SnakeWildlife Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 (edited) Extensive Stress Testing to Level 200 content. We have been testing non stop with a End-Game, Min-Maxed Pure-Summoner build which consists of: (all mods maxed) Blind Rage, Intensify, Transient Fortitude, Narrow Minded, Constitution, Primed Continuity, Redirection, Streamline because in all games i play, i am always most addicted in playing a summoner type class as my main character, and playing it to the end of the game. The results so far: Summon AI : Between 60-90% on average of a summons Lifetime is spent 'Taking Cover' or 'Dawdling about' in situations where each npc fights each other to be able to all hop down or jump up a single ledge and otherwise walking around and NOT seeking and charging towards a new target and what they should be doing, Firing/being in actual combat. Health Points : This actually seems to be perfect right now. Results taken showed that between 40-60% of Summons make it to the end of their duration in constant-attack situations, able to take hits now. This should be left where it is. Damage : Considering how much i min-maxed the Strength of this build to have as many summons as i could all out at once, i expected my summons to wreck things like a train (especially considering that making such a summoner is not only extremely expensive, but it makes YOU the Nekros, a super squishy piece of paper that dies rediculously fast). Unfortunately it is not the case. They are certainly stronger than before but they still do not perform up to the level of expectation. We recorded in constant-battle situations that the summons were able to make 11-16 Kills per Minute (2-6 per minute on a normal-player nekros). This is a very low turn-out, and i think what DE did not take into consideration, was that Enemies are constantly recieving re-inforcements. Other Warframes are able to output this many kills, in a mere 1 second, and they have much greater survivability. Self Survivability : In almost all games with a Summoner type class, the whole point of the summons, is to take aggro away from the Summoner in order to protect him. Even though we could summon a great deal of enemies, through extensive gameplay we found that enemy opponents had a higher chance (and prefered to) to shoot at (and quickly murder) you the Nekros, rather than combatting the Summons right in front of their faces when they are in clear sight. If you Nekros were in sight, and a valid target amongst another 10 of your summons and your summons are closer to that enemy opponent, the enemy opponent still in many times we tested, prefered to shoot at YOU than the summons who are firing at the enemies face at a more closer range. This didnt seem right at all, and the temporary solution was to hide behind rocks and corners...not very nekros-like and it took away your ability to play at later levels of gameplay because it is way too easy for the Nekros to fall over like paper. Feedback from those Results: Summon AI : -Disable 'Take Cover' / 'Im hurt! i must hide!' Actions. This will cause an improvement in aggressiveness. -Fix an issue where Summons are struggling to hop up and down ledges. This will fix Time-Consumption problems based on where you make your summon. HP : Good! No feedback. Damage : -Change +150% Base Extra Damage Bonus on summons, to somewhere between +250% - +300%. Self Survivability : Multiple options 1. Allow summons to cause large aggro on enemies and temporarily ignore the Nekros. There's multiple ways it could be done. 1a. Summons gain 20% Chance to Taunt enemy target on hit. or 1b. Summons Taunt all targets in a very large area when created. or 1c. Nekros wipes his own threat, being an invalid target to the AI during the summoning, which will force nearby enemies to find a new target. (nekros dies all too often during his summoning) or 1d. Allow Nekros to create his summons at a fixed distance of up to 60m, based on Cursor position. 2. Significant Increase to Nekros' Armor from 65 to between 120-190 3. Any idea's? he just feels overly-squishy. (We disclude Terrify from the equation because to maximize the summon duration, you sacrifice most of the Range on Terrify, so in conclusion terrify doesnt actually help a maxed summoner nekros because in most cases, you Terrify 0 targets) Thank you for reading. I hope our stress tests help you retune the Summons. The Nekros patch was definitely a (as many people are already saying) a step in the right direction, but they still need a bit of a buff, and definitely a few fixes. Edited February 8, 2015 by SnakeWildlife Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StinkyPygmy Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 I'll have to try this out for myself but those are some interesting results. On the last point, I think it would make more sense for shadows to draw more agro rather then increasing his armor, Just suits his theme better and the extra armor wont make a massive difference in his survivability even with Steel fiber. He definitely shouldn't have more base armor then saryn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Narauko- Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Power Strength only effects the amount summoned. I couldn't agree more on their behaviour they spend 80% of the time doin nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dadaddadada Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 The on-field testing is real on this one. Very nice job. I think that the damage and HP of the Shadows should more heavily affected by Power strenght, rather than a flat increase in damage output as you suggested. The only think I don't agree with is the armor increase suggestion. It won't help. Don't do that. Anything less than 1200 armor is of futile use in any given situation anyway because it simply doesn't scale enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnakeWildlife Posted January 30, 2015 Author Share Posted January 30, 2015 Power Strength only effects the amount summoned. I couldn't agree more on their behaviour they spend 80% of the time doin nothing. I know, but still the base damage bonus they recieve doesnt go far enough. I min max Strength so i can summon as many as i can in one go. Wether im playing Diablo 2 Necromancer, Guild Wars summoner, Champions Online Pet Master, i love having as many, and as powerful Summons/Pets as i can run with (Thats how i play many games, i just love it!). Warframe definitely allows a good number of Summons to be achieved, but if they dont do enough damage or perform any good, the whole idea crumbles down and people will just choose another frame or go back to Desecrating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
--F--NerevarCM Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 didnt like the armor increase, Nekros is a summoner/necromancer, not a tanker/dark knight, but I like the aggro idea and the behavior change Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[DE]Momaw Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 I can't help but feel that you kind of shot yourself in the foot here. You complain several times saying that Nekros is too fragile, yet you also acknowledge that you crippled his only defensive ability with a highly specialized build for Shadows. :-/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnakeWildlife Posted January 30, 2015 Author Share Posted January 30, 2015 (edited) I can't help but feel that you kind of shot yourself in the foot here. You complain several times saying that Nekros is too fragile, yet you also acknowledge that you crippled his only defensive ability with a highly specialized build for Shadows. :-/ Because if you build Large Range for Terrify, you lose a great deal of Summons, and even still, you die nearly instantly in later levels, from tiny snippets of bullets pinging you from a range you cant reach unless you REALLY bump up the range...and then you lose even more summons and effectiveness. Simply put, you cannot build for Duration, Strength, add Range, and have Redirection + Vitality and have enough energy to keep going at it. It just doesnt fit. Not enough slots for what you are suggesting. Edited January 30, 2015 by SnakeWildlife Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KittyDarkling Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 didnt like the armor increase, Nekros is a summoner/necromancer, not a tanker/dark knight, but I like the aggro idea and the behavior change Armor doesn't make you a tank in Warframe. Abilities that block or redirect damage do. For instance: Rhino - Iron Skin Frost - Bubble Valkyr - Hysteria Trinity - Link The only exception might be Valk because she has literally 400% the armor of the second most armored Warframe in the game. Which by the way she's technically the "least armored" warframe lore wise seeing as she doesn't... ave any.. or skin for that matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unknow99 Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 Make us able to lead the AI ourseeeeeelves!!!!! What language do I need to use to make them understand this?! If we have the option to command them with simple orders like "go to that location"/"kill this target"/"stay close to me"/ = No more AI pathing problem! No more AI staying in cover while you want them to go with you!! Si vous nous donnez le choix de commander nos ombres avec des ordres simples comme "allez là"/"tuez ce type"/"couvrez-moi"/"formation serrée" on aura plus tous ces problèmes d'IA !! I...Sorry it upsets me a little but a suggestion this practical can't be ignored.Instead of coding an AI who reads the mind of the player, let the player control it!? I need my pills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sea_Wall Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 New Syndicate Shadows of the Dead mod! "Your summons now idle 50% less at max rank!" T-thanks DE. You know it to be true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoboso Posted January 30, 2015 Share Posted January 30, 2015 The AI always hiding is a AI feature (no really) designed to prevent the player from killing the enemies instantly. however on SotD we only get the minions temporarily anyways so suicide rush please we would also like to ability to influence the actions of our allied AI, like a marked enemy has increased (X3) aggro from our allies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dyvinex Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Having ran with and witnessed this all I have to agree with almost everything said, though I would like to see the strength of summons scale with power strength rather than flat damage value as well. A strength Nekros would also benefit from an ability Augment that makes Desecrate cause the affected corpses to explode and deal AOE Blast/toxin/something! This could scale strength and the damage base value would be based on the slain enemies' HP. Say base the explosion deals 150% the Desecrated enemy corpses' HP. The % could go up with strength, and the range with Power Range. I feel an augment like this would give Nekros more late game damage (and allow one to be that so-loved Desecrate bot still). Plus SotD corpses can be Desecrated, so it would make using SotD even more useful if it got the much needed re-tuning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrPigman Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 i agree completely. lets make the summons feel like a 4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dyvinex Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 (edited) I honestly think this forum is flooded with so much concerning Nekros that the devs HAVE to know changes need made. We just need to make sure they know what changes to make. Posts like this that provide numbers and true testing should be seen. Keep giving feedback, people. Edited February 4, 2015 by Dyvinex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ograzzt Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Lack of damage could be because of enemy armor. Did you used 4 CP auras? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PsychoticMarik Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Lack of damage could be because of enemy armor. Did you used 4 CP auras? I know your simply asking about this, but if the only way to make this ult do actual damage is to bring 4 CP auras...then isnt something wrong with that ult? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superbot34 Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 (edited) What language do I need to use to make them understand this?! If we have the option to command them with simple orders like "go to that location"/"kill this target"/"stay close to me"/ = No more AI pathing problem! No more AI staying in cover while you want them to go with you!! they could probably easily implement something where you target one of your shadows and use the waypoint command, which makes that unit stick to you similar to a specter. they will have a green waypoint on them and will show up on your map as a green dot instead of a blue one. this way you can at least single out a heavy unit of yours as a bodyguard as you move around. im sure that wouldnt be hard to do. then you just waypoint it again to disable. at least shadows do generally follow you while still being relatively intelligent. mind controlled targets are complete dunces. Edited February 4, 2015 by superbot34 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dyvinex Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 I know your simply asking about this, but if the only way to make this ult do actual damage is to bring 4 CP auras...then isnt something wrong with that ult? My thoughts exactly. One should not have to use Auras to FIX an ability. They are augments to them, not fixes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrazilianJoe Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Nekros should become a shadow himself at casting time. It would shed off all the procs it received, and become intangible shadow himself. It means: Can pass through enemies Can't hurt enemies Can't be hurt by enemies Is non-targetable, forcing enemies to look for other threats. The 'Shadow Form' should last 5 seconds AT MOST. It is just an "oh-S#&$" for Nekros to make a quick escape. Nekros can use the ROLL action to leave Shadow Form prematurely (so it can deal damage). Sumonned Shadows should have higher aggro priority on enemy's AI than warframes, to better perform their duties of being meat shields. Ant they should be transparent to Warframe weapons, bullets should pass through them without the need of punch-through mods. (and the OP aforementioned AI improvements to Shadows too). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unknow99 Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 they could probably easily implement something where you target one of your shadows and use the waypoint command, which makes that unit stick to you similar to a specter. they will have a green waypoint on them and will show up on your map as a green dot instead of a blue one. this way you can at least single out a heavy unit of yours as a bodyguard as you move around. im sure that wouldnt be hard to do. then you just waypoint it again to disable. at least shadows do generally follow you while still being relatively intelligent. mind controlled targets are complete dunces. Yeah, waypoints are the future man. They just need to do this, and shadows/mind controlled enemies/kubrows/hostages would have its benefits! No more dumb AI vs player issues : you'd have them in control... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kruglov Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 If Nekros summons had similar AI to Tenno Spectres or Kubrows, most of this wouldn't be a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KittyDarkling Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Yeah, waypoints are the future man. They just need to do this, and shadows/mind controlled enemies/kubrows/hostages would have its benefits! No more dumb AI vs player issues : you'd have them in control... shadows/mind controlled enemies/kubrows yes, Rescue targets, no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnakeWildlife Posted February 4, 2015 Author Share Posted February 4, 2015 (edited) The MOA AI is a good example. Run up into firing range > Fire. Thats it. No dodging or rollovers or cover taking. I dont care if they run off, so long as theyre going towards a target and engaging and not time-wasting. Edited February 4, 2015 by SnakeWildlife Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unknow99 Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 shadows/mind controlled enemies/kubrows yes, Rescue targets, no. Why not? Can you develop? :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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