Excalibur: An Alternate Take And Proposal On His Upcoming Rework.

[Ronyn]

Hmmmmm, I really like that Exceed ability. However, I would love for Excalibur to get the Hysteria-ish ability. 

 

Can we just screw Radial Javelin? Just let the poor ability die, it has had a nice run but that Exceed ability would give Excalibur the "versatility" to be more than just a melee frame. 

Sorry I somehow missed this one. Let me see here....

I suppose there would be a way to role my defiance idea into having the CC effect of radiance, so then without needing both of those moves Excalibur could still have both his melee mode thing and the Exceed power.

 

EDIT: Alright I put an alternate concept in the OP. Please check it out and let me know what you think.

Edited April 13, 2015 by Ronyn

[r0ckwolf]

Hey Ronyn,

i really like your contributions to the current Excalibur rework, not only in this Thread! ;) 

 

Your main idea of Exceed is something i would disagree with, which probably won´t suprise you since i´m the one who orginally suggested the Energy Sowrd Stnace! xD My main reason being that it´s a somewhat passive buff, sure it would be strong, but drawing his Energy Sword just gives Excalibur some greatly needed identity in my opinion.

 

Your alternate idea (Immanence) sounds great though, i also especially like Defiance as a reworked "Radial Javelin" third Ability, i think that fits great with the overall Swordman Theme and contributes to the afore mentioned identity.

 

Keep it up bro.

 

greetings r0ckwolf

[Ronyn]

Hey Ronyn,

i really like your contributions to the current Excalibur rework, not only in this Thread! ;) 

 

Your main idea of Exceed is something i would disagree with, which probably won´t suprise you since i´m the one who orginally suggested the Energy Sowrd Stnace! xD My main reason being that it´s a somewhat passive buff, sure it would be strong, but drawing his Energy Sword just gives Excalibur some greatly needed identity in my opinion.

 

Your alternate idea (Immanence) sounds great though, i also especially like Defiance as a reworked "Radial Javelin" third Ability, i think that fits great with the overall Swordman Theme and contributes to the afore mentioned identity.

 

Keep it up bro.

 

greetings r0ckwolf

Thanks. We both really care about Excalibur and want him to live up to his potential. :-)

 

IMO Excalibur has two core aspects of his identity that need to be brought out.

The "swordsman", and the "build how you want to". If we capture one but leave out the other we are doing a disservice.

To clarify-Exceed and Immanence aren't mutually exclusive ideas.

That is why in the alternate version both are present. To discuss the alternate further-

Since Excalibur's increased defenses come from his 2 and 3 the non swordsman guys wont feel like they have to be squishy.

Ideally it would allow the "build how you want to" guys to burn their energy on exceed and just not bother with immanence.

Where the folks who want the swordsman can spent energy on immanence to have their energy sword.

That could..theoretically...please both sides of the fence.

 

My persistent concern about an energy sword stance is still the same thing though-lack of choice in melee weapons.

Even just the swordsman concept has some variance in viewpoint.

Some might feel that one type of word is the more iconic warframe sword. Some will say it's the skana, some will say it's the  nikana, some will say it's the galatine..and some just insist that they should be able to go dual blade.

That is the one problem that my initial idea avoids. 

[Rexlars]

If I HAD to choose, I'd just ditch Radial Javelin, make Exceed his #3, make the buff percentage adequate for a #3 move, & still roll with his Hysteria-ish move for his #4. That way, he can still have a buff which would give this intended melee frame the survivability stat-wise that he'll need. 

 

I don't like Defiance simply because I think it's corny. I've never liked seeing swords hovering around people in games, cartoons, anime, etc. I've always thought it looked lame & ridiculous. Just very cheesy. However, in function, it's cool & definitely useful, but it seems to be just a mash-up of Mesa's Shatter Shield & Rhino's Augment Mod Iron Shrapnel. 

 

Overall though, I'd be fine with keeping Radial Javelin or replacing it with Exceed. Either way, I'd prefer DE's original idea in that Hysteria-like move for his #4. Great ideas though. 

[Ronyn]

If I HAD to choose, I'd just ditch Radial Javelin, make Exceed his #3, make the buff percentage adequate for a #3 move, & still roll with his Hysteria-ish move for his #4. That way, he can still have a buff which would give this intended melee frame the survivability stat-wise that he'll need. 

 

Overall though, I'd be fine with keeping Radial Javelin or replacing it with Exceed. Either way, I'd prefer DE's original idea in that Hysteria-like move for his #4. Great ideas though. 

Gotcha. Did you read the alternate version too?

 

I don't like Defiance simply because I think it's corny. I've never liked seeing swords hovering around people in games, cartoons, anime, etc. I've always thought it looked lame & ridiculous. Just very cheesy. 

Taste in visual style is different for each person, fair enough.

 

 However, in function, it's cool & definitely useful, but it seems to be just a mash-up of Mesa's Shatter Shield & Rhino's Augment Mod Iron Shrapnel. 

Yeah....Once a game has been around a while most new powers could be viewed as a mash up of some of the others already there. 

I mean this conversation started because DE was talking about giving Excalibur a move sort of like Hysteria...lol

pretty much everything is going to resemble something else in certain ways. That's OK as long as it's got sort of its own spin on it.

[Rexlars]

Gotcha. Did you read the alternate version too?

 

Taste in visual style is different for each person, fair enough.

 

Didn't know there was one. I just read it & now that I think about it, the second half of Defiance probably won't be too useful for the same reason the original Radial Javelin wasn't; it never hit anyone. The Javelins spawned in a circle around Excal then jettisoned outward. They then changed it after so many complaints that the blades never hit anyone & were constantly intercepted by the terrain, resulting in the current RJ where the swords spawn by the enemy.

 

As for Immanence (I believe that was the name), I like it. Honestly, that's probably very similar to what DE was going to do. It's pretty much what I had in mind.

 

Yeah....Once a game has been around a while most new powers could be viewed as a mash up of some of the others already there. 

I mean this conversation started because DE was talking about giving Excalibur a move sort of like Hysteria...lol

pretty much everything is going to resemble something else in certain ways. That's OK as long as it's got sort of its own spin on it.

 

Touche, there is a degree of truth to this. lol

 

Replies are in red.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Rexlars

[Ronyn]

 

Didn't know there was one. I just read it & now that I think about it, the second half of Defiance probably won't be too useful for the same reason the original Radial Javelin wasn't; it never hit anyone. The Javelins spawned in a circle around Excal then jettisoned outward. They then changed it after so many complaints that the blades never hit anyone & were constantly intercepted by the terrain, resulting in the current RJ where the swords spawn by the enemy.

Ah yes I see what you're saying. Really the whole circle of blades that suddenly shoot outward is just a visual effect concept. 

In function it would make more sense that when triggered the orbiting swords actually sort of disappeared, then reappeared near targets like they do now. 

 

As for Immanence (I believe that was the name), I like it. Honestly, that's probably very similar to what DE was going to do. It's pretty much what I had in mind.

Yep. Pretty much trying to express something along what they described. I added some specific's that I would like to see in it.

The waves going through all targets in line would be pretty sweet.

 

Touche, there is a degree of truth to this. lol

:-)

[ZzVinniezZ]

DE Said his ultimate is somewhat create an energy sword and attack will create wind wave energy slash at the direction of your melee (or perhalf your crosshair?) if so then that should resemble to something like the slash of Flustuc arch-rifle

[Malitias]

Hey, it's me again. No, wait, don't sigh!

 

So I've been thinking a little bit about your concerns and thought that you are mostly right about the hysteria thing in terms of the locked stance issue.

But what if he wouldn't just summon the ethereal sword and be in a hysteria-like stance, but summon an ethereal weapon, depending on which base-type of weapon you currently have? If you have a single-handed sword, he summons a one handed energy sword, if you have a heavy two-handed weapon he'd summon a two-handed energy sword and if you have a Kogake (dunno what the name of the base-type is) your fists and feet would become glowing energy balls. (don't get this the wrong way xP)

 

Edit: And you'd ofc use the weapon stance equipped in your melee weapon

Edited April 14, 2015 by Malitias

[Ronyn]

Hey, it's me again. No, wait, don't sigh!

 

So I've been thinking a little bit about your concerns and thought that you are mostly right about the hysteria thing in terms of the locked stance issue.

But what if he wouldn't just summon the ethereal sword and be in a hysteria-like stance, but summon an ethereal weapon, depending on which base-type of weapon you currently have? If you have a single-handed sword, he summons a one handed energy sword, if you have a heavy two-handed weapon he'd summon a two-handed energy sword and if you have a Kogake (dunno what the name of the base-type is) your fists and feet would become glowing energy balls. (don't get this the wrong way xP)

 

Edit: And you'd ofc use the weapon stance equipped in your melee weapon

I appreciate that idea.

If there is going to be a forced melee weapon mode I think some form of choice in weapon and stance would be far better for player choice.

But sadly if it were to require making multiple new weapon models I don't think DE would want to devote that kind of time/effort into it.

Maybe some sort of special energy effect (similar to channeling) could be applied to whatever weapon was equiped to make the weapon appear to be made of energy......maybe....

[Chroia]

Nice.

Others have said most of what I have to say, already. (Synergy between skills 1,2,3; aiming swordburst an issue.)

 

One thing I'm suprised no one commented on:

4: Exceed: Excalibur focus's energy through his body which increases the positive effects of all equipped mods on his frame and weapons by X percent.

As written, there's nothing stopping me from activating Exceed as nitro-for-guns.

As written, there's nothing stopping me from activating Exceed as a pre-buff to any other ability, then toggling it off.

 

As written, this would affect Efficiency mods, (though those being hard-capped at 75% ought to make that a nonissue... except that it'd also)

affect Corrupted mods (does the malus get increased as well? How does this work with Fleeting? What happens in a 0%-or-less edge case (player has FE, doesn't have any positive duration mods)? Similarly, Overextended and only 0 or 1 positive power strength mod and 0%-or-less Power Strength),

Potentially affect Arcanes (Raid and prior) and auras.

 

Also, Multishot. I imagine an Augmented Hek would like this a lot.

Also also, the crit mods. With Dread sits on 125% with Point Strike, 148% with Critical Delay now.

I'd mention a Tysis and status chance except that there's no mechanic for 'red status', so that ought have no effect.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Chroia

[Ronyn]

 

Nice.

Others have said most of what I have to say, already. (Synergy between skills 1,2,3; aiming swordburst an issue.)

Thanks. Right on.

Synergy is good and sword aim should work like it does in the game now. (I might have to add a clarification in the OP)

 

One thing I'm suprised no one commented on:

I'd say that a few people have commented on Exceeds versatility in the broader sense. They just haven't brought up specific attributes to discuss.

 

As written, there's nothing stopping me from activating Exceed as nitro-for-guns.

Yes indeed. Being able to use Exceed as Nitro for guns is very much intended. Excalibur may be a swordsman, but he isn't JUST a swordsman. He is also a frame meant to work with multiple playstyles.

The versatility provided by Exceed is primarily how Excalibur fulfills the part of his official description video that says-

"Excalibur can be modified to suit nearly any play-style. Utilizing crit and damage mods he can become a deadly weapon. With shield health and armor mods he can become an agent of distraction. Or a reconnaissance scout built for speed and agility. Stamina and sprint mods will help him lead the team to battle. There are a vast arsenal of weapons available for Excalibur, choose from any as he is suited for many types of combat"

 

In comparison there are other frames who can increase their weapons output already.

Volt can increase gun damage to high levels by firing through multiple electric shields.

Chroma can increase his weapon damage output with vex Armor by something like 500 percent. heh.

Excalibur being able to double his damage output is still not going to match up with what some of the other frames can do.

 

As written, there's nothing stopping me from activating Exceed as a pre-buff to any other ability, then toggling it off.

Yes, mostly...though he looses whatever bonus a power would gain or has gained from Exceed once Exceed is toggled off.

 

Exceed does of course have an energy cost though so it's essentially being able to pay more energy to make powers better. In that sense it's sort of like a blind rage mod. Or one could view at as a lot like when ember uses accelerant to increase the effect of all of her other powers. Or when someone uses one of those augments that adds elemental damage to all of your attacks...except he is doing it to himself and it's more flexible than just damage.

 

 

 

As written, this would affect Efficiency mods, (though those being hard-capped at 75% ought to make that a nonissue... except that it'd also)

affect Corrupted mods (does the malus get increased as well? How does this work with Fleeting? What happens in a 0%-or-less edge case (player has FE, doesn't have any positive duration mods)? Similarly, Overextended and only 0 or 1 positive power strength mod and 0%-or-less Power Strength),

Potentially affect Arcanes (Raid and prior) and auras.

 

Also, Multishot. I imagine an Augmented Hek would like this a lot.

Also also, the crit mods. With Dread sits on 125% with Point Strike, 148% with Critical Delay now.

I'd mention a Tysis and status chance except that there's no mechanic for 'red status', so that ought have no effect.

Indeed there are lot's of specifics to look at. As it says in the OP-

 

4: Exceed: Excalibur focus's energy through his body which increases the positive effects of all equipped mods on his frame and weapons by X percent. This has an energy cost of Y per second and is a toggle ability that can be canceled any time by pressing the command again. Activating it is a one handed action.
Example: For simplicity sake I will act as though Exceed increases the effectiveness of equiped mods by 100 percent. That number is just for illistration, real numbers are decided in testing. Ok so if you have a maxed redirection mod slotted it raises shields by 440 percent. During Exceed mode it will raise shields by 880 percent. Likewise if you have fury slotted in your melee weapon the speed boost will go from 30 percent to 60 percent. Imagine how that would play out with different builds!
This is the key to a player being able to truly choose what kind of frame he will be.
Disclaimer: Again I chose the 100 percent increase for simplicity sake. If some other percentage, 90, 80,50 or whatever is better that is fine. A few attributes might even need some caps to make sure this is well balanced. As not all attributes are equal in practice.

-Needing caps is pretty straight forward. Some stuff should simply not be left unchecked.

I chose only positive effects because dealing with amplified negative effects could be unpredictable to build for and even potentially just cancel each other out to some degree in some cases. I figure if you're going to spend energy  to improve your powers it shouldn't come with a negative.

Though I admit that having a negative effect is an interesting thing to consider..... 

Edited April 14, 2015 by Ronyn

[Chroia]

'Exceed and guns' - Alrighty, just verifying that that's intended.

'Exceed and abilities' - I don't think that running abilities update on the fly, so :/  -  but can't easily test.

'Positive effects' - bleh, missed that.

 

Cool beans. Have my +1.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Chroia

[Ronyn]

'Exceed and abilities' - I don't think that running abilities update on the fly, so :/  -  but can't easily test.

Ah Ok so then if powers don't update mid use.... the result would be that Excalibur could activate Exceed, then use Defiance or Immanence (if referring to the alt version), turn off Exceed, and still have defiance and/immanence remain powered up.

 

Assuming that is the case, do you feel that would be problematic?

I'm going to have to ponder on it a while myself.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Ronyn

[Zeirem]

Hi guys

I bring you a slightly different take on the upcoming Excalibur rework.

First please look at Excalibur's current pages description and video.

https://warframe.com/game/warframes?id=Excalibur

And of course consider Excalibur's current conundrum.

As the game has changed some of Excalibur's powers and attributes have fallen either behind the curve or become somewhat obsolete. A perfect example is how the core mobility of the game. When Excalibur was first made there was no wall running and there was no aerial melee. This has changed the importance of super jump. In the coming months we will receive Movement 2.0 which will give us a "charge jump" that will act similarly to superjump. This will render super jump more obsolete than it is now because all warframes will access to something quite similar to it. He needs all of his powers to remain relevant in the new landscape of warframe.

Moreover there are many reasons to expect Excalibur to be able to excel in melee combat considering he is named after a famous sword, he has sword based powers and he is shown in many trailers wielding a sword to great effect. Sadly at this time Excalibur lacks the ability to excel in melee combat overall. There are many ways to improve his melee capability. Other frames in the game have shown multiple ways for it to work like loki's invisibility, Volt's shocking speed, Chroma's Vex armor, and of course Valkyr;s hysteria. Most recently DE has suggested they the current path is to go with a full on melee mode where Excalibur draws a sword of energy and fights with it as it sends out energy waves. For some this is a wonderful expression of how they view Excalibur, for others this is viewed as limiting and a departure from Excalibur as they know him.

The complication there is coming from is a schism in the community over what Excalibur is, what he is intended to be and/or what he "should" be. Some suggest he is a "generalist or jack of all trades", Others suggest he is a "melee frame or a swordsman". I propose that we don't actually have to choose just one or the other.

The trick is give him the capacity to play as people make him. Avoid locking him into anything, instead set him free to be what we make him.

Now let us look at my ideas. (and don't miss the alternate version in the spoiler at the end!)

My goal here is to provide a version of Excalibur that combines the two major viewpoints on what he should be.

Effectively allowing him to be viewed as an incredible melee frame OR as more of a generalist based on the players build. Additionally I am attempting to add some synergy to his powers so they work best in combination with each other. Most of what I suggest is similar to what was talked about on the last devstream. Though there are some notable differences and some fancy names. I've taken a lot of inspiration from the various good ideas floating around on the boards. Please read on-

Base Stats-I don't want to spend too much time on this part but I recommend that Excalibur get a far better armor rating than he has now. It helps a lot with many melee focused builds. I'll leave it at that.

1: Severance: Excalibur surges forward with his energy sword in hand, slashing at every enemy within the cone of effect. This will cause a guaranteed slash proc on all enemies hit.

2: Radiance: Excalibur raises his energy sword and emits a flash of blinding light. All enemies in range will be blinded for a few seconds. Any attack on them during the stun will count as finisher damage therefore bypassing shields and armor that way all manner of attacks will be benefited from this action. Excalibur can continue moving while he casts this power.

3: Defiance: Excalibur summons multiple energy swords that orbit around his body in a vertical position. They intercept all incoming projectiles reducing the damage he takes by X percent and lasts for Y seconds. Upon pressing the button again the swords fly outward in all directions skewering all enemies nearby potentially impaling them to walls. This attack does puncture damage with a guaranteed puncture proc. Any enemies currently under a slash proc will take additional damage from it. making it wise to combo into after Severance.

The initial cast of Defiance will be a one handed action. However the act of sending the swords outward in all directions will come with an animation where Excalibur sticks an energy sword into the ground.

4: Exceed: Excalibur focus's energy through his body which increases the positive effects of all equipped mods on his frame and weapons by X percent. This has an energy cost of Y per second and is a toggle ability that can be canceled any time by pressing the command again. Activating it is a one handed action.

Example: For simplicity sake I will act as though Exceed increases the effectiveness of equiped mods by 100 percent. That number is just for illistration, real numbers are decided in testing. Ok so if you have a maxed redirection mod slotted it raises shields by 440 percent. During Exceed mode it will raise shields by 880 percent. Likewise if you have fury slotted in your melee weapon the speed boost will go from 30 percent to 60 percent. Imagine how that would play out with different builds!

This is the key to a player being able to truly choose what kind of frame he will be.

Disclaimer: Again I chose the 100 percent increase for simplicity sake. If some other percentage, 90, 80,50 or whatever is better that is fine. A few attributes might even need some caps to make sure this is well balanced. As not all attributes are equal in practice.

Note: According to recent devstreams we know that there are two changes coming to the game that will act somewhat differently during Exceed mode.

When Charge jump is added to the game Excalibur will jump twice as high during Exceed mode.

When Charge melee attacks are added back to the game Excalibur will send out an energy wave from every charged swing during Exceed mode.

---------------------------------------------------

Alright, time for questions and feedback. This is my first draft of this concept so I welcome ways to sharpen it up. Party on Tenno.

EDIT on 4/12: I re-worded a few sentences in Exceed to increase clarity at first glance.

EDIT on 4/13: I added in an alternate version of my idea for those who REALLY want Excalibur to get a "sword mode" ult.

You'll find it in the spoiler below.

 

Here is an alternate version of my idea for those who really, REALLY want Excalibur to get a "sword mode" ult.

I have rolled radiance's effects into the defiance power to make room fora new power called Immanence.

Please read on.

 

Base Stats-I don't want to spend too much time on this part but I recommend that Excalibur get a far better armor rating than he has now. It helps a lot with many melee focused builds. I'll leave it at that.

1: Severance: Excalibur surges forward with his energy sword in hand, slashing at every enemy within the cone of effect. This will cause a guaranteed slash proc on all enemies hit.

2: Defiance: Excalibur summons multiple energy swords that orbit around his body in a vertical position. They intercept all incoming projectiles reducing the damage he takes by X percent and lasts for Y seconds. Upon pressing the button again, Excalibur raises his energy sword up and the circling swords fly outward in all directions. All enemies hit by a sword will be left in a "prone" state for a Z seconds. Any attack on them during that time will count as finisher damage therefore bypassing shields and armor that way all manner of attacks will be benefited from this action.  Any enemies currently under a slash proc will also take damage from this power. Making it wise to combo into after Severance. Both the initial cast and the releasing cast of Defiance will be a one handed action.

3: Exceed: Excalibur focus's energy through his body which increases the positive effects of all equipped mods on his frame and weapons by X percent. This has an energy cost of Y per second and is a toggle ability that can be canceled any time by pressing the command again. Activating it is a one handed action.

Example: For simplicity sake I will act as though Exceed increases the effectiveness of equipped mods by 100 percent. That number is just for illistration, real numbers are decided in testing. Ok so if you have a maxed redirection mod slotted it raises shields by 440 percent. During Exceed mode it will raise shields by 880 percent. Likewise if you have fury slotted in your melee weapon the speed boost will go from 30 percent to 60 percent. Imagine how that would play out with different builds!

This is the key to a player being able to truly choose what kind of frame he will be.

Disclaimer: Again I chose the 100 percent increase for simplicity sake. If some other percentage, 90, 80,50 or whatever is better that is fine. A few attributes might even need some caps to make sure this is well balanced. As not all attributes are equal in practice.

Note: According to recent devstreams we know that a charged jump will be coming to Warframe.

When Charge jump is added to the game Excalibur will jump twice as high during Exceed mode.

 

4: Immanence: Excalibur creates his energy sword in his hand and will wield it like a melee weapon. This will last for X seconds. It has it's own unique stance and animations. Every swing of this sword releases a wave of energy that flies out Y meters from the blade and does Z damage on the targets it hit's.

These waves will go out their full distance striking any and all enemies in the line. This power is calculated based on power strength, it's width is effected by range mods, and it's distance traveled is effected by duration mods. Additionally the energy waves will take on the elemental property of Excalibur's currently equipped melee weapon.  

 

There you go. :-)

 

 

I gotta admit...these are the best ideas I've read so far for Excalibur (way better than DE's changes). I would be satisfied with either of the reworks you proposed here. These would definitely make Excalibur live up to his namesake too, which only adds to his cool factor.

 

This post needs to be brought to DE's attention like immediately lol. Really good stuff here.

Edited April 23, 2015 by Zeirem

[WolvenEdge]

Uhm... slight problem with Excalibur's video being a reference; it's way, way outdated. It states that critical chance mods go on the WarFrame, they don't, and haven't for a long time. They practically outright state that certain warframes are/were limited to certain weapons; such is not the case any more, and again hasn't been for a long time. Taking into account the changes that removed things like that, every frame can be a generalist from their loadout, rather than they themselves.

 

We come to the same issue as before; he and his description are outdated, and DE is moving toward making him fit a theme... unless you want Volt and Mag nerfed to Excal's current level so that they fit the 'starter/tutorial babyframe' model as well. -w- That's really my only peeve with this way of looking at this.

 

Past that... how does this really make him special? It's a lovely boost, yes, but how does it make him stand out as his own frame? Still, I love the ideas, I just wish that his actual theme, one that still remains in light of the game's development since that video, was better taken into account in threads and ideas like this.

[Ronyn]

Uhm... slight problem with Excalibur's video being a reference; it's way, way outdated.

That isn't a problem. The point of showing the old flavor text and video is to indicate the original intention of Excalibur as described by DE. Reality is that things often don't function in practice as they were meant to and the nature of a persistent game world is that big change happens over time...but the old stuff, despite being outdated in the specifics, is a showcase of the original intention and that has value when looking forward. Particularly considering we are talking about a frame that a lot of people have favored for a long time based on his original design.

 

It is my belief that we can have both the old and the new simultaneously.

 

DE is moving toward making him fit a theme... unless you want Volt and Mag nerfed to Excal's current level so that they fit the 'starter/tutorial babyframe' model as well. -w- That's really my only peeve with this way of looking at this.

You lost me here.

Starter frame doesn't indicate a lower level of potential end game effectiveness.  All "starter frame" indicates is that the frame is relatively straight forward to use (not a lot of strange nuances to use effectively) so it acts as a decent introduction to how warframes work. "Starter frame" is not a theme or playstyle in itself nor is being a starter frame mutually exclusive from having a specific theme or playstyle.   Excalibur, Volt and Mag (at one time loki) are all starter starter frames but they each have their own very different playstyles and themes. Those four frames have little to nothing in common with each other besides all being starter frames at one point or another.

 

To be clear-Excalibur has always had a unique theme and playstyle as far as many of us are concerned. 

 

Past that... how does this really make him special? It's a lovely boost, yes, but how does it make him stand out as his own frame? Still, I love the ideas, I just wish that his actual theme, one that still remains in light of the game's development since that video, was better taken into account in threads and ideas like this.

To be honest I feel like what makes him special and how his theme is taken into account is quite clear in the ideas.

I'm hesitant to try to explain it any further because I am unconvinced that I can word it in any way better than I already have so if you don't agree you don't agree. But I'll try to dig into it some more.

 

Excalibur's original intended theme is largely exemplified by the sentences in the beginning and ending of the video-

 

"With a balance of mobility and offensive capability Excalibur is the perfect gateway into the incredible power of the warframes. Excalibur has uniquely balanced powers for offensive and defensive engagements."

"Excalibur can be modified to suit nearly any play-style. Utilizing crit and damage mods he can become a deadly weapon. With shield health and armor mods he can become an agent of distraction. Or a reconnaissance scout built for speed and agility. Stamina and sprint mods will help him lead the team to battle. There are a vast arsenal of weapons available for Excalibur, choose from any as he is suited for many types of combat"

 

The versatility provided by Exceed is the cornerstone of how Excalibur fulfills those parts of his official description video. He can actually BE those different things, actually take on those different roles, based on how he is built. In general, just having certain base stats and slotting certain mods aren't enough to effectively play a wide variety of roles. This is because of how powers, base stats, and mods usually interact in a way that will still limit a frame to their selected list of specialties.

 

Example: Chroma was intentionally designed to be one of the most versatile frames in the game. However his powers are primarily limited to increasing the attributes of offense and defense in various ways.  He has no way to actually increase his movement speed beyond the basics.

Yet Exceed offers way's to increase offense, defense, AND speed. A rush mod when amplified by exceed will allow Excalibur to become the second fastest runner in the game (only eclipsed by volt with speed on). Which is another goal here. To allow Excalibur to be particularly versatile based on his build but not to the point where he can overtake anyone else's specialty regardless of his build. 

 

In addition to Exceed Excalibur would have Radiance (makes all types of attacks effective against all types of enemies) to essentially act as a sort of skeleton key for any enemies weakness. AND defiance, which improves his defense against ranged enemies so he can either fight at range with an edge or close distance on ranged enemies without getting shot to death. Two powers that feed into the core ideal of versatility. 

 

That versatility is a large part of Excalibur's original identity. I see no reason why that cannot be retained going forward.

In addition to the versatile-build-how-you-want-to-frame we have the swordsman aspect of Excalibur.

Which was always evident to some degree in the aesthetic of his powers.

And that is exemplified through Severance, and the second activation of Defiance. (we still see his unique sword model)

Let's not forget that Exceed can help a player be the close range swordsman if they have built for it.

And I still want the energy waves from the sword to stay in some form. Only as charge attacks during Exceed instead of every strike during a sword locked mode. (we still have the energy waves) Even Ichigo usually doesn't rapid fire them! lol

 

Here is my question-

Is it your view that Excalibur ONLY gains the "Swordsman" theme/identity if he gets straight up locked into a sword mode.....

even if he has every other piece of the puzzle?

Edited April 15, 2015 by Ronyn

[r0ckwolf]

Thanks. We both really care about Excalibur and want him to live up to his potential. :-)

 

IMO Excalibur has two core aspects of his identity that need to be brought out.

The "swordsman", and the "build how you want to". If we capture one but leave out the other we are doing a disservice.

To clarify-Exceed and Immanence aren't mutually exclusive ideas.

That is why in the alternate version both are present. To discuss the alternate further-

Since Excalibur's increased defenses come from his 2 and 3 the non swordsman guys wont feel like they have to be squishy.

Ideally it would allow the "build how you want to" guys to burn their energy on exceed and just not bother with immanence.

Where the folks who want the swordsman can spent energy on immanence to have their energy sword.

That could..theoretically...please both sides of the fence.

 

My persistent concern about an energy sword stance is still the same thing though-lack of choice in melee weapons.

Even just the swordsman concept has some variance in viewpoint.

Some might feel that one type of word is the more iconic warframe sword. Some will say it's the skana, some will say it's the  nikana, some will say it's the galatine..and some just insist that they should be able to go dual blade.

That is the one problem that my initial idea avoids. 

I realize that the Powers aren´t exclusive to each other and i can see where you were going with Exceed (giving the "build how you want" guys a lot of options), but i have come to realize that those purely passive buffs don´t feel rewarding to use as Abilitys, at least for me and most of the People i talked too. Would it be strong? Hell Yes! But i think with an Ability such as this your playing the "meta game" to much, if you know what i mean?!

 

The Energy Sword Stance is something everyone instantly understands and can enjoy, it´s a standalone Power/Feature that you´ll just have to play with instead of planning around it to make the most of. 

 

Don´t misunderstand me, i´m not trying to trash your idea, i simply realized for myself when comparing these sorts of Abilitys with each other in game, that i´m just having more fun with Abilitys that change the way i play, instead of simply amplifying certain traits.

 

The issue with choice of melee i can understand, but is that really a valid counter argument to not implement the Power? I mean Mesa also has two specific Guns and Valkyr has her Claws. Does everybody like these specific Weapons the same way? Probably not! But i´d still argue that both of these Weapons are defining design traits that serve to give identity to the Frame and as a set up for a great Power.

That´s where my idea with the Energy Sword was coming from and i honestly don´t think that some People may not liking the design of the Sword are justification enough to not implement such a Power. 

 

Hell... i might even end up not liking the Sword! I haven´t seen it yet, so what do i know! ;)

Edited April 15, 2015 by r0ckwolf

[Ronyn]

I realize that the Powers aren´t exclusive to each other and i can see where you were going with Exceed (giving the "build how you want" guys a lot of options), but i have come to realize that those purely passive buffs don´t feel rewarding to use as Abilitys, at least for me and most of the People i talked too. Would it be strong? Hell Yes! But i think with an Ability such as this your playing the "meta game" to much, if you know what i mean?!

 

Don´t misunderstand me, i´m not trying to trash your idea, i simply realized for myself when comparing these sorts of Abilitys with each other in game, that i´m just having more fun with Abilitys that change the way i play, instead of simply amplifying certain traits.

I understand where you are coming from.

Though I have to challenge the argument here because I'd say that the line between a "purely passive ability that amplifies traits" and an ability that "can change the way one plays" is far from a clear one.

 

One could say that Volts speed power is simply a passive amplification to his movement and melee speed. Technically it is.

But in practice it allows him to play as a high speed striker or scout frame. Which is quite different than how he is without speed on.

One could say that Chroma's Vex Armor power is simply a passive amplification to his Offense and defense capability. Technically it is. But in practice it allows him to play as a heavy hitting front line tank against high level enemies. Which is quite different than how he is without Vex Armor on.

 

Also worth noting that to perform some tasks/roles a particularly high stat in something might be required.

And it is often not wise to let that stat be the frames base stat. Often it is better to require that the frame spend energy to achieve it. 

Should volt's base speed be as fast as he can get with speed on? 

Should Chroma's base armor and weapon damage be what it is when Vex armor is active?

I'd say that achieving those kinds of stats should definitely require spending some energy.

 

Moreover I don't think "playing the metagame too much" is a fair classification for what Exceed is.

Exceed is much more straight forward and intuitive than that. Let me put it like this-

Why do people slot shields, health and armor mods? Because they want to be sturdy. So slot that because that is what you want.

Turn on exceed and you are even more tough. It simply gives you more of what you already wanted. It's very to the point.

Yet can have a big impact on what one is capable of doing effectively.

 

And last but not least-in the OP it explains that the player can send out an energy wave from charged melee attacks while Exceed is active. It's not as though that isn't a distinct change in how something works beyond simply stat amplification.

 

The Energy Sword Stance is something everyone instantly understands and can enjoy, it´s a standalone Power/Feature that you´ll just have to play with instead of planning around it to make the most of. 

Indeed an energy sword stance is something that is instantly clear and enjoyable for those who like that sort of thing.

But let's not oversell it. It's not as if the sword stance would be immune to the basic meta of warframe.

Just about every power/feature on a warframe is something that must be planned around to get the most out of.

There are almost ALWAYS the question of whether a power works better with duration, strength, or range mods, and if it scales off of a melee weapon then what you're holding has to be taken into account....

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Something I want to make clear again. 

I want you to remember that Exceed and a sword stance are not mutually exclusive ideas. (and what that means)

Note: yes I noticed you acknowledged that they aren't mutually exclusive. But you're making comparisons between them as if they were. 

They do not have to be in direct competition with each other. It is not necessarily a matter of having one or the other. 

Our ideas do not have to be in competition with each other. As you know in my alternate proposal both powers are present.

 

EDIT on 4/13: I added in an alternate version of my idea for those who REALLY want Excalibur to get a "sword mode" ult.

You'll find it in the spoiler below.

 

Here is an alternate version of my idea for those who really, REALLY want Excalibur to get a "sword mode" ult.

I have rolled radiance's effects into the defiance power to make room fora new power called Immanence.

Please read on.

 

Base Stats-I don't want to spend too much time on this part but I recommend that Excalibur get a far better armor rating than he has now. It helps a lot with many melee focused builds. I'll leave it at that.

1: Severance: Excalibur surges forward with his energy sword in hand, slashing at every enemy within the cone of effect. This will cause a guaranteed slash proc on all enemies hit.

2: Defiance: Excalibur summons multiple energy swords that orbit around his body in a vertical position. They intercept all incoming projectiles reducing the damage he takes by X percent and lasts for Y seconds. Upon pressing the button again, Excalibur raises his energy sword up and the circling swords fly outward in all directions. All enemies hit by a sword will be left in a "prone" state for a Z seconds. Any attack on them during that time will count as finisher damage therefore bypassing shields and armor that way all manner of attacks will be benefited from this action.  Any enemies currently under a slash proc will also take damage from this power. Making it wise to combo into after Severance. Both the initial cast and the releasing cast of Defiance will be a one handed action.

3: Exceed: Excalibur focus's energy through his body which increases the positive effects of all equipped mods on his frame and weapons by X percent. This has an energy cost of Y per second and is a toggle ability that can be canceled any time by pressing the command again. Activating it is a one handed action.

Example: For simplicity sake I will act as though Exceed increases the effectiveness of equipped mods by 100 percent. That number is just for illistration, real numbers are decided in testing. Ok so if you have a maxed redirection mod slotted it raises shields by 440 percent. During Exceed mode it will raise shields by 880 percent. Likewise if you have fury slotted in your melee weapon the speed boost will go from 30 percent to 60 percent. Imagine how that would play out with different builds!

This is the key to a player being able to truly choose what kind of frame he will be.

Disclaimer: Again I chose the 100 percent increase for simplicity sake. If some other percentage, 90, 80,50 or whatever is better that is fine. A few attributes might even need some caps to make sure this is well balanced. As not all attributes are equal in practice.

Note: According to recent devstreams we know that a charged jump will be coming to Warframe.

When Charge jump is added to the game Excalibur will jump twice as high during Exceed mode.

 

4: Immanence: Excalibur creates his energy sword in his hand and will wield it like a melee weapon. This will last for X seconds. It has it's own unique stance and animations. Every swing of this sword releases a wave of energy that flies out Y meters from the blade and does Z damage on the targets it hit's.

These waves will go out their full distance striking any and all enemies in the line. This power is calculated based on power strength, it's width is effected by range mods, and it's distance traveled is effected by duration mods. Additionally the energy waves will take on the elemental property of Excalibur's currently equipped melee weapon.  

 

There you go. :-)

 

Would you want to get rid of Mesa's shatter shield on the grounds that it is a passive even though it's so integral to the use of her ULT?

In the same way that Mesa's heavily thematic ult is made more viable when it is paired with her passive buff of Shatter shield....

Excalibur's Immanence (what I called the sword stance) is made more viable when it is paired with his passive buff of Exceed.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now if we are to question the idea of the sword stance itself-

The issue with choice of melee i can understand, but is that really a valid counter argument to not implement the Power? I mean Mesa also has two specific Guns and Valkyr has her Claws. Does everybody like these specific Weapons the same way? Probably not! But i´d still argue that both of these Weapons are defining design traits that serve to give identity to the Frame and as a set up for a great Power.

That´s where my idea with the Energy Sword was coming from and i honestly don´t think that some People may not liking the design of the Sword are justification enough to not implement such a Power. 

 

Hell... i might even end up not liking the Sword! I haven´t seen it yet, so what do i know! ;)

The issue of choice in melee is indeed a valid counter argument in THIS particular case. Both Mesa and Valkyr were released as frames with a specialized weapon. Even they get some flak for it...but that is how they always were. On the other hand Excalibur was released as a frame without such a restriction. His identity was quite literally about choice in weaponry and playstyle. There are quite a few people who enjoy that identity.

 

The argument isn't simply that "some people may not like the sword design". It's that once you take a "build how you want to frame" and turn him away from that to make him even more of a "swordsman" frame than he is it is hard on those who favored him for how he was. That said it is quite clear how EXcalibur, as a whole, has fallen behind the curve and needs work.

 

If we don't even consider...if we don't even attempt to find a way to combine BOTH identities we are doing a disservice.

I very much care about Excalibur swordsman identity. Do you care about Excalibur "build how you want" identity?

Edited April 15, 2015 by Ronyn

[Jahadaya]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now if we are to question the idea of the sword stance itself-

The issue of choice in melee is indeed a valid counter argument in THIS particular case. Both Mesa and Valkyr were released as frames with a specialized weapon. Even they get some flak for it...but that is how they always were. On the other hand Excalibur was released as a frame without such a restriction. His identity was quite literally about choice in weaponry and playstyle. There are quite a few people who enjoy that identity.

 

The argument isn't simply that "some people may not like the sword design". It's that once you take a "build how you want to frame" and turn him away from that to make him even more of a "swordsman" frame than he is it is hard on those who favored him for how he was. That said it is quite clear how EXcalibur, as a whole, has fallen behind the curve and needs work.

 

If we don't even consider...if we don't even attempt to find a way to combine BOTH identities we are doing a disservice.

I very much care about Excalibur swordsman identity. Do you care about Excalibur "build how you want" identity?

This. So much this. I couldn't have said it better. 

[Malitias]

If we don't even consider...if we don't even attempt to find a way to combine BOTH identities we are doing a disservice.

I very much care about Excalibur swordsman identity. Do you care about Excalibur "build how you want" identity?

To be honest, I don't. =/

If one frame get's too many possibilities on how to build him, you wouldn't need any other frames in the game.

While I do agree there has to be some variability to how you can build him, I do not enjoy the thought of making it possible for him to do about anything.

And a "jack of all traits, master of none" kinda thing just doesn't work out in a group, because people will usually need you to fullfill a specific roll.

[Ronyn]

To be honest, I don't. =/

Some people don't and that is ok in itself. But that is what Excalibur was supposed to be. That is what a lot of folks like him for.

I don't have to personally enjoy every frame or like playing their roles to have the desire to preserve and fulfill it for those who do.

 

If one frame get's too many possibilities on how to build him, you wouldn't need any other frames in the game.

While I do agree there has to be some variability to how you can build him, I do not enjoy the thought of making it possible for him to do about anything.

And a "jack of all traits, master of none" kinda thing just doesn't work out in a group, because people will usually need you to fullfill a specific roll.

None of those problems are what we are what we are looking at here though.

Exceed would help Excalibur effectively fulfill specific roles in tough content as long as he made a build heavily slanted toward that one role. Primarily his choices are damage dealer (a deadly weapon), tank (agent of distraction), or high speed striker (reconnaissance scout) as intended. Each of those to the degree that it's effective but none of them to the degree that he overtakes anyone with the full specialization in those roles. And it certainly wouldn't allow Excalibur to take on ANY possible role in the game. For example he'd still have no capacity to act as a healer and very little to act as support.

Edited April 15, 2015 by Ronyn

[Ordel]

To be honest, I don't. =/

If one frame get's too many possibilities on how to build him, you wouldn't need any other frames in the game.

While I do agree there has to be some variability to how you can build him, I do not enjoy the thought of making it possible for him to do about anything.

And a "jack of all traits, master of none" kinda thing just doesn't work out in a group, because people will usually need you to fullfill a specific roll.

I've been lurking on this thread, but this response..eugh. Out of all the other responses (most of which made sense), this one was painful to read. You even contradicted yourself.

 

"If one frame get's too many possibilities on how to build him, you wouldn't need any other frames in the game."

Arguably not. In Ronyn's concept, Exca has no healing power. Very little (if any) support. He damages, tanks, or scouts, and that's basically all. Exca can fulfill different roles, but he's not the best and usually being 'good' at something won't be as useful as being "the best" in high levels. Especially T4D/S/I. That's why he gets to be "the best" at being "versatile". So he CAN be useful in T4.

 

"And a 'jack of all traits, master of none' kinda thing just doesn't work out in a group, because people will usually need you to fulfill a specific role."

Did you not just say that he would be the "end-all frame"? Now you're saying he would be useless in high-level content, since he's not specialized. Which is untrue because of Exceed, and the fact he's given utility and better overall survivability. Besides that, as Ronyn pointed out, he's no healer and he's barely supportive in his rework. But he's still good for whatever he's modded for.

 

tldr; exca can't do anything and contradiction is bad in forums

edit- cleaned up post because i was sloppy af

Edited April 15, 2015 by Ordel

[Malitias]

 

You totally didn't get my meaning.

[WolvenEdge]

There's another issue with him being the 'jack of all trades'. He doesn't have the build for it. You can FORCE him to tank, using Redirection, Vitality, Steel Fiber, Vigor, and Quick Thinking, but that forces you to only build one way. He doesn't have the stats for any of this, he is purely baseline in everything. One of the game's 'official tank frames' is faster than he is. There goes the entire concept of 'balance between mobility ...'

 

'... and offensive capabilty.'

Eugh. It's been said before, allow me to say it again; he doesn't HAVE much offensive capability once you get to enemies that don't die instantly on contact with his slashy-dashness. All his attack abilities just became ways to either stun or run... and those abilities didn't even provide much mobility OR stun, except Radial Blind, which is neither mobility nor offensive capability.

And as a result of his rather wimpy stats (nothing above the default value at all, one stat even below average), he truly cannot be 'modded to fit any playstyle,' because most playstyles he will be far less effective at than a warframe that was designed closer to that playstyle already.

He truly has nothing that is entirely his own, even his sword theme is covered by every single Tenno and WarFrame out there. This is Excalibur putting himself back in a place where he can stand tall instead of kowtowing to every other frame no matter what he does, and I for one will stand for that tooth and claw.

Don't get me wrong; I enjoy the ideas you put forward (Defiance and Exceed especially sound interesting, though they would be a delicate balancing act), and would like to see them given a try, but the concept of Excalibur you're trying to push along with those ideas is a fair part of what's been missing from him for a long time.

 

Also, again; crit mods don't go on the warframe any more. Neither do damage mods. The video is way, way out of date, if he changes, he changes. Be the splint! Help him heal stronger, and in a way that allows him to stand on his own again.

 

Oh, and before I forget... -w- If we're sticking to 'rules as written,' please don't start with me. Pathfinder, D&D, and Rifts/Palladium players are taught how to munchkin from day one, I just really, really don't like playing cheese to beat rock, paper, and scissors. Just because someone swings a sword in battle doesn't make the sword their theme. Just for jokes, I'd have liked a Nerf logo sigil for my Excalibur, and honestly, it's closer to his current theme than the sword is. X3

 

And now, on top of that, I never said I thought that being 'locked into a sword mode' was a good thing. I proposed, SEVERAL TIMES, the opposite; have the ability be a toggle. Press 4 to pull it out, press 4 to put it away. It's another weapon in his arsenal, an extremely powerful, and extremely energy-expensive weapon, but a weapon nonetheless. It would not FORCE anyone into anything, as you could pull it out and put it away as often as you wished to, and it would even fit the much-vaunted 'versatility' of Excalibur, by essentially giving him one more weapon (and a unique one at that) than any other frame has.