Vital Sense + Point Strike = Too Much Space Taken :(

[Apex_Nemachode]

Who here thinks that it might be a good idea to get rid of point strike AND vital sense and be introduced to a new mod which is basically vital sense and point strike but as ONE mod not two. This can leave one extra slot to mod and even that can help a lot. For instance, lets take the Amprex. This weapon eats ammo faster than Scooby and Shaggy can chug down a buffet. Getting rid of the 2 mods we will be left with 1 extra mod slot where one would put rifle ammo mutator to help save ammo. Anyone here with me on this one? Or this going to be a one man army thing? (Cause' I'm going to lose if that's the case)

[APBladeX]

Unlikely but I like anything that gives me some mod space without getting rid of the benefits.

[(PSN)IIIDevoidIII]

It's unnecessary powercreep. 
Why do we need to combine them into one mod? I don't see much justification. I would understand should utility mods be combined with damage mods, but with extra damage chance and damage into one whole package, I don't think so.

 

Moved to a more appropriate subforum.

[LisRestall]

No. Having access to Crit Mods is actually a big advantage, because it's a whole new multiplier. Adding elem mods over elem mods will have diminishing returns, adding Crit Mods doesn't. Just take a look at Boltor Prime vs Soma Prime in warframe builder, you will notice that if modded right, Soma Prime actually have a better sustained compared to Boltor Prime and the reason why is due to access to Crit Mods. It's a math thing but I'll stop here, "Having access to Crit Mods is a BIG advantage".

[Apex_Nemachode]

Well they did it with Bite so why stop there? at mas rank the mod should be just 150%chance and 120%damage not asking to change the damge multipliers but just merge to mods with 1. I mean really? what would happen with just ONE more mod slot? 

[cyrus106]

A LOT WOULD HAPPEN WITH ONE MORE MOD SLOT.

[Synvul]

I agree about unnecessary powercreep. I would much prefer seeing the mods go where weapons were better suited. Seems like some weapons can have good damage and crit or status where others have low damage and not much for crit or status. 

[Apex_Nemachode]

A LOT WOULD HAPPEN WITH ONE MORE MOD SLOT.

Atleast explain

[cyrus106]

Atleast explain

I don't feel it needs to be explained. Do some simple math dude

[taiiat]

for Weapons heavily weighted into Crits, the Crit Mods are better than Split Chamber, on some even better than Serration.

 

so then it sounds like you don't approve of some Weapons being completely reliant on Crits, and i'd agree with that, that's for sure.

 

 

 

however! on the topic of this thread, why not have a Nightmare / Dual Stat Mod for Crit Chance and Crit Damage? would be interesting to see what Weapons could make use of it when used in conjunction with the existing Crit Mods. would be interesting to see some Crit Weapons that could get away with almost no Elementals, or even no Elementals at all!

 

+90% Crit Chance, +75% Crit Damage for Rifles?

+75% Crit Chance, +40% Crit Damage for Pistols? (i totally want the Crit Damage to be higher, but Target Cracker is a really horrible Mod, but i don't want to just make a new Mod that's better than it outright. Target Cracker should really be atleast +100%, preferably +125%. then a Dual Stat Mod could be +75% Crit Damage).

 

and... let's not get into a Shotgun one, since we have no Crit viable Shotguns in the game, nor do we have Crit Mods for Shotguns that are any good either.

 

oh, right, Melee.

hmm. i'm a bit hesitant here, the Melee's that are Crit viable generally rely entirely on Crits already.

but maybe +40% Crit Chance and +60% Crit Damage.

Well they did it with Bite so why stop there?

Doges were balanced around the Crit Mod being one Mod in the first place. the rest of the game isn't.

 

what would happen with just ONE more mod slot? 

one Mod Slot is a massive increase in Damage. 8 Mod Slots is already 55x Damage for non-Crit Weapons and up to 110x Damage for Crit Weapons.

 

more Mod Slots because raisons only causes problems, it doesn't solve them.

Edited January 25, 2015 by taiiat

[Rekkou]

Let's be honest, nobody is going to use that 1 slot for utility mod, it's going to be used for another damage mod. There are 8 slots, basic crit build require at least 6 mods (Serration,Split chamber, Point Strike,Vital Sense,2 Elemental). There are 2 unused slot left, if you can't make a room for utility mod within that 2 slot, high chance you won't put any on the 3rd unused slot.

[shoryukensama]

only for melee weapon not for rifles and pistols

[ROXXXY]

Do you want to make the Dread and Paris Prime godly powercreep weapons? This would give space for hammer shot and you would wreck.

[_FrostPrime_]

 

and... let's not get into a Shotgun one, since we have no Crit viable Shotguns in the game, nor do we have Crit Mods for Shotguns that are any good either.

 

Boar Prime wants a word with you.

[NezuHimeSama]

I think it would make more sense to increase the total mod capacity of weapons while reducing the mod capacity of any given type of mod.

On that note, frame builds are really cramped, and I'm constantly frustrated that X or Y build isn't possible because of a lack of mod slots, which got me thinking about an easy and early implementation of this system; bring back warframe power mods, but make a separate 5 mod slots to put them in, with the frame powers having 0 drain, and power augment mods being able to fit in these slots with reduced drain.(for matched polarity)

I think this would improve build flexibility, especially for the new power augment mods, which are, at the moment, largely either completely useless(mostly this) or totally essential to get the best out of that frame now. You could sacrifice a bit of capacity/drain and a warframe power you don't want to use to better augment the powers that you do use. With 5 slots, you could fit one augment without removing a frame power, encouraging players to experiment with the new power augments, or sacrifice a frame power for two augments(and further as more power augments can be introduced), with more power augments requiring more drain, and therefore, potentially, more forma.

This could help un-cramp some frame builds, providing more diversity without being exploited to stack MOAR POWUR on everything, and could serve as a baseline to implement similar mod restrictions down the line to further encourage build diversity and mitigate power creep.

Edited January 25, 2015 by Greenery

[taiiat]

Boar Prime wants a word with you.

nope.

zero Crit viable Shotguns.

15%/2.0x isn't Crit viable. the stats are eeh themselves and the Mods to boost them are garbage.

[RoboDoge]

Hey, while we are here, why not combing Serration, Split Chamber, Heavy Caliber and all status+element mods into one powercreep mod? That would save a lot of slots.

[Taranis49]

It's unnecessary powercreep. 

Why do we need to combine them into one mod? I don't see much justification. I would understand should utility mods be combined with damage mods, but with extra damage chance and damage into one whole package, I don't think so.

 

Moved to a more appropriate subforum.

 

As noted, there's mods like Bite as-is, which do exactly what the OP suggests. Ship's already sailed.

 

It's actually not that hard to justify either. On any weapon that can't achieve a 100% crit rate, they're only potential or probable damage rather than actual damage. It's not "damage chance + damage", it's solely "damage chance". Every time the crit roll fails, you don't just have one mod failing to perform any function, you have two - no other damage setup works that way aside from potentially status builds, and all of the viable ones require the dual-stat mods that... tack on damage in addition to increasing status chance.

 

I may not necessarily agree with the idea myself, but it's hardly unjustifiable or even unprecedented.

Edited January 25, 2015 by Taranis49

[RIOT]

do crit based weapons really need more damage!?

pls no

Edited January 25, 2015 by RIOTx

[Azawarau]

I own a 5 forma amprex

 

Theres plenty of room for Ammo mutations till

 

Drop some damage

[JakeRobber]

It's unnecessary powercreep. 

Why do we need to combine them into one mod? I don't see much justification. I would understand should utility mods be combined with damage mods, but with extra damage chance and damage into one whole package, I don't think so.

 

Obviously it would be straight stupid to combine the mods and keep the same stats.

 

How about changing the combined mod stats to 78% crit chance and 60% crit damage.  Also increase Crit Delay to 120% crit chance (same rate of fire penalty as before), and increase Hammer Shot's crit damage to 80%.

[Azawarau]

Obviously it would be straight stupid to combine the mods and keep the same stats.

 

How about changing the combined mod stats to 78% crit chance and 60% crit damage.  Also increase Crit Delay to 120% crit chance (same rate of fire penalty as before), and increase Hammer Shot's crit damage to 80%.

That would effectively kill the mods utility for red crit weapons such as the amprex that really rely on the 150 crit for that damage boost more than the crit itself

[Eric1738]

u guys just want more slot and more powercreep. not gonna happen. because combining two best crit mods into one is totally balanced

[LisRestall]

nope.

zero Crit viable Shotguns.

15%/2.0x isn't Crit viable. the stats are eeh themselves and the Mods to boost them are garbage.

Obviously, you haven't tried or probably lazing off to max Primed Ravage.

 

Go ahead and try to beat this DPH build w/o using fire rate mods,

[taiiat]

Obviously, you haven't tried or probably lazing off to max Primed Ravage.

 

Go ahead and try to beat this DPH build w/o using fire rate mods,

don't forget to uncheck Crits and then calculate yourself what's likely to happen.

Crits are averaged on Warframe Builder. that means that a mean is taken for the middleground of what's possible to happen on each shot.

 

the problem is the Crit Chance, not Crit Damage. unlike say, Latron Prime, Shotguns don't have the benefit of having a very high Crit Damage Multiplier to compensate for having lowish Crit Chance.

also can't take advantage of Weakpoint Crits past one pellet hitting due to luck.

 

 

or, we could play this game of only partially accurate paper.

 

do you feel silly yet? you average 8% more Damage per shot. however, it's super random, so some shots are going to be horrible, and some shots actually pretty good.

 

is huge RNG worth 8% average more Damage?

hmmmm?