Trend Towards Under Power Is Upsetting

[(PSN)Aryonas]

I have over 400 hours on PS4 and over 150 on PC. I have been preparing these thoughts for some time.

 

The recent weapons, mods and warframes in the game have been getting EXTREMELY under powered. What is upsetting is the response Steve Sinclair had to criticism regarding the Rakta Ballistica in Dev Stream #45. Nobody can deny that the ballistica is very rarely used. On top of that nobody can deny that the rekta ballistica is utter garbage and a waste of time.  Steve Sinclair ignored that stats wise the Rakta is actually WORSE than the original and he felt the Syndicate power (which is weird and silly in my opinion) was enough to not only bring this heap of trash up to a viable weapon, but ALSO enough to justify it's rank as a TOP TIER REWARD for Syndicates!

 

You compare the worthless Rakta to the Synoid Gammacor, which is amazing and one is forced to wonder what scale is being used to make these weapons? The super powerful Synoid Gammacor is great on it's own AND has the Entropy effect. The developers seem to think this is fine. But in the same breath say the Rakta is also fine when it is useless on it's own and relies entirely on it's Syndicate power.

 

Lets look at some other weapons. The Panthera is very cool but almost useless. You have to mod for so many things you end up chasing your tail and achieving a weapon that is still not viable. The fact that it uses 5 ammo per shot is unusual and does no favors. But the truth is that you are better off just using a Miter, which you actually must build first before you can DOWNGRADE to the Panthera!

 

Lets face it, the Kohm and Paracyst are only good for Mastery. Outside of that they are only fun to look at.

 

The Redeemer was supposed to be an amazing gun blade but has too many flaws to be used end game. The best thing going for it is the very good shotgun blast.

 

The Opticor is fun to Master, but is viable for almost nothing past mid-game since Warframe relies heavily on massive hordes of enemies.

 

The Tiberon had no special features apart from accuracy and you're better off using a Latron Wraith or Prime.

 

The Sheev is embarrassing and not much more can be said.

 

The Buzzlok has a neat gimmick but that's where it ends. As a weapon it is useless due to horde style gameplay.

 

The Glaxion fills no role and would require 4-7 forma to make useful.

 

Lets look at the past two warframes. For Limbo, I don't know what to say that could possibly convey my surprise and disgust. It's like he was made by a different game studio. They have tried to add little things to fix his issues, but I would have preferred that DE said, "We're sorry, he was not well though out. We are taking him out of the game, rebuilding him and will return him at a later date." Limbo is just a zero sum flop.

 

Mesa is not so bad but we go back to the issue of scale. Shooting Gallery and Shatter Shield are simply circumcised versions of other skills which are BETTER!  It seems that the developers are fine with how these skills exist on other warframes, but for some reason chopped them up for Mesa. Why did they go the direction of weakening the skills instead of just adding or diversifying the effects? It makes no sense.

 

I've been speaking with many people who feel the same way and have observed the same strange trends so I have been inspired to write about it. With almost 600 hours of gameplay I also know what players are doing and who they play as. I look forward to seeing a larger community view on it.

[Snyphurr]

No matter how much you yell at DE,these things will take time before getting slightly looked at.

 

Ember is a clear example.

Edited January 29, 2015 by Snyphurr

[RoboticApplesWithLasers]

there is such a fear of power creep nothing can be introduced, and the new frames can't really be compared to the older frames that have had so many balancing changes that they are near perfect to play with.  DE needs to stop being so afraid to change something, if it doesnt work you can take it out, as the players we should have a dynamic relationship with the game and be able to tell DE something without them flipping out. if we believe that X ability is not useful it shouldn't take them 9 months to decide it needs changing. (OBERON)

[cyrus106]

shatter shield: Hell no it isnt, its a great DR skill and highly undervalued.

Opticor: Its incredible even in late game

Kohm: Builds have been discovered for this puppy that make it do a WHOPPING 76K dps, dunno who told you it was weak.

Everything else I agree with

[Cryp2Nite]

There

is

no

balance

in

warframe

.

 

Not at all, not a bit.

 

~1400h gameplay and I've larned that around 1000h before.

[Kestral9999]

What's bad about Sheev, or Kohm? Both are capable of some immense damage.

Edited January 29, 2015 by Kestral9999

[RoboticApplesWithLasers]

What's bad about Sheev, or Kohm? Both are capable of some immense damage.

theres a reason the sheev was called the Tenno's razor, most player level and sold it before the buff.

[LeoLeonardoIII]

I don't understand the problem brought up with the opticor, i can annihilate hordes just fine the way i use it:3

It not only has a splash if you smack the ground with it, but with a punch through mod (i use shred for both that and to help it charge faster) i can cream whole chunks of baddies with each shot, more if i can line them up. Even MORE if I'm using nova's AMD.

[flamedance58]

Wasn't the Sheev purely for the anniversary? It not necessarily meant for DPS.

[(PSN)Aryonas]

That is untrue, as ever past balanced weapon and Warframe presently serve as a clear Benchmark. Not every released piece of gear needs 9-10 months of trials and changes when they've been done on 20+ things prior. All the balancing that comes from the past years is constantly changing the landscape of how gear works.   Instead of ignoring all that and making a "Day 1" weapon, they should be observing the current scope of gear as a benchmark and base it on that.

[Raithon07]

No matter how much you yell at DE,these things will take time before getting slightly looked at.

 

Ember is a clear example.

Counterpoint is, at least when ember had issues, they admited and admited there is a problem. now they seem to be pretty much snuffing the comunity with a "we know better we make the game" aditiude. at least thats how it comes of to me. i keep trying to give constructive feedback but when they troll mid stream about nekros changes and dont give us solid info my heads out the window. the only thing i really like about warframe anymore is the comunity. the game WAS my favorate game. untill dev choices have pretty much all but driven me away from the game. just wait for it. lockboxes are coming. more grinding is coming  RNG within RNG. I really apriciate OP several GOOD points just dont be surprised when it falls on deaf ears.

[vaugahn]

Think of it like this:

Which is easier to do and results in less hatred? Buffing something underpowered, or nerfing something overpowered?

Also, half of the things you listed are actually quite good.

[DogManDan]

On top of that nobody can deny that the rekta ballistica is utter garbage and a waste of time.  

 

You compare the worthless Rakta to the Synoid Gammacor

 

Lets look at some other weapons. The Panthera is very cool but almost useless. 

 

The Redeemer was supposed to be an amazing gun blade but has too many flaws to be used end game. The best thing going for it is the very good shotgun blast.

 

The Tiberon had no special features apart from accuracy and you're better off using a Latron Wraith or Prime.

 

The Sheev is embarrassing and not much more can be said.

 

The Glaxion fills no role and would require 4-7 forma to make useful.

 

Lets look at the past two warframes. For Limbo, I don't know what to say that could possibly convey my surprise and disgust. 

 

Mesa is not so bad but we go back to the issue of scale. Shooting Gallery and Shatter Shield are simply circumcised versions of other skills which are BETTER! 

 

I've been speaking with many people who feel the same way and have observed the same strange trends so I have been inspired to write about it. With almost 600 hours of gameplay I also know what players are doing and who they play as. I look forward to seeing a larger community view on it.

so let me break this down for you from my point of view, well at least what I have quoted above:

 

Rakta Ballistica - Well I like it and it is a solid weapon for some of the style I play in game. Fits great in certain missions and with certain frames. Can run through level 30-35 Grineer for me without adding any extra forma, just a base build. 

 

Can't compare the Rakta to the Synnoid which should not be stated the it currently is, but regardless it is a whole different style requires you to think the other is a weapon for the easy button masses.

 

Panthera is not useless, not the best weapon admittedly but not useless as it works great in a Volt built out.

 

The Redeemer is just too much fun and I have sat for many T4 Survival runs using just that weapon.

 

The Tiberon, well I guess you have it modded wrong or just that burst weapons are not your style, because it is my go too take anywhere weapon.

 

The Sheev again love the weapon since it first came out even before the changes that were made to improve it with the stance mod.

 

The Glaxion much like almost every weapon in this game requires forma to set it up for making it a solid weapon. Again this is really no different than any other weapon.

 

Limbo yeah I am not sure what too say but it requires some thought to build it and play the style. Not an easy push-4-to win frame.

 

Mesa another one of my favorite frames and it has not a thing to do with the peacemaker ability as that is my least utilized one. Great with the Muzzle Flash team based syndicate mod as well.

 

Finally I have put more hours into this game than I would imagine and I talk to people all the time and guess what I like to find and prove people wrong on what the masses or the golden cows tell you it is like.

 

A weapon or frame is only as good as you make it, and it only plays as well as you can play it, if it fits your style. The whole point of Warframe is anyone can come in find weapons & frames that fit them the best and enjoy themselves regardless of whether or not it is the "SO CALLED" best gear. 

 

If you don't believe any of my thoughts it's fine just click the big FANSITE link at the top and find me on youtube I can back it all up.

[(PSN)Aryonas]

Okay, I have to plant this flag out where you call can see it...       There are some players who have made some of the useless weapons worked. They are very proud of that fact.   YOU ARE THE MINORITY!    You do not represent success of the weapon because you've forma'd a weapon enough to make it useful.   What you DO represent is a very small, VERY LOUD, group of players who want to cheer their abilities by letting everyone know you've put a ribbon on a turd.

 

The vast majority of players are represented in my views, however they are very quiet about it and tend to simply say screw it and move on to a weapon that DOES work.

 

And I am entirely able to compare the Rakta to the Synoid. It is precisely comparisons like that which should be made because they showcase the lack of scale and balance in the present system.

 

You are not a hero if you made a terrible weapon work in some esoteric way where you endlessly say, "I made it work."   You should not have to say that at all.    Balance is about different gameplay types, not about one player working like a dog to use the Kohm or something. Anyway, keep chatting it up.

[[DE]Momaw]

Putting aside your specific examples, many of which I feel are pretty good.....

 

The thing with overpowered versus underpowered is going to depend on what you are doing with the weapon in question.  We have some superweapons that can remain usable to level 100 enemies and beyond, and these weapons unfortunately become the yardstick by which all others are measured. I suspect that DE usually starts discussions about balance by considering how well the weapon will do on the starmap, which caps out at level 40.  At this level, almost anything in the game is viable if you put some time into forming and mastering it.  But players start discussions about balance by considering how well a new weapon compares to their existing superweapons, because that's how they decide what to keep or not.

 

The problem isn't really specific weapons, the problem is more that the range of usage scenarios is incredibly broad, and players are only interested in weapons that compete at the most ludicrous range, combined with a failure on DE's part to define a clear line on their balance map beyond which they just throw up their hands and tell you that you're on your own.

[DrCrawford]

There

is

no

balance

in

warframe

.

 

Not at all, not a bit.

 

~1400h gameplay and I've larned that around 1000h before.

^^^^^^^^

 

sooner you figure this out, the sooner you can move on

[vaugahn]

OP, the Kohm is actually really good. That's kind of a bad example of an underpowered weapon, considering the absolutely insane damage it can put out.

[immolator1001]

Make a weapon really good->power creep

Make a weapon anything weaker than the soma->mastery fodder

DE can't win.

[BrazilianJoe]

 

 

Make a weapon really good->power creep
Make a weapon anything weaker than the soma->mastery fodder


DE can't win.

 

This.

 

Trend towards underpowering is not upsetting to me. If you compare the amount of negative feedback between releasing an OP weapon and nerfing it, or releasing an UP weapon and buffing it, it's really clear that the latter is way better. 

 

The devs were very upfront on it, and they have learned the hard way. 

 

Also, you have given some bad weapon examples.

 

Most (all?) Weapons and frames are not meant to be maxed out before you potato and forma them a few times. There is no demerit to a player's dedication to max out a weapons potential, you make it sound like it's a dirty thing. 

 

De is starting out the year with a good trend, revisiting the long-standing complaints of the community and bringing the old frames to a better shape. Ember is much better - she may still need some nudges - and Nekros is out today. IMO they are not just paying lip service to the "Year of Quality" claim. 

[Terumitsu]

I have no idea what you are on talking about the opticor like it's just a mid game weapon. It's amazing damage, ammo efficiency, and fun all in one. Sure, it takes a few forma but Everything you want in T4 takes a few forma. The laser bazooka will outdo any similarly built Boltor P if you take a bare minimum of time to aim while charging. That charge time, mind, can be spent in cover so as to avoid damage. Or charged up in the rift and just a quick tap of 2 will drop you back into the same plane to obliterate whatever was standing in the path of your ire.

Speaking of the Rift, I understand Limbo is not for everyone but is an amazing asset to team play and defense with his ability to protect allies and/or divide the enemy/ assassinate priority targets. You listed no substantial reasons as to why you dislike him so I can only guess that this is either just one or two encounters with trolls or just 'going with the flow' hate similar to that of assuming all Rhinos are 'bad, stupid nubcakes.'

[KlarVyvern]

Make a weapon really good->power creep

Make a weapon anything weaker than the soma->mastery fodder

DE can't win.

Whenever I see people complain it usually has to to do with the fandom itself. I mean, why would every released weapon be the top of the totem pole? Why do people expect every weapon to carry them through 60m+ TIV survival? Why should all the frames be just as good in the same field?

If the game mutated into a homogenized mess were everything is equally viable people would complain about it for not having tiers.

 

"The costumor is always right" is not to be taken literally.

Edited January 30, 2015 by KlarVyvern

[Flowen231]

There is no balance in warframe and there is no real need for it in this kind of PVE game (believe me, I'd love some balance in the game, not just saying this because don't want any). Every frame and weapon (except mk1 weps maybe?) is viable enough for 20 minutes in a t4 survival, and that's all you need to be able to get anything in the game, so in a sense, everything is viable if you want to use something for fun. Top tier frames and wepons on the other hand, go much much longer than 20, and as a result, everyone flocks to those.

 

As long as something isn't completely unplayable, it will not be fixed, that's just how this game works. And tbh, that's just fine for DE as long as people don't leave in mass. 

Edited January 29, 2015 by Flowen231

[(XBOX)Skode]

If the MAJORITY are happy with the content then i applaud DE for adding it. Does half the stuff they add stand up to the fore end game? Likely not... but is that an issue? No it is not.

 

There is very little theyve added that ive used so far that ive not been happy with, this is not me being some apologist but a guy who is judging the content on very different criteria. Ive two guys i play with most days who both look at Limbo as the best thing to ever hit Warfame, they adore the guy! They are MR7s... guys who have put a lot of hours into the game and cannot be in any way consider newbies but also not what you consider high end vets of the game like vets who are MR12-18.

 

Me? I think Limbo is fine as he is. Ive played him a lot - just like ive played a lot with every other frame in the game (i have them all). Same with most of the new weapons, i have not used them all and comparisons between Miter and the new one which its needed to make are natural but other that cases like that i dont compare A to B for no reason. With being on console i see massive long rant threads dedicated to EVERY new addition practically from the PC userbase here and i sometimes do think... "wow this is gonna be awful". Then i actually use it for myself and find myself thinking "hang on, this is fun - its not Soma Prime or Nova Prime but what have they gotta do with anything?". Mesa and her ultimate are godlike! No idea if this is Xbox One getting the patched to perfection version or not but half the issues with her raised ive not found myself personally with actually using her in person, that includes her acquisition - it was relatively painless, you would think you had to wait six months to get her the way people went on. I got her in just over a week and a half, that was not even trying all that hard neither as i had other frames still to get and build with my resources at the time.

 

Really the only thing i find myself finding from the whole sentiment of the OP with what is as good as what (be it any weapon vs end game or vs horde style of gameplay or whatever) that should be looked at is indeed making sure your syndicate gives as much value in its highest tier weapon reward as any of the others... THAT is something which should be balanced to a better degree and compariable because of the circumstances it takes to get that high for a given syndicate. Its being looked at though... DE Steve aint impressed but he seemed the only one with that sentimentality to the Sydnicate Ballistica of the team on the devstream.

[DogManDan]

Okay, I have to plant this flag out where you call can see it...       There are some players who have made some of the useless weapons worked. They are very proud of that fact.   YOU ARE THE MINORITY!    You do not represent success of the weapon because you've forma'd a weapon enough to make it useful.   What you DO represent is a very small, VERY LOUD, group of players who want to cheer their abilities by letting everyone know you've put a ribbon on a turd.

 

The vast majority of players are represented in my views, however they are very quiet about it and tend to simply say screw it and move on to a weapon that DOES work.

 

And I am entirely able to compare the Rakta to the Synoid. It is precisely comparisons like that which should be made because they showcase the lack of scale and balance in the present system.

 

You are not a hero if you made a terrible weapon work in some esoteric way where you endlessly say, "I made it work."   You should not have to say that at all.    Balance is about different gameplay types, not about one player working like a dog to use the Kohm or something. Anyway, keep chatting it up.

 

 

Well since I can tell this was directed right at my statement, I am glad to see you are riled up about it. Have you ever thought about what happens when the next weapons are introduced into syndicates? The balance of power shifts and you will probably be back complaining how weak the Suda weapon is compared to the Red Veil weapon and that there is no balance blah blah blah.

 

The game, weapons, and frames are what you make of it. The reason it is the majority of people saying that weapons are junk has so many factors in it, some of which big predominate players come out and say so and so the immediate negative impact hits and spreads like wildfire never giving it a chance.

 

With the exception of melee weapons again almost all weapons require forma to become great. The Rakta is a solid mid-tier weapon and the synnoid is yet again another one of those easy high end weapons that require no thinking. I will stick with weapons that present a challenge and require me to actually use tactics in my gameplay.

[Janzer]

Okay, I have to plant this flag out where you call can see it...       There are some players who have made some of the useless weapons worked. They are very proud of that fact.   YOU ARE THE MINORITY!    You do not represent success of the weapon because you've forma'd a weapon enough to make it useful.   What you DO represent is a very small, VERY LOUD, group of players who want to cheer their abilities by letting everyone know you've put a ribbon on a turd.

 

The vast majority of players are represented in my views, however they are very quiet about it and tend to simply say screw it and move on to a weapon that DOES work.

 

And I am entirely able to compare the Rakta to the Synoid. It is precisely comparisons like that which should be made because they showcase the lack of scale and balance in the present system.

 

You are not a hero if you made a terrible weapon work in some esoteric way where you endlessly say, "I made it work."   You should not have to say that at all.    Balance is about different gameplay types, not about one player working like a dog to use the Kohm or something. Anyway, keep chatting it up.

 

Your point of view is extremely skewed to only what you see. If you interact and talk with a lot of players, get into random groups etc. you'll find most players tend to not have a lot of forma to spend on weapons.

 

Some people have forma'd their weapons to high ends, and I'm not one of them. I don't believe I've ever spent more than 2 forma on a weapon or frame, in order to find it usable or fun. Maybe the Tiberon I spent three and that was because I just loved it and wanted to just fine tune and hone it in on what I wanted to do with that weapon.

 

Most weapons I don't bother to forma at all. I get by decently enough. I would say I'm in the minority of players that doesn't look at the stats and immediately call a weapon poop because of the numbers. That would be true. I tend to use the weapon through the levels. I do not take it to an xp farm and let it auto hit rank 30 and then use it for a mission or two after throwing in a stock build and call it poop.

 

I do that because using it through the levels will make you find ways to adapt to how the weapon works, not try to force the weapon to do what you think it should. At the end of that time, if you're relied on the weapon enough you can make a pretty good point to stand on when you later say, "this weapon I feel needs some help in this area, based on this..."

 

Or you could just pick weapons that are popularly picked on as "underpowered" because you haven't taken the time to find out how they can best be utilized.

 

Not every weapon/frame should be compared to the most damaging weapon/frame. If that were the case, we'd have all weapons that function in exactly the same way with no distinction at all.

 

A lot of people enjoy the Dragon Nikana. I have a dissenting opinion about it, not based on it's damage out put, but based on how it doesn't work well for my play style. BUT THAT'S MY OPINION! That doesn't mean the weapon needs a buff because I find that it isn't as friendly towards mobility as a dagger is. That would be crazy right?

 

You can compare two weapons all you want, but the truth is, if you're comparing ANY weapon to the highest kill count type weapon, it's not going to stack up. If you're expecting the firing function of the Ballistica to be modeled after that of the firing function of the Gammacor.....well....they're just not the same. It's like expecting the Dual Cestras to function like the Castanas.

 

Just about everything you listed could use some tweaking, but I don't agree much with you're saying they are overwhelmingly underpowered. I bet you can say that Volt is no good for melee fighting either eh? I think the point of one player being able to use a weapon or frame a certain way, without massive quantities of forma or "tricks" shows that the weapon is capable of more than what others may have assumed without trying on their own, or ignored prior to actually using the weapon.

 

Lastly, no need to be snarky with your comment about "keep chatting it up". If you don't agree, fine, you don't agree. We're here to provide our feedback on the game, not attack each other because we don't agree 100%. Good luck out there, Tenno.