Logicframe: Nullie Edition

[Ironlixivium]

     I know, there are a million threads on nullies, all begging for nerfs and none never seem to get much attention. Aside from how they block bullets with a shield that can only take 400 damage at a time, stop the use of abilities, and can one shot any frame with the sniper they got for not being strong enough with their other abilities(huh, that actually seems kinda nerf worthy) I'd just like to point out that they also apparently nullify logic too (gee, I'd like to get one of those shields. math test + fish = A+).

 

     This is sorta asking for a nerf, but it's more about making them make sense, right now, they don't. They appear to delete everything labelled "warframe ability" that comes in contact with their shields. So how exactly do nullies work? if DE answered "dark magic", disregard this post. otherwise, please continue reading. 

 

     I just think the affect to certain abilities should be modified. for example, a nullifier shield just deletes amd. Amd, as it's name suggests, is a drop of antimatter. So why exactly do nullifiers delete this? Seems like dark magic to me. The most logical way to describe a nullie shield would be a shield that halts and disables tenno energy inside the shield. Ok, so, can't abilities in shield, check. disables abilities entering the shield, check. Neutralizes blobs of antimatter...um...no...I don't see how that fits in there. A better reaction would be if the antimatter is suddenly affected by gravity and drops to the ground, where it would explode just like normal, which would fit, as nova would no longer be in control of the amd since her energy would be stopped by the field.

 

     Other examples of what I mean would ash's shuriken and mesa's peacemaker. They should deal damage to the shield, not just get nullified or ignore everything in the shield. Again, stopping tenno energy I could see. Deleting little shards of metal? Please explain how that works. And peacemaker: the bullets aren't energy, just the state she's in uses it, so I don't see why she can't shoot the shield. peacemaker already falls off hard in damage, she doesn't need to be nullified too.

 

     Corrupted nullies: They shouldn't logically exist, their nullification shield should have nullified the neural sentry. can we have corrupted snipers instead? Or corrupted corpus techs? Otherwise, we need to start going on missions to cause anger between Corpus and Grineer, if they ever see a nullie+bombard and figure out they can do that without the void, tenno everywhere will be royally screwed by our new grineer-corpus faction that trains nothing but nullers and bombards.

 

     Since I'm asking for the addition of logic, I might as well ask for this too: Nullies are kinda op with the combination of a shield, ability stopper, and sniper rifle. I'd like if their shield wouldn't stop bullets like it does, but rather be bigger, unshrinkable, and only affect abilities. With its current logic, it might as well nullify everything, including bullets, tenno (touching shields incinerate us), rockets, every other projectile, restores, everything that has to do with us, cause why not? they're already powered by dark magic, it wouldn't break any logic by doing that that it doesn't already break.

[Zoracraft]

They're a stupid, bandaid enemy. DE just doesn't have the guts to start balancing abilities, so apparently every faction needs power immune enemies now.

And corrupted nullifiers were just a slap in the face. Let's screw logic and our closest thing to endgame at the same time! Brilliant idea!

[Drasiel]

It would also be great if nullifier bubbles didn't go through floors and walls. 

[OverlordMcGeek]

Also DE, please explain how Nekros is even capable to SOTD them.

Nekros shoves void energy into them or creates pure void energy copies of those killed. Either way the nullifiers prop up a shield and...not cancel themselves out?!

[(PSN)V3RM1THRAX]

If they are gonna keep nullifiers in game then they shouldn't have any weapons

[-FV-Wsocks]

If they are gonna keep nullifiers in game then they shouldn't have any weapons

Or be a melee enemy that actively charges you. 

[ArbitUHM]

This is pretty much "selective realism" going on here, OP. Nullifiers blocking Ash's shuriken doesn't make sense because they're just shards of metal, but the same shards of metal causing a MOA i.e. robot to bleed to death or causing a heavy gunner's armor to corrode off is OK?

 

A lot of Tenno abilities are based off of or styled after real world concepts or ideas, like shuriken or antimatter, but it's Tenno power, whatever that is, that makes it possible. Nova summons and/or controls antimatter through her Tenno powers, and when it makes contact with a Nullifier's shield it dissipates that power and also the antimatter. It's Ash's Tenno power that imbues his shuriken with their homing ability and ability to bleed heavily armored targets to death (through bleed procs and armor removal via the aug), so they bounce off a nullifier shield kind of like a bullet does. Works for me.

[Old_King_Belgothia]

Abilities should remain uncastable within the nullifer shield range... however...

 

Rhino's armour shouldn't disintegrate in an instant (it can tank toxin) instead it should just slowly start to go down while within the nullifier.

 

Limbo shouldn't pulled out of the rift. He's in another dimension so the nullifier can't even hit him.(manics can also pull him from rift) This would actually be really cool strategy for poor limbo players to rift walk into the bubble to them come out and melee. Limbo being nerfed to death is another issue all together (seriously enemies can use consoles in rift but not the rift-master himself).

 

And as a previous user said... things like Ash's shuriken shouldn't be nullified. it's just metal. It was spawned from Tenno power but that doesn't mean it's entirely made of Tenno energy. There are plenty of other abilities like that, too. How are they being countered? The nullifier detects the metal's history and then disintegrates it in an instant? If it had that power why doesn't it just disintegrate the Tenno entirely?

 

As other have said... the enemy and many new ones are patch-work instead of giving the older enemies proper squads and A.I to counter Tenno in an intelligent manner. They try to brute force everything and players do so back at them with power spam because it worked (and still works). Kubrows are still unfinished and we cannot command them to attack/prioritise nullifiers. There's no elegant strategy to it anymore because of the consistent abandonment of other aspects of the game.

 

And now we're getting a new faction? Dear lord.

 

PS. It's still fun to shoot down a nully's shield and mind-control him with Nyx.

[(PSN)Pharen]

What I don't get is how the Corpus created a shield that can stop Warframe abilities, and despite the fact we are there single greatest threat, only one unit wields the shield, and it is not built into other defenses. To me a Corrupted Nullifier makes sense, but not as a Corpus unit, since the Orokin created the Warframes, it makes sense they too would create a defense against it.

[(PSN)Pharen]

This is pretty much "selective realism" going on here, OP. Nullifiers blocking Ash's shuriken doesn't make sense because they're just shards of metal, but the same shards of metal causing a MOA i.e. robot to bleed to death or causing a heavy gunner's armor to corrode off is OK?

 

A lot of Tenno abilities are based off of or styled after real world concepts or ideas, like shuriken or antimatter, but it's Tenno power, whatever that is, that makes it possible. Nova summons and/or controls antimatter through her Tenno powers, and when it makes contact with a Nullifier's shield it dissipates that power and also the antimatter. It's Ash's Tenno power that imbues his shuriken with their homing ability and ability to bleed heavily armored targets to death (through bleed procs and armor removal via the aug), so they bounce off a nullifier shield kind of like a bullet does. Works for me.

Actually I can explain these:

"but the same shards of metal causing a MOA i.e. robot to bleed to death" - Coolant, not blood, remove coolant and the Moa overheats and damages itself.

"causing a heavy gunner's armor to corrode off is OK" - Only missing a visual. Or if you mean temporary, it could be a liquid catalyst that weakens the structure of the metal while under strain, IE weapon impact/heat.

[Xardis]

The problem is that there is no Tenno Power. Tenno use their abilities manipulating Technocyte - Tenno are infused with is as all who know "Dark Sector's" lore. All abilities follow this rule. I agree with what you said, Nullifier should not affect abilites in so stupid way. Amd should explode and deal 10x bullet damage to his shield and peacemaker spuld allow to damage his shield normaly.

[Ironlixivium]

This is pretty much "selective realism" going on here, OP. Nullifiers blocking Ash's shuriken doesn't make sense because they're just shards of metal, but the same shards of metal causing a MOA i.e. robot to bleed to death or causing a heavy gunner's armor to corrode off is OK?

 

A lot of Tenno abilities are based off of or styled after real world concepts or ideas, like shuriken or antimatter, but it's Tenno power, whatever that is, that makes it possible. Nova summons and/or controls antimatter through her Tenno powers, and when it makes contact with a Nullifier's shield it dissipates that power and also the antimatter. It's Ash's Tenno power that imbues his shuriken with their homing ability and ability to bleed heavily armored targets to death (through bleed procs and armor removal via the aug), so they bounce off a nullifier shield kind of like a bullet does. Works for me.

But they DON'T bounce off the shield. They disappear. On contact. 

 

Limbo shouldn't pulled out of the rift. He's in another dimension so the nullifier can't even hit him.(manics can also pull him from rift) This would actually be really cool strategy for poor limbo players to rift walk into the bubble to them come out and melee. Limbo being nerfed to death is another issue all together (seriously enemies can use consoles in rift but not the rift-master himself).

 

And as a previous user said... things like Ash's shuriken shouldn't be nullified. it's just metal. It was spawned from Tenno power but that doesn't mean it's entirely made of Tenno energy. There are plenty of other abilities like that, too. How are they being countered? The nullifier detects the metal's history and then disintegrates it in an instant? If it had that power why doesn't it just disintegrate the Tenno entirely?

Soooooooooooo basically dark magic?

[Marthrym]

You don't get it OP. De cannot do logic. Or rather not "good" logic. Especially when this logic is good for the game. If it's boring and unfair logic, sure, they'll use the crap out of it. But fun and fair logic? They run away screaming "Kill it with fire!" as soon as it shows up. It's quite a feat when something both fun and fair stays unchanged for more than a month or two... And let's not even talk about their definition of "challenge"... Piling up numbers and unfair/dirty mechanics out the wazzoo is apparently Canadian for challenge in WarGUNS.

 

Somehow I still like the game and the devs, no matter how much I bash it. They must be wizards or something, getting us under some spell...

[zoboso]

The dark magic in the Warframe universe is the void's energy, it powers the SWarframes and hides prime parts under a planet of grind.

[OverlordMcGeek]

DE better see this.

[-Kryptyk-]

They're a stupid, bandaid enemy. DE just doesn't have the guts to start balancing abilities, so apparently every faction needs power immune enemies now.

And corrupted nullifiers were just a slap in the face. Let's screw logic and our closest thing to endgame at the same time! Brilliant idea!

this is warframe.  what is logic. :P

[ArbitUHM]

Actually I can explain these:

"but the same shards of metal causing a MOA i.e. robot to bleed to death" - Coolant, not blood, remove coolant and the Moa overheats and damages itself.

"causing a heavy gunner's armor to corrode off is OK" - Only missing a visual. Or if you mean temporary, it could be a liquid catalyst that weakens the structure of the metal while under strain, IE weapon impact/heat.

Both of these explanations are really reaching. Why wouldn't any bullet piercing its armor cause the same sort of coolant bleed? What's so special about Ash's shuriken?

 

Regarding the armor thing, they're shuriken, not acid vials. And there's enough liquid catalyst in those tiny shuriken that it covers the entire body of the gunner? And what does heat strain have to do with anything?

 

If these bleeding and armor corrosion properties are solely a property of the shuriken themselves, why can't anyone use them? Why is it a power specific to Ash? Why does it cost energy to use them?

 

Going further down this route just raise more and more questions. The fact is Warframe is sci-fi fantasy with fireball throwing space ninjas shooting electric-bio weapons, so getting all "geez DE use some LOGIC here you dumb idiots" is pretty ridiculous. Nullifiers nullify Tenno powers whether they're modeled off a grenade, shuriken, fire breathing dragons, or psionics. It's at least internally consistent.

 

But they DON'T bounce off the shield. They disappear. On contact. 

I'm almost entirely certain they bounce, but I don't really see why it should matter either way. If he's going to summon them or imbue them using energy from his warframe, then they should be fair game for nullification.

[(PSN)B0XMAN517]

You're playing a game that has you wipe out a planet controlled by grineer only to have you go back to the still controlled planet to protect them from a corpus invasion and you ask for logic? I get the request for changing the ROF mechanic of the shield or addressing the issue of them being walking instakilling aim bots, but looking for logic in a game like Warframe will drive you crazy.

[Ironlixivium]

You're playing a game that has you wipe out a planet controlled by grineer only to have you go back to the still controlled planet to protect them from a corpus invasion and you ask for logic? I get the request for changing the ROF mechanic of the shield or addressing the issue of them being walking instakilling aim bots, but looking for logic in a game like Warframe will drive you crazy.

You have a bit of a point, but this isn't the first game I've liked that didn't always follow logic. Some things that the others I've played followed were these simple rules:

 

1. ignored logic when it's awesome (nonsense player abilities that are just awesome)

 

2. ignore logic for humorous reasons, occasionally this screwed the player over, but at least it's funny.

 

Nullers are neither of these :/ that's why I want these changes. The lack of logic in nullers is simply there to screw the player over. It's not funny or awesome, just irritating. In other words, ignored logic is only acceptable when it makes the experience better, like how it would be lame if you had to wait for a node to repopulate before playing it again.

 

There's a big difference between

 

"Lol, wtf, did that thing just kill me with a plunger?!"

and

"ugh, wtf, this is impossible and it doesn't make any sense."

 

unfortunately, nullies get the latter response, that's why I started this thread.

Edited April 21, 2015 by Ironlixivium

[Loswaith]

Not really, the logic is there.

 

Tenno employ Powers with a healthy dose of the gun and blade of the old ways.  Seems the corpus are smart enough to realise that threat, and discover a way to counter the two greatest strengths of the tenno, powers and guns (bullet protection assisting battles with grineer is a bonus).  

Thus they create units to deploy with personal shield generators (they are the forfront of shielding tech) to test the technology (and keep the costs much lower than for an entire ship sized unit) to see the effectiveness of such in execution.

Should the tech prove highly effective, the Corpus will likely start converting their ship shielding to this technology (maybe even inspiring future events like the balor threats from the grineer).

 

They are a fun unit in my opinion, becuse you actually have to think about how you fight against them.  Sure they are good at what they are designed for but have some major weaknesses as well (something that cant be said about many other units in the game).  That doesn't mean they dont need a few tweaks (though not the heavy tweaks many sugest that will just trivialise them), but lets face it, most enemies could use tweaking.

 

Their biggest threat is they actually use some form of effective 'teamwork'.  Something that players have actually had the cornerstone on for a very long time.

[shut]

If they are gonna keep nullifiers in game then they shouldn't have any weapons

 

This. Holy crap, this so much.

In games, it's normal to fight enemies that are tanky, enemies that can recover, enemies designed to counter your favourite trump cards, enemies that can one-shot you the moment they set eyes on you, etc.. But all at once, in a common unit? Who thought this was a good idea?

 

I think that if the bandaid bubbles must stay in the game (as opposed to, you know, properly adjusting the ability/energy system so that it we can't just trivialize everything by mashing buttons), then Nullifiers the shield-bearers and Nullifiers the godly snipers should be split into two separate enemies. That, or at the very least, give Nullifiers no-splash variants of Opticors instead of their Lankas so we can actually see where they're aiming and properly time our dodges.

[nekrojiji]

They're a stupid, bandaid enemy. DE just doesn't have the guts to start balancing abilities, so apparently every faction needs power immune enemies now.

And corrupted nullifiers were just a slap in the face. Let's screw logic and our closest thing to endgame at the same time! Brilliant idea!

Giving that you, and a lot of others like you, are so anoyed by this enemy means that it's not a "bandaid enemy". This enemy is an inconvenience only because you actualy need to deal with this enemy before spaming 4ths.

Edited April 21, 2015 by [DE]Drew
edited to comply with the community rules

[shut]

Giving that you, and a lot of others like you, are so anoyed by this enemy means that it's not a "bandaid enemy". This enemy is an inconvenience only because you actualy need to deal with this enemy before spaming 4ths like an idiot.

 

Did you read more than the first five words of his post? The issue is that abilities themselves make the game too easy and DE just implements anti-ability bubbles instead of actually fixing the root of the problem.

[nekrojiji]

Did you read more than the first five words of his post? The issue is that abilities themselves make the game too easy and DE just implements anti-ability bubbles instead of actually fixing the root of the problem.

 

yes .... I read that .... and I'm ok with it ....just because it anoyes the hell out of you people ...... the frames I play have no problem with nullifiers.

[Ryusuta]

You know... the funny thing about all the thread about Nullifiers is... I actually never minded them at all.

If I were to nerf/remove one mob enemy in the game, it would be Tar Mutilists. They're freaking everywhere and their slowdown is just ridiculous.