Ember Changes [Post 15.11.0 Megathread]

[DireMoose]

Before it gets buried i'll just state once more what the vast majority of the people here and on other threads are saying.

 

MAKE HER 4TH ABILITY (WORLD ON FIRE) A TRULY TOGGLED ABILITY.

That means:

1. you press 4 to activate it and enable it.

2. you press 4 again to deactivate it.

3. it will drain a set amount of energy per sec which is modified by your energy efficiency while it is active.

4. it will not deactivate under any circumstances unless one of the following things occur:

-Dispel has been used by the stalker

-You press 4 while it is active

-You are within a nullifier's shield

-You die

-You walk out of bounds and are placed back where you were previously standing (In other words, you fall down one of those bottomless pits)

 

I'm pretty sure this is what everyone meant before the buff when they said "toggle 4" but just in case this is what they meant.

[Azawarau]

It's not that the damage is bad by any means. It's that the cost/effectiveness ratio is skewed. In addition it's one of the only abilities in game that duration will cost you more energy, discounting mirage's ult due to the bonus factor of hitting 20 targets in up to 100m(measured through use of multiple synoid gamacores on Pluto, Cerberus all aligned along the left hand side of the map;longest side) radius and the added bonus effect upon cancellation of the ult, which warrants increased energy cost.

 

Additionally WITHOUT the use of accelerant the damage falls off quite fast in later content thus guaranteeing that accelerant must constantly be used as both a cc tool and damage boost in order to maintain effectiveness.

As far as ive gone i havnt needed accelerant through lvl 35 grineer aside from stun utility

 

Also my post was specifically for people saying her damage is bad

 

We all know the cost of WoF but it has to be worth it. Right now it isnt as functional as it could be as a straight toggle

[RealPandemonium]

Yo, make duration make it cost less energy/sec, effectively increasing its duration potential for those who want long WoFs.  Then people can choose the playstyle they prefer without being penalized for adding a stat.

[(PSN)SilverKarasu]

Yo, make duration make it cost less energy/sec, effectively increasing its duration potential for those who want long WoFs.  Then people can choose the playstyle they prefer without being penalized for adding a stat.

 

 

Yo,

 

I heard you like duration.

 

So I put some duration in your duration so you can increase your duration for the cost of a lower duration for the duration of your playstyle duration.

 

 

EDIT: .... duration.

Edited January 26, 2015 by (PS4)SilverKarasu

[jmforeman02]

Instead of making WoF have no target cap. I think a better idea would be to make each plume of fire AoE. As of right now a plume could consume 2 or 3 enemies at once, but will only damage the one targeted by the ability. It looks pretty silly and just fixing this would expand WoF usefulness considerably without being overpowered, like it would be without a target cap. Without a target cap, everyone in the area would simply burn to death as soon as they entered range. That would be pretty OP. And the duration cap has definitely GOT TO GO!

Edited January 26, 2015 by jmforeman02

[Rankii]

Before it gets buried i'll just state once more what the vast majority of the people here and on other threads are saying.

 

MAKE HER 4TH ABILITY (WORLD ON FIRE) A TRULY TOGGLED ABILITY.

That means:

1. you press 4 to activate it and enable it.

2. you press 4 again to deactivate it.

3. it will drain a set amount of energy per sec which is modified by your energy efficiency while it is active.

4. it will not deactivate under any circumstances unless one of the following things occur:

-Dispel has been used by the stalker

-You press 4 while it is active

-You are within a nullifier's shield

-You die

-You walk out of bounds and are placed back where you were previously standing (In other words, you fall down one of those bottomless pits)

 

I'm pretty sure this is what everyone meant before the buff when they said "toggle 4" but just in case this is what they meant.

This! This, so much! Really I feel like they're overthinking how WoF should work.  Being able to keep it going like how it's described by volcanix would also help with damage since it'd be a near constant thing (assuming you have the energy to burn) you'd be free to collect more energy for her other skills, while also using your weapons. Really Maybe a .5% boost in overall strength to her damaging skills and she'd be pretty decent.

 

Not great. Just decent.

[ThePresident777]

The Ember Nerf of 2015 just sends the message to not ask for buffs because it's just going to get worse.  It's a terribly oppositional message.  And, it stands in opposition to what The Core of Warframe is:  4 Tenno Devastate a Massive Army.

 

For Reference:

Warframe: Developer Q&A , Answer to Question 4:

The core is the 4 guys against a massive army.  And, generally speaking, they are devastating. The core is not something like in Gears of War where the one on one is something a bit more balanced.  One Space Ninja against a whole ship of Grineer is the idea.  But, that needs to be balanced by boss battles, and by like desperate scenarios.  But, generally speaking, the whole idea of it, even an old ninja (right?) is that the untrained militia get devastated by a single one.

 

There was no reason to turn it into a toggle at all.  Toggles imply energy drain, which drains the more duration is added.

Edited January 26, 2015 by ThePresident777

[Azawarau]

Instead of making WoF have no target cap. I think a better idea would be to make each plume of fire AoE. As of right now a plume could consume 2 or 3 enemies at once, but will only damage the one targeted by the ability. It looks pretty silly and just fixing this would expand WoF usefulness considerably without being overpowered, like it would be without a target cap. Without a target cap, everyone in the area would simply burn to death as soon as they entered range. That would be pretty OP. And the duration cap has definitely GOT TO GO!

If the aoE worked like fireball with a lower damage rate itd be fair enough

 

Even without it may be fair if the range is something like 2-3 meters

 

But Volt needs some love in this case

 

Itll push his ult farther down the  "only a stun" thing

 

The Ember Nerf of 2015 just sends the message to not ask for buffs because it's just going to get worse.  It's a terribly oppositional message.  And, it stands in opposition to what The Core of Warframe is:  4 Tenno Devastate a Massive Army.

 

For Reference:

 

There was no reason to turn it into a toggle at all.  Toggles imply energy drain, which drains the more duration is added.

I think you have a problem with basic math

 

Actually i think you have a problem with common sense and basic reading comprehension

[ensignvidiot]

On Note 1, I am guilty as charged.

But i just finished a Run on Stephano (figured the multidude of enemies would be good to test with) with the following Warframe build:

http://warframe-builder.com/Warframes/Builder/Ember_prime/t_30_020004002_1-5-10-2-4-10-3-8-5-4-7-5-5-6-5-6-0-5-13-3-3-479-1-7-481-2-7_6-11-479-6-481-11-13-13-2-12-1-7-5-9-4-9-3-18_0/en/1-0-4

 

And here is my Gripe-sheet:

 

The Armor increase is nice, my sheilds can drop and I wont immediately follow suit.

 

Having more Sprint-speed and stamina is a plus too, I find that a non-moving ember is a dead one.

 

The New Fireblast mechanic I both love and hate:

On one hand, I get an AoE Knockdown... that doesnt have a whole lot of damnage.

On the Other, the AoE Knockdown also knocks back... the enemies... that would have taken damage from Fireblast itself.

Since the ability now shoves enemies outside its effect, it does little to no damage now.

 

...but its spammable, so now I can chain-stun with Ember

 

World on Fire

 

WIth Primed Continuity, Constitution, and Streamline... I felt like i was playing a Blind-Rage energy Cost... for no additional damage or utility.

It still functions the same, I cast, run around, and things die.

If I spam Accellerant during its effect and run out of energy it now ends immediately.

I can now toggle it, but its not cost efficient to... as recasting will cost me another chunk of energy up front.

Thankfully Carrier can refil my energy with orbs while its still up, but Energy Drops are a no-go (I have not yet tested energy vampire).

 

This needs more damage if you want to keep both the timer and the energy drain.  Or to go with One or the Other.

Preferably, i would like World on Fire to be Channeled Only, take duration out of the equation for the warframe (aside for fireblast) and give Fleeting Expertise builds a chance to shine on ember.

 

TL:DR New Fireblast needs more tweaks to be useful. New World on Fire needs to die in a Fire.

 

 

After this old post, I tried Ember with the new Target-Priority/FireProc boost, and I can say that I am 90% Satisfied with where Ember is now.

 

While i do with the "up-front" cost of WoF was cheaper, I can live with it.

And I wish the Base radius of fireblast was boosted to compensate for knocking enemies out of the lingering fire, but again, I can live with it.

 

My Phoenix shall burn brightly again.

[DireMoose]

The Ember Nerf of 2015 just sends the message to not ask for buffs because it's just going to get worse.  It's a terribly oppositional message.  And, it stands in opposition to what The Core of Warframe is:  4 Tenno Devastate a Massive Army.

 

For Reference:

 

There was no reason to turn it into a toggle at all.  Toggles imply energy drain, which drains the more duration is added.

please be aware that by automatically deactivating the ability after the timer ends, the player must spend an ADDITIONAL 50 energy just to reactivate it. that is precious in game seconds lost and a whole equally precious accelerant lost. remove the timer. make the chicken a pheonix.

[geninrising]

please be aware that by automatically deactivating the ability after the timer ends, the player must spend an ADDITIONAL 50 energy just to reactivate it. that is precious in game seconds lost and a whole equally precious accelerant lost. remove the timer. make the chicken a pheonix.

Agreed, to hell with the chicken. Hail to the rise of the Phoenix!

[MrNonApplicable]

"Ember's in a good place now."

 

DE's official response from the devstream.

 

This thread is officially useless because DE honestly believe that they made Ember good. Meanwhile Volt and even Hydroid are better than her at almost everything.

 

All is lost.

 

It's over, folks.

Nah we'll just keep this thread firmly at the top till she is tweaked a bit more. DE should never rest until their clients are at least not foaming at the mouth for various reasons.

 

1. Fix Fire Blast's finnicky LoS checks.

2. Make WoF a set duration of 10 seconds with no additional cost or a true toggle. If set to a pure 10 seconds remove all target limit and make it a true aoe damage constant for all enemies that enter.

"Ember's in a good place now."

 

You know I feel like no one at DE mains a ember. So when they did the changes they jumped on played a few level 20 infested missions and went yeah that's perfect. Ive spent months telling my friends that DE is a proper gaming company that cares about their work, but like..this is silly. Its not even like they were not going in the right direction with it. The armor, stamina, speed buff, cast speed change and fireblast changes were all good, great in fact (ignoring the 2 years it took to get there).

 

All she needed to be a top tier frame you could take to places without being asked to play something else was a bit more range on her ability's.

Or a bit more damage on her ability's,

Or no more duration reliance on her ability's.

 

I spent 12 hours yesterday running 40 wave t3 defenses just to get a handle on how she scales from easy enemies to difficult enemies. The end result, not actually bad, between Fireblast, Accelerant with a Fire/Corrosive Some Prime, I held my half of the map as the Nyx Meditated to protect the pod, thing is as the runs went on I realized something, by the time we were 20 waves into the 4th run I wasn't ulting anymore.

 

I was still using Fireball as a super long range emergency panic tool.

I was spamming the crap out of Accelerant, <3 that skill.

I was using fire-blast to position things better in-case they stopped attacking the Nyx, or were trying to attack her with the pod in the way.

 

My ult tho, just wasn't worth touching. DE, You designed this game so we know you can put thought into your frames, you designed all these beautiful toggle ults on the frames I feel you just enjoyed the concept of more.

 

Nyx's knockdown and massive damage absorb nuke.

The Mesa's Amazing DPS Turret.

Banshee locks down the world. Mirage is a DPS disco ball that can be used with natural talent to blind spam people.

Even the damn Limbo Ult, we used to scream at our friend because he maxed out the duration and range. Making it impossible to loot while in Epilepsy Land, now that he can turn it off at will its an amazing ability to take along to survivals.

 

You have an ability called World on Fire DE, actually sit down, get creative and make it amazing. I know its extra work to redesign an entire ability, to change it visually, and mechanically is a lot of effort, but haven't the ember players waited long enough to be able to see their frame as anything other then a Banshee with a poorly designed ult and infinitely less scaling damage on her gun.

 

The joke is, While I believe this will be read, while I believe you care, I know this as well as every other ember players cries of we need help will be ignored. Its understandable to your working on tons of new content to excite and amaze, you legitimately have no free time to go back and work on frames most people don't enjoy.

 

So i'm just going to end with, Thank you for the update to Ember, the changes were on the whole a massive boost from where we were. Whenever you get the chance however sometime in the future. Kindly just redesign her ultimate, make it something amazing that players are like, DAMN, what is that frame and where do I get it! and the old players are like This is amazing, im gonna take this thing to my hour long t4 survival and show off.

 

Thanks

It's futile, Devstream #45 "Ember is in a good place now".

 

They think the added proc made it all balanced now due to the added CC and DoT. They don't even realize that, let's say Radial Javelin of Excal needs much lesser energy to do much more damage than WoF in a bigger range "instantly" and with an additional stagger.

 

It's over.

Radial Javelin's current design is one of the biggest debacles in Warframe's design history.  The sooner such powers are abolished, the better.  

 

DE doesn't have a good feel for what players experience, as far as I see.  They're in this weird place between casual and hardcore players that doesn't really allow them the analytical capacity to gauge how things feel vs how they would feel in an ideal (or closer to ideal) state.  It's almost like they're balancing someone else's game but they don't actually play that game very much so there's a fuzzy disconnect pervading their stewardship of the product overall.

This is what I always thought too.

 

 

I think you guys have perfectly captured my feelings about this topic right now, and any future "balancing" warframe gets. After the Devstream I just didn't want to read this valid input because it just felt like a waste of time and effort. It feels like we're banging our heads against a wall just trying to help DE to get their game into a nice place.

 

 

The Ember Nerf of 2015 just sends the message to not ask for buffs because it's just going to get worse.  It's a terribly oppositional message.  And, it stands in opposition to what The Core of Warframe is:  4 Tenno Devastate a Massive Army.

 

For Reference:

 

There was no reason to turn it into a toggle at all.  Toggles imply energy drain, which drains the more duration is added.

 

 

Yeah, I would be anxious what future buffs might change whilst ignoring community suggestions.

[geninrising]

Don't worry man we're firmly behind you on this one. This will continue to get multiple rounds of exposure from me on a daily basis until things have been weighed, measured and NOT found wanting.

 

However let me change my statement above as I have been reviewing how broken it would be to have a full aoe toggle or even a full no target capped WoF.  With the means of multiplying it's damage via Accelerant I can see why the target cap in addition I can see why the toggle exists in combination with the duration. The reason for this is the fact that without it Ember continues down that path of p#2W.

 

Now let me say that it is not in a healthy place atm. This is due to the fact that while it is a toggle duration ability like Mirage's it does not have the final effect like Mirage's that accounts for the increased cost over one and done 100 energy casts.

 

Additionally WoF's current iteration HEAVILY penalizes players that do not use efficiency in their builds. It is unfair to those players to require that they be screwed for no reason. Also players that use duration get the business with no lube.

 

That's 2 different groups of players that get a raw deal and unfortunately one of those players is certainly not pressing 4 2 win without efficiency in the build to begin with.

 

Now to Fireblast.

 

Current concerns are that FB is actually counter productive in it's base effect. The fire ring is completely useless now as most enemies cannot even touch it due to how their AI is coded. FIX THE ENEMY AI TO DISREGARD THE RINGS. Why is it that one power should be so unfairly treated as to actually code a behavior of avoidance?

 

Let us also add that enemies inside the original rings circumference should be pushed to the ring and no further. I am absolutely sure you can cause the area of effect of the larger ring to begin outside the circumference and a smaller one to originate with a small push from the center, the repel augment for Vauban illustrates the mechanic working quite well already in fact.

[TerraNovaX]

Before it gets buried i'll just state once more what the vast majority of the people here and on other threads are saying.

 

MAKE HER 4TH ABILITY (WORLD ON FIRE) A TRULY TOGGLED ABILITY.

That means:

1. you press 4 to activate it and enable it.

2. you press 4 again to deactivate it.

3. it will drain a set amount of energy per sec which is modified by your energy efficiency while it is active.

4. it will not deactivate under any circumstances unless one of the following things occur:

-Dispel has been used by the stalker

-You press 4 while it is active

-You are within a nullifier's shield

-You die

-You walk out of bounds and are placed back where you were previously standing (In other words, you fall down one of those bottomless pits)

 

I'm pretty sure this is what everyone meant before the buff when they said "toggle 4" but just in case this is what they meant.

Signal Boost! This is what the community wants, and in the end, it wont be a major drawback. An Ember with a constantly going WoF "might" do more damage over time than other frames, but only hitting a max of 3 targets, really lowering overall output. Where as a repeated cast will apply fire procs and instant damage on 5. This will cause Ember players to choose, Leave it constantly on? Or recast it to get the proc stun and instant damage?

 

If anything, it makes Ember more rewarding for a more skilled player who thinks instead of blindly jumps about.

[Soul.Fire]

Thought I might add that the radial blast on fire blast doesn't trigger the panic effect from the ember augment, which sucks. Plus apparently some people are saying it has LoS.

It actually does, it won't knock down what you're not looking directly at. If you can't see it in front or barely to the side of your frame's face, it won't fall over. And on top of that, the changes to WoF have absolutely got to go, they're so bad that I can't solo even a low level mission anymore without using all of my revives.

[RealPandemonium]

And on top of that, the changes to WoF have absolutely got to go, they're so bad that I can't solo even a low level mission anymore without using all of my revives.

The WoF changes are a buff overall except for if you ran a long duration WoF.  If you can't solo a low level mission with Ember there's something wrong, WoF or no.  

[geninrising]

The WoF changes are a buff overall except for if you ran a long duration WoF.  If you can't solo a low level mission with Ember there's something wrong, WoF or no.  

Agreed. The only problems you should encounter are once enemies can kill you in a couple of shots IE levels 37 or higher.

 

That still does not tackle the issue of WOF being biased towards low duration builds thus removing the potential for long duration builds due to the prohibitive cost vs value ratio on WoF. I myself am known to run builds with no efficiency at all in them. Ember was one of them thus I am penalized further for said playstyle than others that utilize efficiency.

[Riot_Inducer]

So, haven't read most of the thread but thought I'd throw my two cents in having played with the updated ember a bit.

 

Overall I'm quite happy with the changes. The base stat boosts make Ember a lot more reliable with her short range abilities and less prone to keel over before she can let off her abilities for maximum effect. Fire blast finally feels worth using, great having more CC and nice having the cool factor of the eximus style wall of fire. 

 

The only change that's got me scratching my head a bit is the toggle for world on fire. Idk, the toggle feels a tad pointless in it's current state, basically you can cancel it early to save some energy I guess? Sure you can do that with Mirage's Prism but Prism also has an effect for canceling it making it good for more than just saving a bit of energy.

 

Seems to me the best thing to do with it is either remove the duration so the toggle has a real meaning beyond saving an extra 10 energy here and there or give it an on cancel effect similar to Prism so the early cancel can be used tactically. 

[EmptyDevil]

Keeping my fingers crossed for an update on wednesday. WoF needs to be a true toggle with no duration or to have a worthy effect added to it if you cancel the ability like Prism.

[LisRestall]

I salute you guys, too much dedication. I have already given up after watching Devstream #45.

 

Their judgement on how the added proc makes WoF all-good literally makes me facepalm. Initially hits 5 targets, it would hit what? with it's base 15m range it won't hit sh*t, putting OE makes it's damage sh*t.

 

Heat proc does what, 50% of the initial damage, if the initial damage was huge to begin with then we would be happy but 50% of sh*t damage dealt 7 times over 6 seconds would result to 7 times of half the original sh*tty damage. No matter what you do, sh*t multiplied by 7 just gives you 7 sh*t. Who even has the time to wait for 6s so you would get the full damage dealt by WoF on a very fast paced game in the first place? Or maybe DE would want that since they test stuff on most likely Apollodorus.

 

Now I'm just looking forward to the strict NAT fix. Forget about Ember, it's over.

[RealPandemonium]

I salute you guys, too much dedication. I have already given up after watching Devstream #45.

 

Their judgement on how the added proc makes WoF all-good literally makes me facepalm. Initially hits 5 targets, it would hit what? with it's base 15m range it won't hit sh*t, putting OE makes it's damage sh*t.

 

Heat proc does what, 50% of the initial damage, if the initial damage was huge to begin with then we would be happy but 50% of sh*t damage dealt 7 times over 6 seconds would result to 7 times of half the original sh*tty damage. No matter what you do, sh*t multiplied by 7 just gives you 7 sh*t. Who even has the time to wait for 6s so you would get the full damage dealt by WoF on a very fast paced game in the first place? Or maybe DE would want that since they test stuff on most likely Apollodorus.

 

Now I'm just looking forward to the strict NAT fix. Forget about Ember, it's over.

This post is sensational.  Heat proc immobilizes enemies for 6 seconds, doing 50% bonus damage immediately and 300% more bonus damage over those 6 seconds.  My Accelerant-boosted WoF does over 5000 damage per tick, which is hardly "S#&amp;&#036;," and over 850 without Accelerant (this is with max efficiency and a 5.5 second WoF.)  Ember's optimal build was buffed overall by the changes.  The problem lies with deviant builds, which include long duration WoF, less than 45% range mods, and less than max efficiency.  There's a fine line between "you're building wrong" and "there's only one build," but Ember is definitely more on the side of the latter at the moment, even more so than before the changes.  

[GibberingEevee]

This post is sensational.  Heat proc immobilizes enemies for 6 seconds, doing 50% bonus damage immediately and 300% more bonus damage over those 6 seconds.  My Accelerant-boosted WoF does over 5000 damage per tick, which is hardly "S#&$," and over 850 without Accelerant (this is with max efficiency and a 5.5 second WoF.)  Ember's optimal build was buffed overall by the changes.  The problem lies with deviant builds, which include long duration WoF, less than 45% range mods, and less than max efficiency.  There's a fine line between "you're building wrong" and "there's only one build," but Ember is definitely more on the side of the latter at the moment, even more so than before the changes.  

 

How on earth is a Duration build for Ember a "deviant" build? 3 of her 4 abilities were improved by Duration.

[MrNonApplicable]

This post is sensational.  Heat proc immobilizes enemies for 6 seconds, doing 50% bonus damage immediately and 300% more bonus damage over those 6 seconds.  My Accelerant-boosted WoF does over 5000 damage per tick, which is hardly "S#&$," and over 850 without Accelerant (this is with max efficiency and a 5.5 second WoF.)  Ember's optimal build was buffed overall by the changes.  The problem lies with deviant builds, which include long duration WoF, less than 45% range mods, and less than max efficiency.  There's a fine line between "you're building wrong" and "there's only one build," but Ember is definitely more on the side of the latter at the moment, even more so than before the changes.  

Yeah, but accelerant is a cop-out power in place of the raw damage buff ember needs.

She already has CC in her fire blast now.

A fire frame conjures the image of a damage dealer, but this frame needs one ability constantly spammed to maintain that ability. It's a flawed concept, even though I acknowledge it still works.

[Soul.Fire]

How on earth is a Duration build for Ember a "deviant" build? 3 of her 4 abilities were improved by Duration.

I know, I used to get a 45 second WoF and a whole whopping 15 meter range that actually targeted living enemies as opposed to targeting three and leaving the one damaging and ultimately killing you completely alone, and I only used it when asked or when soloing and my friends loved it. Didn't hardly ever have to be revived either, but now with people deciding it's a 'deviant build' and the subsequent atrocious nerf I have to either die every 15 seconds, rethink my build and do what all the other sheep do, or just not play her. She was meant for duration for god's sake.

Edited January 27, 2015 by Soul.Fire

[RealPandemonium]

Because of Accelerant's mechanics Ember is optimized with max efficiency, Stretch, and strength mods. Narrow Minded kills range too much and adding more than one duration mod is a waste of mod space as an 8 second Accelerant lasts for a whole fire proc and a 5-8 second WoF is functional after the latest revision.  Having a 30m Accelerant for 12.5 energy allows great flexibility and puts Ember in a solid position viability-wise (some would argue she excels, but those people get pilloried on the forums.)  The main problem is that adding too much duration makes WoF less efficient instead of more efficient and that Narrow Minded kills Accelerant's efficacy anyway.  Ember should be able to open an alternate build path with more duration if the player desires but that is not possible at the moment; that is what needs to be fixed.  Accelerant's skew towards range and efficiency also limits build options somewhat but this is true for most frames.  Perhaps an augment could be implemented that somehow reduces or eliminates Accelerant's reliance on those two stats to open new build paths?