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Jax_Cavalera

Tactic Selections - Putting A Stop To Macro Farming, Rng And Grind Walls

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I'm not as experienced in the game as some of these founders and such, but with my 550+ hours I would have to say that blaming abilities and frames solely is only getting part of the picture.

 

Sure some frames aren't completely balanced and probably deserve some sort of nerfs here and there, but it would be wrong to say that those nerfs would fix the issue.

 

Enemy Balance is, IMHO, more at fault here than the frames. The frames are how players carry out their play styles. If they want to spam an ability, why stop them? That is how they want to play. You want to play without ult spam being a thing? You should be able to do that as well.

 

Why can't you both play as you wish?

 

-Scaling is almost non-existent in enemies

-There is no balance. The enemies are either killing the player outright, or might as well be playing a submissive. Enemies are just shat out in huge groups. No strategy, no thinking. Just point at a door and run. One squad didn't receive proper training and were completely wiped out by the Tenno scum. But this squad has 5 bombards, 5 Helions, 3 Heavy Gunners, and a Drahk Master. NOW RUN STRAIGHT AT THEM.

-AI sucks. Between the terrible balance and scaling, the AI is terrible. So many times I've watched enemies take cover from me, but on the same side that I am on. Enemies turning around in a circular motion with no end in sight. Ballistas running through the middle of a battlefield. Scorchers shooting randomly at nothing.

-The AI is also broken. I've seen latchers teleport from 10 feet away and stick to me. When an enemy falls off the map or something to prevent being killed, it takes a good couple of minutes to respawn. Despite nerfs, the Infested Moas are terribly broken. They are sent out in hoards to the point where the entire area is blanketed in Tar and Swarm. ODDs and Dark Sector Defenses could easily last past 30 before. Now, you are lucky to get past ten in higher level ones. Not even long enough to experience all loot rotations. Not only are they silly as far as balancing goes, but they can also preform their functions when stunned and in Vortex. There is no reason for this.

 

 

 

Before we butcher the frames, we should at least attempt to fix what those abilities are used on, as it is both a broken system, and is the cause of a lot of issues within Warframe. People wouldn't feel as if they needed to spam their 4's if they were capable of dealing with those god-tier enemies. People also would realize using your abilities as much as you can isn't bad, if the submissive enemies were a bit more challenging. Balances in Frames and abilities should, imo, be held off until we can be sure the enemies are no longer an issue.

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Look dude, you choose how you play, that's the point of us having preferences. If you did the numbers and that's what you got, gold star for you. Doesn't mean I'm changing up my defensive Frost Build because you think another is better.

 

I've said that in every post, or meant it in every post. People are gonna play in PUB's and not play like you, best you can do is ask them if they could tone it down for that round. Best part is, there will also be players that play like you. Jist of it all, you get apples sometimes and oranges sometimes, doesn't mean using an apple to make apple juice is gonna jive well when everyone else is squirting oranges everywhere. Sometimes it's best to do it in private, though how you do it, is all up to you.

On the topic of "Forcing the players to play in a certain way":

When the game is balanced around ability spam, you most certainly ARE forcing players to play a certain way.

Because DE accounts for the fact that we can use our incredibly strong abilities to just blow through countless waves of enemies, they make the drop and exp tables incredibly unrewarding for the player who wants to fight in some unique style that doesn't involve mashing 4 every time it's off CD. For the most extreme examples, consider a player who levels his guns by running through solo missions because he finds them more fun, versus a player who ranks his weapons in a Stephano Rep farm squad.

 

Sure, you're 'free' to limit yourself to incredibly low EXP gain and virtually non-existent drops, but to advance at a reasonable pace you are in some extent forced into ability spam. There are certainly phases in the game that are completely unreachable outside of spamming abilities, that doesn't give players an option. those situations basically scream 'play Four-Frame or go home'

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On the topic of "Forcing the players to play in a certain way":

When the game is balanced around ability spam, you most certainly ARE forcing players to play a certain way.

Because DE accounts for the fact that we can use our incredibly strong abilities to just blow through countless waves of enemies, they make the drop and exp tables incredibly unrewarding for the player who wants to fight in some unique style that doesn't involve mashing 4 everytime it's off CD.

 

Sure, you're 'free' to limit yourself to incredibly low EXP gain and virtually non-existent drops, but to advance at a reasonable pace you are in some extent forced into ability spam. There are certainly phases in the game that are completely unreachable outside of spamming abilities, that doesn't give players an option. those situations basically scream 'play Four-Frame or go home'

 

You realize how little people actually mash 4? Go look at the polls and you'll see.

 

The game doesn't even force you into ability spam. I've played matches in high level content just fine without powers (thanks to annoying Eximi). My bow can clear a room just as easily as my powers can.

 

"incredibly low levels" what are you talking about? A Dread/Paris Prime can hit enemies for 40k WITHOUT a red crit, the Soma Prime and Boltor Prime have the highest DPS in the game. What phases? Your guns outshine your damage output of powers by leagues! Enemies in endless become difficult for powers to kill, but aim a bow at them? And they'll fall just as fast as they did before. Guns far outclass per target DPS when it comes to the comparison of guns to powers. Your powers provide CC, sure, if they even have that, but their damage output isn't even palpable past a certain point, by then your guns are your only reliable source of damage output. You're not "press 4 to win", you're "press power for CC and shoot gun to win".

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You realize how little people actually mash 4? Go look at the polls and you'll see.

 

The game doesn't even force you into ability spam. I've played matches in high level content just fine without powers (thanks to annoying Eximi). My bow can clear a room just as easily as my powers can.

 

"incredibly low levels" what are you talking about? A Dread/Paris Prime can hit enemies for 40k WITHOUT a red crit, the Soma Prime and Boltor Prime have the highest DPS in the game. What phases? Your guns outshine your damage output of powers by leagues! Enemies in endless become difficult for powers to kill, but aim a bow at them? And they'll fall just as fast as they did before. Guns far outclass per target DPS when it comes to the comparison of guns to powers. Your powers provide CC, sure, if they even have that, but their damage output isn't even palpable past a certain point, by then your guns are your only reliable source of damage output. You're not "press 4 to win", you're "press power for CC and shoot gun to win".

 

 

I'm not going to jump onto any particular side here and would instead just include that whilst I agree that weapons are used to do majority of the killing end game, it is reliant upon CC abilities which you do mention as well.

 

This being said and done, it's not the fastest or most reliable way to rank up frames and gear in comparison to ability spamming and even if it were, we are trading standing in 1 spot pressing a button to standing in 1 spot spamming the trigger and occasionally using CC with good duration.

 

It is variety sure, though there are a lot of things a ninja can do in this game which involve being mobile and not stationary. Really though I don't mind if people want to play that way and agree they should be able to since some times after a hard day of reality it's nice to just zone out and do that.

 

So long as there are ways to make it Anti-Macro Farmer without breaking it then I think we are onto something good.

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To everyone who keeps saying that ult spammers should be left alone and have their fun. Let's look at the very basic situation:

exterminate (simplest mission) with 4 random players.

 

Player Nr.1 is a stealth player. He would like to finish mission undetected.

 

Player Nr.2 wants to shoot things with his unsilenced guns. Immediately, Player 1 is forced to abandon his playstyle and mimic Player 2.

 

Player Nr.3 is a rusher. He uses coptering to get to places faster and starts killing earlier. Now both players 1 and 2 are forced to adapt and use coptering, or else they will be missing out on majority of kills.

 

Player Nr.4 is an ult spammer. He destroys entire rooms as soon as he walks into them. Players 1, 2 and 3 have only one option: try to outrun player 4 and press ultimate before he does, or else they will be left without any kills at all. And only if their frames have viable nukes.

 

 

As we can see. playstyle hierarchy exists:

stealth < slow shooting < rushing + shooting < rushing + ult spamming

 

Each higher level completely shuts down all lower ones. Ult spammer is the top dog here. As soon as he arrives, no one else can function properly.

 

And "Play solo" is a silly advice. Warframe is a co-op game. When adding teammates subtracts fun instead of adding it, in a co-op game, then something went very wrong with it's design.

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To everyone who keeps saying that ult spammers should be left alone and have their fun. Let's look at the very basic situation:

exterminate (simplest mission) with 4 random players.

 

Player Nr.1 is a stealth player. He would like to finish mission undetected.

 

Player Nr.2 wants to shoot things with his unsilenced guns. Immediately, Player 1 is forced to abandon his playstyle and mimic Player 2.

 

Player Nr.3 is a rusher. He uses coptering to get to places faster and starts killing earlier. Now both players 1 and 2 are forced to adapt and use coptering, or else they will be missing out on majority of kills.

 

Player Nr.4 is an ult spammer. He destroys entire rooms as soon as he walks into them. Players 1, 2 and 3 have only one option: try to outrun player 4 and press ultimate before he does, or else they will be left without any kills at all. And only if their frames have viable nukes.

 

 

As we can see. playstyle hierarchy exists:

stealth < slow shooting < rushing + shooting < rushing + ult spamming

 

Each higher level completely shuts down all lower ones. Ult spammer is the top dog here. As soon as he arrives, no one else can function properly.

 

And "Play solo" is a silly advice. Warframe is a co-op game. When adding teammates subtracts fun instead of adding it, in a co-op game, then something went very wrong with it's design.

 

That's a good point and I would say that one way to avoid that problem would be to be a little bit choosy about who you want to play with as most people are happy and considerate enough to take it in turns at completing missions the way others want.

 

If you don't like the way a random is forcing you to all play then you simply break squad and re-invite only those who were playing a way you enjoyed and then re load the mission as Invite Only.

 

These settings are there to be used.  I find that often when you do run missions with people on your friends list you all have a similar goal in mind and that lends to your play styles being similar anyway.

 

I do see the point you make about PUB games and how there is room for players to force others to play they way they are and Ability Spamming being the top dog.  I don't know for sure that removing ability spam will fix the problem as the buck will just pass down to the next offender and also the main reason ability spam is so frequently used is to combat the brutal grind walls and RNG we are up against.

 

We are playing a game that has worse odds than winning big at a casino and ability spam seems to be the best way to get a fair chance.

 

 

What are your thoughts however on the concept of unique rewards for using specific methods to beat the same mission?  I proposed this concept in the OP so that players would get to vote on an approach at the beginning or the host simply elects an option and then the group only get the reward if they beat the mission using this approach and the reward they get is unique.

 

So beating the mission Stealth may get you a R5 pack but beating it by spamming abilities gets you a Latron Prime Barrel or something. and there being other options like Pistols only, Speed Running so beating it in under a given time frame etc...

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That's a good point and I would say that one way to avoid that problem would be to be a little bit choosy about who you want to play with as most people are happy and considerate enough to take it in turns at completing missions the way others want.

 

If you don't like the way a random is forcing you to all play then you simply break squad and re-invite only those who were playing a way you enjoyed and then re load the mission as Invite Only.

 

 

See the problem with that is the fact that what we would then be doing is forcing segregation on players simply for their choice whereas ult spammers do not face this under any circumstances as they just override anything anyone else wants to do. This is a part of my core argument.

 

Someone can and will argue that it is not forcing you to do anything but how can it be seen otherwise? There is no way else to see it logically.

Rushers I can live with honestly as that is using physical SKILL to play, which in turn requires various amounts of experience and prowess at utilizing various systems in game to complete the action. What I cannot handle however is a player acquiring necessary mods and from that point on utterly destroying everything for the rest of their time here with impunity utilizing no skill at all.

 

Perhaps the Ranges of Nuke ultimates could be looked at in order to reign in the overwhelming nature of said ults?

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-snip-

 

And "Play solo" is a silly advice. Warframe is a co-op game. When adding teammates subtracts fun instead of adding it, in a co-op game, then something went very wrong with it's design.

 

It's a silly advice, but what can you pretend from a random group?

 

Open up the chat, speak with ppl, make a plan and discuss on how you wanna handle that mission and there you go, solved.

 

PUGs will always disappoint you if you are looking for a very specific playstyle and you dont say anything.

 

PS: Rush + Gunning >>> Rush + Ulti Spam in many situations

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And "Play solo" is a silly advice. Warframe is a co-op game. When adding teammates subtracts fun instead of adding it, in a co-op game, then something went very wrong with it's design.

I'm sorry sir. Were going to have to ask you to cease applying logic to things. Too many players abhor that in the forums ;)

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You realize how little people actually mash 4? Go look at the polls and you'll see.

 

The game doesn't even force you into ability spam. I've played matches in high level content just fine without powers (thanks to annoying Eximi). My bow can clear a room just as easily as my powers can.

 

"incredibly low levels" what are you talking about? A Dread/Paris Prime can hit enemies for 40k WITHOUT a red crit, the Soma Prime and Boltor Prime have the highest DPS in the game. What phases? Your guns outshine your damage output of powers by leagues! Enemies in endless become difficult for powers to kill, but aim a bow at them? And they'll fall just as fast as they did before. Guns far outclass per target DPS when it comes to the comparison of guns to powers. Your powers provide CC, sure, if they even have that, but their damage output isn't even palpable past a certain point, by then your guns are your only reliable source of damage output. You're not "press 4 to win", you're "press power for CC and shoot gun to win".

 

I was implying spammed CC abilities. 

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-snip-

 

And "Play solo" is a silly advice. Warframe is a co-op game. When adding teammates subtracts fun instead of adding it, in a co-op game, then something went very wrong with it's design.

You realize that all could've been solved with all of you talking before the match and agreeing on how to play together? Since this game does have co-op in it, it would've been pretty smart to be cooperative with one another and actually talk.

 

I was implying spammed CC abilities. 

Which ones? And please clarify why.

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What are you talking about? Who builds it to abuse the star chart? With what builds? What portion of the community? Where is your proof? Oh lemme guess, its the p42w players? Is that the ones?

 

What map were you and your Saryn on? Huh? Oh lemme guess, you used it on a map that had enemies that had lower HP than your damage output BECAUSE you had the mods leveled high enough to clear it. Is that so? Well isn't that hypocritical? I LOVE having my bow being able to do that. THAT'S WHY I built it to do that. Is it wrong? No, because I'm utilizing the tools DE has given me to the fullest potential for it to fit my needs.

 

Oh I have a very reasonable argument. Apparently you can't seem to realize it and are just back peddling.

 

I SHOWED YOU and wrote so many times on how guns and powers are BOTH good. Guns outright rule in single target DPS, hence why they're guns. If an AoE skill hits enough targets, ONLY THEN is it going to match guns for damage output, and that's in TOTAL damage output, not single target DPS, hence why they're AoE skills.

 

If the only thing you can comprehend is "Biased", that's pretty hypocritical of you. I gave you examples, I gave you reasons why we do this, I gave you literally every response and responded to each of your posts. Oh I don't need backup, I'm going to enjoy debunking and giving you reasons for whatever statement you've got.

 

Brick wall? Oh really? Coming from the guy who keeps calling me a hypocrite and biased, yeah, that's a laugh.

Someones sounding a bit defensive here

 

Its alot like is aid

 

Youre comparing guns to powers

 

Let me give you an example

 

You can either shoot a guy

 

Or

 

You can drop an A bomb on his base and kill him and all of his evil henchmen for miles

 

In this sense guns cant compare

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Someones sounding a bit defensive here

 

Its alot like is aid

 

Youre comparing guns to powers

 

Let me give you an example

 

You can either shoot a guy

 

Or

 

You can drop an A bomb on his base and kill him and all of his evil henchmen for miles

 

In this sense guns cant compare

Ah yes, because that bomb does 1/5 or even 1/10 the damage to each of those targets. Yes, that sounds like an assured way to make sure they die.

 

/sarcasm

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Which ones? And please clarify why.

You will not make it very far in T4D without strong CC like Disarm/Blind/Chaos/etc

 

It may be fair to say that we aren't intended to last absurdly long infinite missions. and that our CC abilities are artificially boosting our progression in infinite missions.

But regardless of intended design, it's very obvious that we can easily last for extremely long in high level infinite missions by spamming abilities, and as such DE has balanced rewards and XP based on the fact that we can spam abilities. This means unless you're spamming abilities, you're not going to have very good rewards.

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You will not make it very far in T4D without strong CC like Disarm/Blind/Chaos/etc

 

It may be fair to say that we aren't intended to last absurdly long infinite missions. and that our CC abilities are artificially boosting our progression in infinite missions.

But regardless of intended design, it's very obvious that we can easily last for extremely long in high level infinite missions by spamming abilities, and as such DE has balanced rewards and XP based on the fact that we can spam abilities. This means unless you're spamming abilities, you're not going to have very good rewards.

I don't know if you count Snow Globe as CC, but that helps a lot too.

 

Again though, the abilities afford us opportunity through CC/Utility, not always directly damaging them. You guns are the things that really do the damage and sustain that damage. All examples you've stated are hard CC skills that help to open up opportunities, not directly kill the enemy. It's actually impossible to balance around infinite content, that's why they haven't. Unless you can give me examples on how we are balanced around infinite content...of which I don't see how that is the case. Our powers have (some degree) functionality throughout the game, becoming powerful in end-game content. Endless missions represent where we see the limits of our powers and our guns, not balanced around.

 

How are rewards balanced through this? If you are referring to Drop Tables, endless gives the opportunity to add in multiple drop tables for different intervals, not balancing the entire game around it. And also, EXP is pretty much the same throughout the star chart, even in the Void the levels are the same. You also gain EXP from allied kills, not as much, but it's still there.

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I don't know if you count Snow Globe as CC, but that helps a lot too.

 

Again though, the abilities afford us opportunity through CC/Utility, not always directly damaging them. You guns are the things that really do the damage and sustain that damage. All examples you've stated are hard CC skills that help to open up opportunities, not directly kill the enemy. It's actually impossible to balance around infinite content, that's why they haven't. Unless you can give me examples on how we are balanced around infinite content...of which I don't see how that is the case. Our powers have (some degree) functionality throughout the game, becoming powerful in end-game content. Endless missions represent where we see the limits of our powers and our guns, not balanced around.

 

How are rewards balanced through this? If you are referring to Drop Tables, endless gives the opportunity to add in multiple drop tables for different intervals, not balancing the entire game around it. And also, EXP is pretty much the same throughout the star chart, even in the Void the levels are the same. You also gain EXP from allied kills, not as much, but it's still there.

 

Yeah that would make sense if we were truly 'opening up opportunities', but in the game's current state those 'opportunities' are already the standard because it's a given that we're going to spam.

 

As for balancing, our drop and exp tables are diluted.

 

Ex: poor drop tables:

Usually you want to run at least 40 minutes of T4S/ Equivalent waves in Int/Def to get 2 rotation C's for a fair chance of getting something good. T4S is incredibly difficult without spammable abilities. Without spamming CC, we would be extremely unlikely to reach 40 minutes, and as such DE would probably think about shifting the drops by making a rotation every 3 minutes or something instead of 5.

 

Ex: poor EXP:

When you get new mastery fodder, you don't run solo exterminate missions, you just join an infinite missions and spam CC abilities, ex: ODD with Vauban.

 

As of recent, we use Stephano/Draco rep farm to grind even faster. Rep farm is NOT what the exp is balanced around, that's why it's so fast. Imagine if the game were balanced around rep farm. Non-Rep missions would give you nearly 0 exp. It's the same story now with infinite defense missions where non-infinite missions are simply not rewarding.

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Yeah that would make sense if we were truly 'opening up opportunities', but in the game's current state those 'opportunities' are already the standard because it's a given that we're going to spam.

 

As for balancing, our drop and exp tables are diluted.

 

Ex: poor drop tables:

Usually you want to run at least 40 minutes of T4S/ Equivalent waves in Int/Def to get 2 rotation C's for a fair chance of getting something good. T4S is incredibly difficult without spammable abilities. Without spamming CC, we would be extremely unlikely to reach 40 minutes, and as such DE would probably think about shifting the drops by making a rotation every 3 minutes or something instead of 5.

 

Ex: poor EXP:

When you get new mastery fodder, you don't run solo exterminate missions, you just join an infinite missions and spam CC abilities, ex: ODD with Vauban.

 

As of recent, we use Stephano/Draco rep farm to grind even faster. Rep farm is NOT what the exp is balanced around, that's why it's so fast. Imagine if the game were balanced around rep farm. Non-Rep missions would give you nearly 0 exp. It's the same story now with infinite defense missions where non-infinite missions are simply not rewarding.

So your point is to remove the ability to cast said CC skills when readily available, in the hopes that DE will shorten the reward intervals? Realize that your examples also are dependent on the fact that the powers that provide CC are also there to ensure that your guns can clear the threats out. The two systems work in tandem together to ensure that we can go as far as possible. One giving the opportunity, the other ensuring it isn't wasted. Hurting one just hurts the other.

 

Even with your Vauban example. Using Vortex and Bastille offer you the opportunity to kill targets with your mastery fodder, it does not outright kill said targets. Thank heavens the game isn't balanced around rep farming. The non-infinite missions do have their rewards, well in the void they do. Outside of it, non-infinite missions are pretty much completed for their node unlocks or alerts/syndicate missions, while we use the endless types for leveling and farming mods/resources. If we wanted to add rewards to the other mission types, that would be an entirely different discussion.

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I find it difficult to believe that there is a way in which DE can enforce players to become effective communicators for the purposes of PUB squads.  This really comes down to the players and being able to communicate their intentions before they kick-start the mission.

 

In general, PUB matches will often default to the most common tactics deployed to complete a mission for the reasons that a few of the posts have highlighted.  It is also the same reason why DE provide us the options of Solo, Invite Only, Friends Only and Public.  It is also why they provide us with the tools to Recruit squads.  There appears to be (and I could be wrong about this observation) an acknowledgment by DE that this problem is one that needs to be self regulated and controlled by the individual players.

 

My problem with Ability Spam comes down to the fact that it opens up this game for Trade Dilution due to Macro Farmers on multiple accounts faring up rare rewards by increasing the odds of winning at the Warframe Casino in their favour.  This makes for an unfair advantage that unmanned players can have and also dramatically impacts on the bulk of the community each time DE take new drastic actions to prevent that type of behavior.

 

This is the primary reason why I think we need to find solutions that remove the will to want to Ability Spam/Macro Farm this game which, to me seems like a problem with multiple areas that need addressing.

 

-  Income Replacement for loss in sales once Grind/RNG - Casino Gameplay Mechanics are reduced/removed

 

-  Better ways for players to obtain content in game that don't rely on Casino Elements

 

-  Improved goals and reward systems so that players still have a build up towards true End Game Content that has good replay-ability

 

-  More dynamic and interesting approaches for combat with enemies both AI and Human.

 

 

I'm sure there are other areas that need looking into as well.

 

 

 

To be clear, I feel the frustration that comes from starting a game up and one player has their settings on Public so halfway through a planned strategy some random drops in and begins to ruin the plans.

 

I also know the frustration of then trying to hold civil conversation with such players and them telling me where to go and how, "they have just as much right to play how they want in each game they play as I do so just STFU", when all I was asking them to do was to consider that we have 3 players working towards a specific tactic and goal for the mission and that if they want to play a different way we can do that in the next run.

 

So yes there are problems on that front as well regarding the way Private matches can be infiltrated mid game by Pub players...perhaps that needs to be addressed and unless the host is running Public, the match can only be joined by invite or friends only etc. (Obeys Hosts' Settings).  And perhaps if the current settings of the squad were displayed for all members to see that would help too.

 

This may not directly reduce ability spam but it will reduce the only loophole in preventing an organised and well communicated game turning sour.

 

 

 

 

EDIT :

 

Opening Post has been Updated to reflect the current progress of the topic.

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Ah yes, because that bomb does 1/5 or even 1/10 the damage to each of those targets. Yes, that sounds like an assured way to make sure they die.

 

/sarcasm

And hits 20-30 times more targets at once

 

Im no mathmagician but....

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And hits 20-30 times more targets at once

 

Im no mathmagician but....

Ah that's IF there are that many enemies in the area. And also the radius of the area. You could fire off an AoE like that and hit two targets, or ten. Ten targets, good job! Two targets? Well...that was pretty much wasted.

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And hits 20-30 times more targets at once

 

Im no mathmagician but....

 

 

Ah that's IF there are that many enemies in the area. And also the radius of the area. You could fire off an AoE like that and hit two targets, or ten. Ten targets, good job! Two targets? Well...that was pretty much wasted.

 

 

To help me with topic OP updates and summaries, what is the underlying point of contention here?

 

Is it possible to describe this in a single sentence so that I can include this into the OP if necessary as it seems to be an on-going discussion running around in circles.

 

I want to identify the issue better with the 2 views on it clearly outlined in simplified single sentence form if possible as this will really help others to also take part in the discussion and may bring additional elements to the table.

 

Would you guys mind doing this for me please as it would really really help ~~

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Ah that's IF there are that many enemies in the area. And also the radius of the area. You could fire off an AoE like that and hit two targets, or ten. Ten targets, good job! Two targets? Well...that was pretty much wasted.

Thats because you already killed them with your last 4 and are moving to a new area to do the same

 

 

 
 

 

To help me with topic OP updates and summaries, what is the underlying point of contention here?

 

Is it possible to describe this in a single sentence so that I can include this into the OP if necessary as it seems to be an on-going discussion running around in circles.

 

I want to identify the issue better with the 2 views on it clearly outlined in simplified single sentence form if possible as this will really help others to also take part in the discussion and may bring additional elements to the table.

 

Would you guys mind doing this for me please as it would really really help ~~

 

Well in my view (I cant fit this into one sentence but ill try to in a TL;DR)

 

The issue comes down quite a bit to players becoming too dependent on powers because theyre just so much more efficient than weapons to the point where weapons really only play clean up for whatever your powers dont kill or play kill the helpless enemy for you after using a power

 

I feel like powers should be big and commanding but not to the point where content is trivialized unless a given drawback exists

 

Cooldowns on ults would solve this but ive always been against this for many reasons including slowing down the face paced gameplay of warframe, though considering sitting and hitting 4 is much slower its actually a far bette than what we have now

 

Over all

 

Damage,Exp,powers need to change to scale differently

 

EXP should be much higher against enemies beyond 45 and lower on enemies below 40

 

Enemy damage and armor should sale a bit slower

 

Player powers shouldnt scale infinitely with enemies so endless missions reach a real end

 

TL:DR

 

Damage,Exp,powers need to change to scale differently

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So it would be fair to say that you don't strictly speaking have a problem with players using Spam Abilities provided it doesn't grant them a full access pass to the winners circle where it can be used to solve all challenges that they face?

 

Might be slightly off-topic but I feel it could also be related as it links to a game mode option that is affected by ability spam

 

I created a topic about an upgrade to survival and am now realising that the problems expressed by the minority who were not wanting the change stem from this same ideology which makes sense.

 

If we are able to ensure that difficulty scales smoothly and reaches a point where it can't be negated by the right combination of ability spam, the dependence on life support would be a non-issue and would allow players to try and approach the raw survival game mode I proposed using any tactic they saw fit and would boil down to their skill as individuals and also their ability to work as a coordinated team in the context of squads.

 

It would be helpful to have AlphaHorsemans' perspective on the issue as well so that we can identify if there is any room for improvement and opportunities for a resolution where all parties are satisfied with the results.  This isn't always possible I know, so the first step along the way is to identify in a clear manner the differences between opinions and then determine the size of the issue.

 

Once we have both sides to the situation in simplified formats I will do my best to include this into the Opening Post as a subject of discussion to be weighted for contributions to the complete solution we are all working towards in terms of productive feedback on the issue.

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So it would be fair to say that you don't strictly speaking have a problem with players using Spam Abilities provided it doesn't grant them a full access pass to the winners circle where it can be used to solve all challenges that they face?

 

Might be slightly off-topic but I feel it could also be related as it links to a game mode option that is affected by ability spam

 

I created a topic about an upgrade to survival and am now realising that the problems expressed by the minority who were not wanting the change stem from this same ideology which makes sense.

 

If we are able to ensure that difficulty scales smoothly and reaches a point where it can't be negated by the right combination of ability spam, the dependence on life support would be a non-issue and would allow players to try and approach the raw survival game mode I proposed using any tactic they saw fit and would boil down to their skill as individuals and also their ability to work as a coordinated team in the context of squads.

 

It would be helpful to have AlphaHorsemans' perspective on the issue as well so that we can identify if there is any room for improvement and opportunities for a resolution where all parties are satisfied with the results.  This isn't always possible I know, so the first step along the way is to identify in a clear manner the differences between opinions and then determine the size of the issue.

 

Once we have both sides to the situation in simplified formats I will do my best to include this into the Opening Post as a subject of discussion to be weighted for contributions to the complete solution we are all working towards in terms of productive feedback on the issue.

I dont have an issue with ability spam at all

 

Its just the issues that it creates

 

Theres a happy medium somewhere that has to be found

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