This Was Very Poorly Designed Around Players With Arsenal Full Of Mods And Proves That Raids Consisting Of Lvl80 Enemies Isnt A Good Idea.

[marelooke]

First the $&*&*#(%& time-based fomorian event tuned for no-lifers (ones without families to celebrate holidays with at least), then the stupid stealth quest (with the un-fun "lose one codex and fail"-mechanic) and now this? If DE is trying to tell me to sod off back to good old Unreal Tournament for my "mindless shoot things in the face"-fix then I guess that is what I'll have to do if they keep this up. It'll at least end me with more intelligent adversaries as well as allies.

Edited March 1, 2015 by marelooke

[Davoodoo]

As many have already said, comparing Phoenix Intercept Escalation to Raids is a disingenuous comparison for a few reasons:

 

1. Raids have 8 players instead of 4, which allows for a larger variety of Warframes, weapons and auras to come into play. The larger number of Aura mods especially allows for some significant team buffing that you can't simply do with Escalation.

2. Raids do not have conclave and weapon limits. The reason Escalation was so hard was because you can only bring a Heavy Blade weapon while keeping under the 400 conclave limit, which means having to remove some mods and equipment to even perform the mission, thus players have to rely solely on Warframe powers to provide the bulk of their damage and CC against level 100 enemies. On the other hands, Raids don't have such limitations, so you can bring your fully modded Boltor Primes, Synoid Gammacors and other weapons to deal maximum damage against enemies.

3. Raids have a lower starting enemy level of 80, meaning that we'll be facing much weaker enemies than in Escalation.

 

I also disagree about Escalation limiting Warframe choices - let me ask who here honestly thought that Warframes like Limbo and Banshee were made for "high level content" before this alert? Those are two Warframes you honestly don't see many people bring in "high level content" in exchange for stuff like Loki and Nyx. And yet Escalation that featured level 100 enemies - a range you don't see in normal gameplay - saw two underutilized Warframes *shine*.

1. They do, which means we can bring even more lokis trinitys limbo into play and if there is some place left yeah we can carry some frost ember or volt, np.

2. 400cc isnt limit, i need to remove exactly 2 weapons and sentinel. I can still bring frame with 8 mods and 1 weapon with 8 mods. All that i truly needed though is 200cc, enough to make a build that keeps enemies disabled, training dummies which cant retaliate wont be a problem no matter what weapon and sentinel you have.

3. lvl 45 enemies have enough dmg to drop you under 1second if you dont kill or disable them, by time of 65 all infested, heavy units of both factions, seekers and detron crewmen have enough dmg to oneshot you, by 80lvl you can add ballistas and lanka troops to that list. Tank wont work, dmg based abilities will be tickle at best, staying in cover is impossible with sheer amount of enemies and their aoe.

 

Everyone who actually paid attention. Permament invicibility?? who thought that it would be op?? probably everyone who worked to nerf rhino and frost in the past, personally im tired of even trying to balance things, its a pain in the ! with months of arguing then convincing ppl that its good that they wont be able to kill lvl 150 enemies on endless when this is nerfed, then thousand other ppl need to agree on that then finally maybe de will do proper balance around lvls they had in game.

It simply takes longer to balance single frame and nerf 1 single op ability than it takes de to release 3 frames.

Edited March 1, 2015 by Davoodoo

[Kasarian]

First the $&*&*#(%& time-based fomorian event tuned for no-lifers (ones without families to celebrate holidays with at least), then the stupid stealth quest (with the un-fun "lose one codex and fail"-mechanic) and now this? If DE is trying to tell me to sod off back to good old Unreal Tournament for my "mindless shoot things in the face"-fix then I guess that is what I'll have to do if they keep this up. It'll at least end me with more intelligent adversaries as well as allies.

 

Fomorians weren't bad, it was the system around them that made the event fall apart, from too short time (considering that holidays will have smaller amount of players to actively participate/no-life) and them having too much health to in-mission spawn system that in 99% killed people and time consuming resource that wasn't really mined to much due to it being utterly useless (i mean who would think that "I better stockpile Cryotic, maybe ill need it in the future", not too many people). Those are the reason event was crappy. That and Strata Relay.

 

The "stupid stealth quest" is actually good and the only reason for you to hate it is that you're just not good enough in stealth, get better, practice and repeat. Only thing I could think being bad about this quest is Maroo NPC being as much cliché as the word itself.

 

And Tac alert? It wasn't simply for everyone.

[Marthrym]

We finally get something good and people bash on it. 

 

This community truely is going to hell.

So... Because YOU enjoyed this thing, everyone who didn't (so the overwhelming majority) is proof that this community "is going to hell". Seems legit.

I'd facepalm but it wouldn't be even remotely close to what I felt when I read this...

 

Let's do it your way, with the other point of view, see if you like it :

 

We got something that proved how broken the game is when the devs rely on the broken crutch that is scaling instead of coming up with ACTUAL challenge, and the result was boring as hell and tedious at best and some people find it "good" despite how obviously bad it is.

 

This community truely is going to hell.

 

So much for respect of other people's opinions. *sigh*

 

 

Yes, it will add challenge. It will go from "I was Loki and invisible and never got touched; raid too easy DE" to "I was Ember and had no way of defending myself in open space and no way of surviving when not. I burned all my revives and used accelerant 150+ times because that stun was the only thing keeping me alive." It will go from "I used a rep farm method. We stacked 5 buffs onto the Excalibur into our party. I don't know what faction we were fighting because I never saw an enemy from it." to "We had Rhino as a tank, Oberon to heal, Mesa for damage, and Nekros for support. Rhino couldn't tank and died. Mesa couldn't sit still and died. Oberon's healing didn't matter because two shots killed. He kind of ran around for a while and died. The Nekros had no chance of course." It will go from "Boltor Prime made it look easy." to "Melee is worthless." It swings between extremes of ease and tedium, or impossibility and frustration.

Tactical alerts are a good time for specific team setups to be the norm. But excluding a large portion of content from raids--endgame--is just bad design.

Can we put this post in BOLD, CAPS, UNDERLINED letters? so that all the "I don't get why people are unhappy with this marvel of a TA" get another chance to understand why so many players are not only &!$$ed, but also WORRIED? Because it resumes pretty well the problem. Thank you fellow Tenno.

Edited March 1, 2015 by Marthrym

[bosstnt]

this isnt how raids are going to be this was mostly for fun. I used every frame to see how they would cope. Was interesting to say the least.

[Tigercloud]

Yes, it will add challenge. It will go from "I was Loki and invisible and never got touched; raid too easy DE" to "I was Ember and had no way of defending myself in open space and no way of surviving when not. I burned all my revives and used accelerant 150+ times because that stun was the only thing keeping me alive." It will go from "I used a rep farm method. We stacked 5 buffs onto the Excalibur into our party. I don't know what faction we were fighting because I never saw an enemy from it." to "We had Rhino as a tank, Oberon to heal, Mesa for damage, and Nekros for support. Rhino couldn't tank and died. Mesa couldn't sit still and died. Oberon's healing didn't matter because two shots killed. He kind of ran around for a while and died. The Nekros had no chance of course." It will go from "Boltor Prime made it look easy." to "Melee is worthless." It swings between extremes of ease and tedium, or impossibility and frustration.

Tactical alerts are a good time for specific team setups to be the norm. But excluding a large portion of content from raids--endgame--is just bad design.

 

Alright. I'm bad at posts. I put them in the wrong place, name them the wrong title, and don't make my point clear. Maybe I can do that now? Possibly?

 

This is Warframe's BIGGEST problem.

 

There are combinations of abilities which make it so the enemy can't do anything. Period.

 

When the game is so tough that the enemies one shot you, you HAVE to use this combination of abilities, so that the enemy can't do anything. Period.

 

Once this happens, you have scenarios where you have Loki with Disarm and Decoy and Hydroid trapping 1000s of Grineer in a puddle, whereupon you then wait through the entire Interception round without fighting. At all.

 

THIS. IS. WRONG. YOU DON'T MAKE A FIGHTING GAME WHERE NOBODY FIGHTS, OR AT LEAST NOBODY FIGHTS BACK.

 

I know nobody will ever agree on something 100%, but can we get the majority saying that this is *bad*? That this should not be in the game? The only way I can see where someone would enjoy beating on enemies that can't fight back, is if you get an adrenaline rush/pleasure probe from being able to kill enemies that can't fight back, while being aware that if they *were* able to fight back, you would die, instantly. I guess it's like a reward mechanism, like cheese in a hamster wheel or something. That's fine. You can go ruin another game. Get the hell out of my Warframe.

 

Any time a combination of abilities is found which prevents enemies from fighting back, gameplay elements should be introduced which breaks that combination. This should be Warframe's guiding principle #1. The second guiding principle is no enemy should so powerful that they can kill you in one shot without the possibility of that shot being avoided. Because that removes agency, and then at that point, you *need* a combination of abilities which prevents enemies from fighting back. This is the vicious circle THAT MUST BE BROKEN.

[StellaPotato]

so i saw alot of the same frames going in, i have now beaten this many times,

its not about power at all.

its about being smarter then the enemies we face

 

i also fell in love with the alert as my dear first prime finally gets some love in mission

 

mag prime.

 

godlike in this.

 

the go team seems to be, loki loki, vauben, excal, and stuff like that's,

 

mag made this easy as hell.

 

limbo was also useful.

 

nyx as well

 

ive even done this with ember

and seen zephyr shine in this.

 

ive seen almost every frame,

 

so its do able by all people

its not really the gear or setup that's matters as much as teamwork

tenno working together to beat the hordes and fight the odds

 

which by the way

 

IS KINDA THE WHOLE POINT OF BEING TENNO, BADASS SPACE NINJA

 

anyway,

 

god ive fallen in love with this.

i see this as test,

and alot of data coming back, for raids and not just raids

but more down the road

 

higher levels means nothing,

we need smarter ai or enemies that maybe aren't tough but add something to the fight

ie

infested swarms just blind you so well

their not a threat alone,

but in horde they become huge pain

same with all infested 

alone their nothing

but together in that moment of conflict. we tenno as 4 at most must use our gears, our powers, and mostly, our brains, communicate

and out play our enemy even when they have bigger and better hand.

 

this is what this game needs to evolve too

odds stacked against, it seems hopeless

and yet, we are tenno

we don't need the odds in our favor

 

we can play any hand dealt, out wit and outclass out enemies and walk away.

their numbers endless but a tenno is worth millions of them

 

so smarter ai,

more enemies that add things that do so much kill us as slow us, stun us, take away some visibility,

small and mild effects,

enemies that together in their hordes are a threat,

objective that take coordination,

 

basically it gets summed up like this

 

WHEN THIS GAME FORCES US TO ACTUALLY COMMUNICATE,

TEST OUR THEORIES OF HOW TO BEAT IT, FAIL, TRIAL AND ERROR AND DO IT AGAIN AND AGAIN

TILL WE FINALLY OUT PLAY THE ODDS

 

THAT IS NEVER A BAD THING.

[Tigercloud]

WHEN THIS GAME FORCES US TO ACTUALLY COMMUNICATE,

TEST OUR THEORIES OF HOW TO BEAT IT, FAIL, TRIAL AND ERROR AND DO IT AGAIN AND AGAIN

TILL WE FINALLY OUT PLAY THE ODDS

 

THAT IS NEVER A BAD THING.

 

Does "Out play" mean using all our abilities in situations where the enemy is always able to damage us, in a coordinated fashion, with teamwork, or does "Out play" mean using one ability from each Warframe on the team where, in a specific combination, it prevents all the enemies, everywhere, from ever being able to fire a shot?

 

If it's the former I agree with you completely.

 

If it's the latter. Wut.

Edited March 1, 2015 by Jiufengbao

[_FrostPrime_]

What do you mean by finally and good.

 

"finally" is out there since u7 and its objective fact.

"good" is outright making half of frames useless in a game when dev speaks about freedom of choice and removing meta, these are also objective facts.

 

You're clearly living in the past and choosing to do so on purpose. You won't ever see the light until you step out from under the shade of the bridge you're sitting under man... all it takes is that first step. Not hard. But it's a decision you must make for yourself.

 

 

Get the joke? Sooner or later I'm going to find an "I quit cause x reasons" post . And I'm going to point out that nobody cares. This is objective fact. Nobody cares about anybody elses opinion but their own.

[Rakshal]

...its not about power at all.

Well that is lol worthy.

[elspinaczio]

Loki full range radial disarm + slow Nova+ Vauban spamming bastille+ chaos Nyx - a recipee for success (and some brains). You actually don't need prime frame or fully exped weapon - I had Scindo prime without potato, with 3 mods on it (so basically dmg was very, very poor), but I used good build on my Loki, which doesn't require any top tier maxed mind blowing mods, plus energy regen from syndicate+ syndicate specters to finish+good team, so even if you suck, you can always rely on other players.

[Davoodoo]

You're clearly living in the past and choosing to do so on purpose. You won't ever see the light until you step out from under the shade of the bridge you're sitting under man... all it takes is that first step. Not hard. But it's a decision you must make for yourself.

 

 

Get the joke? Sooner or later I'm going to find an "I quit cause x reasons" post . And I'm going to point out that nobody cares. This is objective fact. Nobody cares about anybody elses opinion but their own.

I guess you must be right, especially that you have no knowledge of the past you are talking about.

 

You have less experience with the game, less knowledge about its problems, less time spent on providing feedback.

 

In short youre clueless person trying to educate those who preceded you in process of learning.

 

 

I really didnt want to use that argument simply because i believe every opinion is important even if i dont agree with it but personal assault calls for it.

Edited March 1, 2015 by Davoodoo

[_FrostPrime_]

Already sitting back with some popcorn m8. Keep mentioning u7 over and over. That will help.

 

*insert chewing sounds here*

[Katinka]

Forgive me if someone has already pointed this out, I skipped a few pages and it didn't look like the conversation had changed so didn't bother going back...

 

You do realise that the third part wasn't really 'designed' right?  There was a bug in part 2 that meant the enemies were sometimes much higher level than they were supposed to be.  De fixed the bug but some people said they had actually enjoyed it so DE decided to throw in a third level that reinstated the accidental level.  At least, that's what I got from the red text and staff posts on here.  I've even heard that the Sigil will be available in another way later, although that was second hand information.

 

If you don't like it, don't do it.  It was just a bit of fun thrown in for the people who said it would be fun.  I'm sure Raids will have much better balance and just not be one-hit-kill enemies spawning 10m away from us by the dozen while we are forced to stand in a circle with little to no cover.

[TehTeaKing]

+1 for The Dks/Warframe crossover (dunno if it's yours or not)

 

On topic though, I had quite a negative view of this alert myself until just a few moments ago when I completed it. Just gonna try clear up a few criticisms I've seen (not just here but elsewhere too) that I'm sure others have and will already say.

-"It isn't about skill, just ability spam"

I agree, for the most part. This is an interception mission, where the goal is to capture all of the points, and hold them while making sure the enemy doesn't do the exact same. Stopping the enemy from capturing the points is key here, and what are you going to do that with? A sword? You don't need skill, just some abilities which allow you to deter the enemy from being able to cap points (i.e. Bastille / slow molecular prime).

 

-"The restrictions are too great" / "Enemies are overpowered"

Somewhat linked to the above point. This alert is meant to be hard, it's meant to be a challenge. In most other game modes it's easy for one to just go into matchmaking and do a mission easy, even at high level. This tactical alert, with its restrictions and such, makes it so that the player has to put some tactics into completing it. It makes the player think about what kind of strategy they need to employ (even if it is sitting back disabling your enemies with abilities while waiting for points to stack up), as well as making the player seek help from others essentially bringing the community together somewhat (I'm sure it has done that on the forums with the divide between the people who disapprove and those who see the point behind the event).

 

-"Only members of large clans/alliances and veteran players can do this"

You don't need to be a member of a large scale clan, or a veteran player to be able to do this alert, just a bit of organisation. Set your game privacy to 'invite only', and look in recruiting for select frames that will allow you to complete the mission with ease. Sure being part of a clan and such will help you find players, but the recruiting tab is there for a reason.

 

-"This alert renders a majority of the frames obsolete"

I agree, but that's simply the nature of the mission. Certain frames just aren't suited for this kind of mission (at least it's harder to accomplish the mission with them). You may not have one of the frames more suited to the mission but even so, with a bit of searching around, you should be able to find a squad with players who have the frames 'necessary'. Even if you don't have a frame that's great at this mission and/or don't manage to complete the mission, it's not as if the reward is something necessary (by which I mean there's no advantage to be had for players who have it over those who don't).

TLDR(the bits in bold):

-Some frames are just better for this.

    -(i.e. Loki for Disarm / slow Nova for Molecular Prime / Vauban for Bastille/Vortex)

-Anyone can do this.

    -Don't have to be a member of a clan or veteran player. (Try the Recruiting tab.)

    -If you don't have the "right" frame you can still find a squad with the "right" frames.

-It's meant to be a challenge.

    -You're not meant to simply hack and slash your way through the enemy, it's a tactical alert.

    -The restrictions aren't op. It's tactical, you're meant to find a way to cheese it such as incapacitating the enemies.

-Have fun!

   -Just enjoy it, if you keep dying and use all your revives so what? The reward won't improve your

     gameplay or make you stronger, it's aesthetics (nothing important, but cool to have nonetheless).

 

Had a Vauban, Loki, Nyx, and Nova when I completed it. They work well together to make this a piece of cake, it's what I'd recommend for completing this anyway. There may be better ways but at least it's something to try.

Also, just a point to the title:

   -You don't need an arsenal full of mods, they won't help anyway due to the conclave restriction.

Edited March 1, 2015 by TehTeaKing

[_FrostPrime_]

Forgive me if someone has already pointed this out, I skipped a few pages and it didn't look like the conversation had changed so didn't bother going back...

 

You do realise that the third part wasn't really 'designed' right?  There was a bug in part 2 that meant the enemies were sometimes much higher level than they were supposed to be.  De fixed the bug but some people said they had actually enjoyed it so DE decided to throw in a third level that reinstated the accidental level.  At least, that's what I got from the red text and staff posts on here.  I've even heard that the Sigil will be available in another way later, although that was second hand information.

 

If you don't like it, don't do it.  It was just a bit of fun thrown in for the people who said it would be fun.  I'm sure Raids will have much better balance and just not be one-hit-kill enemies spawning 10m away from us by the dozen while we are forced to stand in a circle with little to no cover.

 

It's like talking to a brick wall... or a Demopan. No matter how annoying it is nothing will get through to them. NOTHING.

[Davoodoo]

Forgive me if someone has already pointed this out, I skipped a few pages and it didn't look like the conversation had changed so didn't bother going back...

 

You do realise that the third part wasn't really 'designed' right?  There was a bug in part 2 that meant the enemies were sometimes much higher level than they were supposed to be.  De fixed the bug but some people said they had actually enjoyed it so DE decided to throw in a third level that reinstated the accidental level.  At least, that's what I got from the red text and staff posts on here.  I've even heard that the Sigil will be available in another way later, although that was second hand information.

 

If you don't like it, don't do it.  It was just a bit of fun thrown in for the people who said it would be fun.  I'm sure Raids will have much better balance and just not be one-hit-kill enemies spawning 10m away from us by the dozen while we are forced to stand in a circle with little to no cover.

Endless also wasnt 'designed', it was just higher lvled enemies thrown in if someone wants to try enemies which arent balanced.

 

Thats the problem, looking at work in progress version and overall aproach to challenge since warframe launch, difficulty for raids wont be 'designed' either, unless something will change in which case it means that all this feedback had a point.

Edited March 1, 2015 by Davoodoo

[WaRDeMoN787]

Well, I had fun...

[Katinka]

Endless also wasnt 'designed', it was just higher lvled enemies thrown in if someone wants to try enemies which arent balanced.

 

Yep.  Totally agree.  That's why endless missions broke when the enemy level got too high and they stopped spawning.  That's why weapons and warframes aren't balanced around 2 hours in.  We even get in-game messages telling us to take a break if we play over 1 hour total, never mind per mission.  The difference with Raids is that they are intentional and are currently undergoing internal testing, something that the Escalation mission and long endless missions wont have had.

 

Well, I had fun...

 

Me too.  This has been a really fun day for me in Warframe as I got together with a couple of my friends and had an exhilarating game.  Something that doesn't happen so much now as we have been playing for a long time.  This was something fresh and an exciting, thrilling challenge.

Edited March 1, 2015 by Katinka

[Yinkuji]

Then why do we even have melee? Why abilities like Slash Dash that are clearly not going to be of much help? Why frames like Ember with the same problem? Is endgame just Boltor Prime, Synoid, and CC/perma-invisibility? Because there's too much in this game for that to be the case.

Welcome to Warframe.

 

Logged on to update my Stratos Emblem and won't be back until the next major update. TA or no TA, Warframe's balance has always been horrible and DE shows no sign of improving. I thought DE would take the feedback from the last TA and improve upon their idea of "challenging" but what we got was another half-assed attempt at creating challenging content that makes the majority of the frames in the game irrelevant.

 

Oh, well.

Edited March 1, 2015 by Yinkuji

[Davoodoo]

Yep.  Totally agree.  That's why endless missions broke when the enemy level got too high and they stopped spawning.  That's why weapons and warframes aren't balanced around 2 hours in.  We even get in-game messages telling us to take a break if we play over 1 hour total, never mind per mission.  The difference with Raids is that they are intentional and are currently undergoing internal testing, something that the Escalation mission and long endless missions wont have had.

I cant really see it working if they are gonna again use what we already have, unless some changes will actually happen.

But hey, if it somehow works, great

[Noteybook]

So it's almost like Raids are end game content that not everyone can do right out the gate?

 

And this Tac Alert was for those people wanting a challenge. It's not meant for everyone.

[Otaiken]

Warframe - the space ninja game. Jump, slide and run around, block bullets, shoot and slice enemies and use abilities... up until certain level where this whole unique blend of gameplay becomes completely useless. Watch this game turn into inferior version of ME3 multiplayer cover shooter and then into... whatever the current "meta" is.

 

It's not just gear. Game mechanics drop off one after another as they become dead weight against the ridiculous enemies.

 

This bar is your shield. It protects you from damage... up till a point where it's useless. Here's all the mobility tools, it helps you close the distance and (hopefully) avoid taking fire... up till this point where it's useless. Here is melee block, it helps... you get the idea. All the way up to... here is your X ability... now listen carefully, out of all the mechanics we presented over the course of the game, this is the ONLY one that is important, cause this is the ONLY thing that will keep you alive at this point. So just... like... use it over and over again, have fun!

[Davoodoo]

Warframe - the space ninja game. Jump, slide and run around, block bullets, shoot and slice enemies and use abilities... up until certain level where this whole unique blend of gameplay becomes completely useless. Watch this game turn into inferior version of ME3 multiplayer cover shooter and then into... whatever the current "meta" is.

 

It's not just gear. Game mechanics drop off one after another as they become dead weight against the ridiculous enemies.

 

This bar is your shield. It protects you from damage... up till a point where it's useless. Here's all the mobility tools, it helps you close the distance and (hopefully) avoid taking fire... up till this point where it's useless. Here is melee block, it helps... you get the idea. All the way up to... here is your X ability... now listen carefully, out of all the mechanics we presented over the course of the game, this is the ONLY one that is important, cause this is the ONLY thing that will keep you alive at this point. So just... like... use it over and over again, have fun!

You know whats best?? Me3 actually had more functional melee than warframe, in a game where enemy can ohko you only when they get close melee proved to be less risky and more effective tactic than in warframe.

Edited March 1, 2015 by Davoodoo

[sanj66]

Yeah people complain without making any sense, these missions are meant TO BE HARD, THEY are NOT for every player,  we've been asking for them for a long time, it's nice to see that DE is hearing and actually making Raids with lvl 80 creatures  and are starting to do challenges like that.

IF you can't complete them, it's not their fault, it's yours, it's because you or your team are not prepared to face it. 

 

 

Raids or Challenges? cause we still don't have raids, no one played them to test, only saw it on devstream. Now Challenges are meant to be like that, after all It's  a CHALLENGE, otherwise it would be just another mission.

again you all fail to even understand what he pointed out, DIFFICULTY is not the issue. funneling choice is, making only cc abilities viable or making x frame more viable because it is better at cc is the issue. sue its meant to be a challenge but a challenge for all frames not the frames that are less inclined to cc or has no damage reduction or avoidance skill or who has crappy ones at that. DE has not been listening to its players for a year players wanted focus over all this crap what do they do? laugh it off and push out complete failures like dark sectors and archwing, players asked for balance what do they do? release boltor prime, and now raids and this alert showed the unbalance in frames, once i can cc better than you i do have a higher chance to succeed hell it makes it easy mode to some frames while difficult to others or more difficult funneling the choice to best load out wins. that was the point of the op not whining about difficulty. i believe he said he completed it i completed it but that does not excuse the fact that this just shows how poorly DE is at designing an actual challenge or at balancing.