Pvp: Oneshots Don't Belong Competitive Pvp

[Burnthesteak87]

About Skills:
#1 shouldn't ever be able to oneshot;
Aoe #4 Skills should need a long cooldown (2 to 5 minutes?).

About Weapons:
I understand bows have low ammos and need more precision to be used, but thats not a good justification to oneshotting.

Though about bows, they should one shot since they are a skill based weapon

Nope, you just need a better ping than your target.
For a balance I'd suggest to reduce the flight time and remove the "oneshot factor".

EDIT 24th March: It seems Bows have been balanced (damage reduction). Now the problem are Bratons. #1 Skills still deal too much damage and #4 Skills still oneshot.


The main rules are: RISK VS REWARD, BALANCE, CHANCE TO REACT.

Oneshotting shouldn't NEVER be possible or it should have a reliable counterplay or deterrence.
In a PVP Game the outcome of an action should be influenced 50% vs 50% by both players involved.
The skillcap limit must be that 50%. The more you master your abilities the most you can profit of your 50% opportunity.
There shouldn't be a 60-100% in the hands of the aggressor. The victim should have every time 50% chances to react or fighting back.
When there's a starting situation which isn't that 50% vs 50%, there's imbalance.

If you give one player the possibility to oneshot, the upper hand on the 50% chance of action goes to that player. The chance to fail due to circumstances or his own skill is the only factor influencing the outcome of the action. The victim wouldn't have the chance to fight back (if he/she's not provided with immunity to damage defenses -and we know immunities are on the same plane with oneshots, imbalanced-).
This way a skilled player will always have the upper hand on whatever player, be skilled and experienced or not.

Counterplay mechanics: Dodgeable, Parriable*, suffering LOS, Long casting time/Telegraphed+Interruptible.
Deterrence mechanics: Higher costs, Long Cooldown, Influent downsides, Consuming Energy even when interrupted.

*(only when Stamina will become a thing)

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PS:

This is not "I just share my experience thread".

Please give a valid motivation if you feel it's legit.

 

You think bows are balanced? Explain with some logic why. Not just "because it needs skill". Give a context. And keep in consideration valid points.

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PPS: This is another option to balance the numbers, thanks Amazerath

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/422460-pvp-oneshots-dont-belong-competitive-pvp/page-3#entry4693963

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PPPS: An alternative problem detected during discussions is the Extreme Mobility of players.

Edited March 24, 2015 by Burnthesteak87

[xethier]

without oneshots, stealth kills and stealth multipliers are impossible to attain.

so you wanna just kick out that whole mechanic eh?

 

i'm thinking this is a troll thread.

 

p.s. "shouldn't never" is a double negative... and terrible grammar.

 

edit:

ah, this is the pvp feedback thread. -- sorry i caught it on the recent topics section and didn't notice.

 

i'd agree with you in that skills shouldn't be able to one shot. (especially #1)

as for bows... i'm gonna go with rakshal below me, if you're skilled enough to hit a fast-moving tenno with a bow, then you should be rewarded for it. -- removing terminal velocity would increase the difficulty to succeed in that shot, so i'll agree with him on that too.

Edited March 21, 2015 by xethier

[Rakshal]

I agree about skills.

 

Though about bows, they should one shot since they are a skill based weapon. The only balancing pass I would make on bows is to remove Terminal Velocity from the PvP mods selection. I think the TTK of every other weapon should be lower as well to make it more fair against bows.

 

[BlizzardMamba]

^this exactly 

[Kasumi-]

This has been discussed to death. Cooldowns are not happening.

I just realized this was in PvP feedback.

 

2-5 minute cooldowns on ults is still a bit overkill.

 

Maybe 45 seconds/90 seconds?

[Burnthesteak87]

 

I agree about skills.

 

Though about bows, they should one shot since they are a skill based weapon. The only balancing pass I would make on bows is to remove Terminal Velocity from the PvP mods selection. I think the TTK of every other weapon should be lower as well to make it more fair against bows.

 

 

You just need a better ping than your opponent.

I repeat, Oneshots shouldn't be admitted.

[Burnthesteak87]

I just realized this was in PvP feedback.

 

2-5 minute cooldowns on ults is still a bit overkill.

 

Maybe 45 seconds/90 seconds?

 

2 minutes. Actually with no cooldown you can manage to control energy spawns and you can wipe away a whole enemy team with 1 key.

That's "not a little" exagerated.

[xethier]

You just need a better ping than your opponent.

I repeat, Oneshots shouldn't be admitted.

 

lmao, a better ping? 

regardless of ping times, hitting a player with a bow shot takes practice, skill and fair bit of luck and tactical awareness.

ping is way down the list of requirements.

 

there definitely *should* be one-shot kills available from certain weapons.

sniper rifles

bows

some melee (heavy swords / axes with proper setup & type of attack -- i.e. stealth blows)

 

i actually like that warframe has such brutal, razor edge pvp. (now that they're actually trying to remove the "cheese" aspects)

[CriticalFumble]

without oneshots, stealth kills and stealth multipliers are impossible to attain.

so you wanna just kick out that whole mechanic eh?

 

i'm thinking this is a troll thread.

 

p.s. "shouldn't never" is a double negative... and terrible grammar.

I'm thinking this is about PvP. 

 

Also, you can use a double negatives.  They're just easy to screw up, as in this case.  He managed to say that one-shot kills should be at least occasionally possible. 

 

I haven't fooled around with PvP yet, but it seems fair to me that if someone manages to land a headshot with a bow, that the recipient falls dead.  So long as you can't mod away the travel time, some combination of the bow wielder having incredible skill, and the recipient failing to use basic evasion. 

[Rakshal]

regardless of ping times, hitting a player with a bow shot takes practice, skill and fair bit of luck and tactical awareness.

ping is way down the list of requirements.

To add to this, if a bow user has good ping and is good with a bow, than they defiantly shouldn't have a problem using a hit scan weapon with good ping.

[Skeks]

i actually like that warframe has such brutal, razor edge pvp. (now that they're actually trying to remove the "cheese" aspects)

^This. With Saryn, vauban, and acrid all out of the picture. And no annoying npc's cluttering my nice 8 player battle, pvp's starting to shine quite nicely. Though I do tend to lean more toward hack n slash gameplay.

[RoboDoge]

 

I agree about skills.

 

Though about bows, they should one shot since they are a skill based weapon. The only balancing pass I would make on bows is to remove Terminal Velocity from the PvP mods selection. I think the TTK of every other weapon should be lower as well to make it more fair against bows.

 

 

Imo, oneshots with bows should be achieved on headshots.

[Burnthesteak87]

To add to this, if a bow user has good ping and is good with a bow, than they defiantly shouldn't have a problem using a hit scan weapon with good ping.

Not a valid justification, again. You have headshots multipliers as a prize for your aim. Definetly bows shouldn't oneshot.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Burnthesteak87

[Rakshal]

Imo, oneshots with bows should be achieved on headshots.

 

Not a valid justification, again. You have headshots multipliers as a prize for your aim. Definetly bows shouldn't oneshot.

Head shots are so unbelievably rare because of coptering. Head shots aren't skill, they are luck (unless your opponent is moving really slow for some reason).

[RoboDoge]

Head shots are so unbelievably rare because of coptering. Head shots aren't skill, they are luck (unless your opponent is moving really slow for some reason).

Coptering will go away, so headshots should be accountable.

[rockscl]

I would change oneshoot for staggering when the hit is in weakspots, oneshoot just doesnt fit this moba like fps

 

and i agree with the guy above

Edited March 21, 2015 by rockscl

[xethier]

Maybe it's just that the last fighting game I actually enjoyed was Bushido Blade... 

One-hit kills aren't a problem if skill is required to achieve them.

 

Sniper rifles : your awareness to the local area is drastically reduced. i.e. while you're sniping, someone runs up behind you and cuts your face off.

I find that balanced.

 

Bows : require skilled leading / compensation to achieve a hit. again, I find that balanced.

 

Some melee : the situation with this should be obvious.

[Aggh]

Though about bows, they should one shot since they are a skill based weapon.

Not so much at close range.  Something needs to be done about that.  Not sure how to do that without ruining the weapon as a whole.  Maybe reverse damage drop off (less damage at close range, more at long range)?

[Burnthesteak87]

This is not "I share my experience thread".
Please give a valid motivation if you feel it's legit.

You think bows are balanced? Explain with some logic why. Not just "because it needs skill". Give a context. And keep in consideration valid points.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Burnthesteak87

[Burnthesteak87]

Not so much at close range.  Something needs to be done about that.  Not sure how to do that without ruining the weapon as a whole.  Maybe reverse damage drop off (less damage at close range, more at long range)?

I'd propose to reduce the flight time and erase the oneshot thing.

[Rakshal]

This is not "I share my experience thread".

Please give a valid motivation if you feel it's legit.

You think bows are balanced? Explain with some logic why. Not just "because it needs skill". Give a context. And keep in consideration valid points.

Travel time requires good aim, charge time leaves you very open for a face full of lead. Seems pretty balanced to me.

[.Talia.]

Coptering will go away

 

Source?

Edited March 21, 2015 by RexSol

[Burnthesteak87]

Travel time requires good aim, charge time leaves you very open for a face full of lead. Seems pretty balanced to me.

Travel time is a relevant deterrent only if the target is moving sprinting orizontally and if it's not close range. On close range it's still a sure kill.

They're just deterrents which depends on the user's skill and the open field, but again, this isn't the problem. I repeat, the problem is oneshot offers no counterplay to the victim.

What I proposed is to actually reduce the flight time and abort the oneshot factor.

 

Edited March 21, 2015 by Burnthesteak87

[Aggh]

I'd propose to reduce the flight time and erase the oneshot thing.

Increased flight time would make it useless at range.  Add on no oneshots to that and you'd be getting owned by hitscan all day.

 

 

Travel time requires good aim, charge time leaves you very open for a face full of lead. Seems pretty balanced to me.

Except you don't really need to compensate for travel time at mid to close range.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Aggh

[Burnthesteak87]

Increased flight time would make it useless at range.  Add on no oneshots to that and you'd be getting owned by hitscan all day.

 

 

Except you don't really need to compensate for travel time at mid to close range.

REDUCE flight time= faster arrows. I didn't propose to slower the arrow.