How About We Nerf Corrosive Projection?

[Kletse]

I'm reading this:

After hundreds and hundreds of hours, I'm done with 40+ minutes void runs. And i sold all my spare CP's. And I want everyone else to stop playing 40+ minutes too.

[DoomFruit]

How about no.

[Fifield]

We've all popped high-level Bombard eximus units into the Simalcrum, but have you done the same with Corpus and Infested? Did you notice how much less tanky everything was compared to the Grineer?

How is that a problem?

 

It's not ideal but unless the Void remake means we can farm eg Loki Systems from pure Corpus or Infested planets, it's never likely to come up.

[Fifield]

Except Corrosive Projection doesn't 'encourage' players to go to 60+. It doesn't encourage anything.

 

Actually it does, in combination with players' drives for sense of achievement and efficiency.  Enabling is the wrong word because it's possible to go to 60 waves with 3 CP and no doubt you can still go for 2 hours in T4S.

 

You don't even understand why plat's relevant, do you? The only way to get platinum is if someone at some point trades real money for it. To do so, the game has to encourage people to buy platinum. The only reason you have this much platinum from 'just playing the game' is because people found the game fun enough to pay real money for ingame currency, which your suggestions aren't likely to encourage and if anything discourage.

 

Wrong again.  By reducing the incentive to go to 60+, missions get more fun ergo more people play.  

Thanks for making my point for me.  Indeed, since your argument (incorrectly) asserts that nerfing CP will necessarily make top end gear harder to get, that too might encourage more people to buy their gear.

 

Lastly, whilst my number of plat is related to the amount bought, the value of my plat is not.  If only half the plat had been bought, I'd still have 1700 but it would have much the same purchasing power when trading with players as 3400 does now.

Learn the difference between cash and wealth.

 

If DE wanted to increase T4 key drops they would have done so by now.

 

This is possibly your most stupid comment so far.  The fact that they haven't without making T4 endless shorter than it is... is irrelevant to whether they might want to do it in combination with making T4 endless shorter.

 

In fact, changing nothing about corrosive projection and increasing key accessibility would do far more to encourage people to do 20 minute T4S missions, 20 wave T4Ds, and 4 wave T4Is.

 

But since I suggested only increase key drops with nerfing Corrosive Projection, your point is tediously irrelevant once again.

[(PSN)VariantX7]

The only reason why CP is used to the extent it is because its the only real, hard counter to grineer's explosive armor scaling. Its a broken thing that counters an even more broken thing. Given the fact that it gets to the point where it could potentially take hundreds of bullets to kill them while it only takes 1 or 2 for them to drop you, its fair. If the scaling wasn't as bad as it is then you'd see people bring other things in. 

Edited April 21, 2015 by (PS4)VariantX7

[Fifield]

Doubt it ^^.

Corrosive would still be superior to everything else if you're taking on level 80+ Grineer/Void.

 

I've yet to see a coherent argument as to why CP shouldn't be nerfed.  It would happen in conjunction with increased T4 key drops.  This would make endless missions shorter in the process -- which is what most players seem to want.  It would also encourage aura variety.

[Tsukinoki]

It would happen in conjunction with increased T4 key drops. 

Why do you keep saying that like its a guarantee?

Why do you assume so heavily that if they nerf CP then they will increase T4 key drops?

Stop trying to speak for DE and constantly claim "But they will increase T4 key drop rates!!!!" like its a given fact when that is far from the truth.  It's your assumption and in all likelihood completely wrong.

And why do you keep assuming that everyone likes being forced out of the void due to ridiculous scaling at 40 minutes?

Also, its not just the rarity of T4 keys that keeps people in for 1+ hours.  Its the fact that the item they want drops so rarely (some with less than 5% drop rate) that it saves on quite a large number of keys if you can get 3 or 4 chances at the item instead of just 1 or 2.

Also tell me:

What do you have against people going longer than 40 minutes?

Simply because you dont like it and you don't like it when you get in a squad and they want to go an hour or more and you didn't bother asking how long they want to go before hand?

What do you have against the one thing that levels out the enemy scaling and allows us to go longer than 40 minutes?

[Fifield]

Why do you assume so heavily that if they nerf CP then they will increase T4 key drops?

 

I don't.  I'm just asking if there's any objection if they do.

 

And why do you keep assuming that everyone likes being forced out of the void due to ridiculous scaling at 40 minutes?

 

As I've demonstrated twice now, most players apparently want missions to last 40 mins or less.  The ridiculous thing is being compelled to do missions longer than 40 mins when your team changes their mind (it has happened to me twice now).

What do you have against most players ie those who don't want to be compelled to go over 40 mins?  What do you have against making endless missions shorter?  What do you have against making other auras more viable? << note this kind of rhetoric isn't helpful.

Edited April 21, 2015 by Fifield

[DoomFruit]

I've yet to see a coherent argument as to why CP shouldn't be nerfed.  It would happen in conjunction with increased T4 key drops.  This would make endless missions shorter in the process -- which is what most players seem to want.  It would also encourage aura variety.

I've yet to see a coherent argument as to why it *should* be nerfed.

The correct approach is not to nerf it, it's to make corrosive projection un-necessary. Stick a very hard cap on armour scaling. THEN you can consider nerfing it. Do NOT do it the other way around.

(and apologies for the constant   - the forum software is very strange)

[inappropriatename5818]

I've yet to see a coherent argument as to why it *should* be nerfed.

The correct approach is not to nerf it, it's to make corrosive projection un-necessary. Stick a very hard cap on armour scaling. THEN you can consider nerfing it. Do NOT do it the other way around.

(and apologies for the constant   - the forum software is very strange)

 

 

I stated several times why it should be nerfed. It goes to 100%. Nothing in a balanced game should ever go to 100%    

 

It should be nerfed because like I said dozens of times already, it breaks the game. It makes Damage 2.0 irrelevant, it makes enemy variety irrelevant, it makes other aura mods irrelevant. How do you people not see the problem with this? Give me one good argument why we should be allowed to bypass half of the game's content like that? Because an enemy in a huge armoured suit has *gasp* armor?   

 

It makes no sense from a logical standpoint and makes the game very imbalanced and also difficult to balance.   

 

I'll try to make a refference here. DE constructed a maze with varied obstacles, and items you can equip to overcome the obstacles you chose to overcome, while there are diminishing effects on other obstacles. They tried to create a balanced maze for us to enjoy. Then they gave us an item that teleports us to the end of the maze and now everyone is so spoiled by that item, there's an uproar as soon as someone points out that the teleport is imbalanced and makes the whole maze useless when you can just bypass it.   

 

Most of the people that reply didn't even read my OP and it's very clear they didn't. I never argue enemy scaling and how long you should or shouldn't be able to stay in your endless missions. I focussed on purely Corrosive Projection and how it is imbalanced, which I also explained several times and have yet to get a good argument of why we should be able to bypass half the content other than "how about no" and "OP armor, need CP".   

 

Yes the game needs heavy balancing in enemy scaling, a lot of enemies need nerfs/reworks, yes we need more keys and better rewards, yes RNG is a *****, but you cannot deny that ignoring half the content for equipping a mod is balanced.

[Deathman_Kenshi]

Remove armor scaling from enemies (89% at 40 mins of T3/4 with tens of thousands hp  yea totally fun to play against) and than we can remove corosive from game altogether

Edited April 21, 2015 by Deathman_Kenshi

[LazyKnight]

I stated several times why it should be nerfed. It goes to 100%. Nothing in a balanced game should ever go to 100%    

There is no way CP can exist in a game where armor scales exponential (benefit of the aura scales with it). Even if DE capped CP at 50% total for a party, it would still be by far the best mod aura to use against level +80s.  If I am wrong about level 80s just get to level 100 and the scaling will make my statement correct. Armor scales so fast after level 60, that all other auras are pointless.

 

CP lowers the Ehp by a rather huge value for a level 80 heavy gunner. There is no other aura even remotely as good as something that lowers an NPC's ehp health pool down from around 402k with armor, to 23k with CP x4.

 

edit:math typo

Edited April 22, 2015 by LazyKnight

[d_nlo]

"(...) Not all enemies possess armor: Warframes, most bosses, and all Grineer do, but normal Corpus and Infested enemies do not have any. (...)" -Warframe Wikia.

[Fifield]

Even if DE capped CP at 50% total for a party, it would still be by far the best mod aura to use against level +80s.  If I am wrong about level 80s just get to level 100 and the scaling will make my statement correct. Armor scales so fast after level 60, that all other auras are pointless.

 

I'm not sure if your statement is true but the effects would be thus:

1. 2 players take CP, 2 players (2-6 for Raids) take other auras.  Aura diversity = good.

2. At 50% cap, getting to 60 waves becomes really hard.  Almost everyone will stop at 40.  This is why I suggested 75% without affirming it as the best solution.  T4S will likewise end sooner.  Most players want shorter endless missions.

3. Players will experience a much sharper scaling of enemies in endless missions.

4. Ash will get picked more.

#3 is the key issue in my opinion.  I'm not sure I'd want much faster scaling.  I'd prefer T4 start off with level 80 enemies and keep existing scaling.

[(PSN)KioussisZ]

...love the arguments xD Armor scaling will never be fixed if they dont fix corrosive and corrosive never fixed if they dont fix armor scaling ...

 

 

Need corrosive projection cause how would we survive the high armor ---> if players are beating the armor there is no reason to fix it --> if the armor is there then we need corrosive projection ...

 

Trust me if we lost cp then DE would have to do something over the player backlash , as it is most ppl just say use cp and move on ... not really any drive for DE to completely rework the armor system.

 

That said, there are a lot of things i would rather de spend time on than ensuring i can go hours in t4 with one key (hint we are not actually suppose to be able to thats why the armor scales so much , we are suppose to get loot leave and use another key due to difficulty getting too high with the 1 shot KO from enemies and the clip devouring armor, suppose to have to grind keys while grinding parts making them rarer)

Edited April 21, 2015 by (PS4)KioussisZ

[LazyKnight]

I'm not sure if your statement is true but the effects would be thus:

1. 2 players take CP, 2 players (2-6 for Raids) take other auras.  Aura diversity = good.

2. At 50% cap, getting to 60 waves becomes really hard.  Almost everyone will stop at 40.  This is why I suggested 75% without affirming it as the best solution.  T4S will likewise end sooner.  Most players want shorter endless missions.

3. Players will experience a much sharper scaling of enemies in endless missions.

4. Ash will get picked more.

#3 is the key issue in my opinion.  I'm not sure I'd want much faster scaling.  I'd prefer T4 start off with level 80 enemies and keep existing scaling.

I know the causality of my statement and about how Armor scales.

 

Capping it at 50% would make people hit a wall a level 90-100 for heavy units. Capping it at 75% would make the wall around level 140. Going to 140 is so far past the point where they just need to sneeze to kill a player.

 

1) That's your opinion. It still leaves 2 slots mandated for 2 CP. Diversity will just means energy siphon or rifle amp, there is always an order of value, and nerfing one will just roll people down the list. 

 

2) It your opinion that people want shorter missions and that's a good thing. I could care less if people want to waste a day in a single mission. If you want shorter mission the rewards for the mission needs to be addressed, not the methodology of the grind. Running the same mission 4 times is no more efficient that staying in the same mission.

 

3) Not really. It would still make up to level 100 fairly easy, and only people going past 130 would notice the wall if capped at 75%.Plot armor scaling with 75% off of base in a graph if you think I am wrong.

 

4). Doubt it, highly doubt it. 

Edited April 21, 2015 by LazyKnight

[inappropriatename5818]

There is no way CP can exist in a game where armor scales exponential (benefit of the aura scales with it). Even if DE capped CP at 50% total for a party, it would still be by far the best mod aura to use against level +80s.  If I am wrong about level 80s just get to level 100 and the scaling will make my statement correct. Armor scales so fast after level 60, that all other auras are pointless.

 

CP lowers the Ehp by a rather huge value for a level 80 heavy gunner. There is no other aura even remotely as good as something that lowers an NPC's ehp health pool down from around 370k with armor, to 23k with CP x4.

 

That is true, but if it worked like that it would be really strong, but at least it wouldn't allow us to bypass most of the content/difficulty. Armor reduction/penetration is fine, as long as it doesn't completely rule it out of the game.   

It would still probably be used a lot for late game, but it wouldn't be broken like it is now.

[LazyKnight]

It would still probably be used a lot for late game, but it wouldn't be broken like it is now.

I expect if DE does change CP they will destroy it, yet leave armor scaling as is. I should expect to be flamed for having it on record, that I think it's overpowered for raids and high level alerts. Something as powerful as CP should not exist, because the difference between using x3-x4 and not using it at +80 is rather extreme.

 

That Phoenix alert, along with the raids, higher NPC level is just making CPx4 more obviously broken. DE put CP in as a band-aid for people that were doing unsupported content back when there was no supported game-play that needed it. Now that content is in the range of level +80 it is no longer something that can be ignored. 

 

If DE wants to balance the raids, then they have to assume that a group is using CPx4. This will lead to someone at DE's balancing discussion coming up with the idea of giving NPC a flat health modifier, resulting in CP being even more mandatory than it is now.

Edited April 21, 2015 by LazyKnight

[Tails-san]

No. Nerf Armor scaling instead.

 

 

Corrosive projection isn't overpowered, enemy armor is. Corrosive projection just seems so OP because it hard counters something that is OP.

[Cerenax]

Nerf the OP enemy armor instead and then CP will be balanced.

[inappropriatename5818]

No. Nerf Armor scaling instead.

 

 

Corrosive projection isn't overpowered, enemy armor is. Corrosive projection just seems so OP because it hard counters something that is OP.

 

They can change armor all they want, as long as CP stays the way it is it will always be not only overpowered, but blatantly BROKEN. There's no point even caring about armor types and amounts if you can just bypass it completely.  

That's not how a balanced game works. By that logic a weapon that ignored armor wouldn't be OP and we all know how Acrid was before damage 2.0.   

We're basically have old acrid on all weapons now, because a mod is broken.

[(PSN)Pengu_Imperialus]

They can change armor all they want, as long as CP stays the way it is it will always be not only overpowered, but blatantly BROKEN. There's no point even caring about armor types and amounts if you can just bypass it completely.  

That's not how a balanced game works. By that logic a weapon that ignored armor wouldn't be OP and we all know how Acrid was before damage 2.0.   

We're basically have old acrid on all weapons now, because a mod is broken.

in T4 the enemies don't even get hard till 35 minutes W/o CP, so I can only imagine people who say CP is a must have are going to 60, and ya know what that is, completely optional.  There are no additional prizes, and it should be just for goofs.  So if they nerf CP I can tell you I probably wouldn't notice. 

 

And before I get flamed, I'm not saying you shouldn't be able to go as hard or as far as you want.  I'm saying that from a game design standpoint I'm completely indifferent to scaling in an Endless mission.  It's bonus content, and doesn't stop anyone from getting every item in the game.  If you can't go past 40 minutes you still can get every single thing the game has to offer. 

[(PSN)Pengu_Imperialus]

Okay, so I realized I didn't give any feedback in that last feedback post, just argued a bit.  So this is what I would do:

 

Please note this isn't to address the "armor scaling" issue which is actually seperate from auras...

 

Auras only stack twice, however each individual aura's effectiveness is increased.

E siphon I believe gives 0.6 energy a tic right now, it'd be raised to 1.0. 

CP raised to 45%

etc.

So a 4 man squad could run say 2 cp for a 90% armor reduction and 2 E siphons for a 2.0 tic energy bump.

 

8 man squads could run 4 different aura types and get real benefits from them.

 

It would not be as effective as the old 4x CP but it would allow for 4 and 8 man teams to mix and match what they feel is the best and allow for better group dynamics In addition to giving a bump to our often forgotten solo friends.

[taiiat]

PS. DE fix your quoting so I don't have to reply 3x.

boy have i got a thread for you.

No, they don't. Enemy scaling is linear, it just feels exponential.

here's a couple charts to explain it to you. the Level number may go up at a consistent rate, but that's not what people are talking about.

i see someone else already posted a couple, one of mine differs however, as it is easier to see the increase.

i'm sure you'll still think there's no problem, but Armor is dozens and dozens of times more effective than Health or Shields COMBINED. an Enemy that had 500 Health and 10,000 Armor would be much, much harder to Kill than an Enemy with 5000 Health and 5000 Shields. ofcourse, in the game, it's more likely to see an Enemy that has ~5000 Health and ~5000 Armor to go with it, which is even more durable than either example used.

and well within the balance scope of the game, an Enemy at ~Lv40 often has ~2000 Armor, which is about your Damage / 7.75.

if you can't see a problem there, then i can't take you seriously.

How about buff the anti-sheild counterpart

you can already remove 96% of the Shields.

besides, Shields are crap. they're not a problem. Shields don't protect Enemies well whatsoever. their own flesh that the Shield is covering protects them from death more than the Shield does.

T4 keys are farmable and I've already said drop rates could be increased -- so that point was irrelevant before you even made it.

but your point was irrelevant because that won't happen. if you knew how anything worked around here, and how to run a business, you'd know that that won't happen just because of that one thing. there's a business to run.

How is that a problem?

because other Enemy Types exist in the game.

i see i can't take you seriously now. so forget it.

Players will experience a much sharper scaling of enemies

FTFY

Armored Enemies become significantly harder to Kill than other Factions without Armor much earlier than Endless Missions. you can already easily see it occurring in the Lv25-30 Range.

wait, why am i even replying to you. you just don't get it. but you haven't run a business, Developed games, had to balance a checkbook, had to balance different trend formulas, Et Cetera, apparently. because all of those things should give you context to the issues at hand. since you can't even acknowledge the issues...

if this was a game where you only fought Grineer and Corrupted, then it wouldn't matter. but it isn't.

[(PSN)DanteVincent]

How about no?

Now, its a problem because enemy armor scaling is a problem, so fix first the armor, then the cp, then the world.

Also its useles on anyting non-grinier/void, so i think its fine as it is.

This guys speaks undeniable truth.

 

Armor is broken in the first place, it's because of stupid ideas like TC's that we get band aid treatment after band aid treatment.

 

Either fix, tweak, revamp, whatever verb suits it the whole godam.ned thing, or leave it alone.