My Opinion On De's Work-In-Progress Raids So Far

[Eyeless]

This is likely going to be the usual case: 

 

DE shows off new frame/weapon/mission concept on a devstream or asks for feedback in the forums by telling players what [X] is currently like. 

 

Players give loads of great and intuitive feedback that is both doable and gives [X] things it was missing or needed changed because it simply wasn't good in the first place. 

 

Players plead with DE that the things that aren't good about the idea really aren't a good idea and provides multiple ways to improve this. 

 

Update hits with Frame/Weapon/Mission type, hype is real, aaaand- 

 

 

[X] hasn't been changed at all, everything nobody wanted to see in [X] because it was a poor choice is there, and it's months before it's revisited and given anything good. 

 

Oh, and there's also a brand new resource you need to get so you can wait 10+ hours to get one key for the new shiny mission no one's going to want to play anymore after two weeks and the void tables will be destroyed twice over. 

[Davoodoo]

1) level 80 are not bullet sponges. (+ if those are grineer you just use 4 CP for the win.)

2) i can't understand all this hype - warframe is a nice game to play on low level, mid level. high level of the warframe is not balanced at all. you either steamroll mobs or mobs steamroll you by a oneshot. and level 80 mobs can very well one-threeshot you.

3) in the warframe when you face highlevel enemies you don't tank and you don't heal.

 

you don't tank because hp, shields and armor are meaningless simply because of damage output of the mobs. even let say 75% damage reduction by link power is useless.

for the same reason you don't heal - because you or your teammates will die anyway. and even if you spamm blessing like there is no tomorrow, you and your teammates will die.

so in order to play against highlevel enemies - you must not take damage. at all. which leaves us with very little choice of what frames to use.

best setup for the raid? x4 Loki x4 Limbo = for the win.

 

Again, somebody told  me - that only 00.01% of the player base actually playing after 1h of T4Survival. And this is why - there is no reason to balance the game or make changes for these 00.01% of the player base. However - we will have a game mode that already making us play on level of T4S past 1h mark. So we could all see how unbalanced warframe is at that level. So unless U16 will come with some changes in damage system - i call this entire 'raid' idea as farce.

 

And i am waiting for capture the cephalon. Because if DE can't deliver pve experience, i really hope they can manage with pvp.

I agree with everything, but that 00.01% part, most of community doesnt play it since theres no reason to do so, its much easier to just run 20 or 40 mins and then start another key while end result is same.

[LeshJaeThiHah]

it since theres no reason to do so

we have weekly ladders are we not? like survival, defense or killcount or excavation?

but ah...  here comes another huge flaw of this game but it's not related to OP.

[piekiller33]

I don't frequently speak up in forum posts, but when I heard the word "raid" brought up in Warfarm, I was less then excited, an 8 man group of Tenno doesn't sound like a terribly great idea right now, with the way DE is attempting to implement it

 

elaborating on the point, when you have so many people working together, its not because the adversary being fought is difficult to take down in theory, its the objective that needs completing is simply impossible with a small group or lone individual.

 

Tenno frequently work in cells to capture or destroy certain objectives with greater ease, however I have seen many creative Tenno accomplish these missions on their own by virtue of how the mission is laid out, Why do raids need more then one very well equipped Tenno?

 

Simply put, the same reason Endless defense/intercept missions are impossible. After a certain point, these mission types, due to how they are, simply become overwhelming, if not impossible. Combined with an absurdly large number of powerful "support" units that both render a Tenno impotent and highly vunerable, all these factors together create an impossible weight for a lone Tenno to accomplish.

 

"Raids" as a concept were developed as an "end game" system, designed to challenge a group of individuals to work together to accomplish a challenging but rewarding goal, as a means of maintaining relevance in a system that has been exhausted by veteran players.

Instead, from what I've heard AND seen, these raids are just extra hard, high end, multi stage missions, with a dash of fake puzzle put in, regardless of what the rewards could POSSIBLY be, Im not going to participate, if this is what I have to look forward to, to be frank.

 

Instead of making the "Raid" just an 80+ level mission, which I can tell you right now, isn't going to fly with anyone not rocking a HIGHLY survivable build, multiple and simultaneous objectives should be completed at the same time with moderate level enemies applying appropriate pressure to each objective.

 

for example:

-Main gate needs to have 4 points captured and locked down to open

-Intelligence transmitters are sending detailed reports of Tenno activity to local defense populace, these must be silenced

-A central command needs to be severed, keeping the current defense force confuse/demoralized or otherwise crippled

 

these are just a few examples of what can be implemented in these raids in order to make the necessity of bringing 8 people along justifiable, enemies will mount a significant challenge initiating the raid, but the Tenno's legendary finesse and speed will grant them an advantage against a growing force of eventually unconquerable foes, if the Tenno do not appropriately deal with them.

 

Adding main objectives, with short window-of-opportunity side objectives that must be completed with haste AND skill, will challenge the group, without resorting to fake difficulty or level 80+ enemies

 

An uber-boss isn't required and the level of cooperation becomes more instinctual, the 8 man Cell can split into strike teams, to take objectives quickly before the enemy catches on to the Tenno's activities, a sense of fulfilment can be achieved for each player doing their job, and vetran players will already be familiar enough with conventional tactics that they can then use to assist in these lesser objectives.

 

These raids brought me equal terror and hope, DE has a chance to try a brand new dynamic, often used in other MMO's, with massive player feedback, and the ability to learn from past mistakes. I hope they can do this.

 

(side note, I mentioned the word "endgame", I would like to point out that I do not believe this exists, and I will never engage in an debate as such)

[(PSN)Lord_Gremlin]

Puzzle was terribly designed. You'd think enemies won't be endless but making a mistake will cause enemies to spawn. And how it works with fewer people anyway? It shouldn't reset. Look puzzles in warframe should be kept simple. It's basically Dynasty Warriors space ninja edition.

[CY13ERPUNK]

+1 OP

[Davoodoo]

we have weekly ladders are we not? like survival, defense or killcount or excavation?

but ah...  here comes another huge flaw of this game but it's not related to OP.

Epeen elitists consist for how much?? 0.01% of whole community?? guess why only so small amount of ppl do this.

[Glitchesarecool]

-snip-

 

I actually really like the idea of one cell of Tenno fighting on a main objective, while another fights to reduce the power of the opposing force attacking the main objective. Every time the second cell completes something, like destroying a command post, some debuff gets applied to the forces striking at the main objective. Otherwise the forces become stronger and stronger over time, as they become more organized and adapted to the group on the main objective.

 

It would also be interesting if there were opportunities for Tenno to swap positions between cells if one group/member was getting tired or low on resources. 

[Echowing]

The level 80 enemies shouldn't be the main focus here, the mechanics should.  The puzzle, while simple, required coordination and working as a team to compete.  I'm cautiously optimistic that the raid will turn out well, but we will see.

[LeshJaeThiHah]

Epeen elitists consist for how much?? 0.01% of whole community?? guess why only so small amount of ppl do this.

because epeen elitists are not target audience?

 

anyway. i see no reason to make a game mode that will put entire player base in the same conditions as epeen elitists.

Edited February 23, 2015 by LeshJaeThiHah

[aavvdkdk]

I think it's quite telling that the whole twitch chat ended up talking about Limbo (Loki/Rhino). With the amount of knockdowns and pulls enemies have these frames are going to be a must. I don't think I'm able to judge the raids fully yet, but so far they seem just like what I had expected. More hordemodes, more powercreep, and more action focused. There is a reason stealth has been talked about for 2 years now. 

[ViolettaFoxx]

I agree, I'm fairly disappointed too hearing about this. When I think of a Raid I think of small to medium groups of non-respawning enemies that are difficult and unique, yes high in health/shield/armor/damage but not just with a crazy level increase. But a big change to their AI, how they function and move around the map. Even new abilities and S#&$ they do; i.e. not just shoot at you and throw a nade here and there.

 

I think of puzzles in between these groups and sometimes during.

 

And finally. The 'effin raid boss. Epic, hard, with counter-able/dodge-able attacks that can murder you and your team if you don't handle it properly, react, or know what to do. 

 

And after that, a big hefty reward. Unique mods, weapons, and gear with huge credit pack or packs, and fusion core packs. Not just one or the other. Needs all of this for each run.

 

Is this too MMO?

[Casval_Rouge]

All I've seen from the "raid" is just assassination but with 8 players and high level.  But I'll be honest, that's what I was expecting anyways.  By that I mean I have really low expectations when it comes to new content to be good.  It takes them so long to even attempt to polish it or add anything to it.  Anyone remember Archwing?  What happened to that?

[Davoodoo]

The level 80 enemies shouldn't be the main focus here, the mechanics should.  The puzzle, while simple, required coordination and working as a team to compete.  I'm cautiously optimistic that the raid will turn out well, but we will see.

Like i already mentioned, thats most basic form of teamwork, everyone knowing what encounter requires of them and doing it.

 

But that still wont change the fact that enemies even 80lvl are easy for guys with maxed gear, their difficulty is cheap, with imbalanced dmg output and they offer no additional challenge despite their high lvl.

 

It can still be easily facerolled by loki spamming max range augmented disarm, you can still block off enemies with vauban with augment, even without augment nyx and nekros do same with chaos and shadows, nothing was done to introduce challenge into game.

 

 

It was meant to be gamechanger while in reality its glorified mix of few mission types with puzzles and 80lvl enemies.

Exchange puzzles for objective like oxy, excavators or pod and we were doing that for past 2 years.

 

Not only that but rewards while worthwhile are somewhat touchy subject due to again mixing cosmetic items with stat boosts.

There are concerns about pay2win and sacrificing aesthetic appeal for stat boost.

 

 

Anyone remember Archwing?  What happened to that?

It was forgotten in favor of raids, before that there were kubrows, melee 2.0, derelicts and voids.

Edited February 23, 2015 by Davoodoo

[PencilManners]

Nothing I saw in that raid looked appealing to me, the puzzle in particular just looked like a nightmare for PUG's, I hope DE does more with the 8 player squad than just increasing numbers.

 

Something like splitting the group into 2 squads, one inside a ship and the other in archwings outside it. Each group can interact with the environment to benefit the other group.

 

i.e. the land group could shut down the ships cannons or even turn them against the enemies, direct the ship into an asteroid field to give the archwings more cover while the archwings can destroy life support, punch holes into the ship where all enemies within the breached room die and reduce enemy spawns inside the ship by destroying advancing drop ships.

[Zaniux]

Have to agree with you OP.

I was expecting something new, gamechanger, improved AI, new enemie types and tilesets.

Sadly what we saw seems to be another "reutilization" of what we have (enemies and tileset rooms) with a few exceptions (puzzle rooms). Let's hope that the stuff we haven´t seen introduce challenging and refreshing mechanics/enemies/tilesets.

 

The artificial difficulty introduced with lvl 80 enemies is a cheap strategy, and this makes me think that DE is victim of releasing content "relatively" fast.

The community needs new content, especially veterans, but it seems that in order to keep up with the community DE needs to reuse old content. The time required to introduce new and innovative stuff seems to be huge and that's why we see stuff that has been used forever (a.k.a enemies, AI, tilesets).

Edited February 23, 2015 by Zaniux

[Seanjuju]

If there aren't any enemies with abilities, prosecutor mechanics, and Lt Kril mechanics. It's not ready.

If there aren't any additional penalties for failure. Send it back.

If there aren't any pack/group-based enemies or bosses. Send it back.

If enemies are spawning from areas that have been cleared. Send it back.

If there aren't any enemy fortifications. Send it back,

If the rewards are all novelties. Scrap it.

[Caobie]

what we saw in the devstream was like a snippet...why are so many people here talking like its out?(ie phrasing like 'it is bad' vs 'it looks bad') we cannot judge based on what we've seen yet. however i will agree that just giving bullet sponge enemies to a mission with mixed objectives wasnt what i was expecting...but i remain, as someone said earlier, cautiously optimistic.

[(PSN)VariantX7]

I dont mind the puzzle that was demonstrated, what bothers me is that horde of enemies that show up are 80+, which just encourages people to bring in frames that specialize in CC to avoid getting downed while players scramble to work out a solution to a puzzle leaving other frames and such who aren't good at that as poor choices for the content . There should be specialized  and tougher enemy units, hazards and traps, as well as other units that buff up your lvl 40-50 mobs instead. The game Is supposedly not balanced past 50 anyway. Also, communicate the consequences of failure better. There was nothing in that room that would indicate that players would die if they screwed up the puzzle.

[Marthrym]

So... More unfair, cheap and punishing content. Yay.

lvl 80 enemies? Yay. Valkyrs, Lokis and Limbos FTW, since complete damage mitigation is the only thing viable with the stupidely broken scaling DE seem hellbent on keeping at all costs, even if it sinks their game. I don't get it. I really don't.

Puzzles requiring teamwork/coordination? Great! Puzzles with MOAR punishing and cheap mechanics, whith not 4 but 8 players requiring high level of coordination to avoid insta-death by zapping, in a game where teams of randoms are Law? Not so great.

 

Nice to see player feedback isn't completely ignored, once again... Oh wait.

 

Sarcasm aside, I am not all that much disappointed, because I saw it coming (we all did). But man, why is it so hard to make the devs understand piling up numbers and using a broken crutch as "endgame" is NOT a great idea? *sigh*

Edited February 25, 2015 by Marthrym

[Aizeol]

what we saw in the devstream was like a snippet...why are so many people here talking like its out?(ie phrasing like 'it is bad' vs 'it looks bad') we cannot judge based on what we've seen yet. however i will agree that just giving bullet sponge enemies to a mission with mixed objectives wasnt what i was expecting...but i remain, as someone said earlier, cautiously optimistic.

 

We are here to provide feedback.  It seems that there is a section of the community that feels that what was shown on the Devstream was not adequate, and they are letting the developers know this while the product is still being developed.  This gives the team time to "correct" or change aspects of the design to be more appealing.

 

 

Why is it that when there are serious issues being brought up in the Feedback sections, there are always someone who says "it isn't finished" or "it's in beta"?

 

WE KNOW!!  That's why we are even providing feedback in the first place.  We aren't trying to spit in DE's face; we are letting DE know how we feel about the product they are selling to us.  It is beneficial to both parties if the lines of communication are strong and direct.

[Liminal]

Second of all: The puzzles. I expected something along the lines of Payday 2. If you ever played Payday 2's BIG OIL mission, you know exactly the kind of puzzles I expected. (Maybe that's a bit too much, but I love that puzzle.) 

Then you get a bunch of morons that grab all the engines and everyone dies :P (but yes, I know what you mean)

[Caobie]

We are here to provide feedback.  It seems that there is a section of the community that feels that what was shown on the Devstream was not adequate, and they are letting the developers know this while the product is still being developed.  This gives the team time to "correct" or change aspects of the design to be more appealing.

 

 

Why is it that when there are serious issues being brought up in the Feedback sections, there are always someone who says "it isn't finished" or "it's in beta"?

 

WE KNOW!!  That's why we are even providing feedback in the first place.  We aren't trying to spit in DE's face; we are letting DE know how we feel about the product they are selling to us.  It is beneficial to both parties if the lines of communication are strong and direct.

i agree that the feedback being given here is important and i realize that saying 'it isnt finished' is something everyone knows. i was just commenting on the number of people who spoke as though the content was already available to the public. we are not in a state to say something is bad just that what we've see so far doesnt look good and heres why and then hope DE listens for real.

 

As for actually giving feedback, well im not one to judge before i get my hands on something but from what ive seen so far they need to work on puzzle....uhh...word....conveyance? they need to work on a way to show the punishment at least once without nukeing the whole party or rather have a way to tell us itll nuke the whole party if we screw up....and work on enemies.

Edited February 25, 2015 by Caobie

[LeshJaeThiHah]

because we know what to expect from high  level enemies Caobie.

 

to put it simple at some point it hardly matters for a player will he face level 100 mob or level 1000 mob. Both of these are capable of killing a player by a one shot. Given that their hp pool is also secondary argument, because we have weapons capable of leveling cities, overall... situation with high level content leaves us not that of much options with what to play it.

 

And what we have is:

1) armor scaling for grineer and corrupted. (which can be countered by four Corrosive projection auras, which leaves little option for customization of the frames and entire party.) *remark - high level corpus? you gotta love high level oxium drone brother.\

 

2) health pool. (which we counter by high tier weapons and mods. which again in  the case of the weapons leaves us with litttle choice what to use, and in the case of mods we should use all these HCal mods which again leaves no customization options at all. You wanna run high level content with your Braton with large magazines and faster reload? no enjoy your all damage Dread etc.)

 

3) damage output of the mobs. (the only way to counter it, is to use a frames that would deny these mobs any possibility to fire at the group. Which means that 85% of the frames become obsolete if you play high level content. You wanna run your oberon against level 80 mob? not a chance friend - you should pick loki. Because loki can actually do some good for the team.)

*damage output of the mobs denies all kind of tanking and healing in the game.

 

So as you can see (not only in this post but through entire topic) warframe on the high level is very unbalanced game with very little choices of how to play this "high level" content. I want to remind you that we have an achievement for 20 waves of defense and we don't have an achievement for 100. And there is a reason for that. Game is not designed for such gameplay. Only very few players would play a game on such a level, when mob has 4 digits on his level.

 

But Raids will force us, to experience all of that as a part of actual content for the game. And this is why, we have such a negative reaction on this.

 

As i mentioned before, unless U16 will be deployed with massive game mechanics redo, this raid thing is gonna be a farce. However there is almost zero reasons to redo game mechanics, because on low and medium level Warframe is amazing.

Edited February 27, 2015 by LeshJaeThiHah

[Davoodoo]

what we saw in the devstream was like a snippet...why are so many people here talking like its out?(ie phrasing like 'it is bad' vs 'it looks bad') we cannot judge based on what we've seen yet. however i will agree that just giving bullet sponge enemies to a mission with mixed objectives wasnt what i was expecting...but i remain, as someone said earlier, cautiously optimistic.

Ppl reaction is like that for 1 simple reason, if we dont provide any feedback it will actually come out like that and thats pretty simple logic, why would a dev put some work to it if ppl are content with that work in progress version.