Improving Player Scaling And Survivability: Health And Shield Gating Mechanics

[bejuizb]

Hey everyone,

 

The purpose of this thread is to suggest and brainstorm the introduction of a possible mechanic to improve player scaling and survivability as the level and damage of enemies scales in later stages of endless mission runs. I'm fairly certain a lot of us have gotten frustrated over instances where a single shot, completely un-telegraphed, manages to instantly destroy our shields, and maybe even our entire health pool. It's not a very enjoyable experience, since being one shot especially out of your own control, isn't particularly lending to good gameplay time. 

 

This issue was highlighted especially in the most recent tactical alert, featuring the extremely scaled up Manic Grineer. I entered the mission using a Valkyr, built for tanking, and I was constantly downed by a single, completely non-telegraphed swipe (bypassing my block by the way), and effectively chunking me for around 7000 effective health (135% armour boost Warcry + 1260 armour). As it might be expected, I felt quite...cheated. It made me think about how gimped I feel as enemies scale and I don't. As time progresses, the very notion of not using what can be considered "cheese" tactics (perma invis Lokis, Rift Peacemakers, etc.) seem to become the only way to combat the scaling. The purpose of this thread is to brainstorm two related ideas to combat this helplessness and alleviate the troubles faced by us due to endless scaling in our enemies.

 

First Idea: Shield Gating

 

Shields are our very first line of defense in Warframe, serving as a rechargeable artificial health pool to soak up some damage before we incur permanent health damage. Shields have 0 armour, and therefore have 0 damage resistance. In a sense, all the damage a shield takes is "true". Completely unmitigated. It is therefore perfectly logical to understand that shields take a lot more damage than health. Perhaps introducing a mechanic to help us prepare to take permanent health damage would help us combat the "one shot" problem faced as scaling becomes a major issue. 

 

The concept of Shield gating with regards to this proposal has been derived from the video game Mass Effect, especially Mass Effect 3, since it also has a scaling based PvE multiplayer. In that game, enemies don't scale in damage, but in threat. There are instances where the enemy most probably would do a substantially greater amount of damage had the Shield Gating phenomenon not existed. 

 

Before I continue, let me explain how shield gating is intended to work. As long as you possess shields, the mechanic makes it impossible for you to be "one shot" by any enemy. The actual quantity of shields determines how much of a damage resistance you have, as well as the amount of time you maintain the damage resistance. 

 

Let me provide a rough layout of how the level based damage reduction works.

 

< or =25% shields => 50% damage reduction for 1s.

< or =50% shields => 75% damage reduction for 1s

> or =75% shields => 100% damage reduction for 1.5s

 

For example, if your maximum shields are 100, an enemy, regardless of the amount of damage dealt by a single shot, cannot exceed 100 damage. If they originally deal 200 damage, they initially chunk your entire shield pool, and you do not take any damage for the next 1.5s, giving you time to react to the "oh sh!t" moment that will inevitably follow from getting your entire shield pool demolished in one shot. An argument could be made saying that this would make content more trivial, since you technically are invulnerable for 1.5s, but you must consider that your shields do not regenerate for 3 seconds after being hit, meaning after the brief 1.5 seconds, you're taking health damage, which is far more detrimental. The purpose of the shield gate is to let you quickly find cover, play safely and ensure that your shields are shooting back up.

 

Now, let's assume that your shields got drained in a hit, and you took cover, so as to let it recharge. But you don't let it recharge completely, and are at 25 shields now.Let's say the enemy from our first example hits us again for 200 damage. The first 25 damage would destroy our shields, and the 50% damage reduction kicks in. That would mean that we take an additional 37.5 health damage (instead of 75), assuming we have 0 armour. Now, if our shields were at 50, we would take 50 shields + 12.5 health damage (instead of 50). Therefore, it's best to play safe, letting your shields recharge between drains to ensure maximum survivability. This would also serve the benefit of making the Fast Deflection mod more useful, so that your shield recharge is faster, allowing more damage reduction phases. 

 

Second Idea: Health Gating

 

Similar to the Shield Gating mechanic, Health gating is a mechanic I first saw in the video game Borderlands 2, which possessed several dozen enemies with the ability to one shot players, which would've made gameplay very frustrating. Health gating in Warframe already does exist in a different way, using the Quick Thinking mod. Quick Thinking essentially makes your health pool increase using energy as fodder to keep you alive. Quick Thinking naturally benefits frames with higher armour, because of it works with increasing effective health. To add another layer of survivability, without having to force Warframes to have very substantial armour scaling, the Health Gate mechanic will provide survivability as long as a specific health threshold is maintained. 

 

As long as you possess 50% of your HP (mod bonuses included), your health cannot instantly be drained to 0. It will instead be drained to 5% of your maximum health. To put this into perspective, let's say you have 100 health, and take a shot directly to your health. The shot deals 150 damage, but thanks to the Health Gate mechanic, your health is instead reduced to 5 points. You need to find a way to restore 45 health before taking another shot, so as to proc the health gate. If you for some reason, possess 51 health and take a 150 damage shot, the health gate would still apply, but the same would not happen if you have 49 health. 

 

Alongside the 5% hp limit, the health gate mechanic would also provide a damage reduction steroid to the player, for 2 seconds, based on the amount of damage taken prior to the health gate took effect.

 

If the damage dealt was greater than 25% of the player's maximum health, they gain 40% damage reduction for 2s.If the damage dealt was greater than 50% of the player's maximum health, the damage reduction is increased to 80%. If the damage dealt was greater than 90% of the player's maximum health, the damage reduction is increased to 90%. You cannot gain invulnerability with the health gate, and therefore will take a few more ticks of damage after you reach 5% of your max health. Finding a source of healing to keep you topped above the health gate threshold therefore becomes necessary to increase your survivability, adding more difficulty to higher tier content, while still attempting to make it fair for players to survive and combat effectively. The mechanic would require changing playstyles and fram choices for certain, but it could possibly pay off.

 

Before I end the post, I'd like to post a few disclaimer statements. I do not guarantee this proposal to be a success, this is merely a thought experiment that I felt like sharing with the community, so as to possibly mull over the implications of introducing these mechanics. Any and all constructive feedback is appreciated, especially any corrections in calculations, as I'm not too mathematically inclined.

 

Thanks for reading, hope this idea piques peoples' interests!

[AdunSaveMe]

I don't see a downside to it. One shot kills from things like ballistas are not challenge, after all.

 

As long as they don't put it on enemies. Putting it on enemies would be terrible, especially for certain guns.

 

For those of you who are too lazy to read;

Shield gating pretty much means a single hit can wipe out your shields but will not touch your health in the same shot.

It treats shields as a separate protection layer rather than 'just more health', which is what it technically is now.

Edited April 13, 2015 by AdunSaveMe

[Verdha603]

I actually like this idea. I will admit to severe bias towards it because I enjoy playing tank-like builds, but honestly I think this mechanic would be very helpful in higher tiers of play.

[Severuslanskerr]

Im ALL for it ... one shot kills(from enemies) in PVE is NEVER a good choice and never should be in any real game that deserves quality like warframe

[PAX_NL]

This seems like a good idea.

 

Finally we can have the advanced shields of the nullifiers at our disposal, they already have this gated mechanic (in several steps actually).

 

One problem with it would be if enemies get this as well. It would seem really weird to me when a fully modded opticor can't one shot a lvl 1 moa anymore.

[Severuslanskerr]

Im sorry to repost but im pressing the 1 Up button so hard (even if i cant one up more than once) that my finger starts bleeding ...

[NyghttheClassy]

Shield gating, in some form or another, is something I have seen in a number of other games (besides just the ME series). The notion that a fully fresh, un-harmed and ready fighter won't just be bumped off, and is instead, be it shields, armour or some other protective mechanic, stripped off their protective layer first, absorbing all the damage to that as it is destroyed and giving the victim, be it a player or special enemy, a brief, reflexive moment to act.

  It always seemed like a brilliant idea too. If you're a player, being the special, heroic character of game series X, Y or Z, you sort of expect to be able to take a hit. You expect to not be just obliterated in a single blow that you couldn't have anticipated or prepared for. The only games that really get away with that are things like Dark souls, where everything is, to an extent choreographed. If it's an enemy, particularly a special one, some kind of elite or mini-boss, you again expect them to take at least one hit and then turn on you or make an escape.

 That brief moment gives us a choice; do I play this safe, instinctively dive for cover and fight from there where it's safer? Do I bolt from the fight, knowing that this isn't one I can win? Or do I stand and grit my teeth, firing back and hoping I finish him off quicker than he finishes me, tanking the damages on a gamble.

 

Certainly seems a better idea than: You got hit - dead.

[AdunSaveMe]

Certainly seems a better idea than: You got hit - dead.

It would also serve to work against the severity of infinite scaling in all its skill-stifling glory.

[NyxCrab]

I like the idea, cause it was useful in BL2 and it would fit perfectly here for high level gameplay. The only problem I see was a problem that existed in BL2 as well: any form of healing yourself for makes it almost impossible kill. It would make Life Strike and Winds of Purity so much better than they already are, almost broken so. I'm not suggesting nerfing those two, but if Health gating was added Life Strike and WoP would probably need a change.

[AdunSaveMe]

I like the idea, cause it was useful in BL2 and it would fit perfectly here for high level gameplay. The only problem I see was a problem that existed in BL2 as well: any form of healing yourself for makes it almost impossible kill. It would make Life Strike and Winds of Purity so much better than they already are, almost broken so. I'm not suggesting nerfing those two, but if Health gating was added Life Strike and WoP would probably need a change.

Health gating might not be a good option, but shield gating definitely is.

[Rawrjay]

I really really like this idea..

 

And I hope DE adopts it, because getting 1 shot is no fun at all. I don't even play frames that don't have high armor/sheild/health because what's the point? Gonna get 1 shot anyway, eventually, lower my armor/shield/health the sooner.

[KittyShark]

Yeeeeah. we need this, I've been instagibbed a few too many times. Especially by death orbs. that go through 1200 Iron skin, 1110 shields and 700+ hp in less than 1.5 seconds. and It happened more than once on a T2 exterminate.

(Also I'm still of the opinion that those Manics were designed to oneshot players no matter what) Especially since the moas could own their faces.

[Terumitsu]

I am all for this 100%

 

....Though I can see how this would do some Very interesting things to how people mod their warframes... Which could be an extra bonus on top of that!

[NyxCrab]

Health gating might not be a good option, but shield gating definitely is.

I'm all for shield gating, though again with the new trinity augment and MAG's shield polarize it may be too easy to pretty much avoid the shield gating, but there are ways around that for both shield gating and health gating. It's not a bad idea, but some mechanics could make it a bit too easy to not die with it. All they would have to do is like "after you lose your shields you cannot have restores or whatever affect the shields until the recharge pops in" and for health gating "after you reach the health gate once things that would normally heal you unaffect you for a few seconds". Though that would indirectly nerf some frames.

[Davoodoo]

Theres no mechanics involved, if you want to have more hp in general you increase base stats, if you want more hp after certain progression stage you increase bonus on mods.

 

Shield/hp mods give you 146% increase over their base value, power strength mods give you 30, 55, 99 increase over base value, weapon mods give you over 5000% increase over base value.

Thats the biggest problem with balance in game.

Edited April 13, 2015 by Davoodoo

[zoboso]

I note that your idea would be better applied to enemies than to us as they need a lower TTK (Insofar that they need to be able to attempt to do their thing).

 

also at the end of your post you mentioned needing additional 45 health to trigger the health gating again, which is incorrect as you would only need 20 energy because 5% of 20 is one hp. Super vulnerable but alive.

 

Finally you idea might be good as a shield mod because we should get more shield choices

[Ironlixivium]

I really hope this is implemented, although imo I think shields, no matter how full they are, should not allow damage from a single shot do damage to both your shields and health. There is one problem with your shield gating idea though, that you might want to add to your post at the end or something; shields will also need to regenerate a percentage of their maximum (not base, in game maximum counting mods) per second instead of a flat rate (I'm pretty sure they regenerate at a flat rate right now, but I could be wrong). This is because if they regenerate at a flat rate, and they offer short damage resistance based on PERCENTAGE drained, not amount drained, having 1 shield point could be preferable to having 1000 shields, since your 1 shield would regenerate instantly, and be immediately ready to provide another 1.5s 100% damage resistance. (yes, I know there's no way to get 1 shield, but you get the idea) Personally I think this should be added anyway, as high-shield warframes take too long to regenerate their shields.

[Phatose]

The shield gate resistance mechanic proposed would amount to functional invincibility for any frame with a shield restoring ability, or any player with a quantity of shield restore pads.

 

The only way I can see this type of mechanic being function is if it has a considerable cooldown time.  Something along the lines of "after a gate saves you, it ceases to function for 60 seconds."

 

 

I'd rather not see any of this implemented.  A one shot death generally isn't a cheap death at all, but a rather direct result of player mistakes.  Going into a place where enemies can deal more damage then you have combined health and shields is a first class mistake in and of itself, and you should be allowed to die if you get into that situation.  Strategic level failures like that should be punished harshly.

[Serafinia]

Armor gating and armor levels/categories like - light weigh, medium, heavy. Each frame have their base armor but not sure how much percent those armors can sponge. Combining them with resistance mods and additional armor mods and put the armor as a third defense layer would be nicer. I am also agree with shield gating it sounds much better than one shot you die.

[Suthurn]

i can see what you are getting at, but in all honesty you are going to change it from being 1-shot to being 2-shot. that is the entire big difference it will make. if things were 1vs1 it would probably be a big deal, but when you are doing a mission type where enemies can one shot you there are always large groups of them.

 

i just honestly do not see this changing much. 

[Ironlixivium]

The shield gate resistance mechanic proposed would amount to functional invincibility for any frame with a shield restoring ability, or any player with a quantity of shield restore pads.

 

The only way I can see this type of mechanic being function is if it has a considerable cooldown time.  Something along the lines of "after a gate saves you, it ceases to function for 60 seconds."

 

 

I'd rather not see any of this implemented.  A one shot death generally isn't a cheap death at all, but a rather direct result of player mistakes.  Going into a place where enemies can deal more damage then you have combined health and shields is a first class mistake in and of itself, and you should be allowed to die if you get into that situation.  Strategic level failures like that should be punished harshly.

Right. It was definitely my fault that I walked around a corner and took a Detron to the face, even though there was NO warning, and NO chance for me to survive it. Hey, why not just remove shields altogether! That's a great idea! then every time you get hit by a bullet, you get closer to you inevitable demise, and you can know, it was YOUR fault ^_^ you should've not gotten hit by the hit-scan bullet, what's wrong with you? How dare you get hit by the bullet that was impossible to dodge, Jesus, what's this world coming to? Hell, why not give tenno 1 health while we're at it, then they can ALWAYS die when they make a mistake! Having fun yet? :D I know I am! I love it when I get one-shotted by bullet sponges that tank multiple sniper rounds to the face, really, I've NEVER HAD MORE FUN IN MY LIFE.

[chuckdm]

I support this, totally.  However I'd like to make one suggestion.  When playing in a group, there should be a shield gate ONLY.  Health Gate should only be active when playing solo.  Since in a group you can still get revived, but when solo, you're down a life either way, this makes better balance sense.

 

But yes, I still totally love and support this, all the way.  As long as we're playing a game with limited revives and OHKO enemies, the game is feature-incomplete without this.

[Phatose]

Right. It was definitely my fault that I walked around a corner and took a Detron to the face, even though there was NO warning, and NO chance for me to survive it. Hey, why not just remove shields altogether! That's a great idea! then every time you get hit by a bullet, you get closer to you inevitable demise, and you can know, it was YOUR fault ^_^ you should've not gotten hit by the hit-scan bullet, what's wrong with you? How dare you get hit by the bullet that was impossible to dodge, Jesus, what's this world coming to? Hell, why not give tenno 1 health while we're at it, then they can ALWAYS die when they make a mistake! Having fun yet? :D I know I am! I love it when I get one-shotted by bullet sponges that tank multiple sniper rounds to the face, really, I've NEVER HAD MORE FUN IN MY LIFE.

 

When you started the mission, did it have an indicator of the level range of opponent you'd be facing?  Did it say "Corpus"?  Did you go and consider how much damage they'd be able to deal to you, and take a look at your health and shields to see if it was enough?

 

Really, there was a lot of warning.  You just ignored it, went somewhere a single shot could take you out, and got predictably taken out.  That's 100% your fault - epic fail on your fault. Equivalent to playing in traffic on the interstate and complaining it's too hard to dodge the cars, while completely ignoring how bad an idea playing in traffic on the interstate was.

 

Just another case of players failing during the planning phases and pretending those failures aren't failures.  But they are.  Epic failure.

Edited April 13, 2015 by Phatose

[(PSN)InstantOG]

Gating works amazing in Borderlands (Only game I've played with it). It would help a ton in this game too. I'm tired of Ballista one shots, One shot sneezes, One shot Toxic procs, etc.

[zoboso]

I feel like this addresses a symptom instead of the root problem, the broken scaling. If this works the solution will be more complicated than the problem, and more cost intensive.