Ember Changes [Post 15.11.0 Megathread]

[MrNonApplicable]

Now that the changes have been live for about 90 minutes, here is a quick update on the update:

 

Note 1: There are several people providing feedback in this thread who have not tested the changes on their accounts. I cannot emphasize enough how important it is that you give them a try so we can get the most accurate thoughts/feedback possible. On-paper reactions are acceptable, but there is considerable value in play experiences.

Note 2: The combo of Duration + Toggle Energy Drain is currently the hottest issue. Ember not being able to pick-up Energy in this state is currently being treated like a bug.

Note 3: Fire Fright and it's efficacy on the Wall that Fire-Blast now generates has been noted - will be a design call but the concern has been forwarded.

Will play around myself some more this evening as we continue discussing - please remain civil and respectful. 

I think seeing duration stripped off the ulti and enemy limit number being dropped would be a big step forward.

[MrNonApplicable]

I dont get it. The Ember is a typical Glass-canon character. I think, the +100 armor are ruined the balance. She is now a tank? What? Really? And, the WoF nerfing is just the cream on the cake. I think, the best for buffing the Ember, is the buffing her abilitys. The knockdown to the 3rd ability is very good, effective, and logical, if we see the eximuses. But that armor thing, and, the WoF thing... I dont know who think this is okay, but, i think this is NOT OKAY.

The extra armor does very little really, I've done a bunch of testing, and even on uranus it's hard not to burn through health restores without relying completely on weps.

[Otaiken]

Ember is spread way too thin. She relies on massive amount of different mods to be effective. Something simply HAS to go.

 

She needs power, efficiency, range AND duration. So that's most of your slots gone.

 

Now for survivability... she has both pretty low HP and shields. Now with the improved armor you can go for HP + Rage + QT + Steel Fiber. But that is A LOT of slots that Ember simply can't sacrifice... using this build will make pretty much all of your abilities weak as hell. Also... it turns her into melee frame. I guess you could drop the QT. Not to mention having space for auguments...

 

So yeah... even with the armor not much changes. Stamina is just... ugh. Thanks DE, much appreciated.

 

Complete rework sounds about right. But that won't ever happen.

 

As far as I'm concerned Ember is going back on the shelf. I won't delete the prime only because it looks so pretty... but that's about it.

[ZayTM]

I dont get it. The Ember is a typical Glass-canon character. I think, the +100 armor are ruined the balance. She is now a tank? What? Really? And, the WoF nerfing is just the cream on the cake. I think, the best for buffing the Ember, is the buffing her abilitys. The knockdown to the 3rd ability is very good, effective, and logical, if we see the eximuses. But that armor thing, and, the WoF thing... I dont know who think this is okay, but, i think this is NOT OKAY.

She's a damage-over-time short range warframe like Saryn is. She needs the armor to be up close and personal long enough for World on Fire to deal the damage it needs to deal. She was always intended this way (she originally had one of the best tanking skills in the game and was capable of 99% damage reduction)

[geninrising]

I think seeing duration stripped off the ulti and enemy limit number being dropped would be a big step forward.

Enemy limit number?? Are you not aware of how the targeting is already messed up? It hits 3 targets at a time over the duration. It was already by far the worst ultimate in game and now that it has had a chance to be buffed we get THIS?

 

It should be an AREA OF EFFECT SKILL not a few enemies in the area effected skill.

[MrNonApplicable]

Enemy limit number?? Are you not aware of how the targeting is already messed up? It hits 3 targets at a time over the duration. It was already by far the worst ultimate in game and now that it has had a chance to be buffed we get THIS?

 

It should be an AREA OF EFFECT SKILL not a few enemies in the area effected skill.

I don't understand, we're talking about the same thing, I want it to target all enemies in range, rather than be capped at an enemy limit of 3 targets.

[Djego27]

In my opinion having the 'same survivability as nova' means not having any at all.

 

 

Let's calculate how much the tiny armor buff actually helps. Ember had 15 armor before. Having 300 health, that amounts to 315 effective health, if you are fighting enemies that do not deal puncture damage(as the vast majority of corpus do).

 

Now with the armor buff of 125, that goes to 425 effective health against enemies without puncture damage. That's a 34% increase on health.

 

Now for overall health + shields, it goes from 615 to 725, a tiny 18% increase in effective hp. Basically nothing.

 

The point is that I can solo survial for a good amount of time with my Nova because you will not get hit(at all) by the high speed of the frame and the slow down of mprime. Ember with the changes makes it possible to prevent getting hit at point blank(I will still keep my max rush mod, because speed is what you need the most) and with a maxed vitality mod even doing a mistake and getting hit once will not kill you(outside of enemy levels where the vitality mod becomes useless and doesn't make a difference), that is a huge different compared to the old Ember.

[Halser]

The point is that I can solo survial for a good amount of time with my Nova because you will not get hit(at all) by the high speed of the frame and the slow down of mprime. Ember with the changes makes it possible to prevent getting hit at point blank(I will still keep my max rush mod, because speed is what you need the most) and with a maxed vitality mod even doing a mistake and getting hit once will not kill you(outside of enemy levels where the vitality mod becomes useless and doesn't make a difference), that is a huge different compared to the old Ember.

Ember got a .1 speed buff. And considering enemies in void have mostly hitscan weapon and silly stuff like homing rockets, your running speed is not going to be enough to avoid anything serious.

[xyLoneZ]

you shoulda put this in the megathread! 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/388985-ember-changes-post-15110-megathread/

I didn't know there's one. I've already requested a mod to merge this. Thanks.

 

I do not see ANYWHERE that they've said they were buffing World on fire, The word used, is "Changes". While ember has for the most part been buffed, a buff is a change, world on fire was also changed, again, the word buff, was not used.

DONT. Just don't even start.

[ZayTM]

Ember got a .1 speed buff. And considering enemies in void have mostly hitscan weapon and silly stuff like homing rockets, your running speed is not going to be enough to avoid anything serious.

IIRC, only ONE enemy in the void has hitscan weapons. The LAncers, Creman (including nullifiers), Drones, and Ancients don't.

[Rankii]

Just give me overheat back, up the damage on WoF(because before this update it didn't do anything at high levels), and remove it's channeling cost. Ember's updates are making her progressively worse and it's painful, since pyromancers are some of my favorite types of characters.

[Katze127]

Well, this is what i say. If she got bigger target hit, make small blast, and a little sprint speed while the ability active, she dont need more than 65 armor. Not 100... She moving, blasting, burning, EVERYTHING in that aera. Maybe get some protection, like Zephyrs turbulence, or Mesas shatter shield, or Trinitys link. but in that chase, the timer and the energy drain together is tooo bad. Energy drain OR timer, but not all 2.

[TerraNovaX]

The changes have been tested! The armor buff is really nice and i'm enjoying the sprint speed! However, I was hitting the 4 button even more often now.

 

Trying to balance all aspects of power, range, & duration is a big problem! Her abilities work together nicely, but it is hindered a lot by the simple factor or 'I need this'. In order for Ember to be VIABLE in late games, she NEEDS to be allowed more specialization. We need more freedom in modding her to help make an addition to her usefulness, not this juggling nonsense.

 

The CC in fireblast is a great change and a good start. The enhanced survivability is welcome, seeing as Ember is an aggressive frame and a brawler by nature. But overall the damage output is still struggling it seems.

[Anatolius]

The reason I see that  WOF is also duration based is because you are fully model unlike stationary abilities, which makes all the difference.

However, I still feel like its not up to par

I feel like these should happen:

- Allow energy pick ups while in WoF

- The animation still feels alittle slow in a bind, I would like it to be alittle faster

- End of animation causes a small fire AOE with panic

 

I just slop off range most of the time, the fire seems to proc enough that they panic so i can walk up to them in the mean time

so I just focus on duration power and efficiency

or just get a bigger energy pool with flow/primed flow/ arcane helm

I have been very happy using rage on her now

Edited January 22, 2015 by Anatolius

[(PSN)SilverKarasu]

Everyone complaining about the LoS on fire blast. The Arson Eximus skill is LoS as well. So is Sgt Ruk's.

Wouldn't make any sense for Ember's to ignore LoS. It's a fire blast. Last time I checked, fire doesn't penetrate (and leave what it goes through intact).  

[Holynight6]

IMO the fire blast wave doesn't need to proc the augment, though it would be nice. With just that ability and augment she's almost on par with vauban for infested defence, being able to delay then clear enemies who get too close. Ember + Frost is now a pretty strong combo to take into void defence too. It's just too bad that's all she has going for her.

Obligatory REMOVE THE DURATION line.

I say remove the duration on WoF and keep the no energy gain while active. Just that one change and she's suddenly a solid frame for any mission. Or buff the duration to like 30 seconds, so it's not infinite, but we can reasonably dump duration.

Will be back on in 4 hours so I'll give further impressions then.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Holynight6

[EloreRainbrought]

The WOF skill feel like a nerf, if the dmg need to-be continuously draining energy, there should not be targets limit cap on it. The 125 armor looks a lot better, can feel the different when shields down.

[akira_him]

You can tell fireblast is actually good without actually testing it because we face it every mission from eximus

Other changes aren't really changes, you don't even need to test it as you don't want to end WoF earlier anyway if you are overwhelmed by hordes of enemies

Edited January 22, 2015 by akira_him

[geninrising]

I don't understand, we're talking about the same thing, I want it to target all enemies in range, rather than be capped at an enemy limit of 3 targets.

Ah I see, I misunderstood excuse my mistake. Sorry it's just that for the first 200 hrs or so on my account I played virtually nothing but Ember and then they utterly destroyed her. OFC I have been hoping for a rework at some time and instead they crapped on my hopes. 

 

It just seems that every single time something good has an opportunity of happening in this game they somehow despite 3k pages of various great feedback end up just getting things all wrong and it boggles the mind. I even got a warning point today by DERebecca for completely losing my cool on the subject.

[Ishki88]

Just took Ember Prime to T3DEF Wave 25 with my teammates and my game crashed before I could see my results

 

...

 

*goes outside to smoke a cig*

 

Edit:  To make this topic related.  

 

Pro-Tip #1

 

-Ember's Hadouken allows me to stop Corrupted Heavies/Napalmer's in their tracks.

---If I see they are prepping to fire I will hadouken them and then proceed to shoot them during the proc duration.  Also you can use Power 1 while shooting.

 

If DE nerfs that then they are...well...just read my mind

Edited January 22, 2015 by Ishki88

[Brynslustafir]

Wait... Why does WoF still have a duration? I was under the impression that they were removing it. I am dissapointed with this. 

 

This hasn't done anything to make ember better. What's going on, I thought you guys were trying to improve her?

Edited January 22, 2015 by Plasmaface

[geninrising]

Remove one or the other, Duration/toggle AND remove broken targeting mechanic. What's that? It would be the old WoF....exactly. The ability was not broken in any way before as it fit perfectly. The ultra nerfed version it is now only has one purpose...being ignored. Too expensive for the random frustrating mechanics involved in it's use. As though we need to contest with any more RNG.

Edited January 22, 2015 by geninrising

[traybong111]

Woohoo even less reason to use World on Fire that I didn't use anyway! 

 

While most of the buffs are appreciated (thank you DE! I mean it! I'm noticing better survival in Ceres missions well into late 40s) World on Fire is still pretty lackluster. There's no reason to use it when you can cast Accel and 2 Fireballs for far better results. 

 

DE, please, if you absolutely insist on keeping duration on WoF then at least remove the target cap. Either one of its target cap or duration HAS to go. 

[OniDax]

Since you so readily changed the title, seems like a unspoken DE admission that this wasn't a buff at all. Why call it a "buff" then to begin with? My point is this. Ember didn't need a rebalance. Ember needed a buff. It wasn't one, and yet that's what it was represented as. For elemental frames, the powers need to be the priority. They need to be effective. You shouldn't have an Arson Eximus that has a better fire ability than Ember. It seems like DE still doesn't understand the way to balance frames. All elemental frames need a good amount of power to be able to use their powers. They should be balanced around that. Power and Abilities. As for stats across the board, they need to be balanced around Excalibur, the balanced frame. To actually balance something, you need to have something that actually is the standard for being balanced. So, for Ember, her abilities need to shine. All of them. If other stats need to be sacrificed to balance that out, then fine, but the frame still has to be able to survive. There should be no such thing as a "beginner" frame or an "end-game" frame. All frames should be able to survive at high levels. So for frames like Ember, make the abilities GOOD. Make them EFFECTIVE. And if you need to then rebalance the rest of the frame, then look at the stats. But there is no reason that an elemental frame should have ineffective abilities.

[ThePresident777]

Just played Ember in Hymeno and it was boring:

1)  She's still sluggish.

2)  I was out of energy all the time.

3)  The Fire Blast's fire wave does nothing.

 

 

World On Fire has been nerfed and it's obvious from the description: "World On Fire is now a toggle ability with a 50 Energy cost on cast. It will drain 5 energy over time as well as consider your power duration (affected by mods)."

 

Think about that for a second.  You're paying 5 energy per second, plus 50.  For the standard 10 second duration you pay the 50 energy + 10 seconds * 5 energy / second = 100 energy, like before.  If you put on duration mods, you're paying for the extra duration, you're paying more than you used to:  50 energy + 10 * (1 + duration_bonus) seconds * 5 energy / second.  It's.  A. Nerf.

 

Year of Quality, yeah, right.  Yeah of Trojan Nerf Horses.  I can't wait to see what happens to the whole animal.  Infested I suppose.

 

EDIT:  Screwed up my math, again, doh!  Fixed it.

Edited January 22, 2015 by ThePresident777