Ember Changes [Post 15.11.0 Megathread]

[geninrising]

oops my mistake I misread your Comment Real

Edited January 22, 2015 by geninrising

[AlphaHorseman]

So we are at 90 clearly negative posts about this change, approximately 10 positive(5 of which have not tested it at all and so cannot count) and roughly 98 either arguing about things or laughing at how bad the "balance" changes or attempted "buffs" work out(these are mostly pokes at whomever is in charge of balance)

Haha, Grineeer (Scott), I think you should come and see this thread. I believe Scott is the one that looks at and buffs/nerfs/reworks frames.

[geninrising]

Haha, Grineeer (Scott), I think you should come and see this thread. I believe Scott is the one that looks at and buffs/nerfs/reworks frames.

That's kind of my point. and I hope someone copies and pastes my posts for him. I have already copied them to notepad myself and if someone does remove them I will just repost them with updated numbers from one of several accounts. Honestly I no longer care after DERebecca removing posts earlier today and warning me for being upset SMH

 

Of course I will go through and every 20 or so posts from here on out give them a tally so they don't have to dig to come to a consensus.

Edited January 22, 2015 by geninrising

[(PSN)SilverKarasu]

Look, to help alleviate the continual strife on these forums, let's just do this directly: DE Team, exactly what is your vision for Ember? Is she a caster? Tank? In-between? Sure you can ask a bunch of strangers from all over the world to help you make the game, but without a clear vision of what you want to do, you're just going to generate strife and will get people fighting due to conflicting desires. Maybe you do have a clear vision, but if so, be more forthcoming with it. So, help the players help you - tell them exactly how you see Ember. No need to get into specifics, but set a goal for the community to reach. Then, they can have a good discussion on it and real progress can be made. Human beings must have some type of structure within which to operate - if not, they will then become disorderly.

 

This exactly. I'm not sure how DE expects to get decent feedback when we don't know what they're trying to do.

 

It's like when your daughter comes up to show you a picture she drew and you go, "Wow, that's a cute puppy." And then she bursts into tears and cries, "It's mommy gardening!"

Give us a statement on your vision for Ember and we'll test her in that respect. That way you can get feedback you can really use and we can stop getting mad when she doesn't act like what we think she should do.

 

 

EDIT: Spelling, etc.

Edited January 22, 2015 by (PS4)SilverKarasu

[Nosferagon]

I seriously believe most balance changes, at least for numbers, are simply done by rolling a pair of die.

"Oh, our new Synoid Gammacor's roll came out bad and the community thinks its garbage, better roll again! Oh look, two sixes! Guess it's gonna be the best gun ever now!"

"Kohm came out pretty poorly with snake eyes, lemme try again!" A six and a three, not bad, but lets have another go at it! A six and a five, that's more like it!"

"Panthera is pretty poor on the damage, lets see if we can buff it up. Oh, a six and a one, that's enough to buff it's secondary fire but I guess the primary fire is stuck being &!$$ poor!"

This explains the poor Rakta and Paracyst; they are just cursed with bad luck.

 

I get they they want to have tiers in their weapons, and honestly considering how many there are, i think they should. But warframes? The blood of this game? its distinguishing feature? that which the game is named after? bugger that. i'm not even asking to make all the warframes overpowered or nothing. but having useless skills that aren't worth their cost? skills that don't keep up with the game itself? Ultimates that are overall worse than other skills a warframe might possess? Doing things just because they are cool, no matter how much it has evolved the game, can only take you so far. Logic has to come in at some point.

 

As for Ember in particular, since she's the purpose of this thread and considering/assuming all the frames should be equally viable, lets make a small comparison in Ultimates:

Just Like Ember, Ash is a Damage oriented frame. His ult does 2000 base damage at rank 3, hits up to 15 targets and makes him invulnerable for the duration of it. also any target that hasn't died from the initial strike gets attacked again. However, since he has a ton of fans, no one bats an eye.

And Mirage - the only Warframe whose ability is similar to the changes presented here - without mods has low damage, however it is perfectly balanced by its range, the ability to hit entire areas and gives her cc and survivability in the form of an end of skill blind that can be triggered at any time.

Ember, in comparison, has low damage, can only hit three targets at a time, provides her with no survivability,and has negligible crowd control. Also if they state that her damage can be buffed by accelerant i ask you this: Why have an in-game ability with a cost that serves as a bandaid to her damage problems? shouldn't it synergise and improve her other skills, and not what it currently does, that is trying to keep her up to par?

 

its these kind of disparities that i wish would disappear. is it really that hard?

[RiouHotaru]

Once again, I'll point out, that the inability to pick-up energy is a bug.  It should be working like Mirage's Prism.

 

And really, WoF is the same was Prism, except that turning it off has no secondary effect besides saving you energy from running the full duration.

 

I think that's a perfectly line trade-off.

 

As far as Fire Blast's fire wave, it's just like the excimus version, which requires LOS to hit.  If you're behind cover, it won't hit you.

[Hallowieners]

Once again, I'll point out, that the inability to pick-up energy is a bug.  It should be working like Mirage's Prism.

 

And really, WoF is the same was Prism, except that turning it off has no secondary effect besides saving you energy from running the full duration.

 

I think that's a perfectly line trade-off.

 

As far as Fire Blast's fire wave, it's just like the excimus version, which requires LOS to hit.  If you're behind cover, it won't hit you.

 

World on Fire is definitely not the same as Prism deals way more damage, without target limit, and a potential to have a very large range. It also does not require the user to be hugging enemies to deal damage. Fire Blast's wave doesn't even knock down enemies, and looks really underwhelming. 

[TypeSaber]

Ive always seen Ember as a Tank/CC frame. Her solider like demeanor and style. Combined with her blitzkrieg like style of play. However I played ember when she had Overheat so well yeh..

 

Honestly having seen the Ember threads come and go since the original overheat Nerf. What always annoyed me was people calling her a caster. She is and always has been a terrible caster frame, Her Damage was just never good enough to explain this caster frame status. Especially when she is so damn slow. Honestly I felt her damage should  just come from combining her abilitys, and using heat damage weapons. Sorta like a banshee but with Fire instead of having to aim. The main focus of her ability however is the Fire Panic, The stuns, Dashing into groups of enemys to lock them down and make your teammates do more damage by shooting them.

 

A true BlitzKrieg frame. If I was to change her ult. This is how I would do it.

 

World on Fire.

(A no animation toggle that causes everyone to be set on fire for fire Dot Damage. Power Strength variable for how much. Everyone is stunned for as long as they burn during this time, during this time Ember herself is also set on fire. No stunned, but taking the same DoT damage.)

 

This would make it a Area Lockdown, that is mobile and cheap *with efficiency mods maxed) but at the cost of burning her life away to keep it going.

 

The fire damage and stun would combine well with her other abilitys.

 

Fire Blast:

Add the full knockdown and pushback from the Fire Eximus.

 

To ember herself. Give her more armor and more energy. Give her enough armor to survive in the front lines. And enough energy to spam her skills as much as possible.

 

Anyways thats my thoughts. Just wanted to share them

 

Godspeed DE. Regardless of how you do it. Just give us an ember we can love again.

[TuxedoMask00]

Well i just used ember prime in a t4 survival up to 40 minutes lead the squad in damage and only died once here are my thoughts. 1. The fireblast mechanic should be given a higher chance for knockdown or be guaranteed knockdown then its perfect. 2. WOF energy drain should be reduced, it should hit everything on screen, or the duration needs to be increased. The skill can be fixed several ways but the point is it needs to be fixed. The squad had a nekros and a trinity ( trin wasnt as generous with energy as they could've been) and i still used 2 or 3 large energy pads, the energy consumption of WOF is too much in the long run. After fireblast and WOF are further adressed Ember should be fine. I kept WOF up constantly used acclerant to buff damage as enemies began to scale used fireball to take out heavies from across the room and fireblast for that quick stun (as well as accelerant) when the squad was getting overwhelmed. I have pictures of my build and the mission results but i'm not sure how to upload I dont post on the forums much >.<

[Coatduck]

You missed the part that the cost is affected by efficiency.

My world on fire cost 1 energy per second, last for 15 s so in total it only cost me around 50 energy, which is halved of the original.

 

My mistake. further tests needed.

----

It's costing me around 4 energy per second, which means it is affected by efficiency.

Yes, it is affected by efficiency. With max efficiency and max duration, before the change it was costing 25 energy. After the change, the exact same thing costs 47.75 energy.

(Plus what I imagine is a bugged 6 additional energy, making it 53.75, which turns out to be more than double)

[geninrising]

Yes, it is affected by efficiency. With max efficiency and max duration, before the change it was costing 25 energy. After the change, the exact same thing costs 47.75 energy.

(Plus what I imagine is a bugged 6 additional energy, making it 53.75, which turns out to be more than double)

Hence my stance that it is a blatant nerf and in no way alleviates the issue that the ability was dead to begin with and will not fair better until the duration is completely removed. Then at least builds can be created without factoring in duration to make the skill useful.

 

The damage is not great enough no matter the build to create a p42w scenario really so it is a safe play to just remove duration and make it a pure toggle and prevent vamp/energy pack restoration.

 

Even at the expense of base range it would be fine as long as the duration is removed. Hoe can they even think a toggle is a benefit at all? There is no effect whatsoever to justify the toggle+duration Idea vs the duration it began with SMH

[ThePresident777]

 

Ember Changes:

 

• World On Fire is now a toggle ability with a 50 Energy cost on cast. It will drain 5 energy over time as well as consider your power duration (affected by mods).

 

People keep trying to pass this off as a buff but it's not.  It's. A. Nerf.

 

50 energy + 10 seconds * 5 energy / second = 100 energy, like before the nerf.

 

Now, add +130% duration:

 

50 energy + 10 * (1 + 1.3) seconds * 5 energy / second = 50 + 23 *5 = 165 energy.  That's an extra 65 energy that you didn't have to pay before update 15.11.  It's. A. Nerf.

 

I tested it in game and yes, we are paying for duration mods now where as we didn't before update 15.11.  It's. A. Nerf.

[MotherofHermes]

What was everyone's problem before: 

 

FIREBLAST IS OUTCLASSED IN EVERY WAY BY WOF. (insert grovels and yelling here)

 

what is the problem now: 

 

WOF IS OUTCLASSED IN EVERY WAY BY FIREBLAST.

 

you moved the issues around. You need to give ember something that isn't a radial damage attack if you want things to be different. what she has now is fine in a heal heavy team of 4, but soloing ember feels extremely punishing currently. 

 

I like ember, but the amount of time i spent oom and/or dead when soloing is only slightly less than before. 

[--Q--Guther]

I READ EMBER'S UPCOMING CHANGES EARLY AND FORCIBLY USED EMBER FOR ONE WHOLE DAY TO TEST ACTUAL DIFFERENCES BETWEEN EMBER'S USAGE, BEFORE AND AFTER HER PATCH.

 

GIVE THIS ANALYSIS A READ:

 

well ember did receive and overall STATS buff, and fireblast gimmick.

 

but consider this:

 

-people parrot that ember takes 75% damage of what she took before. let me remind you that the damage reduction only kicks in and only when shields are depleted. and in that situation, what used to take 3 bullets to down you just takes 4 now. I didnt eat bullets any more than i did before, not that i wanted to.

 

-none of her toolkit mitigates taking health damage, unlike oberon, trinity, or valkyr who can quickly and almost safely restore what little health their armor values could protect. this is unless you're forcibly running lifestrike or a lifesteal furis. but once i was down to 234 hp, I'm stuck at 234 hp for good.

 

-fireblast doesnt knockdown, but only knocks back enemies. the corpus crewmen i fireblasted were pretty much still firing in my face as the growing wall of fire bounched them back. it doesnt guarantee a panic proc to stop them shooting unless you have the firefright augment on, and the fire wall doesnt do anything to enemies taking cover behind boxes, meaning every cast with the intent to knock them back has to be placed right in front of their gunpoints, where ember cannot afford to be.

 

-the world of fire change is, despite a supposed change to prevent wastage of its duration when there are no enemies around, a nerf in practicality. the skill is toggled for 50, and kept on for 5 per second, and up to 10 seconds at max level.

 

        unmodded, new WOF does the same thing as the old one, 10 seconds of explosions for 100 cost.

 

        with duration mods, that say increases duration to 15 secs, old WOF costs 100 to keep on for 15 secs, new WOF costs 150.

 

        if duration is increased to 20 secs, old WOF still costs 100, while new WOF costs 200.

 

        and REMEMBER , during new WOF's exploding period, you CANNOT pick up energy orbs, your energy siphon deactivates, trinity's vampire CANNOT restore your energy, this just makes the net energy cost for casting the next WOF or your other skills that much higher, IF you decide to keep WOF on for long. the longer WOF is kept on, the longer you are prevented from recovering energy.

 

        the old WOF costs 100 for 20 seconds, throughout its duration even in solo play, i kill 12 mobs and i manage to pick 75 energy up, to prepare for its next use. Also, my ultility of my other 3 skills are much less affected, since my energy siphon continues to regenerate and i can pick up energy orbs as per norm. At the end of 20 secs, i look back and feel kinda wasted about those excess explosions that didnt hit any mobs. THATS ALL.

 

        the new WOF costs 200 for 20 seconds, i kill 12 mobs in that same duration, and i waste all 3 energy orbs spawned. My energy drain continues to tick and i have problems keeping accelerant and fireball up. At the end of 20 seconds. I am high and dry. I am 200 energy poorer than before i casted and there is no remedy(other than having a partner limbo). 

 

you are now punished for increasing duration in your build.

 

       "OH but isnt the new WOF toggleable so you could turn it off to prevent energy drain if not needed?" 

-Don't be silly. the activation cost of 50 already accounts for half its energy cost. the energy activation and draining values also punishes those who try toggle WOF on and off between meeting groups of enemies. Toggle it twice in under 15 seconds and you already have spent 100 energy, which is the original skill cost.

 

- to make things worse, WOF now has continues to be balanced amongst range-str-duration, which is still its original problem unchecked. why would a skill that doesnt have the sheer practical power and mobbing of mirage's prism, suffer the same limitations that keep its power in check.

[Llyssa]

Once again, I'll point out, that the inability to pick-up energy is a bug.  It should be working like Mirage's Prism.

 

And really, WoF is the same was Prism, except that turning it off has no secondary effect besides saving you energy from running the full duration.

 

I think that's a perfectly line trade-off.

 

As far as Fire Blast's fire wave, it's just like the excimus version, which requires LOS to hit.  If you're behind cover, it won't hit you.

Smaller range than prism(1/2), based on your position(unlike prism), no special effects when it ends(unlike prism), 3 target max(instead of 20 like prism), ...

 

You cannot get energy siphon while using WoF(or prism) and you cannot get team energy restored while using WoF(or prism).

 

This change dramatically increased the cost of WoF through direct(costs more energy per second) and indirect(no longer able to regenerate/restore) energy costs, and in exchange, gave it a shut-off switch, that has no effect whatsoever besides stopping it. Unless you stop it before the 10 second mark, you aren't saving any energy, and considering the number of targets and range it has, if you're using it for scenarios where you need it for fewer than 10 seconds, you really aren't picking the right skill, given that you've got 3 other attacks available. Worse, given the start up cost, it's more expensive to cast it a second time if you'd have needed it before the duration ran out.

 

This is a really pointless nerf. If it's going to be costing on a level like prism, it needs to be functioning on a level like prism as well.

[--Q--Guther]

Smaller range than prism(1/2), based on your position(unlike prism), no special effects when it ends(unlike prism), 3 target max(instead of 20 like prism), ...

 

You cannot get energy siphon while using WoF(or prism) and you cannot get team energy restored while using WoF(or prism).

 

This change dramatically increased the cost of WoF through direct(costs more energy per second) and indirect(no longer able to regenerate/restore) energy costs, and in exchange, gave it a shut-off switch, that has no effect whatsoever besides stopping it. Unless you stop it before the 10 second mark, you aren't saving any energy, and considering the number of targets and range it has, if you're using it for scenarios where you need it for fewer than 10 seconds, you really aren't picking the right skill, given that you've got 3 other attacks available. Worse, given the start up cost, it's more expensive to cast it a second time if you'd have needed it before the duration ran out.

 

This is a really pointless nerf. If it's going to be costing on a level like prism, it needs to be functioning on a level like prism as well.

you also missed out on other avenues of energy loss.

 

despite having higher costs if WOF goes above 10secs, the problem gets even worse when energy orb pickups and energy siphon healing is completely negated and wasted throughout the duration.

 

the net costs of WOF now, when you account for these energy source being wasted, is far higher.

[faiyde]

So comparing excal and ember here-

 

Ember a fire themed caster frame:

            300 hp,  300 shield and 100/125 armour --slightly more durable

            225 energy                                               --more energy

            150 stamina and 1.1 sprint speed            -- more speed/agility stuffs

 

Excalibur the all-rounder/melee frame:

 

          300 hp,  300 shield  and  65 armour          --slightly less durability

          150 energy                                                 --less energy

          100 stamina  and  1 sprint speed               --less speed/agility stuffs

 

Ember is straight up superior in all stat areas despite being the one typically regarded as a caster.

 

Am I missing something here?

[Llyssa]

So comparing excal and ember here-

 

Ember a fire themed caster frame:

            300 hp,  300 shield and 100/125 armour --slightly more durable

            225 energy                                               --more energy

            150 stamina and 1.1 sprint speed            -- more speed/agility stuffs

 

Excalibur the all-rounder/melee frame:

 

          300 hp,  300 shield  and  65 armour          --slightly less durability

          150 energy                                                 --less energy

          100 stamina  and  1 sprint speed               --less speed/agility stuffs

 

Ember is straight up superior in all stat areas despite being the one typically regarded as a caster.

 

Am I missing something here?

Excal is a caster with massive range on his spells and the ability to blind+interrupt enemies at HUGE distances.

[--Q--Guther]

i did find out something more:

 

a low duration WOF will ultimately cost more than a high duration one

 

WOF with low duration of 6 seconds: 50+30=80 energy cost

 

using low duration build, to keep it going for 18 seconds, you have to cast it thrice: cost is 80x3=160

 

with high duration build, to keep it going for 18 seconds, you have to cast it once: cost is 50+90=140

 

with the old WOF, to keep it going for 18 seconds, you have to cast it once: cost is just=100

 

the net result is that it costs more to increase duration. it also costs more to decrease duration WITH SUSTAINED TOGGLING. which is an irony.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Guther

[Terrahero]

I dont think the changes are really that bad. Ember got quitea few buffs, more stamina, more speed, a lot more armor, Fire Blast buff. As pointed out, stat wise Ember is pretty good now. She mitigates considerably more damage from her armor and gets around much quicker.

 

This has all been overshadowed in a lot of player's minds by the nerf to WoF. And that is really only a small tweak removed from being better than before.

[faiyde]

Excal is a caster with massive range on his spells and the ability to blind+interrupt enemies at HUGE distances.

Yea I suppose, all-rounder is what he is marketed as though when you have the option to choose him at the the start.

It just feels to me like de has switched Ember+Excal's places though, especially with WOF (when maximised) effectively being nerfed, and the ability that is buffed focusing harming and staggering foes in the surrounding area.

Edited January 22, 2015 by faiyde

[tcooc]

Steps to fix ember:

 

1. Make fire blast like nova's molecular prime (scales with duration, and increase base duration). Remove the circle of fire (that never worked anyways).

2. You should be able to regenerate and pick up energy while in world on fire.

3. World on fire should be a toggle ability that lasts as long as you have energy. Energy drain is based ONLY on efficiency. Duration DECREASES the time between damage ticks. Strength and range work as usual.

 

If #3 is too crazy for you, I have a simpler suggestion:

3b. World on fire: Base duration at level 30 INCREASED to 30 seconds. Total energy drain is ONLY based on efficiency. Energy drain/second is (total energy drain)/(duration).

 

Now, steps to make ember work better (more viable):

 

1. Accelerant should also "burn away" the armor of enemies reducing their armor by X%(~30%?).

3. While world on fire is active, all damage done by ember gains X(~500?) flat fire damage. Her melee weapon and projectile/gun gains a firey aura.

Edited January 22, 2015 by tcooc

[--Q--Guther]

I dont think the changes are really that bad. Ember got quitea few buffs, more stamina, more speed, a lot more armor, Fire Blast buff. As pointed out, stat wise Ember is pretty good now. She mitigates considerably more damage from her armor and gets around much quicker.

 

This has all been overshadowed in a lot of player's minds by the nerf to WoF. And that is really only a small tweak removed from being better than before.

 

christ, can you actually go test it out before assuming that the changes were anywhere significant.

 

the armor buff lets you take 75% of your original damage.

 

it sounds good on paper until you actually see, while playing, that what used to kill you in 3 shots now take 4.

 

fireblast gets even crankier because if you want to take advantage of the knockback, you need LOS, and need to be right at enemy's gunpoint, which ember still cannot afford to do now. 

 

bear in mind that is a knockback, not a knockdown, and they continue to shoot at you even while being bounced backwards.

 

WOF nerf looks minor on paper, until you actually TEST it for yourself. the energy regeneration block from almost all sources when WOF is up means that WOF costs exponentially more energy than it does on paper. Before, it had costed less with a long duration, and while WOF is up, you can continue to pick up energy orbs as well as regen energy from siphon.

 

now you pay a heavier energy price for 20 second WOFs. and throughout these 20 seconds, you can no longer restore energy.

[STARL1GHT]

DE killing Ember, thx.

 

Why such reckless and unbalanced change skills?

[StratosOmega]

Transient Fortitude, Fleeting Expertise, Streamline, Natural Talent and Fire Blast shines. Literally.

Finally some crowd control for "late game" content.

 

And her survivability just got buffed as well.

 

I can't complain, will play her more often now.