[Suggestion] Either Limit Clansizes Or Implement Size-Based Brackets @ Leaderboards

[Fiyabwal]

 

In regards of the topic, i can only underline it once more:

Mass inviting > everything

Quantity > Quality

and yet once again, we had 10k more kills than a clan larger than us.

[DishSoap]

I will leave the two of you to decide on your clan's inner workings and consider my question in regards of warbros answered.

I consider it proven that the great majority of the top 10 does no filtering and is in the top list only due to mass invites. Warbros with its "ask at the right place" is a refreshing change, but doesnt really refute what i have said either.

Never the less, its good to see that the #1 has at least some standards.

 

In regards of the topic, i can only underline it once more:

Mass inviting > everything

Quantity > Quality

And this does present an issue. No matter how you look at it.

The big clans will proceed to grow even bigger with each successful event they are participating in, and will make creating new clans obsolete altogether.

They say ignorance is bliss. I'm starting to believe that more and more these days.

[Blatantfool]

I will leave the two of you to decide on your clan's inner workings and consider my question in regards of warbros answered.

I consider it proven that the great majority of the top 10 does no filtering and is in the top list only due to mass invites. Warbros with its "ask at the right place" is a refreshing change, but doesnt really refute what i have said either.

Never the less, its good to see that the #1 has at least some standards.

 

In regards of the topic, i can only underline it once more:

Mass inviting > everything

Quantity > Quality

And this does present an issue. No matter how you look at it.

The big clans will proceed to grow even bigger with each successful event they are participating in, and will make creating new clans obsolete altogether.

 

 

 Hey man, DERebecca showed me this https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/40537-fusion-moa-operation-leaderboards/?p=392377

 

 In relation to what is being talked about here. Since it is kinda about what this thread is figured I'd show you too. 

[Aerensiniac]

and yet once again, we had 10k more kills than a clan larger than us.

And yet once again: You are a refreshing exception.

I also welcome you to disprove me on the remaining 9 clans.

Its no trolling, its no toying. I am part of one of the top 10 too and i have browsed through the first top 20 when i was making my choice on who to join. As a conclusion i do know that most of them barely have (if any) filtering on player influx.

 

That being said, even if 10/10 had a tight control on inviting, we would be still facing the same problem:

Top 10 will continue to grow with each successful event, making creating new clans obsolete on the long run.

The only thing that forces clans to filter members is when they have a cap on the amount they can hold. Cause THEN you see it would matter who you invite and whether or not the specific person contributes towards the clan or not.

[Sanev_Khan]

I will leave the two of you to decide on your clan's inner workings and consider my question in regards of warbros answered.

I consider it proven that the great majority of the top 10 does no filtering and is in the top list only due to mass invites. Warbros with its "ask at the right place" is a refreshing change, but doesnt really refute what i have said either.

 

Mass inviting > everything

Quantity > Quality

 

Warbros really refutes what you said earlier (and your posts on the issue really raises questions on whether you really investigated all other clans or not), we don't invite everyone, we only invite people who are Warbros already. We've told you. That's about as exclusive as possible, and far from "everyone".

 

 

On mass inviting and quantity, you get it all wrong again, no surprise there.

See the leaderboard ? Warbros leads the Warframe Japan clan by approx. 15000 Moas. Guess what ? Warbros has less members than Warframe Japan. And still beat it by 15000 Moas. Let that sink in. 15000 more Moas destroyed. With less people.

Warbros has as many kills as the 2nd and 3rd clan, those together have twice as many members as Warbros.

You see there ? Quantity didn't beat quality, mass inviting didn't beat everything.

Edited May 10, 2013 by Sanev_Khan

[Brahmastra]

so lets all join one big clan? problem solved

 

and we call it: WakaxXxSanic420XXFl4m3x

[Aerensiniac]

 Hey man, DERebecca showed me this https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/40537-fusion-moa-operation-leaderboards/?p=392377

 

 In relation to what is being talked about here. Since it is kinda about what this thread is figured I'd show you too. 

There are arguments both pro and contra. For instance. I disagree with the guy steve quoted on "It's not like the number of members will always prevail against small clans"

The reality is that the number of members will always prevail against small clans.

There might be clans which use the mass of members more efficiently than others (warbros and warframe japan's case for example), but this wont change much when you have hundreds of members. Even if you dont give a damn about directing your clan at all, you will still score in the top 100 merely because of the sheer amount of people you are housing.

 

That being said. This is naturally the devs decision.

Its just my two cents that after the events, all of my friends have abandoned their clans and went for a request to join one of the top 10.

I expect this tendency to grow and be maintained with each global event, not to mention the time when steve and his gang implements competitive elements into the game.

 

On mass inviting and quantity, you get it all wrong again, no surprise there.

See the leaderboard ? Warbros leads the Warframe Japan clan by approx. 15000 Moas. Guess what ? Warbros has less members than Warframe Japan. And still beat it by 15000 Moas. Let that sink in. 15000 more Moas destroyed. With less people.

Warbros has as many kills as the 2nd and 3rd clan, those together have twice as many members as Warbros.

You see there ? Quantity didn't beat quality, mass inviting didn't beat everything.

 

Refer to what i wrote above.

You are more efficient with your 400+ members. Your control is better.

Yet you did not disprove me with this at all.

You know how you could pull that off? If you would find a clan with less than 100 members in the top 10.

Then i would be forced to acknowledge that quality can take it up with quantity.

 

Fact is. The system does not work like that, and as i have said above: this wont change much when you have hundreds members. Even if you dont give a damn about directing your clan at all, you will still score in the top 100 merely because of the sheer amount of people you are housing.

Edited May 10, 2013 by Aerensiniac

[Wellthen]

 

The reality is that the number of members will always prevail against small clans.

I don't understand how you can say this when the number of members for each clan is not recorded in a consistent public place with automated updating and verification for accuracy.

 

On top of that, Warbros could be called a "small clan" when compared to Warframe Japan, and yet they clearly did prevail against superior numbers, and by a huge margin at that.

[Aerensiniac]

I don't understand how you can say this when the number of members for each clan is not recorded in a consistent public place with automated updating and verification for accuracy.

 

On top of that, Warbros could be called a "small clan" when compared to Warframe Japan, and yet they clearly did prevail against superior numbers, and by a huge margin at that.

I have answered this point twice in the post above.

I also dont really understand your first point. What are you getting at? That we have no accurate tracking method of the amount of members in each clan?

 

Well, you got me there.

I do assume that each of the top 10 house 100+ members.

As i said in the above post, feel free to prove me wrong. If there is a clan with less than 100 members in the top 10, then i have no choice but to admit that you are right and quality can take it up with quantity. Even if its only as long as there are clans with a lack of leadership as warbros's and warframe japan's example shows.

Edited May 10, 2013 by Aerensiniac

[Wellthen]

Well, you got me there.

I do assume that each of the top 10 house 100+ members.

 

As i said in the above post, feel free to prove me wrong. If there is a clan with less than 100 members in the top 10, then i have no choice but to admit that you are right and quality can take it up with quantity. Even if its only as long as there are clans with a lack of leadership as warbros's and warframe japan's example shows.

But you just proved yourself wrong for me. You assumed. You don't have any hard numbers or data. You're making up conclusions to support your initial belief that only big clans could place highly, and you keep moving your goal posts further and further as you get shown how badly misinformed you are.

 

I told you earlier in the thread to provide some proof on your earlier claims, and you didn't. You posted three google results, none of which satisfied the question being asked, and that was only for one clan. You didn't show a single thing about the other clans you accused of mass-inviting, yet you seem to treat that idea as fact when you just said you assumed it all anyway.

 

Why don't you show us the clan numbers, with sources to back those numbers up?

[Aerensiniac]

But you just proved yourself wrong for me. You assumed. You don't have any hard numbers or data. You're making up conclusions to support your initial belief that only big clans could place highly, and you keep moving your goal posts further and further as you get shown how badly misinformed you are.

 

I told you earlier in the thread to provide some proof on your earlier claims, and you didn't. You posted three google results, none of which satisfied the question being asked, and that was only for one clan. You didn't show a single thing about the other clans you accused of mass-inviting, yet you seem to treat that idea as fact when you just said you assumed it all anyway.

 

Why don't you show us the clan numbers, with sources to back those numbers up?

Jesus... dont do this to me will you... im allergic to double standards.

You are calling me out on my reasoning just so you can do the exact same reasoning in the opposite direction.

Tell me. What makes YOU assume that there is a clan with less than 100 members in the top 10? Why don't YOU show us the clan numbers, with sources to back those numbers up?

 

I know the numbers of 3 clans. No. 7 has currently ~250. I find it reasonable the 8, 9 and 10 wont drop 150 members all of a sudden.

That being said, im all open to being proven wrong, yet i do not think that i am.

Edited May 10, 2013 by Aerensiniac

[bjerne]

Jesus... dont do this to me will you... im allergic to double standards.

You are calling me out on my reasoning just so you can do the exact same reasoning in the opposite direction.

Tell me. What makes YOU assume that there is a clan with less than 100 members in the top 10? Why don't YOU show us the clan numbers, with sources to back those numbers up?

 

I know the numbers of 3 clans. Feel free to prove me wrong on the rest.

Tell us these numbers.

[Painmak3r]

ok

[Wellthen]

Jesus... dont do this to me will you... im allergic to double standards.

You are calling me out on my reasoning just so you can do the exact same reasoning in the opposite direction.

Tell me. What makes YOU assume that there is a clan with less than 100 members in the top 10? Why don't YOU show us the clan numbers, with sources to back those numbers up?

 

I know the numbers of 3 clans. No. 7 has currently ~250. I find it reasonable the 8, 9 and 10 wont drop 150 members all of a sudden.

That being said, im all open to being proven wrong, yet i do not think that i am.

I haven't said the top 10 clans are under 100 members. You have made the only claims to size here, and as you said, you assumed. You didn't take actual figures into account, you made a rough guess and are trying to run with it. I am asking you to prove your claims. I am not making any counterclaim, I am simply calling on you to support what you have tried to state as fact.

[Derpius]

And yet once again: You are a refreshing exception.

I also welcome you to disprove me on the remaining 9 clans.

Its no trolling, its no toying. I am part of one of the top 10 too and i have browsed through the first top 20 when i was making my choice on who to join. As a conclusion i do know that most of them barely have (if any) filtering on player influx.

 

That being said, even if 10/10 had a tight control on inviting, we would be still facing the same problem:

Top 10 will continue to grow with each successful event, making creating new clans obsolete on the long run.

The only thing that forces clans to filter members is when they have a cap on the amount they can hold. Cause THEN you see it would matter who you invite and whether or not the specific person contributes towards the clan or not.

 

We are not part of those clan, we do not claim to understand how they work or their policies. The burden of proof is on you to provide the evidence that they recruit everyone and that is somehow detrimental to them as a clan and they should have their efforts invalidated.

[Aerensiniac]

Tell us these numbers.

I've just asked. no.7 has exactly 308 members at present. Growing by more than 50 since the event.

Warbros last counter from 1 month ago was at 401. Safe to say they are at 400+ currently

Multiple warbros members reported having less members than Wf japan, which leaves us with the conclusion that they are above 400 as well.

Well. Not that any of this matters unless you can confirm me a clan with less than a hundred members in top 10.

 

P.S. With more than 20% growth on Gryphus, i consider myself proven on the point that the top 10 will keep on growing with each successful event by the means of free advertisement.

Edited May 10, 2013 by Aerensiniac

[Sanev_Khan]

I've just asked. no.7 has exactly 308 members at present. Growing more than 50 since the event.

Warbros last counter from 1 month ago was at 401. Safe to say they are at 400+ currently

Multiple warbros members reported having less members than Wf japan, which leaves us with the conclusion that they are above 400 as well.

 

Well. Not that any of this matters unless you can confirm me a clan with less than a hundred members in top 10.

 

So,  your 3 numbers became one accurate and two guesstimates.

[Wellthen]

I've just asked. no.7 has exactly 308 members at present. Growing by more than 50 since the event.

Warbros last counter from 1 month ago was at 401. Safe to say they are at 400+ currently

Multiple warbros members reported having less members than Wf japan, which leaves us with the conclusion that they are above 400 as well.

Well. Not that any of this matters unless you can confirm me a clan with less than a hundred members in top 10.

 

P.S. With more than 20% growth on Gryphus, i consider myself proven on the point that the top 10 will keep on growing with each successful event by the means of free advertisement.

 

Here, I've made an easy comparison for you. This is straight from the leaderboard thread, so you can check it for accuracy.

TOP CLANS:

1. Warbros 37582

2. Warframe Japan 22265

3. Test Clan Please Ignore 15996

4. JAPANINJA 11558

5. Blackmist 10939

6. TW 10811

7. Gryphus Tech Corporation Warframe 9283

8. The Celestial Shogunate 7962

9. WiK 7401

10. boobs 7365

TOP TENNO:

1. Kahruvel 2666

2. Benston 1404

3. Tram 1343

4. DeLun_Gabriel 1205

5. AceViper 1205

6. Sc4rL3TBuLL3T 1102

7. ConstantEgo 1079

8. attenburo 1067

9. Kiry 1060

10. swooshbear 1049

Now, the sum of the top 10 players' kills is 13,180. That is higher than all but 3 of the clans involved. Therefore, you could, theoretically, have a clan that had 10 people and placed 4th. Add the next 3 highest scoring players into that single clan and they'd be in 3rd with 13 members.

As you can see, your assumption that a clan HAS TO be big to place in the top 10 is absolute rubbish and supported by nothing. You continue to try to use single tidbits of 2nd-hand info to allude to a "trend" that you cannot prove exists.

[Aerensiniac]

So,  your 3 numbers became one accurate and two guesstimates.

We have drawn the line at 100. There was no guesstimates since all 3 are by far above that number.

 

 

Here, I've made an easy comparison for you. This is straight from the leaderboard thread, so you can check it for accuracy.

TOP CLANS:

1. Warbros 37582

2. Warframe Japan 22265

3. Test Clan Please Ignore 15996

4. JAPANINJA 11558

5. Blackmist 10939

6. TW 10811

7. Gryphus Tech Corporation Warframe 9283

8. The Celestial Shogunate 7962

9. WiK 7401

10. boobs 7365

TOP TENNO:

1. Kahruvel 2666

2. Benston 1404

3. Tram 1343

4. DeLun_Gabriel 1205

5. AceViper 1205

6. Sc4rL3TBuLL3T 1102

7. ConstantEgo 1079

8. attenburo 1067

9. Kiry 1060

10. swooshbear 1049

Now, the sum of the top 10 players' kills is 13,180. That is higher than all but 3 of the clans involved. Therefore, you could, theoretically, have a clan that had 10 people and placed 4th. Add the next 3 highest scoring players into that single clan and they'd be in 3rd with 13 members.

As you can see, your assumption that a clan HAS TO be big to place in the top 10 is absolute rubbish and supported by nothing. You continue to try to use single tidbits of 2nd-hand info to allude to a "trend" that you cannot prove exists.

Rational, good post. +1

That being said, i think we have reached the end of the line.

Unless we get a member of the other 7 clans telling us the exact member standing, we wont get from 1 to 2. I stick to theory that there are only 100+ clans in top 10, and No.7 being on 300 bolsters this.

Opposition says that this is still only estimates and guess work.

 

Cant really add anything more at this point.

Edited May 10, 2013 by Aerensiniac

[liavalenth]

...

Now, the sum of the top 10 players' kills is 13,180. That is higher than all but 3 of the clans involved. Therefore, you could, theoretically, have a clan that had 10 people and placed 4th. Add the next 3 highest scoring players into that single clan and they'd be in 3rd with 13 members.

As you can see, your assumption that a clan HAS TO be big to place in the top 10 is absolute rubbish and supported by nothing. You continue to try to use single tidbits of 2nd-hand info to allude to a "trend" that you cannot prove exists.

A very good point. You are correct that this is theoretically possible. However, something being possible does not dismiss the trend that all top 10 guilds had 100+ members.

[Aerensiniac]

A very good point. You are correct that this is theoretically possible. However, something being possible does not dismiss the trend that all top 10 guilds had 100+ members.

Pretty much my opinion too, but he is right with the theory. It is possible, even if unlikely.

Alas, based on this, we will now go in circles endlessly unless someone can confirm the actual numbers for all top 10.

Edited May 10, 2013 by Aerensiniac

[Wellthen]

A very good point. You are correct that this is theoretically possible. However, something being possible does not dismiss the trend that all top 10 guilds had 100+ members.

You cannot have a trend without data. Assumptions are not data.

 

 

 

 

Pretty much my opinion too, but he is right with the theory. It is possible, even if unlikely.

Alas, based on this, we will now go in circles endlessly unless someone can confirm the actual numbers for all top 10.

That was exactly why I was calling on you to prove your claims. Since you can't, the only option is to agree that, with the current data available, it is not strictly necessary to have a large clan in order to place on the clan leaderboards.

Edited May 10, 2013 by Wellthen

[Ced23Ric]

Seems like a good conclusion from both sides to me.

[Kordy]

I'm sorry Cedric but what. There's no good conclusions anywhere. So far, everything Aerensiniac said got shot down, OP resorted to PM'ing a DE employee to lock the thread to save face. That ain't a good conclusion.

There's no trend to show that every clan in top 10 is mass inviting, it's just the OP doing damage control and Aerensiniac moving goalposts to 'prove his claims', btw.

[Aerensiniac]

You cannot have a trend without data. Assumptions are not data.

 

That was exactly why I was calling on you to prove your claims. Since you can't, the only option is to agree that, with the current data available, it is not strictly necessary to have a large clan in order to place on the clan leaderboards.

Please quit exaggerating, will you? The lowest known nominator at position 7 has 300 members, then highest has 400+, and following at place 3 also 400+.

If you do not see a trend, then that is telling only for you and those who have voted you up, but hey, playing stupid to make an argument is always the easiest way, right?

 

I have given you the benefit of the doubt. You are using it to strawman and troll. Good job mate. Keep it up.

Edited May 10, 2013 by Aerensiniac