Chroma, The New Dragon Frame (Teased In Devstream 45, 46, Tennolive) Anticipation Megathread

[EmptyDevil]

I'll reiterate what I said a few days ago, with some more elaborated opinions.

I think DE made at least one mistake here: hyping this frame as a "dragon frame" instead of as a "dragon-inspired frame" (and there is a difference; "dragon" would purely fit only the dragon archetype that the community largely expected, while "dragon-inspired" would point to just that: a frame which was inspired by the dragon archetype but with a more freeform design).

As I mentioned in my earlier post (page 108 I believe), Chroma's initial unveiling as a "dragon frame" is unlike that of virtually any other frame before it -- instead of being themed around a flexible, abstract concept (like electricity, fire, water, ice, etc) whose initial design slate could have been open to much interpretation, Chroma was based around one specific type of mythological creature, which (relative to the abstract concepts mentioned) is NOT open to a wealth of interpretation since it has a "defined" physical form. Yes, there are many "types" of dragons from different cultures (and that's just the tip of the iceberg in terms of dragon-related inspiration if you count cultural influences) but no matter how you slice it, since dragons have a physical form that is so rooted into popular culture, there will always be large chunks of the community expecting something at least mildly "dragon-like" in a specifically "dragon" frame if it is advertised to them in that way.

The only other frame I can think of that even comes close to this dilemma is Oberon, who was originally let out as a "paladin/druid-inspired frame". Even then, note that DE specifically said that he was inspired by paladins and druids, not necessarily themed off of them to the letter. Unlike with Chroma (so far) DE mentioned on behalf of Oberon that they took inspiration for him from the archetypical paladin and druid and then gave it their own spin.

Logically, based on what DE has been doing with their new frame designs over the past year or so (taking some kind of motif or unifying idea ("gunslinger" "berserker", "water", "light" etc. and expanding on it with a physical warframe which can be looked at), it actually makes sense that DE would do this with Chroma, the purported "dragon frame"... just not in the way much of the community expected. What I'm trying to say is that, in keeping with all of my above thoughts about abstract versus concrete themes, Chroma was NOT a "pure dragon frame" in DE's eyes. Instead, he was inspired by dragons and/or dragon-related concepts, and DE gave the theme their own spin. They treated his theme just like any other before it -- as an abstract one. We just didn't get the message this time, and many of us treated it literally.

The point of all this talk? DE did NOT hype this frame correctly. As a result, if I was to ask DE to do anything right now (instead of outright asking them to redesign/tweak Chroma), it would be to speak more about their inspiration for Chroma (instead of just saying "dragon") and to apologize for misleading us about Chroma's design itself in the above way. This would calm down all the rabble and encourage constructive feedback on the looks of Chroma as they relate to DE's NEW talk about his actual design inspiration, which would contain FAR more information to think about (and argue for hours about) than simply the word "dragon".

TL;DR: I think DE hyped Chroma wrong, giving us zero information about his inspiration other than the word "dragon". This thread is a complete mess right now, and a good fix for that would be to have DE apologize for misleading our weary souls and have them give some insight about Chroma's design so we can more easily talk about it constructively and civilly.

Thanks for your time; I hope DE at least skims over this.

EDIT: Formatting.

 

I took the time to read your post and it is well said. I'd like to say that even if they said "Dragon-Inspired Warframe" instead of "Dragon Warframe" he would still be considered the Dragon frame. We wouldn't be getting another Warframe just to call it the "Dragon Warframe" in a literal sense.

[Invalid_Infinity]

Here's a question.  How many lizards have we seen in Warframe?  Or for that matter, how many scaled things have we seen in warframe?  While Infested flesh is ugly [apparently warframe is a fashion show, fashion frame! :D] is it that improper a replacement when considering the warframe universe?

Yes it is improper. Tenno are not infested zombies.

[-Jack.Of.Blades-]

-snip-

"hyping this frame as a "dragon frame" instead of as a "dragon-inspired frame"

Didn't DE hype it as a dragon "themed" warframe and not a strict dragon warframe o_0(I could be wrong though)?I strongly feel that this backlash is because of his helm IMO because it just isn't up to the standards of some.

"(relative to the abstract concepts mentioned) is NOT open to a wealth of interpretation since it has a "defined" physical form."

"Yes, there are many "types" of dragons from different cultures (and that's just the tip of the iceberg in terms of dragon-related inspiration"I think these two sentences contradict each other 0_0

"They treated his theme just like any other before it -- as an abstract one. We just didn't get the message this time, and many of us treated it literally."Totally Agree.

"(instead of just saying "dragon") and to apologize for misleading us about Chroma's design itself in the above way."That's putting it a little harsh IMO I mean sure it's no doubt that a group of people are disappointed but that could be said for all the warframes that have been hyped.There will always be a minority/majority that hates or dislikes something and I think that shouldn't hold back DE's Creative art team.

 

All in all a well thought out post,Good job.

[EmptyDevil]

Yes it is improper. Tenno are not infested zombies.

 

Warframes might be controlled and repurposed Technocyte though. We know the Orokin Neural Sentry can take things under control. We do use some infested materials in building and they both typically have an organic appearance.

[Pretzellis]

I took the time to read your post and it is well said. I'd like to say that even if they said "Dragon-Inspired Warframe" instead of "Dragon Warframe" he would still be considered the Dragon frame. We wouldn't be getting another Warframe just to call it the "Dragon Warframe" in a literal sense.

I see what you mean; if we were to compare this to Oberon, the closest example here, his reception probably wouldn't have panned out much differently if he was advertised as just a "paladin frame". The difference that I see for Chroma, however, is that the community was utterly shocked by his appearance in a way much unlike Oberon's unveiling (a more extreme shock, by my experience with Warframe so far). The difference here is that dragons are iconic in a way that a paladin/druid isn't. In our generalized culture, dragons have a very, very defined expectation associated with them. But since this iconism is lopsided in favour of the physical form of dragons (instead if their various other cultural impacts) a studied art team and the general public are likely to have wildly different opinions on what makes something "dragon-ey" and what doesn't. Therefore, DE would need to translate their view of "dragon frame" to our view of "dragon-inspired frame", before they ship it, to prevent a bumpy ride down to the exit.

[HAYABU5A]

[-Jack.Of.Blades-]

PM me a link to your proof. I am suspicious of that method of acquiring information and I will not treat it as fact unless I can see it's validity. 

 

No, not all dragons have scales. Just like not all lizards have scales. Still, most people don't think "scaleless" when they think of a dragon. Just like we don't think of a dragon as chroma's theme, we think of the infested.

Look at its tail in the bottom left (all I could make out with the sun flair) kinda reminds me of scale like rivets kinda of like this dragonscale armor

http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20121015192630/elderscrolls/images/1/1f/DragonscaleArmor.png

Edited March 10, 2015 by -Jack.Of.Blades-

[OniDax]

I took the time to read your post and it is well said. I'd like to say that even if they said "Dragon-Inspired Warframe" instead of "Dragon Warframe" he would still be considered the Dragon frame. We wouldn't be getting another Warframe just to call it the "Dragon Warframe" in a literal sense.

 

I personally think it would've helped if DE would've distanced their dragon frame from the repeated community requests for a dragon frame, because the repeated requests certainly were for a traditional dragon look (whether eastern or western). Many were, obviously, under the impression that the frame would be thematically similar to the repeated requests, when that must not have been DE's intention. It was just too tied to what many in the community requested that this came across as an answer to those requests, when really the frame wasn't (it'd be like DE saying that they are gonna do a theme that the community has requested - infested frame. That would lead people to immediately think that they are doing Typhus or something like Typhus, visually, when that wouldn't necessarily be the case). So I think DE should've been at least open that they were gonna forego a traditional look. Honestly, it's not the first time DE has let hype fester and end up not delivering quite what the community was expecting. I know some people like surprises, but DE needs to learn that keeping things completely in the dark doesn't bode well for community tensions. I'm not saying that they should've revealed everything, but they could've been a bit more open about what to expect with the design. And, that's another thing: DE needs to remember that the look of a frame is very much a contributing factor into how a frame will be received, so giving some hints about visual design, especially when it involves a much-hyped or much-requested item, would be best going forward.

 

Whether or not you or someone else think Chroma's design is a big deal or not, it says something when this is the most talked about thing coming out of TennoLive and when that most talked about thing is something that kinda splits the community. And something like that isn't good for the community. So, it certainly needs to have some attention from the devs and retrospection on how to avoid something like this in the future. Being a bit more open with the visual design process, at least just dropping hints and small details about the visual influences for a much-anticipated frame, weapon, or enemy (again, only hints and small details, to manage expectations), would help DE and the community to avoid something like this in the future.

[EmptyDevil]

I see what you mean; if we were to compare this to Oberon, the closest example here, his reception probably wouldn't have panned out much differently if he was advertised as just a "paladin frame". The difference that I see for Chroma, however, is that the community was utterly shocked by his appearance in a way much unlike Oberon's unveiling (a more extreme shock, by my experience with Warframe so far). The difference here is that dragons are iconic in a way that a paladin/druid isn't. In our generalized culture, dragons have a very, very defined expectation associated with them. But since this iconism is lopsided in favour of the physical form of dragons (instead if their various other cultural impacts) a studied art team and the general public are likely to have wildly different opinions on what makes something "dragon-ey" and what doesn't. Therefore, DE would need to translate their view of "dragon frame" to our view of "dragon-inspired frame", before they ship it, to prevent a bumpy ride down to the exit.

 

True but i'm not entirely sure people would be satisfied with that change. Especially knowing that he would be the only dragon/dragon-inspired frame with a look that some people disapprove of.

[achromos]

Warframes might be controlled and repurposed Technocyte though. We know the Orokin Neural Sentry can take things under control. We do use some infested materials in building and they both typically have an organic appearance.

 exactly, and it isnt that far fetched to have a warframe that utilizes infested material or is infested in its origins possibly.  It isn't smart, knowing the whole hive-mind thing that the infested traditionally have but maybe Tenno are more resilient then other factions?

[OniDax]

Here's a question.  How many lizards have we seen in Warframe?  Or for that matter, how many scaled things have we seen in warframe?  While Infested flesh is ugly [apparently warframe is a fashion show, fashion frame! :D] is it that improper a replacement when considering the warframe universe?

 

When we have Frost with his bowtie, Trinity with her ponytails, Nova with the same and bellbottoms, Hydroid with his alt pirate helmet, Limbo with his tuxedo and tophat, and Mesa with her cowgirl outfit, is it really that out-of-place for a dragon warframe to actually have traditional-looking scales or even for a frame to actually look rather dragon-like?

[Pretzellis]

"hyping this frame as a "dragon frame" instead of as a "dragon-inspired frame"

Didn't DE hype it as a dragon "themed" warframe and not a strict dragon warframe o_0(I could be wrong though)?I strongly feel that this backlash is because of his helm IMO because it just isn't up to the standards of some.

"(relative to the abstract concepts mentioned) is NOT open to a wealth of interpretation since it has a "defined" physical form."

"Yes, there are many "types" of dragons from different cultures (and that's just the tip of the iceberg in terms of dragon-related inspiration"I think these two sentences contradict each other 0_0

"They treated his theme just like any other before it -- as an abstract one. We just didn't get the message this time, and many of us treated it literally."Totally Agree.

"(instead of just saying "dragon") and to apologize for misleading us about Chroma's design itself in the above way."That's putting it a little harsh IMO I mean sure it's no doubt that a group of people are disappointed but that could be said for all the warframes that have been hyped.There will always be a minority/majority that hates or dislikes something and I think that shouldn't hold back DE's Creative art team.

 

All in all a well thought out post,Good job.

Thanks :P.

You make some great points.

As I mentioned in a reply to another post, I think the backlash is due to the dragon's place in our culture. We expected something we thought was unchangeable (more or less) and when we got the output from an art team, we didn't know what to think. Most people nowadays are conditioned to think of dragons in a certain way. When DE failed to translate their thought process to us, then, an outcry resulted.

[Pretzellis]

True but i'm not entirely sure people would be satisfied with that change. Especially knowing that he would be the only dragon/dragon-inspired frame with a look that some people disapprove of.

Everyone can't be made happy; the impact can only be lessened so as to repel too much hate and misunderstanding about DE's art assets (the frame itself, for example). Oberon, while okay after all, still had a bumpy start. People kind of accept him now, lol. I personally really like him and main him from time to time.

[Invalid_Infinity]

Warframes might be controlled and repurposed Technocyte though. We know the Orokin Neural Sentry can take things under control. We do use some infested materials in building and they both typically have an organic appearance.

We can't say that with any validity because we have no real lore to base that off of. 

Yes we do use infested materials on certain weapons, those weapons have a distinctly infested look. Tenno do not.

[EmptyDevil]

 exactly, and it isnt that far fetched to have a warframe that utilizes infested material or is infested in its origins possibly.  It isn't smart, knowing the whole hive-mind thing that the infested traditionally have but maybe Tenno are more resilient then other factions?

 

I think whatever the Orokin use to control ancient infested and other factions might be more powerful than the hivemind thing. Tenno are probably immune to influence via hivemind though. I think the Warframes we war can still be communicated to by the infested with the hivemind but it has no effect on them. An example i can think of would be when Lephantis or Phorid speaks directly to use via transmission. It can't possibly have any tech or a transmitter with it to use, so it's probably speaking directly into the Warframe since they share the same "flesh".

[Sir_Alex_Traffo]

The complaints about his lack of scales are absolutely hilarious. Not all dragons have scales and Chroma will have scales in some form.

 

dataminers proved this

 

 

PM me a link to your proof. I am suspicious of that method of acquiring information and I will not treat it as fact unless I can see it's validity. 

 

No, not all dragons have scales. Just like not all lizards have scales. Still, most people don't think "scaleless" when they think of a dragon. Just like we don't think of a dragon as chroma's theme, we think of the infested.

Ok what the hell are you guys tallking about? PM me in case you can't write here!

[Pretzellis]

-Snip-

Very well stated; that's an interesting alternative.

[EmptyDevil]

We can't say that with any validity because we have no real lore to base that off of. 

Yes we do use infested materials on certain weapons, those weapons have a distinctly infested look. Tenno do not.

 

It's mostly speculation formed from bits and pieces of codex entry hints, build materials, ingame dialog, quests and various other things. It seems very likely though. I used the term controlled and repurpose for both the function and appearance of the Technocyte. Wild and infectious Technocyte could result in infesting the host and mutating them horribly. Controlled and repurposed could result in protecting the host and strengthening them. 

 

Lore is probably one of the most anticipated things from u16 for me because i love thinking about what Tenno and Warframes are.

[tocorro]

 DO take note that this frame comes with a water tileset and lack of scales eliminate water resistance(thats why eels and the like are so slimy and smooth).

 

 

Eel and alike have scales. To elimante water resistance they have thier specialized body shapes, and their glands produce mucus that cover all of their body - to eliminate water resistance.

[Ronyn]

Before all of these cosmetics were added to the game, warframe players were proud to claim that they were unaffected by the vanity bug prevalent in so many other games

I guess not, eh?

 

Complete bull. Early warframe players had a variety of opinions about that subject.

Aesthetic preference is about many things from what is identifiable, suspension of disbelief, being engulfed in playing a role....

Seriously at this point you're not defending DE's art design, you're unintentionally belittling the importance of art direction overall.

[EmptyDevil]

Eel and alike have scales. To elimante water resistance they have thier specialized body shapes, and their glands produce mucus that cover all of their body - to eliminate water resistance.

 

Eels don't have scales iirc.

[Otaiken]

Did Warframe players even deny vanity?

 

I mean... this is Warframe we're talking about. This game is build from the ground up on a "rule of cool". Entirely style over substance. There's your good visuals, nice enviroments, cool frames and weapons... now take your syandana wearing space ninja and the giant sword and slaughter few hundred enemies and then collect parts to build some golden bling.

 

I love Warframe, but deep game this is not.

 

Last update's theme was Ninjas in space! And then dogs before that... DOGS!

 

I wouldn't exactly complain about how my chess pieces look, but in Warframe this is entirely justified. Not to mention that most of the forums is filled with people trying to get some substance into the style of Warframe... the flashy and cool but ultimately useless combos and weapons being just one major example.

Edited March 10, 2015 by LocoWithGun

[-Jack.Of.Blades-]

It's mostly speculation formed from bits and pieces of codex entry hints, build materials, ingame dialog, quests and various other things. It seems very likely though. I used the term controlled and repurpose for both the function and appearance of the Technocyte. Wild and infectious Technocyte could result in infesting the host and mutating them horribly. Controlled and repurposed could result in protecting the host and strengthening them. 

 

Lore is probably one of the most anticipated things from u16 for me because i love thinking about what Tenno and Warframes are.

If DE confirms that Technocyte is the the one of the ways how armor is made I would be so excited

[AMDMAD]

That sexy anteater SUGOI

[tocorro]

Eels don't have scales iirc.

 

My bad. Returning the honor. They don't.

Most of them are scaleless. Just the minority have small scales.

After encyclopedia Britannica : "The body covering is usually scaleless. Minor departures from this overall body plan occur in the various eel families and are correlated well with different modes of life."

Edited March 10, 2015 by tocorro