Nullifiers Are The Most Broken, Badly Designed Enemies Ever

[HibikiGanaha]

That gets boring real quick. 

 

I mean, are not 99% of enemies in the game like that?

so you would rather have a guy that is immune to gun damage for 3 seconds?

 

that's way beyond bullet sponge.

[Renegade343]

so you would rather have a guy that is immune to gun damage for 3 seconds?

 

that's way beyond bullet sponge.

You do have: 

 

- Guns to actually shoot down the shield.

- Slide attacks.

- Some Warframe abilities can affect enemies outside the shield, meaning one can use them for distraction to kill the Nullifier Crewmen with little harm. 

- Slide in to shoot the Nullifier Crewmen (since that Crewmen is rather squishy). 

[HibikiGanaha]

You do have: 

 

- Guns to actually shoot down the shield.

- Slide attacks.

- Some Warframe abilities can affect enemies outside the shield, meaning one can use them for distraction to kill the Nullifier Crewmen with little harm. 

- Slide in to shoot the Nullifier Crewmen (since that Crewmen is rather squishy). 

the guy is a bullet shamwow, you can't really call that viable.  I eat one to two lanka shots in the time it takes to shrink a bubble.  Can't strafe to try and avoid it, the dude is an aimbot.

 

warframe abilities dont do anything for the units inside.

 

sliding in to do any kind of damage is a bad idea.  you could also animation lock a heavy gunner or bombard by sliding past their radial explosion trigger but you wouldnt do that because it's suicidal.  same with sliding into the death bubble.

[Renegade343]

the guy is a bullet shamwow, you can't really call that viable.  I eat one to two lanka shots in the time it takes to shrink a bubble.  Can't strafe to try and avoid it, the dude is an aimbot.

Except for the fact that the enemy is actually pretty pathetic at aiming, unless you run straight up to it?

 

warframe abilities dont do anything for the units inside.

I am talking about outside the bubble. Even the Nullifier Crewmen can get distracted by some Warframe powers. 

 

sliding in to do any kind of damage is a bad idea.  you could also animation lock a heavy gunner or bombard by sliding past their radial explosion trigger but you wouldnt do that because it's suicidal.  same with sliding into the death bubble.

I beg to differ. I do that most of the time just to get myself out of trouble while dealing damage in the process, and so far, it has worked wonders. 

[HibikiGanaha]

you must not host games  EDIT: strafe means run side to side, not directly at something.

 

only skill i can think of is loki clone

 

good for you, it's insanely high risk and good for getting out of trouble.  you don't run directly at a bombard to perform this every time.  It's a last ditch resort, just like going into a bubble should be.  unless you are telling me you do this every time and it's more efficient to kill the bombards this way rather than kill them from a distance where it's safer.

Edited January 24, 2015 by HibikiGanaha

[CriticalFumble]

If something completely invalidates their purpose, then yes. 

If we can just shoot through the shield with no problems, then what's the point of even having them? 

 

To counter abilities?  I'm not sure what more you want them to do, the only other thing that can even remotely counter abilites is the snow globe, which doesn't stop invis+melee at all.  Compensate by making them a little more durable, faster, and inclined to use cover.  The also seem to have very little in the way of spawn limits, anyway, so letting them be shot directly would be a way to allow for several on a tile to not be as excruciating for more fragile frames. 

 

Personally, I'm in favor of "skill shot" points on the bubble; or making the shield and gun on a nullifier the same thing and forcing it to either shield or fire; or making the shield single direction; or some combination of those.  The idea itself is very solid, but the implementation is crude. 

 

Also,

 

Except for the fact that the enemy is actually pretty pathetic at aiming, unless you run straight up to it?

 

That's only really true if you're playing as a client, it seems.  Otherwise the AI has seemed to have 1337 levels of aim of late.  Yes, there are ways to counter them, I'm personally a fan of rad procs in that regard, but for a unit that can mass spawn, they're incredibly dangerous with relatively few true weaknesses. 

[Renegade343]

you must not host games

I actually play T4 Extermination, Capture, Sabotage, and sometimes Interception solo. And I can dodge their fire quite nicely while pumping back enough damage to kill them. 

 

only skill i can think of is loki clone

There is: 

 

- Mirage's Hall of Mirrors.

- Saryn's Molt. 

- Invisibility powers to make them think that this is your position, then skirt around the back to pump fire into their heads. 

- Nyx's Chaos to distract the enemies within the bubble by getting enemies outside the bubble become their enemies. 

- Some Augment mods can pass through the shield and affect enemies inside. 

- Iron Skin to actually tank a blow if you really cannot dodge. 

- Bastille/Vortex to suspend/suck in the outside enemies, leaving the enemies inside the bubble up to your leisurely disposal. 

- Mesa's Peacemaker shoots any enemy inside the bubble, except the Nullifier Crewmen. 

- Limbo's Rift Walk/Cataclysm for repositioning and distraction. 

 

So, quite a few Warframes can either bypass the shield or distract the enemies within the shield for easy pickings. 

 

good for you, it's insanely high risk and good for getting out of trouble.  you don't run directly at a bombard to perform this every time.  It's a last ditch resort, just like going into a bubble should be.  unless you are telling me you do this every time and it's more efficient to kill the bombards this way rather than kill them from a distance where it's safer.

Insanely high risk? 

 

You have no idea what the risk actually is. It is quite low. 

[Stabbs]

They should just replace all the turrets and cameras on every map with nullifier shields. Maybe just remove the warframe powers altogether. This game is lacking in variety of ways to deal with enemies, why reduce that number further with an enemy like this? It's the kind of thing that should be on one single map where our mission is to stop them from building more. It's not fun.

[HibikiGanaha]

Must be my fatty saryn with her .9 run speed getting me killed.  molt doesn't always work, sometimes they shoot you.

 

 

- Doesnt guarantee you not getting shot

- same thing

- invis is a form of tank and it isnt affected by the bubble

- doesn't sound reliable

- sounds like bugs

- again just adding tank, boring  might as well throw volt shield on there so i can be immune while i whittle away bubbles

- sounds like a bug

- sounds like a bug

- can't do any damage from rift, that's limbo's only way to protect himself

 

the only things that weren't "be tankier" from that list were nyx, loki, i guess limbo, and bug abuse.

 

 

You arent going to jump into 3 bombards to try and animationlock them just like you arent going to jump into a doom bubble, h gunner, and bombard.

Edited January 24, 2015 by HibikiGanaha

[Renegade343]

Must be my fatty saryn with her .9 run speed getting me killed.  molt doesn't always work, sometimes they shoot you.

What? 

 

Are you sure you placed your Molt in a good place to draw enemy fire for a good length of time while you actually run away?

 

- Doesnt guarantee you not getting shot

- same thing

- invis is a form of tank and it isnt affected by the bubble

- doesn't sound reliable

- sounds like bugs

- again just adding tank, boring  might as well throw volt shield on there so i can be immune while i whittle away bubbles

- sounds like a bug

- sounds like a bug

- can't do any damage from rift, that's limbo's only way to protect himself

- Mirage's Hall of Mirrors will have holograms that divert away just about any enemy fire save for AoE attacks (in which you have Mirage's faster acrobatic movement passive to save you). 

- Same thing with Mirage's Hall of Mirrors. 

- You can actually cast behind cover, shoot at one spot, let all the enemies converge or aim towards that spot, while you just move away to attack them from behind without even having to get into the bubble. 

- With its already good initial range, enemies outside the bubble will then start aiming towards those inside the bubble, and a three-way fight will ensure. 

- Not really, since some Augments just leave floor hazards, which are not considered as powers (same with explosive grenades and such). 

- You asked how to counter Nullifier Crewmen, so I gave out the list that Warframes can do to counter them. 

- You affect enemies outside the bubble, not inside the bubble. 

- For an Ultimate, that is actually fine, since you are now immobile and having flat damage. 

- You can use the Rift to initiate guerrilla attacks on the Nullifier Crewmen and any enemy inside the bubble. 

 

You arent going to jump into 3 bombards to try and animationlock them just like you arent going to jump into a doom bubble, h gunner, and bombard.

Except that I actually did that, and tagged all three Bombards?

[Otakuwolf]

I have to start out by saying that Nullifiers are one of the most broken, stupid, badly designed, bulls*** enemies I have ever seen in a video game, even more so than the Pyro in Team Fortress 2.

 

As of my 2986 hours of play on TF2 i'm aware there are way too many unbalancements in the game but to the point of saying "Pyro is broken"...

"Mr Shotty" is your best friend against Pyro (as any other non projectile based weapon) if you're not silly enough to rush and go brute force against him/her/hir, but we are here to talk about Warframe anyway, basically what you want is those nullifiers let you use your powers against enemies inside the bubble from outside and reduce theyr attack range to the bubble radius (won't argue with the third point which is valid and i agree as well), and that means reducing those things to "useless" mobs to stomp like any other while are supposed to make you "play smart" or at least use some other tactic than "ability spam" or "nuking" the hell out of them with Pentas or other... "nukes".

 

I don't hate them, actually i feel nor warm or cold about them, i just spin slash to the bubble center while melee channeling and *poof !* they're gone, to me while they might indeed require some minor tweak (They make Crewmen snipers pointless since they also have a Lanka)most of  those who rage against them are the same ones that spend theyr matches spamming the same nuke abilities over and over.

You know what ? Under this aspect i'm kinda happy they exist, so people is forced to use some tactic and "git gud" rather than just "press-to-win", and i think we're gonna see more of this in the future too.

[(PSN)VariantX7]

Eh, I think the unit is fine except for the sniper rifle. Its a support unit meant to provide cover for other units and shield them from our powers while allowing them a chance to fire at us with impunity. It should be killing you indirectly by giving cover to the other ranged units. There are already sniper crewmen that could do that job and its better to give them something else like an amprex or some kind of melee

[KirukaChan]

Nullifiers infuriate me because they're good at too many things. As-is, they aren't balanced as a standard unit.

 

- They need to not be immune to stagger/knockdown. If a Tenno is ballsy enough to fly right at the Nullifier's face with a jump kick, that Nullifier needs to fall over.

- Take the Lankas away. Give them a Tetra instead. There's already a Sniper Crewman, and he doesn't need to be made obsolete.

- Fix the damn bubbles only taking RoF into account rather than damage. Automatic weapons already dominate the "meta" thanks to the hoard-based missions, we don't need even more reasons to not use snipers/bows/shotguns/launchers or other semi-autos.

 

That being said, I also had an idea for a different type of Nullifier to go along with the gun-toting one. How about one armed with a Lecta that just bum rushes you? That way, the threat of having your powers taken away is actually an approaching one, rather than just one that stands around taking potshots at you.

[Invalid_Infinity]

OP is correct. The nullifiers are broken as all hell. (Never mind the tac alert that makes you use thrown mele against them.) There needs to be a change. I know people want more difficulty but here is the thing; IT NEEDS TO BE FUN. I like dark souls level of difficulty because it is made fun and interesting. This is just horrid bullS#&$! 

[s7n7a7k7e]

I hate them.

[Nagisawa]

I dont hate them.

 

I feel they are needed enemies. These are the 1st enemies to actually pose a threat to any frame powers that you use. The fact that they actually turn off your frame powers is a GOOD thing. However, I dont think they should be armed with uber powerful sniper rifles.

I disagree.  Nerfing the players' abilities is a poor way to introduce challenge.  They should be threats while the player has ALL his powers available.

[tris1]

I agree I hate them but its because there not balanced

 

the rate the bubble decreased isn't always right such as I cant shot 2 bullets of a gun and there shield will be gone but it wont be instant it will decrease over time from those 2 bullets that's a problem you can use high fire rate wepaons or high damage the decrease rate is fixed on the bubble

 

there damage is over powered

bubble blocks ability's and bullets

crit damage doesn't work on the bubble

 

all they have to do is have the bubble stop ability's but not stop bullets I believe that's a pretty fair

[_-Malicious-Melodi-_]

I like them, they change the game. WF was quickly becoming a Run and Gun skill spam game, At least the Corpus now change that... and i hope grineer and infestation will get some soon enough as well.

[armedpoop]

I disagree.  Nerfing the players' abilities is a poor way to introduce challenge.  They should be threats while the player has ALL his powers available.

The thing is, they dont directly nerf your powers. They force you to do something other than spam powers for what? 2 seconds? I mean they are literally super fragile if you strike them with melee. Theres no power nerfs here. 

 

They just need to not be immune to stagger, or have high powered snipers.

[VoidWraith]

I feel like since their bubble nullifies Warframe abilities, bullets and projectiles that is not Warframe abilities, like say from a gun or thrown melee/shooting melee should be able to pass through the bubble and hit the Nullifier. Or at least the thing on their back is able to be destroyed resulting in an explosion that can instant kill the Nullifiers. Like with the Hellions, I'm not sure if this still happens, but if you shoot their jetpacks, it explodes, killing or almost killing the Hellion. The same should be true for the Nullifiers.

 

You can take out their backpacks that generate the bubble, nearly killing or instant killing them, or kill them the normal way with headshots or body shots, whichever you prefer. But the bubble should be "Warframe power" proof... Not be a bullet shield.... They already have those Arctic Eximus to produce those shields against bullets and whatnot.

 

If so happens that an Arctic Eximus Nullifier spawns, Then I won't really say much except bad luck, but the Nullifier's bubble should not be a bullet/projectile shield unless it's against Warframe abilities.

 

And even then, our Warframe powers should be able to damage the bubble if not the enemies inside the bubble. I mean Frost's Snow Globe and Rhino's Iron Skin has a HP value and take damage from anything, so should the bubble.

If not, then it should (for the Snow Globe and Iron Skin, as well as the Nullifier's bubble).

Edited January 24, 2015 by VoidWraith

[4G3NT_0R4NG3]

I like them, they change the game. WF was quickly becoming a Run and Gun skill spam game, At least the Corpus now change that... and i hope grineer and infestation will get some soon enough as well.

Perhaps there would be a way to have Nullifiers encourage skillful play without being COMPLETE BULLS***, for all the reasons stated in the OP.

 

As of my 2986 hours of play on TF2 i'm aware there are way too many unbalancements in the game but to the point of saying "Pyro is broken"...

You can literally play Pyro only using one foot and still do well.

 

Foot Pyro OP:

This will be the last time Pyros are mentioned on this thread. These are Warframe forums.

Edited January 25, 2015 by 4G3NT_0R4NG3

[RyojinOrion]

Pyros are funny looking. (You can't dictate whether or not Pyros will be mentioned again in this thread!)

 

 

 

I honestly don't see why people have so much of a problem with them, outside of the issues I mentioned in the first post in this thread. Even with them being the way they are now, I don't have much trouble taking them out. You can either shoot their bubble down and then kill them, or slide attack in and out of their bubble, killing them in the process. Is that really so hard for people? Honestly, people rely entirely too much on their powers anyway, IMO.

[Dogoframe]

Perhaps there would be a way to have Nullifiers encourage skillful play without being COMPLETE BULLS***, for all the reasons stated in the OP.

 

You can literally play Pyro only using one foot and still do well.

 

Foot Pyro OP:

This will be the last time Pyros are mentioned on this thread. These are Warframe forums.

 

You cant start mentioning TF2 and not have all of us TF2 players comment =) And the FootPyro? If you are effective with that, its because the players you are playing against are REALLY bad.

 

On topic, I didnt want to comment on Nulifiers before I had a couple "conversations" with them. Mostly Void, so my opinion is based on those Nulifiers (as in, maybe they differ tactically when surrounded by Corpus regulars). The bubbles are fine, and I actually liked it. Their weaponry is VERY poorly selected tho. I am not sure what it could be changed to, but snipers are a poor choice.

[Otakuwolf]

Perhaps there would be a way to have Nullifiers encourage skillful play without being COMPLETE BULLS***, for all the reasons stated in the OP.

 

You can literally play Pyro only using one foot and still do well.

 

Foot Pyro OP:

This will be the last time Pyros are mentioned on this thread. These are Warframe forums.

 

Yeah i know that vid but in pub games EVERYTHING is OP against players that have no idea what the heck are doing :P

[Noteybook]

I hate Nullifiers as well. It feels like a delayed Viver punishment, just like the void bombards. It feels even more like that when Void Nullifiers & Bombards are bugged, and have been bugged like crazy, but there has been not a peep from DE about fixing them or even attempting to balance them. 

For a unit to have so many offensive(Lanka that can instakill you, mixed with the aimbot that mobs have now), and defensive(bubble, the herb of enemies that always know to hide in the dang bubble) capabilities, there is no question it is OP. Especially when you're doing end game T3/4 Runs, and one happens to spawn in the doorway behind you with a Bombard + Heavy Gunner. It's painfully clear to me whoever designed them did NOT test them out, or even play the game with them. If you try to run long missions that have Nullifiers, good luck getting past 40~60mins. Oh, and it doesn't help they were talking about a Rotation D (SERIOUSLY?!) in addition to the bloated loot tables, which makes long runs of endless missions even more frustrating.

 

tl;dr It's awful, it detracts from the game, it does nothing to resolve any of the underlying issues of Warframe (powercreep, loot cave, etc), nor does it resolve the 4 spam(needed to survive endgame), not to mention it's lore breaking beyond belief.