Why Not Remove Multishot Instead?

[geninrising]

 

 

 

So what would you put in instead of Serration? Heavy Caliber? 90% Elemental mod?

Go on, tell me which rare mod you'd use that changes your gameplay so you don't have a false choice anymore? 

 

 

 

What mods would you suggest?

Because I can tell you right away that if all damage mods are removed then mods like.

 

Increased Fire rate

Multi shot

 

Are straight up DPS increase. Then those would be the main mods that all weapons NEED to have. After that you got the boring Reload speed, more ammo, larger magazine and puncture.

 

Then what? What mods should they add that changes gameplay?

 

The reason for all the damage mods is because of progression. When you first started out you didn't have any of those mods. So when you found one it was fun and rewarding. You also got increased damage too which made it a bit easier. After several hundreds of hours you might have found Multi shot and Serration mods which was just a joy to find. Finally you could crank the damage up even further and slaughter the enemies you struggled a bit with before.

 

It was fun. With your suggestion I don't really see what I should look forward too when all damage mods are removed and all we got is utility mods that are mostly boring as hell.

 

Honestly IDK but I am not the games DEv. It's their job(literally) to find different things that can interest us and work within the game, while at the same time strike a balance between necessary and optional.

 

DE has always stated that this is a game about choices and ensuring that there is no 1 right way to play WF however the systems in place tell a different tale and it is their burden to fix it.

[LtZefar]

Honestly IDK but I am not the games DEv. It's their job(literally) to find different things that can interest us and work within the game, while at the same time strike a balance between necessary and optional.

 

DE has always stated that this is a game about choices and ensuring that there is no 1 right way to play WF however the systems in place tell a different tale and it is their burden to fix it.

 

DE has yet to do something about the abundance of crap mods for Warframes like Intruder mod and other mods from the Void. Mods that are not worth in any way. Hell I've seen people defending these mods.

 

DE hasn't added any mod in the last year that was unique or changed how the game played. What makes you think they'll suddenly do it now?

[Xpoorny]

really just all shutup...nerving the game?....are yall that stupid???

just unequip the damn mod...problem fixed...

 

some people omfg...

complaining just to complain...

you know people dont wanna go whitout multishot or any other mod

(like sacrifice wtf guys!! thats on yall whyning aholes to!! hate u for it lowsy aint got a life types)

it makes the game more fun thats why they added it in the freaking first place

and now yall complaining about there being to much diversity in the game?

cause thats what this is...yall nolifers ruin sht for the rest of us

not everyone got time to game all freaking day everyday

 

what about game less get a freaking life play this game less

so u right here with the rest of us

or people that just arent smart enough to get perfect skills for this game

that small percentage of players that go overboard and still find t4 wave60 easy

get a freaking life

 

 

same like the freaking nat problem today

all cause u wanna go and complain about nothing

it was working fine unless you got a lowsy computer or internet....spend some freaking money on it

you know this is p2p  just shut it...

like any other online game doesnt have problems there is no 100% guarantee

you cannot fix something that isnt broken

like a p2p connection from the opposite sides of the world

just need another server...thats it...it will not work to much distance

again everyone got screwed becus of a coupple whining fools

Edited January 18, 2015 by P4iNW4V3

[VDeorsum]

mmm...for me is better remove serration, multishot have other than only a damage booster, see status and crit.

[Feallike]

Heres what needs to happen:

 

Multishot needs a complete nerf for all weapons but archwing. Down to 50% at most.

 

 

Heavy Calibre needs to have its accuracy - increased to 150%. Also have decrease some weapons accuracy.

 

 

Serration can stay the same if ^ this happens.

 

 

Also decrease the Element mods damage up to 50% instead.

 

 

Serration would be perfect if all the mods that needed serration where nerfed.

 

 

 

Heavy Calibure would be a mod that can only be used with really accurate weapons or with really good aim.

 

Split chamber would be a mod that can only be used on high fire rate weapons.

 

 

Before you say High firerate weapons would be OP, if DE nerfs the accuracy on high fire rate weapons then split chamber and Heavy calibure couldn't be used together which would make a sorta balance.

 

 

Edit: How about we increase serrations cost to 17 mod points cost.

Edited January 18, 2015 by Feallike

[DeMeritus]

Let's just remove all damage enhancing mods, elemental mods, and make every single weapon nothing but a reskin of the Mk1-Braton, Lato, and skana.

 

Then they can get on with things until they get bored and return to CoD.

[Feallike]

Let's just remove all damage enhancing mods, elemental mods, and make every single weapon nothing but a reskin of the Mk1-Braton, Lato, and skana.

 

Then they can get on with things until they get bored and return to CoD.

 

You didn't include anything helpful in this post. please edit with some feedback to OP. :/

[LtZefar]

Heres what needs to happen:

 

Multishot needs a complete nerf for all weapons but archwing. Down to 50% at most.

Just making it to a boring RNG mod that won't be all that fun to use.

 

 

Heavy Calibre needs to have its accuracy - increased to 150%. Also have decrease some weapons accuracy.

 

Making it entirely useless on vast majority of the weapons because now you can't hide the broad side of a barn.

 

 

 

Also decrease the Element mods damage up to 50% instead.

 

Making the Status+Elemental one more powerful than the base Elemental mods = Broken mod balance. Lovely idea!

 

 

 

Heavy Calibure would be a mod that can only be used with really accurate weapons or with really good aim.

 

It wouldn't be able to be used on those weapons as they wouldn't be able to hit anything and things like grenade weapons would be damn near suicidal to use because of the random nature of the aim.

 

 

But thank GOD you're not in charge of balance. My god the game would be broken.

[Repligon]

After several hundreds of hours you might have found Multi shot and Serration mods which was just a joy to find. Finally you could crank the damage up even further and slaughter the enemies you struggled a bit with before.

This is where fun disappears.

When every enemy becomes variation of cannon fodder.

When enemies damage and accuracy gets so hight they can obliterate you in second because second later they all probably will be dead.

When to have a chance to kill you enemies have to posess awful gimmicks like unavoidable poisonous clouds, slash procs and homing rockets.

When the only way of balancing is to stop you from shooting. Here are your nullifiers, knockdowning helions and hordes of mutalist moas.

When game turns into continuous speedrun because the gameplay itself is boringly trivial.

When the only enjoyment comes from mission rewards rather than from game process.

When the only challenging content is a meta-endgame of endless missions.

When to hold players DE have to quickly create more and more content without leaving time on polishing old content. Because once old players get every reward - there will be nothing interesting in game anymore.

 

<stuff>

Why do you have to be so cheesy?

You sound like a kid that was kicked from game server for cheating.

Edited January 18, 2015 by Repligon

[Oberonight]

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/378285-change-multishot/

[Blakrana]

Multishot is a strange creature. Funnily enough, it existed in Dark Sector, with the logical effect that, yes, it was adding an extra bullet per shot to your weapon. Personally, my view of the matter is it could be changed to favour its Status-related traits, with the damage element entirely removed.

 

Simply put, Multi-shot doesnt make 1 shot count as 2 or more. Rather, it adds to the maximum number of Status Effects a single shot can make.

 

For example, say that Split chamber gave you +2 Extra Effects per shot. So, whilst it no longer directly modifies the relative Status by the whole 'more projectile' department, it does make for some interesting considerations.

 

Take the Vectis. Currently, mine is set up with 100% Status chance. Yeah, I don't mod for Critical on my Vectis, nor do I on my Latron Prime (Stat-Crit is Latron Wraith really). Fact is, every shot, I do something to the enemy. Debilitating foes is actually quite fun. Now imagine 3 procs a shot. That's almost delightfully malicious.

 

Now, yes, with weapons with poor Status chance, Multi-shot loses the lustre it currently has. I mean, yeah, I've basically turned an in effect 2x damage multiplier into a significantly more situational mod. But that then means that well, that's one less mod on the essential list for a high DPS weapon.

 

It does however make it possible for us to give Melee weapons their own version of a reasonable 'multi-shot' mod as, well, more Status Effects from a cut is easier to justify than 'one slash counts as two without being two'. Malicious Blade or something, I don't know, naming things on the spot ain't my strong suit.

 

Granted. I imagine that a lot of people will rightly point out that it could be considered 'necessary' to have Split Chamber and co still on High Status weapons because of Proc stacking being a thing. But then, is it really necessary? If the balancing of enemies hasn't changed and the main component of Multi-shot, damage, has been removed, would it not be a more 'your call' choice?

 

I mean, free extra Status Procs per shot? Tempting if you're like me. But then I wager a lot of people would rage, and resort to stuff to replace the lost damage. Is that a trade off? I don't know. I'm more familiar with balancing a game of cards or tabletop RPG than I am game mechanics so ingrained as they are.

 

I don't pretend to have the answer to end all answers. This is just something I'd consider a fair trade to support my preferred 'cripple, torment, destroy' approach to Status effects.

[Brandr_]

Or, we could just properly balance the game instead of taking away, or sticking in, new mods whenever we want to *fix* something

[Terrahero]

Aslong as mods are simple modifiers nothing will ever change. It will always be to simple for people to just do their basic math and conclude X is best. And then everyone will use X. So remove multishot and another mod simply takes its place, but if the damage is noticeably lower it would lead to a whole mire of needed rebalance in mob difficulty.

And what would that accomplish? A lot of work, numbers relatively remain the same, and people still use cookiecutter builds.

 

What Warframe needs before it starts deleting damage mods is mods that do something new, something else, something that isnt very measureable and finds more basis in playstyle. Mods like punch through, situationally useful with no easy to measure or calculate performance. But right now there are to few interesting mods.

[P0int.Zer0]

Some of these  mods must not be removed, BUT tweaked. The whole core of the flaw as stated in posts before is that there are to many mods you MUST equip. ALL mods should not be brainless damage buffs but a choice about how you want to modify your gunplay.   

Serration/Hornet Strike:
Those 2 should be the only 2 must mods, and Point Blank should work the same way. Give the Weapons an "Aura" slot (called "Profession" or sth) where you install these mods. You can install those right away into lvl 0 gun, but the mod levels will be unlocked as you  level the weapon up.
For example: Level 1 Soma = Serration lvl 1 activated             Level 15 Soma = Serration lvl 7 activated
So you have a steady progression in leveling, and no mod slot will be taken for the "MAY" mods, wich every other mod should be.

Split Chamber/Barrel Diffusion/Lethal Torrent:
All these mods are pure nobrainer dmg buffs. They need drawbacks. Make them corrupted!

Split Chamber: +xy multishot +xy spread
Barrel Diffusion: +xy multishot +xy spread
Lethal Torrent: +xy multishot +xy spread +xy fire rate (consumes more ammo wich is a drawback so that part is ok)

Elemental mods:
Simply put: the enemies take to much damage from elemnts, wich makes modding towards physical damage pointless.
Solution: elemental mods make a little less dmg like 50 % fully leveled and enemies grow weaker against slash/impact/puncture damage.

 

What Warframe needs before it starts deleting damage mods is mods that do something new, something else, something that isnt very measureable and finds more basis in playstyle. Mods like punch through, situationally useful with no easy to measure or calculate performance. But right now there are to few interesting mods.

+ THIS  but nothing like thunderbolt with yet another proc mechanic. Stuff like metal auger, sinister reach. Think about a mod wich lets bullets richoche from surfaces or tracer bullets wich drives enemies into cover! You get an advantage in gunplay, but sacrifice a mod slot, wich you could use for a damage mod, wich is the drawback.

THIS, is how modding should work.

Edited January 18, 2015 by P0int.Zer0

[Repligon]

Some of these mods must not be removed, BUT tweaked. The whole core of the flaw as stated in posts before is that there are to many mods you MUST equip. ALL mods should not be brainless damage buffs but a choice about how you want to modify your gunplay.

Serration/Hornet Strike:
Those 2 should be the only 2 must mods, and Point Blank should work the same way. Give the Weapons an "Aura" slot (called "Profession" or sth) where you install these mods. You can install those right away into lvl 0 gun, but the mod levels will be unlocked as you level the weapon up.
For example: Level 1 Soma = Serration lvl 1 activated Level 15 Soma = Serration lvl 7 activated
So you have a steady progression in leveling, and no mod slot will be taken for the "MAY" mods, wich every other mod should be.

Split Chamber/Barrel Diffusion/Lethal Torrent:
All these mods are pure nobrainer dmg buffs. They need drawbacks. Make them corrupted!

Split Chamber: +xy multishot +xy spread
Barrel Diffusion: +xy multishot +xy spread
Lethal Torrent: +xy multishot +xy spread +xy fire rate (consumes more ammo wich is a drawback so that part is ok)

Elemental mods:
Simply put: the enemies take to much damage from elemnts, wich makes modding towards physical damage pointless.
Solution: elemental mods make a little less dmg like 50 % fully leveled and enemies grow weaker against slash/impact/puncture damage.

I had idea like this but with Multishot being "Aura" (I called it "Core") mod too and elementals changing base damage instead of adding it on top and increasing respective element proc chance when leveled. I even made a thread about it. But people didn't liked it because "what else to mod towards if not towards damage?" and "You idiot why not you just uninstall damage mods and play solo!" Edited January 18, 2015 by Repligon

[ltlsiren]

First let me say that I don't even care if they remove my serration/heavy cal/multishot or not, all that will do is free up some extra space in my loadouts which I will use to cram in more damage mods. 

 

The only way to remove "false choice" is making all mods irrelevant to weapon damage and only affect weapon handling characteristics. By that I mean flashlights, heavy barrel, 50 red dot scopes each with a slightly different filter etc... 

 

As long as weapon mods affect our damage output, people will min/max it. Min/maxing has been there since the dawn of multiplayer gaming and its not going away with serration or multishot. There is always the "best holy pally build" "best restro druid build" "The only viable demon hunter t6 rift build" "Most efficient High sec mission running ship".

 

I don't care if they remove these mods or not, as long as the proper compensations are provided and the contents are balanced accordingly. But this whole "build diversity vs false choices" debate has been brought up so many times in so many different games and I have yet to see it yielded any fruit. I'm just not so sure if warframe could be any different.   

[Kasumi-]

DE new concept of mods - aka Mods 2.0  (as in the first devstream of the year ) is that all the necessary mod (such as serration, and in this case - split chamber) will become  stats of the weapon and can be upgrade without taking mod slot.. So let stay and see how they make it look like.

 

However, u post make me think of a ideas of use Muitishot as the balance factor between different type of guns, like between a riffle and a shotgun (u dont suprise of extra bullet from a shotgun right?). Nerf the riffle's mutilshot, buff the shotgun multishot (or keep it as now) whould be nice effort for balance.

 

About the elemental damage, i do think that DE want us to ALWAYS equip different element mod and change them when go from faction to faction so it should be fine. But as of now, the elemental damage and puncture damage dominating all over the game, leave too little choice on actually choosing the damage u want to deal (and a mod such as Prime Heavy Trauma become a abandoned child when it just being born @@, if not thank to the fact we only have Bo p as impact weap).   So, the solution is : Buff every weapon impact,puncture, slash.... Nerf the Element damage mod. 

 

The game will be much more balance between weap and weap in this way.

 

That being said, i doubt that any of the change i suggest will coming anytime soon (or if it ever happen) .... cuz u know ... it's DE, they still keep something up there sleeve (may be the Focus system that could make all this irrelevant )..

That would be Mods 3.0, actually. Mods 2.0 is what we have now.

[Innocent_Flower]

Multishot could be made into a utility mod. Any/all of these could work. 

 

 

-Burst fire on any weapon. 

-Increasing the size of the cone of damage.

-Small chance of a free bullet. 

-That cool 'two arrow' trick they do on bows in movies. Be legolas. 

-Spliting a missile into several smaller missiles. Hello carpet-bombing ogris. 

[IfritKajiTora]

That could make Shoting and melee weapons balanced, right now Shoting weapons are more powerfull than Melee.

[geninrising]

Damage scales with weapon level and potentially other choices due to their mechanics but leveling the weapon kind of acts like you are modifying the gun to fit your style either using more powder or different bullets to score more damage and is the PRIMARY source of said damage.

Multishot could be made into a utility mod. Any/all of these could work. 

 

 

-Burst fire on any weapon. 

-Increasing the size of the cone of damage.

-Small chance of a free bullet. 

-That cool 'two arrow' trick they do on bows in movies. Be legolas. 

-Spliting a missile into several smaller missiles. Hello carpet-bombing ogris. 

This is the kind of mods that would make your choice in weapons builds pure preference and cool as hell! Although the small chance of a free bullet is just a straight nerf to what we have now rather than an interesting effect like the other ideas.

 

I think ideas such as these are what DE needs to cultivate. INTERESTING mods that have flexibility and are not instantly a need it or don't need it.

 

Variations based on player PREFERENCE are the way to go.

 

 

I would also have this implemented to cement your playstyle. The aura mods could be everything from increased damage to guaranteed proc chance(tied to a specific proc type, ie: elec,toxin,fire,Ice) unsure if combo procs should be implemented as well. Additionally it could be things such as a Massive reload speed boost or Fire rate boost, I even thought that a tightening of bullet spread would be awesome for something like a shotgun or heavy MG. Basically the hornet strike/serration/point blank or some really high powered version of your chosen utility mod that can guarantee you some effect that might be left to chance in a standard build currently or might be lackluster in a current build(100% Thunderbolt on Paris prime that scales with damage output so it utilizes crit?, yes sir sign me up).

  Serration/Hornet Strike:
Those 2 should be the only 2 must mods, and Point Blank should work the same way. Give the Weapons an "Aura" slot (called "Profession" or sth) where you install these mods. You can install those right away into lvl 0 gun, but the mod levels will be unlocked as you  level the weapon up.
For example: Level 1 Soma = Serration lvl 1 activated             Level 15 Soma = Serration lvl 7 activated
So you have a steady progression in leveling, and no mod slot will be taken for the "MAY" mods, wich every other mod should be.
 

[taiiat]

The Archwing multishot mod is what all multishot mods should be.

well, there's other options.

 

ex. Mods that give +100% Multishot, -50% RoF, Et Cetera.

 

 

i really like Multishot :(

who doesn't want more projectiles to fly out of their Weapon at a time? :p

 

 

i think we can take the idea of what we had in U5/6 and try to make that work. we could have 8 Mods that have Multishot bonuses, but make some other tradeoffs and such, so that if you want more bullets spraying out, you can definitely have it. or you could have bonus Damage by means of +Damage Mods if you prefer.

 

we can do it. we can get this right. giving Players actual choices, that they can focus on as many or as few ways to increase Damage and other stats as they'd like. with all of them being viable.

 

 

 

while making Multishot Mods be a lowish Chance for double projectiles... i can't really vote for that because it's certainly entertaining to be shooting more bullets per bullet, and being able to do as much of that as possible is... well, entertaining.

but as forementioned we can make all kinds of setups viable.

 

hell, i think we should legitimately investigate into seriously trimming down on extra not very useful Mods, and having a UGC Mods system. crafting Mods.

so you could make a Mod with a +something, and a -something. and choose how many Points it would cost. and choose how many Ranks it would have. Et Cetera.

and the game would choose numbers that would keep every choice balanced!

 

i think that's the ultimate goal of Player choice. letting Players have exactly what they want, by letting them make exactly what they want.

[Feallike]

 

But thank GOD you're not in charge of balance. My god the game would be broken.

 

If you where trying to offend me you didn't do anything. :/ I was giving a suggestion. This is a feedback thread. if anything you just showed how immature you are that you have to comment to my post with nothing but negativity with no feedback on what i should have changed.

 

 

Ontopic: I like the ideas so far. Multishot being a corrupted mod is the best suggestion so far. I do feel serration/pointblank/hornet strike should be auras and since basically everything has a aura now its not a huge deal.

Edited January 18, 2015 by Feallike

[P0int.Zer0]

The only way to remove "false choice" is making all mods irrelevant to weapon damage and only affect weapon handling characteristics. By that I mean flashlights, heavy barrel, 50 red dot scopes each with a slightly different filter etc... 

 

As long as weapon mods affect our damage output, people will min/max it. Min/maxing has been there since the dawn of multiplayer gaming and its not going away with serration or multishot. There is always the "best holy pally build" "best restro druid build" "The only viable demon hunter t6 rift build" "Most efficient High sec mission running ship".

 

Nah i just want to remove dumb nobrainer mods that just push damage wih NO downside.

Fire rate mod? You burn through ammo faster, you have to reload more often  = nobrainer

Elemental mods? One element is not always the best against any enemy type = nobrainer

"There will be always one build like in all the other games"

... then give players alternatives. Otherwise everyone goes Boltor/Rhinoprime Noobcasualmode

 

[geninrising]

well, there's other options.

 

ex. Mods that give +100% Multishot, -50% RoF, Et Cetera.

 

 

i really like Multishot :(

who doesn't want more projectiles to fly out of their Weapon at a time? :p

 

 

i think we can take the idea of what we had in U5/6 and try to make that work. we could have 8 Mods that have Multishot bonuses, but make some other tradeoffs and such, so that if you want more bullets spraying out, you can definitely have it. or you could have bonus Damage by means of +Damage Mods if you prefer.

 

we can do it. we can get this right. giving Players actual choices, that they can focus on as many or as few ways to increase Damage and other stats as they'd like. with all of them being viable.

 

 

 

while making Multishot Mods be a lowish Chance for double projectiles... i can't really vote for that because it's certainly entertaining to be shooting more bullets per bullet, and being able to do as much of that as possible is... well, entertaining.

but as forementioned we can make all kinds of setups viable.

 

hell, i think we should legitimately investigate into seriously trimming down on extra not very useful Mods, and having a UGC Mods system. crafting Mods.

so you could make a Mod with a +something, and a -something. and choose how many Points it would cost. and choose how many Ranks it would have. Et Cetera.

and the game would choose numbers that would keep every choice balanced!

 

i think that's the ultimate goal of Player choice. letting Players have exactly what they want, by letting them make exactly what they want.

Bonus points for real player choice rather than static mods we live with or without! +1

[Ionus]

If you put it that way

Your logic: nerf bannner. All games should be nerfed to extremely hard and frustrating and exhausting gaming experience from the beginning where it takes 2 minutes to kill an enemy.

Atm if I want a challenge, I go fight challenging missions. They call it endgame. There I can fight the way with the logic previously mentioned. And to get there I need these mods and good gear. If I want to have lazed out gaming experience, I go with 5 forma gear to earth to fight lvl 1-3 grineer.

Thats why warframes are called ninjas.

Except there is no true difficulty in Warframe with the current nodding system. A defense mission on Mercury is EXACTLY like a mission on Pluto, except on the latter the numbers are inflated. There is no endgame in the sense you talk about. It's the same. Syndicates and Focus are supposed to be the endgame.

This isn't about nerfing. Not even close. This is about build diversity. As it is now, mutlishot and straight damage mods are REQUIRED on every build. As it is now they may as well remove two mod slots from all weapons, because they're taken up by these false choices.

But their removal does NOT mean other things will not be adjusted accordingly, assuming you can't achieve the effect of Serration by leveling the weapon itself.

These are the ideas I've seen so far that I personally believe will work:

-Make weapons increase in damage as they are leveled. At 30 it may be the full +165% damage or less depending on enemy scale adjustments.

-bullets generated by multishot are no longer "free" bullets. They will now use ammo from the reserve and the shot will be more inaccurate than the first bullet.

-elemental mods are no longer additive, but replaces a percentage of the weapons physical damage. This means if I put a max 60% shocking touch on my skana, 60% of the skana's physical damage is now electric.

-Heavy caliber and equivalent mods will either have the innacuracy rebuff increased or the damage buff decreased.

Edited January 18, 2015 by Ionus