Our Ability Usage Is Unbalanced: Here's How To Fix It

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

This game isn't properly metered when it comes to energy. Ultimates are so cheap to use there's no reason not to, considering they wipe large portions of the map away and only require a single orb to replenish when modded properly. But this doesn't help the game, as it's increasingly being designed around avoiding firefights. Instead of using our abilities to help shootouts, our most used abilities either prevent the enemies from shooting, prevent us from being shot at, or outright kill everything. The problem is that there can be no challenge in that situation.

DE made a conscious decision to increase ability usage, but they didn't do it the right way with mods like Fleeting Expertise; instead of causing players to use all the abilities more, only a few get used regularly, and its only the most powerful, most expensive few. So here's what should happen: first of all, efficiency needs to be calculated properly. Right now "75% efficiency" is really 400%, because players can cast 4X the number of abilities for the same cost. It should be calculated as follows:

efficiency = cost in decimals / ( 1 + mod value in decimals).

Now, 75% efficiency ultimates would cost 1/1.75 or 57 energy. But Wii, that just means we lose options!

Don't worry, we're going to do one of two things to most of the 1st/low level abilities in game: either improve their viability or decrease their cost. Now, we're still able to constantly use abilities, but these abilities improve the battle rather than end it. Battle-ending abilities will be the expensive 75 or 100 energy ones.

Now, I'm going to go through each 1st ability and explain how it will be improved.

Ash: Shurikens would only cost 10 energy. Now players have a reason to use it instead of Bladestorm (without needing augments).

Banshee: Good as is-- Banshee would probably need some adjustments to make her not feel weak, but her first is in a good spot.

Ember: Fireballs do 800 damage and 400 AoE damage. That's a lot, but Ember was made to do damage.

Excalibur: Slash Dash does 600 finisher damage and scales with melee counter (without augment). Now it will kill enemies all the way through the star chart, and a player who uses the melee counter effectively will be able to use it well into high levels.

Frost: Freeze freezes all the enemies around the initial target, and can be used to create effective choke points as well as immobilize enemies.

Hydroid: Tempest Barrage will last much longer, have a wider range, and can be cast multiple times. If any enemy is dumb enough to stand under it, that enemy will absolutely be killed.

Limbo: Untouched. Limbo's playstyle wouldn't much be helped by any change to this ability.

Loki: Decoys cost 10 energy, and can be recast. Now you can create an army of fake Loki's! On the flip side, Invisibility's cost is gonna go up.

Mag: Untouched. Pull is a great ability already.

Mesa: Little experience with this frame, sorry. I didn't think it would be fair to suggest anything without understanding its usage.

Mirage: Good as is. Mirage is one of the few frames that has a useful ultimate, yet a first ability that is worth using over it consistently.

Nekros: Costs 10 energy. Soul Punch all the things.

Nova: Null Star steals the explosion on death from M-Prime. Nova will still have the same skillset, but will have more ways of using it (four wouldn't always be the best option!). Moreover, now players of non-squishy frames will still have some semblance of a fight against M-Prime'd enemies, while Nova will still have the tool she needs to completely dominate in it.

Nyx: Multiple targets can be Mind Controlled. A player adept at picking targets will enjoy the control this gives on the battlefield.

Oberon: Smite now chains to more targets, but it is in a pretty good spot.

Rhino: This might be a dangerous one (may encourage rushing too much), but Charge costs 15 energy. Again though, I'm shaky on this one.

Saryn: Venom (which should be named Contagion) has a guaranteed AoE Viral proc on spore burst.

Trinity: I have nothing for this one. Hopefully, if energy were an actual limit, people would use Well of Life over Blessing sometimes. Otherwise, perhaps it could be an areal skill that allows all players to lifesteal from enemies inside.

Valkyr: Ripline costs 10 energy. More mobility for a melee oriented frame.

Vauban: Tesla's fire rate increased to once every second at max rank.

Volt: Shock now causes a tripled status duration, increasing the viability of the stun.

Zephyr: Tail Wind's in a good spot IMO.

Now we still have lots of abilities, and those abilities are still very helpful. But now the abilities we use most will help us in the fight without eliminating challenge.

The enemies DE's been using to discourage our use of abilities will be removed: namely Nullifiers and Parasitic Eximi. At the very least, Nullifiers will no longer be able to block bullets, and Parasitic Eximi will give back stolen energy on death. Moreover, there's going to be a damage cap for scaling enemies of roughly level 50 damage so tanks can still tank and non-tanks can breathe without having to use ultimates/perma CC all the time.

Finally, please leave your feedback. I'm open to other ways to improve frames' first abilities besides my suggestions.

Edited March 13, 2015 by (PS4)WiiConquered

[VioDuskar]

reducing energy costs to 10 will not help most of those skills, in my opinion.

i have plenty of energy most of the time to cast anything i need. i use skills based on what they do and what i need, not how much they cost.

 

soul punch only to rez...

 

I respect you OP. you admit that you have little knowledge of mesa's first. at least you're honest. most people would make suggestions even if they havent tried the frame.

 

today OP was pretty reasonable.

I'm not for changing the way efficiency is calculated, it makes the game even harder to explain to noobs.

also, IDK about that whole last paragraph. i think those enemies are fine the way they are.

Edited March 11, 2015 by VioDuskar

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

reducing energy costs to 10 will not help most of those skills, in my opinion.

i have plenty of energy most of the time to cast anything i need. i use skills based on what they do and what i need, not how much they cost.

 

soul punch only to rez...

I would definitely use Shuriken, Freeze, Ripline, and Decoy more if I could get 10 for the cost of 1 ultimate. Although perhaps there needs to be more energy restrictions. I considered preventing enemies killed by abilities from casting orbs, but I fear the meta will just be moved even more towards CC. Perhaps preventing/decreasing the likelihood of enemies under the effect of abilities in any way from dropping orbs? Even that just nerfs abilities like Decoy or Soul Punch.

[Brandr_]

I love how you see the occasional, self entitled, player who thinks a system is broken, and then from the "goodness" of their hearts they tell DE the best way to fix THEIR game

[VoidPunch]

The cost is not what makes lower skills unused, its the fact that they are not that useful. Most lower abilities are already super cheap but don't do much to help our survival or battle.

They need to make lesser abilities more useful, preferably not in damage either but more utility, cc, team/self buffing etc. Reserve massive damage and room clearing for the higher skills.

 

 

I love how you see the occasional, self entitled, player who thinks a system is broken, and then from the "goodness" of their hearts they tell DE the best way to fix THEIR game

 

Lol this too

Edited March 11, 2015 by HandsOfnArtist

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

I love how you see the occasional, self entitled, player who thinks a system is broken, and then from the "goodness" of their hearts they tell DE the best way to fix THEIR game

I'm sorry that you're bothered by feedback in the feedback section.

The cost is not what makes lower skills unused, its the fact that they are not that useful. Most lower abilities are already super cheap but don't do much to help our survival or battle.

They need to make lesser abilities more useful, preferably not in damage either but more utility, cc, team/self buffing etc. Reserve massive damage and room clearing for the higher skills.

You're now the second person to say that, so I'm looking at other ways of buffing the abilities I cheapened.

[Shuuro]

I remember when corrupted mods didn't exist, and people had to use flow+streamline to use ultimate at a hefty price of 70 energy.

 

Now a days Ults are so easy to come by it's lost it's shine as the ultimate move of the frame.

 

I'd really like to see those days come back, where energy was more of a precious resource instead of something easily wasted. People will of course disagree and call 25 energy spamming ults a playstyle, but I digress.

[Buzkyl]

I love how you see the occasional, self entitled, player who thinks a system is broken, and then from the "goodness" of their hearts they tell DE the best way to fix THEIR game

 

 

This is implying that our current energy and skill system work fine, they don't. This forum is for feedback, so yes, people are going to tell DE how to fix thier game. I don't see how this is self entitled.

 

Press42win exist because currently ultimate are the best skills to use 90% of the time comapred to the rest of the kit.

Edited March 11, 2015 by cozzi21

[Chroia]

@(PS4)WiiConquered:

Stupid question - Why not just axe or repurpose Power Efficiency? Or maybe just Fleeting Expertise.

[Frawg]

This game isn't properly metered when it comes to energy. Ultimates are so cheap to use there's no reason not to, considering they wipe large portions of the map away and only require a single orb to replenish when modded properly. But this doesn't help the game, as it's increasingly being designed around avoiding firefights. Instead of using our abilities to help shootouts, our most used abilities either prevent the enemies from shooting, prevent us from being shot at, or outright kill everything. The problem is that there can be no challenge in that situation.

I love how you see the occasional, self entitled, player who thinks a system is broken, and then from the "goodness" of their hearts they tell DE the best way to fix THEIR game

 

There isn't really a problem to begin with: the game /isn't/ about guys with guns and an occasional ability once in a few minutes--it's about ancient warriors using their high-tech forbidden powers to manipulate the battlefield towards their own benefit. The tenno are supposed to move smoothly and easily between power and gun, and gun and power again, not the OP's view of a tactically placed event.

"But in the beginning of the game, it isn't as abusive or fast". At the beginning where the frame is rank 0, the frame can't surmount to anything; it has no abilties, it knows nothing. It can't do anything without a silly killstick we call a gun. Once the frame ranks, it learns. It learns these new abilities that it can use, later how it can improve upon them. All until it masters all it was taught (rank 30).

 

(Forma'ing could be compared to a pilgrimage where the tenno relearns how everything works only to get better at it.)

 

for the press-4-to-win cases, many of them require a full-squad coordination and cooperation. For the ones that don't, that's simply because of level/rank difference between the player and the enemy (I fully expect to absolutely kill everything with a single puff of my breath in levels vastly below me, in any game).

Edited March 11, 2015 by Frawg

[JakeRobber]

I agree with everything you say about how energy efficiency should work, and I definitely agree with adjusting first abilities to be more viable and/or cost efficient at their base.

 

However, I hope you have thick skin, OP.  People don't take kindly to change, and energy efficiency is one of the most dangerous things you could possibly scrutinize.  Think about it.  What is the one Prime mod that everyone seems to want more than any other?

 

I wish you luck, Wii.  I think you're pretty brave posting a topic like this.  You have my respect.

 

 

Now, prepare yourself for the flames.

[CY13ERPUNK]

neat stuff OP

 

almost as good as my ideas about energy 2.0

 

basically #1 abilities should not cost energy, but they would generate energy instead

 

(obviously each one would/should give more/less based on its usage, ie slash dash should prolly only give based on the amount of tgts hit, whereas soul punch would need to give more since its only single tgt and cant be free cast)

 

ULTs would remain basically the same (even tho IMHO more abilities need to have LoS restrictions, with maybe a smaller minimum radius within that they ignore LoS), and most #2/3 abilities are good enough to carry their own weight (obviously some are not, but buffing/tweaking them is another discussion)

 

no more blue balls from enemies, instead all frames have an innate slow energy regen (different/unique rate for each frame) that only regens upto a certain amount of their total reserve, ie 40-60% (again this would be different/unique to each frame, much like how the current max energy stats and shlds/hp/armor/spd/etc already are), thusly if you wanted to have more energy, you would need to use yer #1 to build it up over the equilibrium point 

 

kinda still ok with the blue/red balls from frame abilities or crates/lockers, just NOT from enemies anymore

 

in this way frames could either use their #1 to build up energy or they could wait for the slow regen (and of course this opens up the possibility of having a lot more mods to tweak all these new stats)

 

but bottom line, there is an incentive to use more of the 1-3 powers now based on cost and function, and ULTs can stay powerful [u could probably still build a frame who could spam ULTs with the right mods, but it would simply require more sacrifices, which is appropriate]

 

lastly i think that 75% power efficiency is too much, change up the mod #s and have 50% be the new cap, ie abilities that cost 100 energy can only be lowered to 50 instead of 25

Edited March 11, 2015 by CY13ERPUNK

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

I agree with everything you say about how energy efficiency should work, and I definitely agree with adjusting first abilities to be more viable and/or cost efficient at their base.

 

However, I hope you have thick skin, OP.  People don't take kindly to change, and energy efficiency is one of the most dangerous things you could possibly scrutinize.  Think about it.  What is the one Prime mod that everyone seems to want more than any other?

 

I wish you luck, Wii.  I think you're pretty brave posting a topic like this.  You have my respect.

 

 

Now, prepare yourself for the flames.

I'm fine with getting hate, although I wish more of the people who were disagreeing with me were being productive towards the conversation in the process. Then we could have a conversation instead of a mud-flinging contest.

@(PS4)WiiConquered:

Stupid question - Why not just axe or repurpose Power Efficiency? Or maybe just Fleeting Expertise.

I considered it, but I didn't think the mod was too harmful-- if its efficiency bonuses were actually properly calculated.

[Kruglov]

Nah.

 

You can make Shurikan cost 0 energy and people still wont use it.

 

Ability usage is unbalanced but not because of energy.

 

It's because most warframes have 3 awful abilities and 1 super ridiculous good ability.

 

On the reason people spam the 1 good ability is because otherwise the gameplay is boring and unrewarding.

 

- make gameplay fun without powers

- make gameplay rewarding without powers

- THEN buff 1's 2's and 3's

- THEN nerf 4's

- game is now fixed

 

The solution is not to make bad things cheap.

You know what else is cheap? McDonalds.

And just look what has happened.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Nah.

 

You can make Shurikan cost 0 energy and people still wont use it.

 

Ability usage is unbalanced but not because of energy.

 

It's because most warframes have 3 awful abilities and 1 super ridiculous good ability.

 

On the reason people spam the 1 good ability is because otherwise the gameplay is boring and unrewarding.

 

- make gameplay fun without powers

- make gameplay rewarding without powers

- THEN buff 1's 2's and 3's

- THEN nerf 4's

- game is now fixed

 

The solution is not to make bad things cheap.

You know what else is cheap? McDonalds.

And just look what has happened.

The goal really wasn't to "make bad things cheap". It was to make energy costs reflective of the relative use of items. Although I can see the argument that 10 Shurikens still isn't worth one Bladestorm. But if energy was much harder to come by, players might love the most expensive ability more, but it wouldn't matter if they could only use it once every five minutes.

As for the "make gameplay fun without powers" first, it really needs to happen all at once. The MLG one-shot enemies are gonna have to go as well, although that wasn't the focus of this post. DE added all these things in to counteract our power, but only made the game more frustrating for those who didn't perma CC or instakill away all their enemies.

[Xana_Skullsunder]

The solution is not to make bad things cheap.

You know what else is cheap? McDonalds.

And just look what has happened.

 

McDonald's makes millions of dollars with their bad-but-cheap food. That's a terrible analogy.

[Racercowboy]

I like the some of the ideas here, although only a few address why people don't use them much, which is practicality. For example, Mesa's 1 (since it was not mentioned in the OP for reasons) is a good ability, but it's not practical. Why do I need a damage increase when my guns already kill the entire ancestral line and future descendants of my target? I'd be better off using a different skill that does something more useful. Even if the skill had no cost, it would not be worth taking the time to cast it because the results are pretty much the same. Now, in a scenario where guns do not have enough formas to form a full puzzle or has maxed serration and such this would be handy for that one big guy, because enemies do not die in one shot, usually.

 

A good example of a fix for this would be the OP's suggestion for Nova. Suddenly, Null Star has a severe case of the BOOMS while Molecular Prime does not. It gains the chain explosion element of Nova's kit, while Molecular Prime keeps it's slow and damage increase. A not so good example is Frost, even if Freeze gave you energy for using it people still would not use it to Freeze things. The skill is just bad. The freeze effect is nice, but the energy cost and time to aim just do not make it worth using it over just straight up shooting them, especially when they are easily unfrozen. So, you use a kill to freeze something then when you go to kill it it's not frozen anymore. IMO Freeze should be an ongoing AOE aura around Frost where if enemies stay in it too long they become frozen. For the augment make it work on those who are in the range of the aura at the time of cast.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

I like the some of the ideas here, although only a few address why people don't use them much, which is practicality. For example, Mesa's 1 (since it was not mentioned in the OP for reasons) is a good ability, but it's not practical. Why do I need a damage increase when my guns already kill the entire ancestral line and future descendants of my target? I'd be better off using a different skill that does something more useful. Even if the skill had no cost, it would not be worth taking the time to cast it because the results are pretty much the same. Now, in a scenario where guns do not have enough formas to form a full puzzle or has maxed serration and such this would be handy for that one big guy, because enemies do not die in one shot, usually.

 

A good example of a fix for this would be the OP's suggestion for Nova. Suddenly, Null Star has a severe case of the BOOMS while Molecular Prime does not. It gains the chain explosion element of Nova's kit, while Molecular Prime keeps it's slow and damage increase. A not so good example is Frost, even if Freeze gave you energy for using it people still would not use it to Freeze things. The skill is just bad. The freeze effect is nice, but the energy cost and time to aim just do not make it worth using it over just straight up shooting them, especially when they are easily unfrozen. So, you use a kill to freeze something then when you go to kill it it's not frozen anymore. IMO Freeze should be an ongoing AOE aura around Frost where if enemies stay in it too long they become frozen. For the augment make it work on those who are in the range of the aura at the time of cast.

That's a good point on Freeze. What if its freeze radius were greatly increased, so that instead of freezing one target and slowing a couple more near it you could essentially freeze a door shut with enemies? Or what if it had punch-through?

[AlphaHorseman]

The problem is that the other powers within a kit aren't as fleshed out as they should be. They're lackluster powers that require some much needed love. Our power usage is not out of balance, it's doing as expected by design. It may not be something you like, OP, but that's just how some people play the game.

 

If you want the players to use the other powers, make those powers worth using by increasing the effectiveness of their mechanics, and adding better mechanics to those powers.

[(PSN)deathfrombelow5]

OP-

While I like your idea of buffing the first ability skills, what they need is utility. The problem with most skills is that they rely on poor damage. Even if they received damage buffs, they would still not have what they need to be useful. What would be better is if they were given some non-gamechanging utility. For instance, if excal's slash dash could let you continue into melee hits(You hit an enemy, and then press melee to go into a delay-less melee attack). 

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

OP-

While I like your idea of buffing the first ability skills, what they need is utility. The problem with most skills is that they rely on poor damage. Even if they received damage buffs, they would still not have what they need to be useful. What would be better is if they were given some non-gamechanging utility. For instance, if excal's slash dash could let you continue into melee hits(You hit an enemy, and then press melee to go into a delay-less melee attack).

I agree for the most part, although there are some utility skills like Freeze that everyone hates, while there are damage skills like Bladestorm people like--it just has to do enough damage to be usable at high levels. I think 600 finisher damage is a lot, because finisher ignores armor and shields.

The problem is that the other powers within a kit aren't as fleshed out as they should be. They're lackluster powers that require some much needed love. Our power usage is not out of balance, it's doing as expected by design. It may not be something you like, OP, but that's just how some people play the game.

 

If you want the players to use the other powers, make those powers worth using by increasing the effectiveness of their mechanics, and adding better mechanics to those powers.

A couple of days ago we talked about balancing decisions. My view is that they affect the entire game, not just the people using the items in question. Why? Because DE designs challenge around these things. I don't like pressing one or two buttons as my entire frame's kit, but I'm going to have to for the Raids. I don't like energy being so cheap its not counted, but when enemies are designed to hard counter Flow + Fleeting it means I have to or I won't be able to cast anything at all.

Also, more and more, DE's using bizarre and illogical mission and spawning rules to counter the fact that people can use certain combinations of abilities so effectively they can kill hundreds of enemies per second. But the powerfarming is just a symptom of several things, one being that abilities are so powerful we could do this anyway. These suggestions wouldn't weaken those from happening by any means, but they would set the precident that DE's changing the game into more than just "press four to win" (which Steve said in his Vivergate post was a problem).

[AlphaHorseman]

A couple of days ago we talked about balancing decisions. My view is that they affect the entire game, not just the people using the items in question. Why? Because DE designs challenge around these things. I don't like pressing one or two buttons as my entire frame's kit, but I'm going to have to for the Raids. I don't like energy being so cheap its not counted, but when enemies are designed to hard counter Flow + Fleeting it means I have to or I won't be able to cast anything at all.

Also, more and more, DE's using bizarre and illogical mission and spawning rules to counter the fact that people can use certain combinations of abilities so effectively they can kill hundreds of enemies per second. But the powerfarming is just a symptom of several things, one being that abilities are so powerful we could do this anyway. These suggestions wouldn't weaken those from happening by any means, but they would set the precident that DE's changing the game into more than just "press four to win" (which Steve said in his Vivergate post was a problem).

Yes, balance is very important. However, hindering the availability of our powers is more so damaging player preference and freedom, rather than achieving balance. Looking at Raids, for example, the only powers that can actually be useful at that level of content are the powers that have CC/Utility. Straight damage abilities are going to fall flat or not even be useful. All that changing the efficiency formula does is make those powers that actually do scale through content, less available for players to use to help themselves. Even with your changes, some powers are still not going to scale well, or would be extremely OP for a skill that costs far less than an ultimate.

 

DE is changing the game, but so far their responses have been sporadic. After Steve stated that, DE released Primed Flow, with Primed Continuity, and with a Primed Streamline on the way. On the other side they've released Nullifiers. Ultimately the nullifiers hurt more weapon variety than power usage, although they do the latter without discretion.

 

Rather than hindering player preference and narrowing choice, as this goes completely against WarFrames core, we should be expanding the choice we have in our game by making more options more appealing, rather than limiting the options at hand. If our WarFrames had fleshed out kits that had all of their powers being useful, we'd see more variety on the battlefield in terms of power usage. Take Loki for example, all his powers are extremely useful. Same with Banshee, same with Nyx (although Psychic bolts needs some work, imo), and so on. These kits have very useful powers throughout their kit, and can be built in many different ways because their powers afford synergy and also versatility. These frames have all powers with usefulness through CC/Utility that is effective throughout content, rather than limited to only one power or another that has those characteristics.

 

If we had all frames at that level of usability, then the use of only one or two powers within a kit would be very small, as players can now play around with a fully fleshed out, solid WarFrame kit.

 

One Frame you used is Frost, and he's my favourite. I've made a thread about making his powers more useful, not by hindering the availability of them, but by actually making the powers themselves very useful for a plethora of situations/fights. If anything, our powers should be strong as such, rather than warned against through efficiency neutering.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/416143-saving-mr-snow-globe/#entry4604141

 

Hard limiting the efficiency formula limits choice. The great thing about WarFrame is that we all have choice to play how we will, and the system doesn't limit our choice. That's how we should be looking at it. DE has given us the tools, however we use those tools is our choice to make. Implementing a system that limits choice isn't going to help nor does it keep with the theme of the game. Improving the tools at hand is how we should be looking at it, rather than limiting them.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

Yes, balance is very important. However, hindering the availability of our powers is more so damaging player preference and freedom, rather than achieving balance. Looking at Raids, for example, the only powers that can actually be useful at that level of content are the powers that have CC/Utility. Straight damage abilities are going to fall flat or not even be useful. All that changing the efficiency formula does is make those powers that actually do scale through content, less available for players to use to help themselves. Even with your changes, some powers are still not going to scale well, or would be extremely OP for a skill that costs far less than an ultimate.

DE is changing the game, but so far their responses have been sporadic. After Steve stated that, DE released Primed Flow, with Primed Continuity, and with a Primed Streamline on the way. On the other side they've released Nullifiers. Ultimately the nullifiers hurt more weapon variety than power usage, although they do the latter without discretion.

Rather than hindering player preference and narrowing choice, as this goes completely against WarFrames core, we should be expanding the choice we have in our game by making more options more appealing, rather than limiting the options at hand. If our WarFrames had fleshed out kits that had all of their powers being useful, we'd see more variety on the battlefield in terms of power usage. Take Loki for example, all his powers are extremely useful. Same with Banshee, same with Nyx (although Psychic bolts needs some work, imo), and so on. These kits have very useful powers throughout their kit, and can be built in many different ways because their powers afford synergy and also versatility. These frames have all powers with usefulness through CC/Utility that is effective throughout content, rather than limited to only one power or another that has those characteristics.

If we had all frames at that level of usability, then the use of only one or two powers within a kit would be very small, as players can now play around with a fully fleshed out, solid WarFrame kit.

One Frame you used is Frost, and he's my favourite. I've made a thread about making his powers more useful, not by hindering the availability of them, but by actually making the powers themselves very useful for a plethora of situations/fights. If anything, our powers should be strong as such, rather than warned against through efficiency neutering.

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/416143-saving-mr-snow-globe/#entry4604141

Hard limiting the efficiency formula limits choice. The great thing about WarFrame is that we all have choice to play how we will, and the system doesn't limit our choice. That's how we should be looking at it. DE has given us the tools, however we use those tools is our choice to make. Implementing a system that limits choice isn't going to help nor does it keep with the theme of the game. Improving the tools at hand is how we should be looking at it, rather than limiting them.

First of all, your Raid argument is circular logic. If players didn't have such an easy time with normal content, DE wouldn't have needed to increase the levels so much to attempt to challenge 8 players. (Based on the way CC works in this game, it won't matter).

Anyway, you believe that decreasing the viability of options can't add options, or at least that's what I'm getting from this.

I'm going to use extremes to illustrate why that's wrong. I'm not saying you're advocating for them, but they make the point:

Let's say there was a new frame called Ultimate. Its ultimate will be a free ability that does 10,000 Finisher damage to everything on the map. How could anything else be viable at that point? There would be only one choice. But without nerfing that ability, it wouldn't be possible to introduce more viable options, simply because other options already are viable, they're just overshadowed by an ability that's OP. If DE didn't nerf the ability, they could either:

1. accept that those players won't ever be challenged, and that no other frame would be relevant compared to it.

2. buff everything else including the enemies up to that level, which would just be a nerf that took longer to execute.

3. buff everything else except the enemies, which would just make the game easier--classic powercreep.

4. design the enemies to hard-counter abilities, which would leave the other frames, now unable to cast abilities, even more worthless, kill progression, and defeat the purpose of not nerfing Ultimate's ability in the first place.

2, 3, and 4 have all been tried over the time I've been playing this game (often because of the repercussions of the last one tried), and it hasn't taken long to see their flaws. So there's the point: limits to abilities do not limit choice. Instead, the opposite happens. There becomes more options that are relevant. The game would have an accepted challenge level. The enemies wouldn't need to beat us by preventing us from having the items we're supposed to be able to use. Limits are necessary for an engaging experience, because we can only test our limits if we have them.

Edited March 12, 2015 by (PS4)WiiConquered

[Racercowboy]

That's a good point on Freeze. What if its freeze radius were greatly increased, so that instead of freezing one target and slowing a couple more near it you could essentially freeze a door shut with enemies? Or what if it had punch-through?

I think the bigger issue here is even if it were buffed, it's too much like Icewave, more so with the Icewave augment mod. I think the original intention was Freeze would lock down a guy whereas Icewave would slow enemies in a line aoe in front of you. Sadly, Icewave's slow is effective enough to replace Freeze (due to how ineffective Freeze is) and the augment makes it plain silly.

 

In the current scene, Freeze might be useful if it was a shot that had an aoe freeze effect, but then you might make it better than Icewave. Rather than having two skills compete with each other, why not make them work together, which would also give people an incentive to use other abilities more often?

Edited March 13, 2015 by Racercowboy

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

I think the bigger issue here is even if it were buffed, it's too much like Icewave, more so with the Icewave augment mod. I think the original intention was Freeze would lock down a guy whereas Icewave would slow enemies in a line aoe in front of you. Sadly, Icewave's slow is effective enough to replace Freeze (due to how ineffective Freeze is) and the augment makes it plain silly.

 

In the current scene, Freeze might be useful if it was a shot that had an aoe freeze effect, but then you might make it better than Icewave. Rather than having two skills compete with each other, why not make them work together, which would also give people an incentive to use other abilities more often?

I fear an AoE cold proc would be counterproductive to any Frost playstyle. He's too slow to encourage melee (where that AoE slow would be most effective) and it would have little purpose next to his globe. Maybe Ice Wave's damage and range could be buffed? Allowing Ice Wave to be about hitting larger numbers of targets harder, while Freeze would be about completely immobilizing a few enemies as now, except now that few would be more than 1.