New Players Get Good Stuff Way To Early.

[tzaeru]

Locking stuff behind Mastery Ranks and so on, is really just an artificial band-aid solution. You can't fix inexistent balance by just making higher tier weapons take more Mastery Rank to get. That's just fodder. Also, if better gear is rewarded to player the more experienced he is but he will be doing same content all the time (-> The Void), then you're going to see his challenge-curve go down in an exponential manner. That's bad.

 

Putting focus on balancing existing weapons, synergizing weapons and Warframes better, going for a wider array of useful mods and adding drawbacks to mod selections (with almost all weapons, there are 6 out of 8 mods that you pretty much ALWAYS use. The rest 2 are mainly faction-dependent... The most actual build variety you typically get, is whether to use Hammershot or not and at what rank if it is used) would work better in long-term, as well as adding 'sidegrades' you can pursue. It's a major issue that the game has too easily defineable "best" builds for weapons and frames. It makes it pointless to pursue anything but a single goal for those weapons and frames.

 

 

Hi I know this kind of topic has been mentioned before but as I was reading a post on reddit from a guy with 80h in the game and owning Boltor Prime and Dread through recruit and trade channel.

 

I started to farm for Prime parts with under 80 hours in-missions and mastery rank 3 or 4.. They're no challenge, time-consuming at most.

Edited February 11, 2015 by tzaeru

[mejulio]

Locking stuff behind Mastery Ranks and so on, is really just an artificial band-aid solution. You can't fix inexistent balance by just making higher tier weapons take more Mastery Rank to get. That's just fodder. Also, if better gear is rewarded to player the more experienced he is but he will be doing same content all the time (-> The Void), then you're going to see his challenge-curve go down in an exponential manner. That's bad.

 

Putting focus on balancing existing weapons, synergizing weapons and Warframes better, going for a wider array of useful mods and adding drawbacks to mod selections (with almost all weapons, there are 6 out of 8 mods that you pretty much ALWAYS use. The rest 2 are mainly faction-dependent... The most actual build variety you typically get, is whether to use Hammershot or not and at what rank if it is used) would work better in long-term, as well as adding 'sidegrades' you can pursue. It's a major issue that the game has too easily defineable "best" builds for weapons and frames. It makes it pointless to pursue anything but a single goal for those weapons and frames.

 

 

 

I started to farm for Prime parts with under 80 hours in-missions and mastery rank 3 or 4.. They're no challenge, time-consuming at most.

This interesting information. It is nice to read someone who seems to have a handle on the game. This gives me a lot of food for thought thank you.

[Rorgal_Sina]

There's not a solid power progression in Warframe as of yet, and I'm hoping the quest system will slowly help new players upgrade. If DE wants to make money through Prime Access or Platinum from new players, then oh well.

 

PS: Now that I think of it, Warframe is in a weird place right now.

 

Average Power Progression: Weak -> Strong

 

Warframe Power Progression: Strong -> Mastery Fodder (Shows us how many things need to be buffed...)

[mejulio]

I'm not a snob. I hope everyone becomes a vet. I don't want to say "I'm better" or anything like that. And I do answer the occasional question for newbs. But few things are more irritating than people asking questions covered in the wiki. And the difference between looking at Warframe-Builder and asking someone is that they have already put the information there for you to see. All you have to do is show the initiative to type "warframe-builder" into google.

You seem to the only one who feels offended about the word snob. I did not call you a snob I said that I would not make that assumption because I don't like to assume anything about anybody your probably a great fellow but me thinks you protest to much about a word that more than likely is not you. This too can be considered a sign and that I might have hit nerve. A person of your education should see this. I thought being a scientist would not assume anything. Assuming things about a person might not be a good idea because you never who your really talking to over the internet.

 

Stick with you opinions about the subject and stop letting me rent space in your head.

Warframe builder but they don't explain anything they just show a list of builds. Because having of some experience, I try to interpret the reason why I should use this build or that but not even knowing why, by just following blindly on these builds you might not under stand that it is for max effect to you for snowglobe and just maybe if you did you might be more useful to your squad.

 

I also use youtube which give some explanation of there builds. They explained why they use this mod or that mod. That was how I learned. I would not ever seek you out for your help because but I do know some Vets who are more than capable of giving me direct answer and advice. What's wrong with that. You state that you want everybody to become a Vet but different people play for different reasons some play casually because they like the game. What's wrong with that. IT"S A GAME so have fun with it maybe part of of the fun could be to help knew people understand the system. I know more then a few high level players that do it so what's wrong with that. IT'S A GAME. There were some higher level players who just ignored me but I didn't give up (something I learned in the Army) and found high level players that were more than willing to help. But my experience is that there were more not willing to help, than those willing to help.

I don't know if it's true but you don't seem to the helpful type. 

But stating that "you answer the occasional question for newbs" lets you open to questions of your "occasional" answers to the newb. Just what does that mean? What is the frequency of this rare occasion There also seem to be intolerance of question by "becoming irritated" with them. I can think of many things more irritating then someone asking a stupid question.

So please don't assume anything about me. You can just ask me and I will tell you. Just by my typing and the format  that I use gives away my age. I have told you my age how about you. Just what is your field and were did you go for your graduate studies? Isn't that annoying to be questioned about the validity of your credentials so why do assume about me so much? All of those question has nothing to do with the topic, so stay on the topic because I won't give in to a youngster like you or anybody I'm to old for that. Oh you don't want to say your better but you just did do that in your statement "I don't want to say I'm better". Do you mean that your not better then anybody or just don't want to say?

 

If I have offended you by my choice of words than I apologize to you or anyone else that I have posted to. 

note: I have the right and ability to change my mind if the posts have merit. I can also be persuaded to examine a different point of view. Your view does not have that effect on me.

Edited February 12, 2015 by mejulio

[(XBOX)Skode]

Its a double edged sword... we can moan about easy access to Boltor Prime and how its pay to win (seriously i STILL get stunned at the sigh of MR2 players with a Boltor Prime, Synoid Gammacor and Dragon Nikana loadout even though its becoming the "norm") but at the same time can we despise pay to win newer players when we ourselves (as in the vets) are the ones who is selling them these elite weapons... its not like they personally can access, grind and acquire all four parts for a Boltor P without help of more experienced and less squishy players.

 

None the less i do have to agree... Prime weapons should have a MR stamp on them. This wont negate awesome weapons being available day one for newer players (Stalker pack for example) but at least those who have them day one will have at least paid the company for their efforts to acquire them - ive seen Boltor primes go for 50 a lot these days as the demand for them has shrunk so much because everyone and their dog has one. Basically it means for those who want to pay can do so - one of the best weapons the game has to offer and for less than the price of a syndana!

[CY13ERPUNK]

Oh right. We are all soooo concerned for the new player that we want to restrict what they use for their own good. We shouldn't allow new players to have any fun until they slave in the mines of mercury for at least 200 hours, then they are allowed out into the light of day.

 

get off yer freakin high horse

 

we both played back in CB and there were no prime weapons back then

 

since prime gear is all a direct upgrade to the non-prime versions, it makes no sense that its not MR-locked higher than the non-prime versions

 

if a new player only has to get a few MR ranks then they can have all the most powerful weapons in the game, their incentive to grind out the rest of the MR-fodder weapons is not only much lower, but they are now just doling along in drudgery/misery

 

there are plenty of viable gear choices for lower MR players, they dont 'need' prime gear that soon, why cant they have fun with the rest of the weapons/frames ingame huh?

[Archistopheles]

get off yer freakin high horse

Read the rest of the thread, bud. We already covered that.

there are plenty of viable gear choices for lower MR players, they dont 'need' prime gear that soon, why cant they have fun with the rest of the weapons/frames ingame huh?

We didn't 'need' Excalibur Prime, either. Part of gaming, if not all of gaming, is 'want', not 'need'. Nobody wants to be a scrub. Everyone wants the best gear. Getting the best gear 20 hours into the game does not "kill" the experience. Anyone who has quit would've quit regardless of what gear they got when.

[PainKiller6891]

This topic has gotten way larger than I expected and there are so many good points in here that I can only say, thank you.

Right now I can only type through my cell phone and it kind of sucks so I keep it short. I will update my entry blog with some additional news as soon as I can get to my laptop.

As I see it though all of you comments is that not the weapon progression could determine if one is a goof or bad player or what else and simply locking stuff behind a Mastery rank is not the way to go. I mean mastery is only a lot of weapons. I am Mastery 16 and no real ambition to go higher so may others. And I totally think there might be players with mastery 6 or whatever and having more playtime and understanding of the game then me. They just refused to lvl weapons and frames etc. That's all.

I am really looking forward to things like Focus system, better stealth mechanics and the high lvl raids. These may change a lot or maybe not.

I can live with people buying stuff to support the game I like that much so be fine.

To be really honest I realized that my problem was not the new player having heavy loadout it is another point.

When a new player gets carried to any high mission and they are not well equipped they mostly act totally cool. They are willing to learn and I had the greatest time in this game with mastery 2 players. But I had so so many games where I was matched with a rather new player with heavy loadout and playing the game kind of dumb. Yes I know I can not say what is dumb but I mean they did not understand core mechanics of the game and weren't even listening if they get told other things. I was upset about bold players with to low experience and playing S#&$ so kind of though about this. But yes just locking weapons away even for the sake of balancing and "fun" is not the way to go. I never wanted to insult anyone I had a poor attempt to change those players by forcing them to "learn" and that was silly. Thanks for all the discussion here.

[HibikiGanaha]

No need to be rude. He has a point. rank 0s shouldnt have rhino prime and boltor primr. Just give them a mastery rank requirement, simple solution

you can't trade until mr2, so how do they get boltor and rhino p at mr 0?

[mejulio]

You seem to the only one who feels offended about the word snob. I did not call you a snob I said that I would not make that assumption because I don't like to assume anything about anybody your probably a great fellow but me thinks you protest to much about a word that more than likely is not you. This too can be considered a sign and that I might have hit nerve. A person of your education should see this. I thought being a scientist would not assume anything. Assuming things about a person might not be a good idea because you never who your really talking to over the internet.

 

Stick with you opinions about the subject and stop letting me rent space in your head.

Warframe builder but they don't explain anything they just show a list of builds. Because having of some experience, I try to interpret the reason why I should use this build or that but not even knowing why, by just following blindly on these builds you might not under stand that it is for max effect to you for snowglobe and just maybe if you did you might be more useful to your squad.

 

I also use youtube which give some explanation of there builds. They explained why they use this mod or that mod. That was how I learned. I would not ever seek you out for your help because but I do know some Vets who are more than capable of giving me direct answer and advice. What's wrong with that. You state that you want everybody to become a Vet but different people play for different reasons some play casually because they like the game. What's wrong with that. IT"S A GAME so have fun with it maybe part of of the fun could be to help knew people understand the system. I know more then a few high level players that do it so what's wrong with that. IT'S A GAME. There were some higher level players who just ignored me but I didn't give up (something I learned in the Army) and found high level players that were more than willing to help. But my experience is that there were more not willing to help, than those willing to help.

I don't know if it's true but you don't seem to the helpful type. 

But stating that "you answer the occasional question for newbs" lets you open to questions of your "occasional" answers to the newb. Just what does that mean? What is the frequency of this rare occasion There also seem to be intolerance of question by "becoming irritated" with them. I can think of many things more irritating then someone asking a stupid question.

So please don't assume anything about me. You can just ask me and I will tell you. Just by my typing and the format  that I use gives away my age. I have told you my age how about you. Just what is your field and were did you go for your graduate studies? Isn't that annoying to be questioned about the validity of your credentials so why do assume about me so much? All of those question has nothing to do with the topic, so stay on the topic because I won't give in to a youngster like you or anybody I'm to old for that. Oh you don't want to say your better but you just did do that in your statement "I don't want to say I'm better". Do you mean that your not better then anybody or just don't want to say?

 

If I have offended you by my choice of words than I apologize to you or anyone else that I have posted to. 

note: I have the right and ability to change my mind if the posts have merit. I can also be persuaded to examine a different point of view. Your view does not have that effect on me.

Edited February 11, 2015 by mejulio

[Educated_Beast]

So let them get burned put, why should I care.

I'm actually having fun with the new weapon augment mods running non standard builds (hek, mire, and the life leech pistol - forget the name offhand).

There is plenty to do. If they have no imagination or drive, let them move on. Don't need em anyway.

[ThePresident777]

Games are supposed to be fun regardless of gear.  It sounds like reddit guy never liked the game itself and that he's just a power pack rat.  Why should the rest of us have to lose out because of him?

[IggySnow]

doesn't most of the power from weapons come from mods? and most of the grind and progression comes from the mods too. I can get a taxi to any node I want, any void mission I want but no matter what the weapon you use isnt going to cut it in high level areas unless you have spent the time, the effort, and the credits to level your mods, forma your gear, and put potatoes on them too. 

 

 

IMO one of the biggest problems is that people can just buy power. the fact you can buy a R10 mod ruins the entire aspect of progression and the sense of earning your power.

 

If DE really dose care about player progression they would take away taxieing, which they wont do. they would stop the ability to trade mods, which they wont do because it makes them a S#&$ ton of money. AND they would put a mastery restriction on a lot more things which is the only thin i could see them doing. 

 

or maybe just put a mastery restriction on the void? like "sorry tenno you need prove yourself more before i can permit you to go to the void. Its far to dangerous for you" (in lotus's voice)

[SilentManiaq]

It must just be how my words are coming across in this thread. I'm really not trying to be a butt, but it seems my words are betraying me.

I hold the opinion that those players, who others have said "Quit the game because they got the best stuff right away and got bored" would have gotten bored regardless.

It's not the gear, it's the game. If they don't like the game, they wouldn't have liked it any better if they had "progressed" through it. Please. We aren't a story rich game. If players aren't having fun killing stuff, they are going to quit. That's the bottom line.

u wot mate? you do realize the only fun about this game is getting new stuff it frigin repeats itself 5 times in only one session of game. its the gameplay? thats it you seriously think its about that then im out of here you are not even worth arguing

[Archistopheles]

u wot mate? you do realize the only fun about this game is getting new stuff it frigin repeats itself 5 times in only one session of game. its the gameplay? thats it you seriously think its about that then im out of here you are not even worth arguing

It's almost as though different people play for different reasons. Thank you for determining my worth based on a single opinion, though. It certainly makes me feel happy.

[IggySnow]

u wot mate? you do realize the only fun about this game is getting new stuff it frigin repeats itself 5 times in only one session of game. its the gameplay? thats it you seriously think its about that then im out of here you are not even worth arguing

I like the gameplay too .o. 

 

sometimes i end up just wall running and jumping around my dojo for 20+ min because i find it entertaining :P

[Samplon]

"New players get good stuff way too early?"

 

How about you worry about yourself? What new players get or can't get is their business.

[DeMonkey]

"New players get good stuff way too early?"

 

How about you worry about yourself? What new players get or can't get is their business.

Bit of a silly way of looking at it, this isn't about individuals, rather it's about the community which makes it everyone's business, if some members of the community feel that new players have access to high tier weapons far too early then they have the right to vocalise these opinions. 

 

or maybe just put a mastery restriction on the void? like "sorry tenno you need prove yourself more before i can permit you to go to the void. Its far to dangerous for you" (in lotus's voice)

Lore friendly and would help solve this problem. Perhaps add in a quest as well introducing players to the void.

[MisterUltimate]

These threads tend to flare up and die for a very simple reason. Locking more gear, especially for higher mastery ranks, would only make sense if Warframe had a character progression system, which Mastery is not.

We don't level characters. We level gear, and that's a means to an end: Being more viable in higher and higher levels of content.

Suggesting that someone be required to level gear in order to level gear is ludicrous. Spending X amount of time farming infinity for a collection of garbage you pulled out of the foundry doesn't make you worthy of the best gear. Romanticize your trip from MR0 to whatever you are now all you want, but that is exactly how you earned that rank. That's how we all earned our ranks. How do I know? Because beyond unlocking nodes (which contains only enough mastery for rank 2) that is the only way.

I'm all for the idea of giving players something to achieve. Exploring gameplay content to unlock top level gear? Making myself more powerful to earn the best weaponry? Count me the @$!# in!

Unfortunately, that's not Warframe. I don't know if it's ever gonna be Warframe. It would be nice, but that's not what the system is designed for.

[DrBorris]

These threads tend to flare up and die for a very simple reason. Locking more gear, especially for higher mastery ranks, would only make sense if Warframe had a character progression system, which Mastery is not.

We don't level characters. We level gear, and that's a means to an end: Being more viable in higher and higher levels of content.

Suggesting that someone be required to level gear in order to level gear is ludicrous. Spending X amount of time farming infinity for a collection of garbage you pulled out of the foundry doesn't make you worthy of the best gear. Romanticize your trip from MR0 to whatever you are now all you want, but that is exactly how you earned that rank. That's how we all earned our ranks. How do I know? Because beyond unlocking nodes (which contains only enough mastery for rank 2) that is the only way.

I'm all for the idea of giving players something to achieve. Exploring gameplay content to unlock top level gear? Making myself more powerful to earn the best weaponry? Count me the @$!# in!

Unfortunately, that's not Warframe. I don't know if it's ever gonna be Warframe. It would be nice, but that's not what the system is designed for.

Yeah, but what happens when someone tries to start a conversation about Progression? Nothing. It seems the community would rather whine about stuff than get to the root of the problem, the Progression threads I have seen lately have gotten a max of three pages of comments, and those three pages came much slower than this thread for example.

 

DE has the capability of creating a Progression system with Quests, Syndicates, Focus, etcetera, but they keep releasing the stuff without connections to other systems. There needs to be a system that brings in all of this new stuff and makes a coherent Progression that is not an endless grind. As you said, it may never come to Warframe, which would be very sad. Almost every issue with gear could be solved with some form of Progression, all of those "this is OP" and "this needs a nerf" topics could be put to rest. However,the community would rather just rant about that stuff than get to the root of the problem... whatever.

 

I have become a bit of a pessimist about the community if you cannot tell, I have seen too many high quality posts die to the hands of troll bait.

[Opellulo]

Let's talk about the elephant in the room: the game is free to play and its monetization isn't even that bad, if you wait for a lotus discount you can get 2k plat with less money than a night at the pub.

 

And this is fine!

 

The problem IMHO is that almost all the primes sells for 50 plat (5 or 10 for single pieces) and if you keep that cost ratio it means that 50 little cents can give you the best equipment the game can offer that otherwise would be obtainable with many hours of play. Ducats are a way to remove much of the excess primes and to let the prices increase; plus newer patches advertise more synergy between the various game mechanics; it's a sign that DE acknowledges this and we'll see where all this will be going.

[lostvirtue]

No need to be rude. He has a point. rank 0s shouldnt have rhino prime and boltor primr. Just give them a mastery rank requirement, simple solution

Ok just for the clarification. You can't unlock a boltor prime until MR2. Unless they bought the prime access pack for rhino.

[PainKiller6891]

Let's talk about the elephant in the room: the game is free to play and its monetization isn't even that bad, if you wait for a lotus discount you can get 2k plat with less money than a night at the pub.

And this is fine!

The problem IMHO is that almost all the primes sells for 50 plat (5 or 10 for single pieces) and if you keep that cost ratio it means that 50 little cents can give you the best equipment the game can offer that otherwise would be obtainable with many hours of play. Ducats are a way to remove much of the excess primes and to let the prices increase; plus newer patches advertise more synergy between the various game mechanics; it's a sign that DE acknowledges this and we'll see where all this will be going.

And for that I am happy. When I started playing I was very positive surprised how friendly the monetization was and still is. So I will stick to the situation we have now and keep waiting.

Edit.

So if the Focus System would give the player in general a possibility to evolve his character beyond the normal lvl 30 gear and Mods. One thing I could Imagine are personal mods wich only you can use and are not tradeable. These mods could be inserted in the frame to further enhance their powers. But if these would come I would support a lvling system independent from affinity. In game live challenges could be a way to gain tokens which could be used in exchange. Like killing 1000 corpus in one week. Next week you have to collect 20 caches or data logs. I would like that.

Edited February 12, 2015 by PainKiller6891

[P0int.Zer0]

Let's talk about the elephant in the room: the game is free to play and its monetization isn't even that bad, if you wait for a lotus discount you can get 2k plat with less money than a night at the pub.

 

And this is fine!

 

The problem IMHO is that almost all the primes sells for 50 plat (5 or 10 for single pieces) and if you keep that cost ratio it means that 50 little cents can give you the best equipment the game can offer that otherwise would be obtainable with many hours of play. Ducats are a way to remove much of the excess primes and to let the prices increase; plus newer patches advertise more synergy between the various game mechanics; it's a sign that DE acknowledges this and we'll see where all this will be going.

Also it´s kinda strange that you can buy the prime stuff with less plat in the trade cahnnel than the normal versions of the frames in the shop.

300 plat (ok -40 for slot and potato) for frost? Let´s get Frost Prime first for less.

[mejulio]

Bit of a silly way of looking at it, this isn't about individuals, rather it's about the community which makes it everyone's business, if some members of the community feel that new players have access to high tier weapons far too early then they have the right to vocalise these opinions. 

 

Lore friendly and would help solve this problem. Perhaps add in a quest as well introducing players to the void.

I like the idea of adding a quest to introduce players to the void.

 

Members have a right to voice their opinions and community is compromised of individuals not the other way but there are some players that don't feel their are part of a community. I feel I am part of a community but not in the beginning. So there are those that don't like to be lumped in with the rest. I am not saying that I am one of those because I have met some really cool people here.

Edited February 12, 2015 by mejulio