherwise players that dislike the playstyle would still be subject to segregation and that is what I'm fighting against as well. We should all be able to play together EQUALLY with no style being better or more efficient than the other.

[Jax_Cavalera]

The problem I see with this multi objective concept still remains the same as the tactics choice stated above. In order to make it more effective than quick clearing ulti style it would need to be so imbalanced reward wise as to cause quite a massive surge of resentment amongst users of teh p42w method of farming.

All Tactic Selections would need to fix this issue is a balancing of XP per run depending on what Tactic is chosen.

If DE ran bulk tests with players running the tactics and calculated the average times it took a player to complete a mission with individual tactics. DE could then calculate the percentage difference and then apply this offset so that harder/slower tactics are rewarding higher XP per run which removes the unbalanced differences.

Also if players want all extraction rewards they would need to run the nodes in all possible tactic options

You do mention balanced XP gains for each tactic though I don't believe we would see a riot over this as long as DE clearly communicated that they are balancing XP gained for individual tactic options from the start.

It is hard to argue that completing an Exterminate mission with Secondaries Only is as fast as completing it with Abilities Only.

[AlphaHorseman]

No and here is why. The only way to discourage individuals from committing to just p42w is a loss of something. Otherwise players that dislike the playstyle would still be subject to segregation and that is what I'm fighting against as well. We should all be able to play together EQUALLY with no style being better or more efficient than the other.

I thought the Tactics and Secondary Objectives things were our approaches to ensuring people follow through with the plan? If you don't follow through with the groups chosen tactic/objectives, you pretty much lost a lot of the rewards you could've gotten.

 

There's always going to be a "Fast lane", that's the case in any game. Whatever that is changes as the game changes. And even then, people will like playing with certain individuals or play styles more so than others, no matter what we do. We can't force them to play with everybody, because everyone has their group of friends that they like more than the rest. They don't click with everyone, but we all go to the same school, just to give an example. I know its a weird one, but it was the first one that popped into my head and made some semblance of sense.

[Azawarau]

Whatever you want to believe.

 

All I'm advocating for is improving the game through improving not just ourselves, but our foes, and our challenges, and expanding on the content we already have.

Youre advocating self interest in the name of hypocrisy under the law of nonsense

 

Nerfing isnt a negative thing. You cant paint it that way all you want but you really have no way to prove it

 

As long as youre stuck on subjectivity that wont change

[AlphaHorseman]

Youre advocating self interest in the name of hypocrisy under the law of nonsense

 

Nerfing isnt a negative thing. You cant paint it that way all you want but you really have no way to prove it

 

As long as youre stuck on subjectivity that wont change

Whatever your sweet little mind wants to believe. :)

 

I never knew advocating for expanding, improving, and fleshing out the game mechanics was advocating for "self interest in the name of hypocrisy", but I guess wanting a game I love to grow and expand is selfish. Neither would I ever think that expanding our game is something "under the law of nonsense."

 

Oh of course I can't paint it that way all I want, that sentence didn't really make grammatical sense, but yeah, I can't paint it that way all I want. Oh I'm so sure you, as the arbiter of balance in all things WarFrame, know the very core of balance and harmony and the interests of all players. Now please, try to be on topic.

 

We're on the topic of Tactics and Secondary Objectives, care to join us rather than personally attacking someone?

Edited January 23, 2015 by AlphaHorseman

[Jax_Cavalera]

Yep Alpha that is what the description mentions and that is how I intended it to be understood too. The percentage of XP you can get is based on how much of the mission was completed using the chosen Tactic and if it is completed with less than 50%, players do not get the end reward.

Or possibly fail the mission..could be too harsh not sure.

If you find a disruptive player in a PUB game, simply change the setting to Invite Only reforming the squad without that player and then recruit a new 4th from the recruiting chat tab.

I don't run tower keys with randoms unless we first discuss the plan prior to launch and all agree on it. The randoms I run with all come from recruiting and are less random than what you get in a Pub game.

Genrising, would I be correct in stating that the problem you have with the solution is that it requires players to communicate for it to work?

Squads would need to work together and this also requires players to communicate.

Edited January 23, 2015 by Jax_Cavalera

[Azawarau]

Whatever your sweet little mind wants to believe. :)

 

We're on the topic of Tactics and Secondary Objectives, care to join us rather than personally attacking someone?

Id rather stay closer to the main topic

 

And try to get an actual answer out of you thats more than subjective