Ember Changes [Post 15.11.0 Megathread]

[kubbi]

I have played with Ember in some defence missions to try her new additions out.

 

First about fire blast. The new effect to it is supposed to be like the arson eximus right? Or is it only applied to the effect? When using fire blast I noticed a few things.

 

1. The fire effect radius is fixed. I estimate about 25-30 meters. Range mods have no effect on it. Not sure if that is intented.

 

2. The fire effect doesn't cause knockdown on enemies like the arson eximus fire effect does.

 

If fire blast is intented to work that way then the changes to it really have no effect. Fire blast is still useless unless you use its augment mod.

 

Now about world on fire. Like mentioned many times I also agree that duration shouldn't affect it since its toggleable.

[(PSN)SideSwipe_24]

Having tried the Ember changes myself, I can say that while the stat changes where nice, the skill changes are very underwhelming, especially WoF. I was hoping it would be like Banshee's ult where it stays active until you toggle it off or run out of energy.

i agree that WOF should be more like banshee's ult with toggle on and off... leaving it on for duration just sucks. give the player back his control of the character lol

[(PSN)SilverKarasu]

I admit I've never played ember much. I just have her because she's attractive. Would play Ember Prime if her freaking unchangeable Gold didn't class with all my color palette designs. 

 

But I think her issue is the same with all damage abilities. They just don't scale/do enough.

 

I like the fire blast.

 

WoF feels like even more work for the same unattractive results. It needs to get rid of the target limit, and maybe mark every enemy in a range and have a blast come up for each one in quick succession moving out from her. Would be very cool and do more when enemies are in groups because the blasts would hit those groups several times for each enemy in them resulting in nice damage, less damage for stand alone targets for which we have Fireball.

 

Fireball needs to do more single target damage. 

[Aeriax]

World on Fire is the most confused ability.

 

I don't know how to build Ember, because if I want to improve one trait of her, I have to also be fine with damaging World of Fire in some way. There's no way to improve it! Whatever you do, you will make it worse!

 

Adding EITHER power duration OR damage increase energy usage (which is already exorbitant).

 

Add power range and your damage suffers.

 

If you even consider for a second that you want better power efficiency, well in order to get anything worthwhile, you make it so that WoF lasts... Four... Seconds. FOUR SECONDS.

 

This ability is unique in the sense that in it's current state, if you improve any of Ember's other abilities, World on Fire will work against you.

 

I totally forgot that it's stupid and nonsensical for WoF to be both "channeled" and also have a duration. This isn't Prism. It works with Prism. It doesn't for WoF. Suggestions for change:

 

REMOVE DURATION OUTRIGHT.

 

This fixes maybe half of these problems because you can at least consider max power efficiency builds. Now? You can't. This is by far the easiest thing to do that'll make her even slightly okay. Because as it stands, World on Fire is affected by every single changeable attribute- and that's not a good thing.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Aeriax

[BarneyD2]

I originally thought this would be a fantastic opportunity for Ember to become quite good as she once was; having that eximus effect on paper seemed like a great thing. But it's plagued by line of sight, as well as being completely unaffected by range mods. WoF is just an atrocity now what with still limited duration and now not being able to pick up energy – not mentioning the poor damage and non-existent usage in crowds.

 

The buffs to the warframe itself are good, extra survivability is always appreciated. But the abilities need a rework and a serious one, not a sub-patch, and more testing has to be done before implementing these changes.

 

WoF is in such a bad state that in order to make it just below decent in terms of damage and range and duration, you're gimping yourself for your other three abilities. I feel like this skill has such potential but it's like it's undead now; band-aided numerous times to the point where the many stacked band-aids are making it worse. It may actually be an option to redo it entirely...

 

Whatever happens, I'm still hopeful that DE will fix that which needs to be fixed, and look upon what needs to be looked upon. Mistakes and misunderstandings are bound to happen, but it is by not repeating the same mistakes that leads to improvement. This is unfortunately not the first time something like this has happened, far from it as the more veteran players may know.

 

I understand that DE wants the game to be balanced and prevent an overheat situation from occurring to a warframe again but this has not accomplishing either. Please take your time to look over what you're about to patch in, if not for bugs then at least to make sure it works as intended and we don't get any more of these situations. Ideally, no ability should be made redundant by another, much less from the same frame that ability comes from.

[Cyv001]

The warframe buffs are appreciated, but the ability buffs are minuscule. No knockdown on fire blast, small range and damage on her abilities...

I really want to use ember, her art design is fantastic, but her lack of survivability and proper damage keeps me from doing so.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Cyv001

[Xtenz]

BEFORE COMMENTING READ ALL OF THIS PLEASE.

 

I'll be blunt , she is at the exact same stage than she was before. Better on some points worse on another

 

 

What is good about her changes  : 

 

-Speed buff ( it seems it is 1.1 speed even tho i would have given more(1.2) but whatever ... it is still good )

-Armor , i guess i can't say no to this (still meh but okay)

-New mechanic on fireblast ( it does proc burn too so it's really good)

- Casting speed on WoF 

 

What is bad about her changes :

 

-The duration  scaling on WoF

 

 

Now why it is REALLY BAD

 

Before this """buff""" having more duration  added efficiency ( because you were casting less   WoF)

 

Now  having more duration have a negative effect on your efficiency ( wich ember really REALLY RELIES ON IT)

 

I have done a test right now :

 

 No power efficiency + 78 % more duration build = 18 Sec WoF  . 

 

18 seconds WoF(with no efficiency) = 152 Mana cost . Yes 152.

It is absolutely INSANE

 

Off course the better Power efficiency you have the better are the results but it stays  worse than before.

 

I'd rather have at this point the not toggle'able WoF and keeping the casting speed increase , WoF being toggle'able right now brings nothing .

.

What are the consequences ?

 

WoF used to have  4 restrictions on it  . 

You wanted Efficiency (mostly to cast it , and you really needed it for accelerant too .. )

You wanted Power Strength obviously to make it effective (same for accelerant)

You wanted Range to make it Effective (same for accelerant)

You wanted duration to make it Effective & Efficient cost wise

 

The new ember adds a 5 th restriction , now you need to balance everything you had to AND  now at the same time you have to not have too much duration or your efficiency will get destroyed .

 

I KNOW you can cut WoF whenever you want . STILL your efficiency has taken a hit if you compare it with the "before this patch" Ember.

 

Beside all that why would you make it a toggle if it does cost more MP than before for the SAME DURATION   it's REALLY  stupid and the last thing she needed is having ANOTHER CORE PROBLEM .

 

These changes affected everything EXCEPT what made her bad in the first place in fact it even ADDED ONE problem , and the fact that DE doesn't even see this , which is obvious  really  makes me mad .

 

I love ember  and i was waiting for this buff for so , SO LONG , and now i realise the "buff"  isn't even really one .

 

I'm so upset by theses changes that it makes me question why i'm playing this game....

 

So , how to REALLY make Ember better ? 

 

Give her too much in something so we have room to optimise her in something that allow her to scale .

 

That means :

 

 Lower all her mana cost so we can ignore a little Power Efficiency and focus on something else .

 

OR

 

Give her a better INITIAL duration so we can focus our build more on something else .

 

OR

 

Remove the duration on ULT and it stay toggle'able (Still , MP cost/ second needs to be lower than it is right now .... ) So we can focus on something else than duration .

 

OR 

 

Give her more range so we can focus on something else  .

 

 

Ember needs everything(all 4 stats) because she lacks everything . (but damage)

 

Initial duration is an example you can't lower this or you're ineficient

 

 initial range , you can't lower this or you'll get rekt all day long and your WoF will be bad accelerant will be terrible too .

Mana costs  , because she relies so much on spamming accelerant to be effective she needs to be able to spam , therefore Power efficiency is also very valuable

 

The only thing she is fine with is damage which she also deeply need in order to scale into late game.So you have to mod it too ...

 

 

Conclusion :

 

I understand that most of theses changes are QoL Improvements and i welcome them (especially the fireblast added mechanic) , but NONE of theses changes affect what made her bad in first place . Like i said earlier it even add one more core problem to the table ...

 

 

 

Now that the changes have been live for about 90 minutes, here is a quick update on the update:

 

Note 1: There are several people providing feedback in this thread who have not tested the changes on their accounts. I cannot emphasize enough how important it is that you give them a try so we can get the most accurate thoughts/feedback possible. On-paper reactions are acceptable, but there is considerable value in play experiences.

 

 

I really hope DE consider my opinion on Ember because i'm 200 % convinced that what i said would make her on par with  the other frames without making her utterly broken .

Edited January 22, 2015 by Xtenz

[Helleborr]

Was looking forward to this, as Ember remains the one frame that needs a rework most. Unfortunately, these changes are pretty much nonexistent, barring the ultimate cast time buff. No utility or damage was added to any of the abilities, and the one ability that behaves like current WoF is many times mentioned Mirage's Prism, which blinds enemies on detonation, which is why it has both a duration and an ability to manually detonate it where you need it.

 

As it is, Ember is still the same, with same problems of too little damage and too little utility beyond Accelerant spam.

[(PSN)SideSwipe_24]

The buffs are appreciated, but the ability buffs are minuscule. No knockdown on fire blast, small range and damage on her abilities...

I really want to use ember, her art design is fantastic, but her lack of survivability hampers that desire.

well said..!

[CHunterX]

Now that the changes have been live for about 90 minutes, here is a quick update on the update:

 

Note 1: There are several people providing feedback in this thread who have not tested the changes on their accounts. I cannot emphasize enough how important it is that you give them a try so we can get the most accurate thoughts/feedback possible. On-paper reactions are acceptable, but there is considerable value in play experiences.

I have tested it in game. Where I could easily survive through the average Cerberus runs prior to the patch with no energy issues whatsoever, I am now struggling to kill anything post-patch. My energy is struggling to stay in the double digits. WoF costs way more than pre-patch, and this isn't even taking into account the energy "bug" (again, this is how all channeled abilities work, its not a bug). The wall of fire from Fire Blast is cute, but it doesn't really do anything. There are too many objects within existing environments for LoS to work properly.

Edited January 22, 2015 by CHunterX

[TerraNovaX]

The warframe buffs are appreciated, but the ability buffs are minuscule. No knockdown on fire blast, small range and damage on her abilities...

I really want to use ember, her art design is fantastic, but her lack of survivability and proper damage keeps me from doing so.

Fireblast does have a knockdown, affected by Line of Sight. Which is okay I think.

[Lynxh]

In Theory WoF should effectively have the same base cost, by calculation of:

 

50 casting cost plus 5 EN per second

 

in Practise

 

And I have tested this multiple times using 0 mods besides Flow, it costs 111 EN for base duration of 10 seconds

 

Something is clearly bugged here, if it's supposed to be 5 per second >_>. It's more like 6.1 per second atm, if you detract the base cost and divide it by 10.

 

And explanation can be that you start using EN the moment you press 4 rather then at after the casting animation has actually started WoF.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Lynxh

[4ever4gotin]

The fire blast wave has completely negligible damage from my runs, still has a silly fire ring that no enemy walks into, unless it's survival and defence. But even then I've had enemies crowd around the firing ring, not entering but not able to do anything else cause that was their only path to me....

 

Wof Just has faster animations, but it feels kinda wonky.... like the first half is normal speed then the ending is rushed. It does the same amount of damage as before and now can do even less damage cause you can accidentally turn it off! Energy can still be restored from Death orbs in voids for Ember prime but man she just eats energy cause I'm constantly having to spam-Accelerant the room repeatedly to make her damage noticable.

 

There's nothing to see here that makes Ember stunningly different. Wof duration or target limit has to go, or the numbers have to be increased. Also put some CC into Wof, something like guaranteed fire proc and fire proc panic reset on enemies affected by Accelerant. It'll give more damage, It'll already synergize with her 2 spam, and will make an entire room of enemies flailing about on fire.

 

Fire blast's knock back wave, up the damage on this. It's just a panic button, something accelerant already is... Move some of that uselesss damage on the exsisting ring of fire and put it on the blast wave. AND if you want to be real ambitious have smaller secondary blast waves occur when the wave strikes enemies affected with Accelerant. I would really have a blast using the power now. 

Edited January 22, 2015 by 4ever4gotin

[MrNonApplicable]

I don't feel LoS should affect the radial blast, just cover.

 

Haha, I justt reached by positive points quota for today just from the community input on this thread.

Edited January 22, 2015 by MrNonApplicable

[xmegarockx]

i dont like LOS on fireblast and the wof timer should be removed

[LoopStricken]

Please buff ember by removing the chicken-leg accessories.

 

PLEASE DE...

 

You keep away from my waifu's delicious thighs.

[Chigawa]

You keep away from my waifu's delicious thighs.

Girl's got curves. And they're some good ones.

[CHunterX]

In Theory WoF should effectively have the same base cost, by calculation of:

 

50 casting cost plus 5 EN per second

 

in Practise

 

And I have tested this multiple times using 0 mods besides Flow, it costs 111 EN for base duration of 10 seconds

 

Something is clearly bugged here, if it's supposed to be 5 per second >_>. It's more like 6.1 per second atm, if you detract the base cost and divide it by 10.

 

But as soon as you add any duration to it, it costs more than pre-patch. A straight nerf to anyone who ran positive duration on Ember.

[Halser]

I don't feel LoS should affect the radial blast, just cover.

 

Haha, I justt reached by positive points quota for today just from the community input on this thread.

Yeah, right now it's just a worse Radial Blind, and at Radial Blind can be cast on air(for better sight), is quicker and has longer range.

[mrecentric]

I agree with what I've read so far. Why on earth would I want to toggle the power if it still has a time limit? What is the point in making it a toggle? I'm seriously asking because I can't see any benefit.

[Djego27]

Ember got a .1 speed buff. And considering enemies in void have mostly hitscan weapon and silly stuff like homing rockets, your running speed is not going to be enough to avoid anything serious.

 

Ember got actually 2 speed buffs, one build in and the 2. one on WoF, what brings her up to full Volt speed if you run a rush mod.

 

As for void I did 40+ minutes with my old ember without a reactor and 5 forma on it, while running out of ammo on my 6 forma catalyst Tiberon(what is a high dps and ammo efficent gun if you aim for headshots) and seeing the dps of my abilitys drop that hard that you can't manage the heavy gunner in front of you any more. At this point, speed is what keeps you alive and most void units don't have hitscan weapons.

 

I acutally do run mag prime more than everything else for void missions today, because the frame gives me great dps(and by great I mean 60+ percent in a 4 man team) and utility(people are down, everybody calls it a wipe and the mag saves the day with CC, plus for some reason nobody else in my clan really uses the frame, so if we use a mag, I play it every single time), different to Ember where dps doesn't scale at all and utility was missing compleetly before the accelerant fix. However, looking at her performance against infested, I would say that it now comes down to preference(dps and up close vs slow down and to use range) and playstyle if you pick a Ember or Nova, outside of long def/survial where you need the slow down. Before the changes Nova was just miles better at staying alive and to handle big amounts of targets, now Ember can do that as well in skilled hands(then again nova dies just as quick as a Ember if you make a mistake as player). I think that is a good thing, because I like in your face dps Ember a bit more than slow you down Nova when it comes to solo gameplay, while I still will run the Nova if nobody else bings one if we do 40+ waves or minutes in defence or surival.

 

I love the Ember gameplay of in your face dps and with the higher speed, AOE knockdown and armor it got a lot more practical and useful for the team.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Djego27

[akira_him]

I agree with what I've read so far. Why on earth would I want to toggle the power if it still has a time limit? What is the point in making it a toggle? I'm seriously asking because I can't see any benefit.

The time limit works if it has no target limit and ranged , see prism

But WoF definitely need to be turely toggle

[CHAIT0]

It feels badly implemented. All of it.

What is the direction you want to take ember DE?

The fire blast changes, along with the armor scream tanky caster such as saryn. 

Fire ball, world on fire and accelerant say more Squishy damage caster the sorts of nova.

 

This is one thing you need to do if you want to bring ember to just viability. World on fire has to be able to stay as long as you have energy. The likes of mesa and banshee.

 

If you want ember to be a tanky damage dealer the likes of saryn, bring overheat back, and add a mechanic to world on fire that will increase its effectiveness with the duration stat. Muddles of lava after an explosion, explosions nock enemies up for longer based on duration, more duration more frequent explosions. Just something!

 

IF you want ember to be a squishy caster then give her a life line ability, the such as nova and banshee which can slow or stun enemies whom get too close. Removing the fire circle from fire blast, having it deal actual damage and proc all the time; and making the application of accelerant different, I was thinking another toggle and all of embers abilities cost more while also coating enemies with accelerant. Also throwing this health and armor S#&$ away in favor of a bigger energy pool, I'm talking biggest energy pool, ala loki prime.

 

 

 

Pick one direction DE

[Lynxh]

But as soon as you add any duration to it, it costs more than pre-patch. A straight nerf to anyone who ran positive duration on Ember.

 

It already does at base, like I demonstrated. Old WoF was 100 EN for 10 seconds, new one is 111 for the same 10 seconds.

 

I already stated it was more costly in an earlier post to, but that was just going off my current builds. I tested the base value's because I felt the math was off. And I was right it seems

Edited January 22, 2015 by Lynxh

[Cryhunter059]

Just curious...why would you be wanting to cut it shorter than before? I was hoping the change would allow us to actually run around for 30 seconds or so, modded properly, not being capped at 9-10 seconds and given the option to make that time even shorter.