How About We Nerf Corrosive Projection?

[DSpite]

If a four man team can coordinate to get rid of armor, then they deserve it.

 

Coordination implies a team working together, like attacking a target from multiple flanks in order to maximize firepower on weak points, when say, it's heavily protected mainly in the front.

 

Team Coordination is not "lets all wear the same color pants" and the target magically has no protection.

[BowboyBeemboop]

lol @ everyone bringing in armor scalings.

 

The reason you don't bring armor scaling into the argument is because when you have 4 CPs stacked, that's more than 100% armor reduction aka enemies have 0 armor. Zero. 0. None. No armor. They're naked. There's nothing to protect them from damage. Even if the enemy had over 9000 armor, 4 CPs completely negates that and brings it down to, guess what! 0 ARMOR. Armor scaling is completely out of the argument.

 

IMO, the aura isn't the issue (as someone has addressed), it's how auras stack.

 

All those thoughts considered at once, I have a more elegant way to fix ALL of these things:

Make stacking aura bonuses have diminishing returns!

Say, for each additional aura of the same type, its added bonus gets halfed. This means that you can never get more than DOUBLE the amount of the basevalue. Take Corrosive Projection for example with its 30% basevalue. Next stack gives 15%. And the next 7.5%. And the next 3.75%. All together would be 56,25% armor reduction. With this system, no matter how many players would be allowed in a mission in the future, it can NEVER reach 60%, the doubled basevalue!

AURA STACKING FIXED FOR ALL FUTURE!

 

^ This. But maybe not halved when stacked but reduced effectiveness by 30% (CP's reduction value).

 

So each stack will be 30% less effective. You still won't be able to hit 100% armor reduction BUT you'll still have a ton of armor shredded.

[Phoenix86]

How about no?

Now, its a problem because enemy armor scaling is a problem, so fix first the armor, then the cp, then the world.

Also its useles on anyting non-grinier/void, so i think its fine as it is.

 

Yup, the need of 4*CP is a symptome, not the desease (like Vivergate and the grind)

 

Fix armor' scaling = 4*CP problem solved

[nekrojiji]

hasn't this allready been nerfed?!

[letir]

lol @ everyone bringing in armor scalings.

 

The reason you don't bring armor scaling into the argument is because when you have 4 CPs stacked, that's more than 100% armor reduction aka enemies have 0 armor. Zero. 0. None. No armor. They're naked. There's nothing to protect them from damage. Even if the enemy had over 9000 armor, 4 CPs completely negates that and brings it down to, guess what! 0 ARMOR. Armor scaling is completely out of the argument.

Armor scaling is the root of the problem. It always was, even with Damage 1.0.

[nekrojiji]

Nerf everything.

 

We shouldn't even use warframes, we'll play as syndicate agents and only use the Braton.

shouldn't we!?

[Fifield]

This thread has gotten long enough that nobody's bothering to read it any more.

Enemies should be super tanky an hour into a mission.  How else are they going to get a chance to force you to leave when they're disarmed/slowed etc?  Ideally, this should happen earlier, because most people want shorter missions.

DE have a mathematical formula for armor scaling that affects every planet from Earth upwards.  Are Grineer missions inherently harder than Corpus or Infested?  No.  I'd say they're easier.

Making any changes to CP, armor or corrosive damage is a mess of dependencies.  Putting a cap on armor itself would create a kinked difficulty scaling curve.  If that's put in at the right point so that difficulty quickly ramps up then increases at a slower pace, that might work, but only if DE find a way to prevent excessive camping.

Likewise, capping at 90% or 60% might work (corrosive damage will still kill grineer fairly quickly).

Edited April 22, 2015 by Fifield

[Tsukinoki]

lol @ everyone bringing in armor scalings.

 

The reason you don't bring armor scaling into the argument is because when you have 4 CPs stacked, that's more than 100% armor reduction aka enemies have 0 armor. Zero. 0. None. No armor. They're naked. There's nothing to protect them from damage. Even if the enemy had over 9000 armor, 4 CPs completely negates that and brings it down to, guess what! 0 ARMOR. Armor scaling is completely out of the argument..

We bring up armor scaling as the reason we equip 4 CPs.

If armor didn't scale like it does we wouldn't need to bring it to play at high levels.

This is similar to the issue that was in Damage 1.0: The enemy armor scaling was absurd and the only way around it was armor ignore weapons.

So if your weapon didn't completely ignore armor it was largely trash.

DE saw that was bad and we moved to Damage 2.0 where only Grineer and some Corrupted have armor and there are ways to deal bonus damage against armor and more ways to ignore it (CP being the main one).

The problem remains that DE didn't really fix the armor scaling issue at all.  They just pushed it onto 2 factions instead of all factions ending up with ridiculous armor.

Because of that people are still using the only effective way to not get 99% of their damage on their weapons just ignored: by ignoring the armor all together with 4 CPs.

The problem is that DE never really made armor scale reasonably.  Its scaling is still absurd with how it affects enemy EHP.  If it wasn't that absurd people wouldn't need to bring CPs.

 

 

because most people want shorter missions.

DE have a mathematical formula for armor scaling that affects every planet from Earth upwards.  Are Grineer missions inherently harder than Corpus or Infested?  No.  I'd say they're easier.

You keep saying "most people want shorter missions!!!!" and never backing that up.

YOU want shorter missions.

The vast majority of people I find in recruiting and pubbing want to go as long as possible, not ditch at 20 minutes.

Just because YOU want to only ever go to 20 minutes and it is for some reaons abhorrant to you to play longer doesn't mean that most people want it that way.

Further, corpus and infested are much easier than Grineer for a few reasons.

Chiefest among them is that they dont ignore most of my damage like a level 40 grineer does.

A level 40 heavy gunner(or bombard since they share the same armor stat) ignores 84% of all damage you deal to it.

That is insane with how it affects its EHP.

And there is honestly no reason that a level 40 enemy (which mind you is the starting level for T3/T4 missions) should ignore 84% of the damage you can deal.  Absolutely no reason at all. (Base lancers block 72% of damage by this point as well)

That is why people use CP.  Its to actually be able to deal damage to the enemies with armor.

Against corpus or infested you're still dealing all of your damage to them at level 40, so why do Grineer have to scale up massively in HP as well as cut your damage output by 84% at the same time?

Further, I can completely ignore the corpus shields with toxic damage (which I have yet to see you or the OP complain about how toxic damage ruins corpus missions....Odd how the one way to ignore armor is declared completely evil by you, but the way to completely ignore shields, and therefore most of a corpus units HP, gets a free pass for some reason...)

If you take a level 95 heavy gunner and a level 95 corpus tech, the corpus tech will always be easier to kill than the gunner unless you have stacked CP.  Its EHP is just so much lower that its absurdly easy to kill them.

And that is the crux of the problem: Grineer EHP scales so absurdly fast because of armor scaling ontop of health scaling.  None of the other factions scale anywhere near as fast in EHP and therefore are much easier to fight at all levels of play.

Edited April 22, 2015 by Tsukinoki

[TheBrsrkr]

I don't understand the OP's position on mission length. If he wants to stop at 20-40 minutes, how is CP affecting that? You go as long as you want, dude. No one's stopping you.

[Dextral]

Why the hell would you nerf a mod only about 0.01% of the warframe gamers actually use. Yes its an amazing mod... but F*** lets screw over the 100 people who enjoy doing leadboard runs in void. Yeah F*** thoses people, those 100 people are A******s. lets nerf that not something like the boltor/rhino(anything else thats popular and op)


NO, JUST NO

[HurpadurpusRex]

I want to see the nessesity for corosive projection nerfed. Then I want corrosive projection brought into line.

Currently if you don't run 4 of them in T4Survival 40 min+, or in the raid, or in the latest missions they have been releasing you are going to get left behind in results when compaired to a party running them. But for the greater majority of players you simply wont be able to complete your mission.

 

Armor, teleportation, and 9999999999999 damage imune bubble shields are a poor crutch for end game content. Nerf armor, nerf teleport cools, nerf bubble shields; buff new means of generating challenge; then after all of that is complete re-ballance corrosive projection. Thats what i want.

Edited April 22, 2015 by HurpadurpusRex

[Fifield]

You keep saying "most people want shorter missions!!!!" and never backing that up.

 

Backed it up twice in this thread alone.  Here's the third time.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/418727-how-long-should-missions-last-how-difficult-should-they-be/

 

The vast majority of people I find in recruiting and pubbing want to go as long as possible, not ditch at 20 minutes.

 

Because T4 is stupidly easy and there's no challenge in getting to 20 mins.  That doesn't mean they want hour long missions.  I've already demonstrated most don't.

 

Further, corpus and infested are much easier than Grineer for a few reasons.

Chiefest among them is that they dont ignore half of my damage at level 40 like the Grineer do.

 

Only if you're too dumb to bring CP or corrosive dmg.

 

Further, I can completely ignore the corpus shields with toxic damage (which I have yet to see you or the OP complain about how toxic damage ruins corpus missions....Odd how the one way to ignore armor is declared completely evil by you, but the way to completely ignore shields, and therefore most of a corpus units HP, gets a free pass for some reason...)

 

Clearly. you don't understand toxin damage.  It does not bypass shields unless it procs.  Even then the only bit that bypass shields is a DoT over 8s.

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Damage_2.0/Toxin_Damage

 

If you take a level 95 heavy gunner and a level 95 corpus tech, the corpus tech will always be easier to kill than the gunner unless you have stacked CP.  Its EHP is just so much lower that its absurdly easy to kill them.

 

It would help if you read what I said before responding.  You even quoted me as talking about "every planet from Earth upwards."  So which planet has the level 95 enemies then?  Planetary enemies only go up to level 47.

At that level, Corpus have Nullifiers and Shield Ospreys that will massively raise Corpus EHP.  I've seen literally half a dozen QQ threads about Nullifiers over the last few months.  The Mine Ospreys will f*** you up in a tight space which Corpus tile sets tend to have.

You may have missed the giant QQ thread about Infested re: hooking, mana drain and poison attacks.

 

None of the other factions scale anywhere near as fast in EHP and therefore are much easier to fight at all levels of play.

 

You didn't notice you contradicted yourself there?

Grineer EHP only makes them super tanky around level 100.  They are balanced up until that point, and since there no Grineer only missions with level 100 enemies, it doesn't actually matter at the moment.

[Tsukinoki]

Backed it up twice in this thread alone.  Here's the third time.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/418727-how-long-should-missions-last-how-difficult-should-they-be/

 

 

That is a thread that is ONE page long.

Hardly "most" players commented in that thread, so I can't see how you can extrapolate one page of people into accounting for the majority of the player base.

You might want to check out what "most" means.

 

Clearly. you don't understand toxin damage.  It does not bypass shields unless it procs.  Even then the only bit that bypass shields is a DoT over 8s.

http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Damage_2.0/Toxin_Damage

 

 

And you are completely wrong about that.

Get a 100% toxic damage weapon.  You will kill the corpus enemies even though they will have full shields left over.

YOU need to learn what toxic damage does.

In fact, from the very page you linked to:

 

Toxin damage is also unique in that it bypassesshields and proto shields, and is able to directly affect health.

That says right there clear as day that toxic damage completely ignores shields.

Meaning it doesn't matter if an enemy has 10K shields, I can ignore it with toxic damage.

It is not just the toxic procs that ignore shields.

It is the entire damage toxic deals.

(Because if you weren't aware elemental damage is always applied, the procs just do its special effect.  It does not require a proc to deal the elemental damage)

You can easily test this out yourself: Get an embolist without elements on it and shoot a crewman in the face.  Its health will go down while its shields are completely unaffected.

 

It would help if you read what I said before responding.  You even quoted me as talking about "every planet from Earth upwards."  So which planet has the level 95 enemies then?  Planetary enemies only go up to level 47.

At that level, Corpus have Nullifiers and Shield Ospreys that will massively raise Corpus EHP.  I've seen literally half a dozen QQ threads about Nullifiers over the last few months.  The Mine Ospreys will f*** you up in a tight space which Corpus tile sets tend to have.

You may have missed the giant QQ thread about Infested re: hooking, mana drain and poison attacks.

A level 40 heavy gunner(or bombard since they share the same armor stat) ignores 84% of all damage you deal to it.

That is insane with how it affects its EHP.

And there is honestly no reason that a level 40 enemy (which mind you is the starting level for T3/T4 missions, and well within planetary mission levels) should ignore 84% of the damage you can deal.  Absolutely no reason at all. (Base lancers block 72% of damage by this point as well)

 

 

Against corpus or infested you're still dealing all of your damage to them at level 40, so why do Grineer have to scale up massively in HP as well as cut your damage output by 84% at the same time?

So within the planatary nodes you will have enemies, the common ones for grineer mind you, ignoring 79-84% of your damage or more at the highest levels.

WIthin T3/T4 void they do that from the start.

 

 

You didn't notice you contradicted yourself there?

Grineer EHP only makes them super tanky around level 100.  They are balanced up until that point, and since there no Grineer only missions with level 100 enemies, it doesn't actually matter at the moment.

How did I contradict myself?

I stated a simple truth: that none of the other factions are as hard as grineer are at any level of play because they dont scale in armor like grineer do.

Further, see my last reply to see what a level 40 enemy does to your damage.

How is blocking 84% of all damage in a baseline common troop balanced?

So no, armor doesn't make them super tanky at only level 100+, the armor from a level 40 common grineer lancer is already way to high with a 72% damage mitigation.

Edited April 22, 2015 by Tsukinoki

[Fifield]

That is a thread that is ONE page long.

Hardly "most" players commented in that thread, so I can't see how you can extrapolate one page of people into accounting for the majority of the player base.

You might want to check out what "most" means.

 

Statistical sampling doesn't require polling everyone.

 

In fact, from the very page you linked to:

 

That says right there clear as day that toxic damage completely ignores shields.

 

Well you learn something new every day.  Gz on being right about something.

 

A level 40 heavy gunner(or bombard since they share the same armor stat) ignores 84% of all damage you deal to it.

 

As I said, only if you're too dumb to take CP or use corrosive damage.  I note you didn't quote or respond to that bit.  Why?

 

WIthin T3/T4 void they do that from the start.

So what?  T4 is still very easy and T3 stupidly so.

 

How did I contradict myself?

 

Still didn't notice??  You said:

 

None of the other factions scale anywhere near as fast in EHP and therefore are much easier to fight at all levels of play.

 

You talk about scaling up making Grineer being OP at high levels.  You then declare them OP "at all levels of play".

 

But this is all a massive sidetrack for the sake of your ego.

Armor scaling and CP have a ton of dependencies which make most of the suggestions in this thread unhelpful.  I outlined two things that might be worth trying in the comment you responded to:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/444324-how-about-we-nerf-corrosive-projection/page-7#entry4948097

[Tsukinoki]

You talk about scaling up making Grineer being OP at high levels.  You then declare them OP "at all levels of play".

No.

What I said is true: No other factions EHP scales anywhere near as fast as the Grineers do due to their armor scaling along with their health, and that makes all other factions much easier to fight.

That is simply the truth.

Grineer scaling is broken at the higher levels.  Full stop.

I never declared them OP at "all levels of play" like you seem to be reading into my statement.

I just said that their EHP scales so much faster then the rest, which is true.

That makes them harder at all levels.

Never did I say it was OP at all levels.

Please don't try to put words into my mouth.

Further, you're thread was hardly a poll and didn't have anywhere near the number of replies that is needed to be statistically accurate in any way shape or form.

Nor was it an actual poll of any sort.

So a one page thread of people agreeing with you still doesn't mean anything.

Further, the reason I am ignoring CP right now is two reasons:

1) It removes armor from the equation currently and brings grineer EHP scaling in line with the other factions (a good thing)

2) The changes you seem to push for would largely make CP useless in combatting enemy armor, without any attempt to make the grineers EHP scale in line with the other factions.

Also, unless you are bringing along a very high proc rate weapon corrosive damage is going to be slapped with the same massive reduction and deal well under the damage it would deal to a corpus or infested unit.

Lets do the math, shall we?

Say you have 100 corrosive damage on a gun.

Against a level 40 heavy gunner it would deal 175 damage before its armor reduces the damage.  After the armor is applied the damage is reduced to 28 damage.

Against a level 40 tech it would deal 50 damage to its shield and 100 damage once its shield is gone.  In both cases it deals more damage than it would to an equivalent heavy gunner, even though the heavy gunner should be weaker to the damage than the tech is.

Against a level 40 ancient it would deal 175 damage full stop.  Agaisnt a non-ancient it would deal 100 damage.

I tend to leave out procs because on the majority of guns they aren't relaible to count on procs being frequent enough.

So please, tell me how an entire faction blocking 79% and upwards of damage within the star chart is balanced properly against all of the other factions.

[Fifield]

I just said that their EHP scales so much faster then the rest, which is true.

That makes them harder at all levels.

LOL, you did it again.

No, it makes Grineer harder at level 100+.

 

So a one page thread of people agreeing with you still doesn't mean anything.

 

It means a vast amount more than your opinion. 

 

Further, the reason I am ignoring CP right now is two reasons:

1) It removes armor from the equation currently and brings grineer EHP scaling in line with the other factions (a good thing)

 

So it's stupid to ignore it.

 

2) The changes you seem to push for would largely make CP useless in combatting enemy armor, without any attempt to make the grineers EHP scale in line with the other factions.

 

Nonsense.  Moving from 0% to 10% armor isn't going to change very much except 1 or 2 players will have to mod for corrosive damage and 1 can bring a different aura.  Endless missions will get slightly more difficult and shorter -- these last two are good things.  Grineer will scale up EHP faster -- this may or may not be a good thing.

 

The scaling cap alternative changes nothing about CP.

Link to suggestions for reference: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/444324-how-about-we-nerf-corrosive-projection/page-7#entry4948097

Edited April 22, 2015 by Fifield

[inappropriatename5818]

You guys are still arguing about effective hitpoints and armor. I made this thread about Corrosive Projection and how it breaks the game and allows us to bypass half the properties of enemies in 2 out of 4 factions. It also makes damage 2.0 irrelevant, because Viral becomes be all end all and just too effective, specially if you consider what the status proc does.   

 

Forget about EHP, forget about scalings, look at what the mod does from a design standpoint and how it allows you to ignore half of the game's mechanics. Corrosive Projection is not a solution, it's a shortcut, 10 years ago something like 4x CP stack would be a cheat code in a video game, not actual mechanic.   

 

 

If you were to explain how the game (damage 2.0, armor types etc.) works and what 4xCP is to any game designer he would ask you if you're joking.   

It's not balanced, it's not healthy, it makes no sense and has no place to be in a game that wants to be taken seriously.

[Tyreuzs]

should be turned down to 25% :3

[kells_2]

Maybe 96% armour reduction? 24% Reduction x4. Just like Shield Disruption. 

Edited April 22, 2015 by kells_2

[[DE]Momaw]

PS: Still waiting for a good argument of why the mod isn't poorly designed and/or healthy for the game that isn't about armor scaling and is simply from a design standpoint.

 

I don't understand why you would need any argument other than "corrosive projection is required to fight high level armored enemies".

 

It's a bad mechanic, but so is the ludicrously steep armor scaling.  You're trying to treat them like separate issues and they aren't. If you want to talk about corrosive projection, you are talking about armor scaling, because that's the only reason anybody cares whether CP stacks or not.  Do you see players demanding entire teams use shield disruption fighting high level corpus? No. No you don't. Because it's nice but not required.

[inappropriatename5818]

 

I don't understand why you would need any argument other than "corrosive projection is required to fight high level armored enemies".

 

It's a bad mechanic, but so is the ludicrously steep armor scaling.  You're trying to treat them like separate issues and they aren't. If you want to talk about corrosive projection, you are talking about armor scaling, because that's the only reason anybody cares whether CP stacks or not.  Do you see players demanding entire teams use shield disruption fighting high level corpus? No. No you don't. Because it's nice but not required.

 

 

Because nobody fights high level Corpus.   

[timerwin63]

So, here's the thing, and I know you've mentioned it in the OP, but I feel it really does need to be mentioned. You can't suggest we get rid of CP without suggesting some kind of rework to the current armor/damage system. It's simply not viable for late game, and as soon as you stack armor on something in the current system, it gets to the point where running without at least 2x CP on a T4 level mission is practically suicide.

[Fifield]

It also makes damage 2.0 irrelevant, because Viral becomes be all end all and just too effective.

 

We know CP isn't well designed.  But Nullifiers and Bombards are literally balanced around it.

Here are many dependencies on CP:

Nerfing CP would buff Grineer and bosses, making missions harder the higher level they are, make endless mission shorter, make in-game endless mission scale faster, which damage types players bring and which weapons players bring!  They would also increase the disparity between Grineer and the other factions at high levels.

 

Nerfing armor would nerf Grineer and bosses and armor-based warframes.  For those warframes not based on armor, it would make missions easier the higher level they are, make endless missions longer and make in-game endless mission scale more slowly.  It would create a disparity between Grineer and the other factions at lower levels.

 

This is why my suggestions are designed with these dependencies in mind:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/444324-how-about-we-nerf-corrosive-projection/page-7#entry4948097

 

Lastly, without identifying these dependences in your original post, at least a quarter of the suggestions here are nonsense.

Edited April 22, 2015 by Fifield

[inappropriatename5818]

So, here's the thing, and I know you've mentioned it in the OP, but I feel it really does need to be mentioned. You can't suggest we get rid of CP without suggesting some kind of rework to the current armor/damage system. It's simply not viable for late game, and as soon as you stack armor on something in the current system, it gets to the point where running without at least 2x CP on a T4 level mission is practically suicide.

 

If we didn't get any rework the late game would just come earlier. Where does it say enemies SHOULD scale like they do with 4xCP? They obviously designed enemies so you hit a wall eventually and can't go further or else they might as well make enemies not scale and we'll just shoot vortex for a week straight.    

 

Obviously we would get some changes if they were to FIX Corrosive Projection and it can be as simple as changing the armor multiplier.   

 

Either way, Corrosive Projection stack should not work the way it does. Reducing armor is ok, even if armor penetration would make more sense, but removing armor is a whole new ballpark.   

 

People keep posting to make the game harder, but as soon as a suggestion pops up to fix the thing that breaks the game and makes it very 1 dimensional and an obvious no brainer on how to mod and play against 2 factions everyone gets upset.

[(PSN)MrNishi]

Nope.

 

How about we just fix armor scaling instead.

This is way more reasonable.

Also I would have preferred if Corrosive only removed Ferrite Armor Scaling and Magnetic could have been applied to Alloy Armor plating....

Would give Magnetic a bump for being a practical damage type...even though we have few innate Magnetic Weapons